Ask HN: How can felons find programming jobs?
I've tried not disclosing it, disclosing it early, disclosing it in the middle of the interview process, and disclosing it at the end when they make me an offer. They all turn me down.
Half of them are judgmental turn-downs - they won't return my call and never get back to me, because they think poorly of me.
Half are policy - Goldman Sachs made me an offer last month, but withdrew it this morning due to their policy against hiring felons.
I only have enough money to last us through April, and that's literally because our local parish gave us a $1,000 check out of nowhere, which adds to what's left over from our tax return.
I'm a hard worker with a wife and 5 kids to support. I just need a job, but nobody will hire me due to my background. Any pointers or advice would be greatly appreciated. Especially any pointers on where to actually find a job.
Because I'm still on probation, I can't move out of state and can either work remote or local (greater Chicago area). Most of the jobs out here require 3+ years in C# which I don't have and don't feel comfortable lying about either.
For more background, the felony is from flashing someone (while drunk) who was just under 17 years old. This was the second offense (the other was years ago). They are inexcusable and disgusting offenses, but they are permanently on my background.
EDIT #1: my crime was in 4 local major newspapers, and all 4 online news articles show up when you google my name, so hiding my background is not really a possibility here. About 4 months ago, a small local software firm, which would have been an amazing job, said "I know you said you're looking for 70k, but we'd like to offer you 75k", and I asked them to give me a few days to think it over, which he was happy to do. Then they never responded to my calls after that, presumably because they found out about this.
EDIT #2: I am no longer able to reply to anyone here, since HN now says "slow down, you're posting too fast" when I try, so, um, sorry if I don't reply to you before that resets (probably tomorrow).
96 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 133 ms ] threadI don't have a record, but it's never come up nor have I been given any hint that a background check was performed.
It's like penetration testing...no matter what kind of defenses a company has built... it takes is ONE opening to own all of it.
Also look into getting your records sealed. If you situation is really as you've describe a judge may be willing to help you out here.
Also check out https://www.70millionjobs.com/
I am not advocating that you lie, deceive or hide anything. I am suggesting you establish a positive internet presence so that ugly stuff is not the only information available about you.
Vanessa Williams lost her Miss America crown to scandal over nude photos. The entire world knows that. That information never went away, yet she was eventually deemed respectable enough to do work on music for a Disney film, Pocahontas.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colors_of_the_Wind
I don't know if this is your only handle on HN or if it is a sock puppet used for talking about controversial issues, but I will suggest you abandon it after you are done responding to this discussion and establish a positive presence on the site. The fact that you have a history of arguing about sexual subjects under the handle of sexoffender looks really messed up.
It's possible that is just you being naive and dumb, but it makes me wonder what other stuff you may be doing that may be making employers think that hiring you is just a scandal waiting to happen.
Because I recognized your handle due to this bizarre choice you have made to talk about sexual subjects and parenting choices under this handle. I recall wanting to debate you and choosing to refrain because I felt like no good would come of it.
So I think you need to take a long, hard look at some of the social signalling you are doing. I will suggest therapy and journaling to sort out some of your sexual issues.
Please note, that is intended as kind and supportive. I spent plenty of time in therapy for my own sexual issues. I'm not trying to be ugly here.
Here's some bounties available in C#
https://www.bountysource.com/bounties/search?direction=desc&...
Hope this helps. There is plenty of work to be had and the avenues are wide and paved with honest wages if you advertise and remove yourself from the past and work towards the culture.
G'luck!
https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/con-jobs-inmate-entreprene...
Mind you, I did a quick search in the Chicago area for developer jobs, found a bunch of them have written n+ years of experience required. But give it a shot, and read the comment threads too. At the very least, hope it's a bit of inspiration. Good luck.
I think I have some contacts you can try out. Small companies, especially ones with minimal public interaction should be good targets.
Fair enough that he did his time, but it’s also fair not to hire him. He’s looking for a job from a business, not a charity after all.
The GGP comment speculated on the thoughts of people who didn't hire the OP.
This is an extremely tricky situation; perhaps he showed poor judgement twice in his life. Statistically, its likely he did it more often, but what do statistics matter when dealing with an actual persons life?
Just a side note, why are these felonies? Or even crimes to begin with? It’s not like you tried to force yourself on those underage girls or rape them. In Europe, there are many nude beaches where girls under 18 regularly go to with their families.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand that it’s harassment and unwanted on the part of the girls. But I am surprised that it is a felony and not a misdemeanor.
It really sucks for the OP, but I feel like he was massively screwed during trial & the legal process
We also have a problem with media / media consumer biases: the media tends to sensationalize these crimes, and outraged voters always think punishments are too light.
To put some ideological points up for consideration: from (some) feminists, exhibitionism (like other forms of sexual assault) is used by men to assert power over women and from (some) men's rights activists, the laws are harsh and broad due to pervasive discrimination against male sexuality.
Perhaps make an LLC, and use your middle name in place of your last name when communicating with people? Or legally change your last name? That way they pay you as a contractor, with checks to your business, and no one is the wiser. You are in survival mode now, I wouldn't let pride keep you from changing your name.
I think there are laws (in most states?) against changing your name if you're a registered sex offender. But trying to get a job using a middle name instead of a first/last name is a decent idea.
Of course, you’re technically correct (the best kind!), but it was a thought I felt like riffing on for a moment.
The American Criminal Justice system is fucked up in many ways, specifically in the ease with which minorities are put through it. But the concept of a rules based society is definitely one that I agree with.
If I'm trying to keep it secret, I have all this stress of wondering who knows, lying about it, etc. And that's bad for me because I'm already in a stressful situation.
Putting it out there saved me a lot of time with companies/HR departments by filtering out the haters in the first step. I didn't have to bite my nails wondering what their reaction to the background check would be.
I put my record on the bottom of my resume. My father told me I would never get a job with that, but he was wrong. I landed one two weeks after my release.
I asked the guy who interviewed (and hired) me if he had read about my criminal history on my resume, and he said, "Yeah, that's not a problem. My cousin's been in and out of jail all his life."
* Check out the porn industry. They are always pushing boundaries of what is possible with tech and felons frequently work in the industry.
* Military service is a "customary shortcut to public affirmation". It may be possible to enlist in some branch somewhere and request a waiver for your felony.
* Improve your portfolio. If you are a good enough developer, people will overlook certain things.
* Find a desperate entrepreneur who will pay you the bare minimum cash to support your family, along with some equity.
* Start learning C#, it's actually a great language, loved by man.
In fact, as a felon he probably can't go to Canada at all.
Join the military under any form of "signal" branch MOS. All enlisted signal jobs require a secret security clearance and you might be able to get that directly depending upon what you were convicted of. Once you have been in for a bit and become an NCO you have some internal credibility to possibly transition to military intelligence or become a signal warrant officer of which both require a top secret clearance.
The trick to passing a security check in the military is disclosure. Be up front about your prior legal troubles with the investigating authority and don't hide anything. This is typically a recipe for immediate failure in the civilian world, but the military has greater resources to further investigate these issues and make more thorough determinations.
Once you hold a TS/SCI for a couple of years you can put that on a resume when you are ready to reenter the civilian corporate world. When people see active "Top Secret / Secure Compartmentalized Information" clearance on a resume they immediately think trustworthy despite that a background check will ultimately identify your prior felony. You are vetted, at great expense, by an external federal agency.
My ex was career army and did a stint as a military recruiter. At that time, you could not join if you already had more than 2 children. OP states he has a wife and 5 kids. There are also age limits and other automatic bars.
All such details vary from one service to another. IIRC, you cannot join the army infantry with flat feet, but the navy has no problem with this.
If the OP (or anyone) is interested in the military option, they should do a quick Google or make a few phone calls to the nearest recruiting office to check on such details. I would hate to see them waste a whole lot of time on something only to learn it is a dead end for them.
How do you do this? Isn't implying that you'll work for a low salary a big red flag?
I see here on HN that some companies won't consider older workers because of the idea that they demand a lot of money, but I have no idea how to show that I am an exception to this stereotype. I sometimes tell recruiters etc. that I'm more interested in good working conditions or a convenient location than salary, which is true, but that's as far as I dare go.
First of all take ANY job you can get - this means starbucks is on the table - Get back to work, even part time.
Second if you have skills then start putting them to use - open source, build your own thing what ever. At least 2-3 hours a day of WORK. Google up non profits that help fellons find jobs and ask them if they can use your services as a volunteer. You never know where opportunity will come from.
Third, start a blog. Tell your story, put your real name on it. It is compelling and your looking to make a change. Show your work, name the companies that reject you - you have probably given out enough info for me to find out who you are any way just own it.
My last hint - lots of "temp agencys" and "placement agencies" will happily take you on as someone they can place. Most of them don't care if you were a rapist or a murder - it wasn't a financial crime so your fairly safe to employ. I once worked at one and they ran background checks for finance ONLY - everything else was kosher.
For years there was "no value" in discussing salary... but companies were allowed to ask you "how much did you make at your last job".
So we have/had a system that is "pro company" and "anti-worker" that took a LONG time to change and let a lot of things that we probably always would have been upset about go on.
There is value in publicly naming the company that didn't hire him. It stops someone else in his position from wasting their time. The only entity that benefits from him NOT disclosing the policy is the hiring company.
It "might" make a company look bad if it got out that they DO or DONT hire people who were once criminals - and then we get into a larger set of questions.
Is their policy a stealth racial bias? Is the purpose of the justice system to lock people up and then create social shunning or reform?
This is another case where tradition and the status quo does not make sense.
OP literally has nothing to loose and everything to gain by being honest about his situation - the knowledge is already public and working against him.
Also thank you for sharing - happy for the dialog!
If one believes that moral conduct ought to have a relationship with moral results, then one must also coldly ask what sort of results one truly expects from this.
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
-- Martin Niemöller
If those who have these issues don't stand up and speak (and to a larger audience than HN) how are they going to get the attention for us to speak up for them? OP has been punished, he should speak out that he is CONTINUING to be punishes, he IS a sacrifice.
If you were a minority or a woman 10 years ago, even 2 years ago the policy of "don't speak up" was more or less there to maintain the status quo.
Here is an individual who, because he has no privacy, is disqualified from jobs. Note that the merits of his crime and weather or not he should have privacy because of it are another matter.
But a company - you should not talk about them - they have a better right to privacy than OP or any one else in this thread.
Something is very wrong here. This isn't a trade secrete were discussing it is a corporate policy one that could be made clear and public but it isn't.
Also agree w/the parent comment wholeheartedly.
If you have a history of getting drunk enough to show terrible judgement but haven't stopped drinking, then you're still showing terrible judgement.
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Well, stay away from financial and medical - both are going to have background check requirements that may also explicitly bar felons. Anything handling cash or card payments is likely also out based on PCI.
I think the two things I'm going to suggest are setting up a company or at least a DBA (so searches are on the company name not yours) and focusing on things you can do that are outside company networks. Assuming you have technical skills appropriate to HN and some level of design skills, website development may be a place to start. Since you're in Chicago, I'd consider going to WordCamp Chicago in April - it's cheap and informative, even if you start out with static site generators and not WordPress (which has concerns of its own like needing updates and maintenance).
https://pigeonly.com/about/#careers
Any chance your former employer would take you back on a reduced salary, while you work on your portfolio/freelancing/rehabilitating your record?
Why don't you have references?
I think long term you should focus on changing your name and getting a good profile and work history on UpWork. This could lead to a steady job, and no one will ever check your background for freelance jobs.
Why was the crime of flashing a 17 year old published in 4 major newspapers?
In the meantime, just get whatever work you can.
That is punitive justice and it doesn’t work. In fact, I would posit that it increases recidivism. If criminals aren’t offered a chance at a stable life, why should they even try resolving their issues?
In this case it sounds like mental illness as opposed to hardened criminal to me.
>Because I'm still on probation, I can't move out of state
This may not be true. I'm on Federal probation, not state, so it may be different, but you can have your probation transferred to another state. The receiving state must agree to accept you, which may be an issue as a sex offender. Best of luck.
During my currently fruitless job search I've kept my PO in the loop about jobs/locations that could prove fruitful. He and his supervisor have both communicated to me that getting courtesy supervision and then a transfer should not be an issue in my case. They both said that already having a job in the receiving district goes a long way to getting a transfer, since you'll be stable there.
OP is on state probation though, so his situation is different. I would advise him to speak with his probation officer about what his options are in terms of "courtesy supervision". I looked up what the Interstate Commission for Adult Offender Supervision says about sex offender transfers [0] and it seems that sex offenders have it worse than other offenders. While non-sex offender transfers are on a "shall issue" basis provided some easily fulfilled prerequisites [1] the sex-offenders are subject to a review period of a maximum of 5 days after which time the receiving state may accept/reject their transfer.
OP, talk to your probation officer about what your options are. A move out-of-state may not be out of the question.
[0] https://www.interstatecompact.org/step-by-step/chapter/3/rul...
[1] https://www.interstatecompact.org/step-by-step/chapter/3/rul...
You're not going to get a job in Chicago in software or IT unless you start your own business or work remote.
Apply at Goodwill or somewhere else known to hire non-violent, non-theft felons, to pay the short-term bills. Then you'll have to form an LLC and work through the business name. It will limit your opportunities until you can leave the area.
I'm not at all downplaying your difficulties, but it may help to know that many people without felonies on their records endure this same lack of communication from perspective employers. In some cases, it may have nothing to do with the felony.
I hope you find a great job.
My heart goes out to you brother. I can give constructive advice:
1. Set your expectations.
Many things in life now are more challenging for you. You're a second class citizen now. Expending your mental energy hating that, or feeling victimized by it, will paralyze you. Instead, spend that energy identifying your specific challenges and planning how to deal with them.
2. Expect failure and rejection. Use each one to refine your approach.
Rejection is a part of life now, but that's okay. Just like sales is a contact game, so is the job hunt. You may need to make 50x more applications than a non-felon to get serious consideration. That's not fair, but fair doesn't matter. Just make those application, and approach each one as if it matters. Use your network. Write good cover letters. Be ready to sell yourself as someone who is a better hire. Be ready to answer tough questions honestly, and with humility.
3. Recovery from a criminal conviction is a marathon, not a sprint.
While you reach for what you want to happen, you need to be willing to take whatever you can get.
Set realistic goals. Probation is HARD. It's very oppressive, but it's a necessary component of our system. You can't stay free, and improve your life, if you fail at probation. Know your conditions inside and out, better than your PO does. Never make them question your compliance or honesty. Put yourself out, to never put them out.
I wasn't able to get back into programming until I was off probation. What employer wants to be told "If you hire me, federal agents reserve the right to search your office at any time, including copying all the contents of my work computer, and all network attached data too."
4. Lay the groundwork to sell yourself.
You need to have more to offer than a college grad with a CS degree. Find, or refine, your specialty. Be spectacularly good at something specific and specialized. Be prepared to prove that value to an employer. The downtime with no job is terrible. But use it to improve your marketability. Then you can reach out to people who need that specialty. Find others with similar skills on IRC, mailing lists, boards like stackoverflow and HN. Learn to cold contact somebody and say "I see you're into $skillset, I like what you have to say on that. I work with it a lot too. Do you know anybody that's hiring with that need?" Us programmers love to make referrals... most orgs pay a big bounty for bringing in a new hire.
5. Don't give up.
Stay positive, especially when it hurts the most. For your family. For your friends, and the people around you. Don't become one of those guys who has given up, who is always full of victimization and anger. On a long enough timeline, as your trouble move further into the past, you will find more success. Give everybody a chance to treat you like a human being. Sometimes you'll be pleasantly surprised.
My background:
I dealt with a similar situation. I was convicted of a sex offense conspiracy, because some people I was associated with committed some very serious crimes. To get their prison time cut in half, they implicated several others along with them. I had a fantastic career before the 7 years in prison. I also had sensational news coverage. A slow news week, my face was on the 10pm news every day for a week. You can imagine how well that went over at the county jail.
After prison, life was HARD. Those fucking scars, man. Most people will never comprehend what you're going through, and frankly they're never going to care.
I had a similar experience with Goldman Sachs. They contacted me and asked me to interview, because they liked my hackerrank code in a few contests. I aced the phone screen. They basically demanded I fly to meet them right away. Two days later, I got a form rejection letter in E-Mail, as if I had submitted an application but was being declined for an interview.
After probation, I started seeking...
- You can still do consulting/contracting or act on behalf of your own company.
- Build website for "your company" and describe services you offering that are matching your skillset.
- You can still look for job at upwork.com (or whatever sites there are). Granted - you'll be competing with bottomfishers from developing countries - but the point is to make your expertise known. This may evolve into good business relationships down the road.
- You can still participate in contests (as a company) and build your hackerrank or whatnot. If asked to work for someone - tell them you only do consulting/projects on behalf of your own company, not as individual.
- You can still hire others as consultants to do work for you or for customers you find need your skills. Again - acting as a business, not as individual.
Being a felon has impacted my life in several ways. I'm going on almost 10 years of being labeled a felon, so I have some stories to tell as to how it's impacted my life:
I've struggled with relationships ("omg my parents Googled you"), friendships ("I googled you"), finding a place to live ("sorry, we don't accept people with a criminal history like yours"), bank accounts ("sorry, we can't give you a bank account due to your criminal history"), payment processing accounts ("sorry, we can't accept you to process payments on our platform because of your criminal history")... list goes on.
But I've never, ever had a problem finding work. Maybe it's because of how I go about finding work.
I don't work in corporate environments by choice, as I'm just a terrible fit. I've worked with headhunters without issue, and I've applied to Who is Hirings without issue. I've worked as a business entity with larger-ish companies without issue too (but they're still small enough to not be super corporate)
It's one of the first things I tell people when I wouldn't work under a registered entity: "just a heads up there is no way in hell I'll pass any sort of background check whatsoever"
Somewhat ironically, what's on Google, or any news outlet, is significantly less severe than what a thorough and complete background check will show because of how the courts proceeded (at least for me)
Would love to talk more about getting you in the right direction. Email's in my profile.