Ask HN: How do you avoid the 9 to 5 life?

59 points by itsevrgrn ↗ HN
I am currently a first year student at university and wondering what I can do in the next few years to get a career that is not in corporate America. I know that the obvious answer is to start a startup, but wondering if you all have other unorthodox jobs.

My dream has always been to work as a creative. Although I am currently in the business school (parent wanted me to), I have a huge passion for user research, graphic design, and more recently web development.

Thinking about switching out of business school as I have no interest in becoming a consultant or investment banker. In all honestly I do not think I am good enough at math to switch to the engineering school and do computer science. I am taking computer science classes which I really enjoy, but I don't really want to take calculus 3 or differential equations.

Curious to hear the opinions of this community.

93 comments

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Honestly? I don't! I've done the freelance thing, I've worked for several startups, and the lack of structure got to me. Fast. I'm able to let my job be my job, and my home life be my home life. I like it. I have time for my hobbies. I can actually schedule stuff.
I joined the military for a few years after my degree because I wasn't ready for a 9 to 5 life either.
In a technical role, or as a grunt? If the former, what branch and how was it?
All roles in a modern military these days are pretty technical, even if you are an infantry soldier. There is a lot of sophisticated equipment and complicated and dangerous situations. I wouldn't call anyone a grunt.

But not a CS technical role, no. I was an officer in the Medical Corps.

It was awesome - most of my friends with normal jobs got bad graduate blues but I was active and doing things with real impact. It was exactly what I needed.

Sorry - I meant "grunt" in the sense of "POGs" / what your MOS was. Thank you for your service, especially as a corpsman.
Just start doing the stuff you want to do! If you have a project or something interesting you want to pursue, dig into what you need to make it happen. You'll learn a ton along the way and get a better understand of what you like and don't like.
That's really good advice.

One way to start: if you're taking cs classes, take programming exercises further, twist the assignment, take it to something you want to use. Make it like a game, pay special attention to graphics.

I am doing this right now, testing an idea for an app and learning how to make mobile apps in react native.
You can't (at least not in the computer/web dev field). You could work odd/not normal hours but you will still be putting in the same ~40 hours a week. That's all unless you have some kind of passive income/wealth from parents & relatives.
This is a very narrow view of the industry.

I haven't worked 'regular 9-5 hours' for any meaningful length of time (i.e. beyond a few days here or there), basically ever, and I entered the field 15 years ago.

I've worked for state & federal government departments, contract agencies, and I now work directly with clients through my company.

What is your actual issue? Is 9-5 not enough? Or is it too much? Or do you want flexible hours?
I never fit into the 9-5 or corporate life, so most of my career has been spent working for myself. The biggest challenge was being ok with not making a lot of money, and focusing more on the benefits of working for myself, from home, and the ability to set my own schedule; presently 11a-4p :-)
Business school is not just for consultants and investment bankers. It's probably the one place at a university where people get to read about different business models, so why not see if there is a type of business that suits your lifestyle requirements?
In my experience, it was mostly for future consultants and investment bankers. I'd say that's what 90% of my classmates ended up doing.
Got my bachelor's in business. For me, it was a mistake. I realized that I had no desire to do what my peers were doing, and that I was otherwise unskilled. Took a long time to build real skills in programming. Still playing catch-up.

Unless you have a specific reason for business, e.g., "I want to be a CPA" or "I want to work on Wall Street", get out. The main value of a business degree is the network you build. If you're not going to do anything that anyone else in that network is doing, then it's much less valuable to you. I also found that most business school students have a particular temperament. If you notice that you don't share that temperament, it's a good sign to switch. Don't let your parents determine your major--especially if they didn't follow that path successfully themselves.

You definitely won't learn anything in business school that helps you work outside of corporate America--it exists primarily to train middle managers.

I partially disagree. I studied CS and business as a double major. I work in software now. While it certainly wasn't as important as CS to my career, I'm glad I also did the business major.

The technical business skills don't come up much (outside of properly using terms like "gross profit" and managing my personal finances), but I'd say the main thing I learned in the business major was soft skills. Almost all the work we did was in groups. We had to give lots of presentations. We had to study business communication. I've found that these skills are very useful for distinguishing oneself from one's peers, and they apply to almost any profession.

I definitely feel what you are saying with the temperament.

Many of these students do not have an authentic interest in business. To me, business is an intellectual pursuit. I know that this sounds silly and ironic, but I enjoy following the financial markets, learning about monetary policy, testing a business idea by designing a prototype, etc.

What I was getting at in this post is that I have no desire to be a middle manager.

See my prior post but don't sell short the usefulness of that business degree. If there are aspects of it that you like, talk with your professors and see how you might best choose how to direct your course of study and electives.

I have friends that are university professors and they actually like it when students give a shit about some things and will help out. Those are your mentors. Then there are the other folks in your degree, some who might be like-minded. Find them and make friends. Those are your peers, and sometimes your (friendly) competition. That network will be invaluable outside of university, not only for any sort of deep friendships you establish but in terms of career networking.

That was exactly the attitude that led me into business school. I just discovered too late that most of business school isn't about any of that.

I highly encourage you to study those interests independently, whether you stick with business or not. You'll never have more time to spend in the library geeking out about whatever you like. It's what I miss most about university.

Try to work for a staffing agency! Once you have a sufficient portfolio / reputation you can generally choose to work when you want to.
First, learn how to do 2-hour blocks of 100% focus, non-distracted. Then, start looking for remote-only or remote-friendly companies that do interesting things. Consider also a non-remote company offering flexible working hours, e.g. instead of 9-5 having 6-2 so that you have afternoons for yourself. Start a company only if you are in the top 1% in the field or have contacts you can milk, otherwise skip this route. Web development, UX, graphics design are low-paid "blue collar" jobs, so consider it as a hobby instead. Study some recent/emerging trend like Deep Learning, AR/VR, blockchain and jump on it. Emerging trends are usually forgiving to beginners, contrary to well-established fields.
I have pretty extensive knowledge of blockchain, but I have yet to see anything where I could take advantage of that fact without making one of those ICO type companies that doesn't seem to have actual demand for their product.

VR/AR are super interesting to me, but my school has very few courses on human computer interaction, which is a shame because I find that stuff super interesting.

There's a lot of benefits to 9-5 I'm realising now I'm in my 30's, you're synchronized with most of society and for a lot of people (me included) the structure is very beneficial to your life.
Maybe you just got assimilated? I can't imagine going back to 9-5, it's a waste of day, you spend all time where there is some sunlight inside office and your free time is purely about recovering from this.
You're both right, of course.
Exactly. Most of my coworkers are very satisfied with their low-effort/low-risk jobs. I do like the stability it offers but it's so depressing selling my precious time for cash.
This is the feeling I'm getting recently too - as I grow older time seems to be getting a lot more valuable. I'm fine now but in a decade I might try something else.
If you’re not satisified in your career, the grass is always greener where you can work different hours.
I work in a 9-5 environment and am at my desk 9-5, but I don't feel like I am "wasting days". Some of that depends on the environment you put yourself in though.

I do some personal stuff during the day at the office. I end up also doing some office stuff during the evening at home. I am responsive to emails... close to 18 hours a day, but am also not inherently always "on call"... If I get to an email in my personal time, I get to it. If not, I don't, and obviously it depends on how urgent the email is.

The key thing, IMHO, is that you need to find an employer that values you, and knows you put in the amount of work that earns your paycheck. If you're earning your keep, generally an employer should be flexible with how you do it.

> close to 18 hours a day

I think that was exactly what the OP wanted to avoid.

I do not, however, work eighteen hours a day. I am reachable for eighteen hours a day. There's a significant difference.

People hoping to avoid a 9-5 block of time being locked for work, will probably end up similarly: Still needing to do about eight hours of work a day to make a living, just ideally spread out better or in a more relaxing format.

It's terrible to be reachable 18h/day. It's like those poor Amazon employees that are forced to have pager all the time with them because Bezos likes it that way. What kind of life do you have when you can't even make a trip to forest without thinking about not being reachable? No hour awake without being completely off... How is your health? How long do you think you can handle it? Any hobbies where you can make your own mark? Or just survival?
I'd much rather know about something that's about to be a problem then find out about it at 9 AM when it is a problem. I would argue staying on top of my work life throughout the day prevents stressful issues. I'm proactive instead of reactive, and when someone up the chain wants to know what's going on, the chances are, I already know, and it's already partway resolved, and those are very comforting answers to be able to give people.

I have a number of hobbies! I'm writing a home automation system, it runs in my car now as well. I play a fair number of games, am a pretty regular movie theater goer, etc. Don't mistake being reachable for being in a constant state of panic, I actually used to have a job where I'd have to duck out of a movie theater if my phone went off when I was on call, and now it's really not a big deal, I can get to it when I have a few moments.

>It's terrible to be reachable 18h/day.

This exactly. Sure I could go do the undergraduate business thing and live what many would consider a more than comfortable life making 80k a year, but most companies that I would do that for would own me and I would only ever be a pencil pusher. The problem with this, for me, is that I would not really have a life of my own.

I would argue my pets tie me down more and cause me more stress than my job. My job doesn't interfere with my ability to take trips much, but having to board my pets does.
I would say I am reachable for 24h/day, but that doesn't mean I'll start working on a problem until the start of the next 8h working period.

I might not even take your call and just assume that if it was something truly important, you'd leave a voicemail.

Don't know if that truly counts as reachable.

I would be reachable 24 hours a day if my phone could wake me up. It can't. Which is a blessing and a curse.
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If you're in your first year of university worrying about the 9-5 grind, it's your subconscious telling you to change your field of study.
Are you assuming you need calc 3 and diffEq? Most CS programs I'm aware only need calc 1 (maybe 2) and basic linear algebra. Sure if you're into cryptography in signal processing then much more math will be needed but plenty of web devs don't need much more.

Sorry I know this doesn't answer your 9 - 5 part, but don't major in business if you have no desire to do anything related to it.

UMich CS.

Calc 1, Calc 2, (Calc 3 or DiffEq), LinAlg, Discrete.

One also needs to take 2 physics courses (Mechanics and E&M) as well as a Chemistry class.

I don't think that all CS programs require this, but at my University an entry requirement to its CS program was both multi-variable calculus and advanced physics.
All that I hire from do. Multivariate calc and diff eq are important for scientific computing, which used to be a major thrust of CS.
It sounds like what you want is some combination of freelance / remote working.
I don't mean any offense since I was in a similar mindset as you going into college. A "9-5" is not a soul killer if you know you don't want to stay, nothing is forcing you to. You want to be a creative, do you know the cost of creativity in the "hierarchy" of value? It's very high, higher than a worker in corporate America. It's why everyone wants to be a creative and not a corporate worker to begin with, however it's higher risk/reward than I think you understand atm looking only at the "reward", the risks are about the same as what you fear in the 9-5 with the odds being even more stacked in your favor. Let me ask you another question, do you not "want" to take calc 3 more than you "don't" want to work a 9-5? Check your axioms.
In my experience, in programming it's not 9-5 you want to try to avoid - that's what you want to shoot for. It's 9-9 that you want to try to avoid.
Not just programming. There are many industries that feed on the young and unencumbered. I've seen it in visual effects, architecture, etc.
>It's 9-9 that you want to try to avoid.

All of us (mostly) have 8 hours work day in contract. Why should anyone of us work more? There is no such reason. So the problem is in you.

I think others asked similar questions. What is your desire and goals?

I think as a first year, it's a little too premature to make a large decision like this. Just go and have a few internships first, then see what's out there.

If you go to work for a startup, it won't be 9 to 5. It's most likely gonna be 9 to 9.

Get really good, then freelance or build your own stuff.

I think most people put in their time in the office grind before building a network and skillset, then disengage over time.

A first year student that doesn't know what they want to do with themselves? No way! /s

If you're passionate about being a developer, there's lots of ways to avoid being a cubicle drone. Whether that is just having a 9-5 job that is more casual (like at a start-up, though expect longer hours at many of them), or by freelancing/consulting.

I'd advise swapping to computer science whole hog though if you can. If you had 5-10 years experience it would matter less, but as someone that's super green having that piece of paper _will_ help you get that first dev job. "I'm not good enough at Math" is not going to make any employer want to hire you!

I see what you mean about the cs degree and I agree with you, but I don't want to whole hog on it. This would take a lot of my energy away from other things. My hope is that my taking the most useful cs classes to learn the fundamentals and pairing that with working on projects on my own (developing an app in react native right now) will help me get a dev job if I want one down the line.
“9 to 5 life” isn’t a schedule, it’s a mindset.

It’s the idea that from 9 to 5 you are like a slave and you are not living your own life, you are giving up your time to render a service for someone paying you to do it.

We can sit here and move the hands on the clock and try to make your day look more interesting in all sorts of ways, but in the end you will work those hours, all the same.

So what do you do if you don’t want that life? Find a way to get your income not from services you perform but through other means which are inherently timeless.

In the best case, what this looks like is you living your own life on your own terms while making decisions that feed income into your revenue streams whenever necessary. Before I continue, is this what you want?

Perhaps I could start working on the side as a college counselor. I am only 19, but I toured over 35 undergraduate universities and successfully applied to a top 20 school. That experience taught me a ton about how the process works and I am certain that you can "hack" the college application process.

One personality trait that has helped me in life I am extremely curious self-starter. When I want to learn something I completely immerse myself in it. I have done this a few times in my life. I did it with DJing, graphic design/ typography, finance, and more recently colleges. I think that the best way to describe this without talking to you in person is that I am able to talk about the things I am interested in such granular detail that it would raise suspicion of autism.

The reason I ask how to avoid the 9 to 5 is that many people, especially on this forum (I assume), are pulling it off. I am wondering how I can take advantage of my intense curiosity to do pull it off myself. I have 4 years to figure it out.

No one can answer this question for you. People can provide guidance on what NOT to do from their experience, but ultimately this boils down to 'how do you find a job you love.' There's a workbook out there called "Do what you are." It's a bit dated, but worth the $15.
I'd say learn to live with as few luxuries as possible in a place where the cost of living is low. Earn as much as you can, but in a way that is flexible (contracting for example). This will give you the opportunity to save and have a lot of free time.
Started my own startup. Now I have 9-9 life!