Ask HN: Non-technical employees don't get along with engineer
I'm the CTO of a small startup with 9 full time employees. We have 2.5 engineers - Me, a senior SDE hired a year ago, and a new UX designer who doubles up as a part time FrontEnd Dev. 4 non-technical employees have logged complaints that my full-stack developer is curt/cold/condescending although the designer and I get along with him just fine. I've drawn a pretty hard line in defending him thus far, but have been taking more and more fire from the CEO.
I've tried many process tweaks, 1:1 feedback, etc. Do you guys have any ideas to de-escalate or help the team get along better with each other?
57 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 107 ms ] threadThere's a lot of previous discussion you could look up about whether to tolerate "brilliant jerks" on your team. My take is we usually overestimate how brilliant they are and underestimate how toxic it is to have a jerk around.
If you can't afford to fire him, you could shield for him for a while, have all contact between him and others go through you. But that inevitably kills his ability to grow within the company, it eats up your time, and is not a sustainable situation.
Basically, either he needs to learn to interact with non-technical people (still the preferred solution, if possible), or he needs a work environment where he doesn't need to interact with non-technical people. It's up to you to decide whether your company can be that environment, and whether you want your company to be that environment.
I apologise in advance for this non-PC and possible offensive remark, but I see nice people in our company dealing with these types and it's starting to bum me out.
The obnoxious types me and colleagues have dealt with are, in _my personal opinion_, pretty obviously suffering from some type of Asperger and/or general social maladaptive malady and while they should be treated with dignity, it is not up to the rest of the company to adjust to _their_ problems.
Yet, this is exactly what is expected of healthy staff when people with, for example, Asperger join the team and I believe it is not fair and not right. If they cannot interact in a reasonably normal way, they should be let go or isolated. There is no other way.
Folks in wheelchairs have totally different, physical, problems that are way easier to deal with from the POV of a company.
Defining "reasonably normal" way of interaction is hard often to define, especially with limited understanding of all parties involved. People react differently based on their backgrounds and surroundings. Granted there are cases that can not be remedied and in those cases letting people go or isolating them might be the right thing to do.
> Folks in wheelchairs have totally different, physical, problems that are way easier to deal with from the POV of a company.
I agree that some disabilities can be easier for the company to deal with(ramps, parking, elevators, toilets etc. for wheelchair user). But even these things require to people to adapt("Why i lost my parking spot/office to a neckbeard in a wheelchair?" "Why we lost our end of the year bonus to get an ramp/elevator for one hire that can't walk like rest of us?").
Some requests are too demanding, but also some requesters are too demanding, but even then some requestees(/-ted?) are too demanding.
> Yet, this is exactly what is expected of healthy staff when people with, for example, Asperger join the team and I believe it is not fair and not right.
And yet this is what "healthy" AND "sick"(?) people must do. Asperger is a "spectrum" as a part of the "spectrum" of autism, which is within the "spectrum" of human behaivior. I belive it's not fair or right to expect everybody be like you or become like you. You have rights not to like someone, but they also have right to not like you.
IMHO it would be nice to see commenters to question more on the involved parties actions and motives. Also being involved in startup can be demanding and stressful job.
-Is the SDE's workload demanding to a degree that makes it difficult to him interact with people in verbose/"flowery"/"warm" way like those people expect? -Is the SDE not working at full capasity or competently that makes friction? Or other employees for that matter. -What kinda interactions they are having? Are they interacting in work related discussions or are they unrelated to task at hand? -Is it the case of backlash to asking/requesting something (work/information) not authorized relating to work/products? -Generational and other cultural factors in play? Are peoples expectations differing from each other in regards what they consider "reasonably normal"? -Anklebiting? Case of slowly outing someone not like them. -Is the SDE actually a problem case or other way around? -Can some employees affect others views of the situation, ballooning the situation to over the treshold of complaints? Supportive complaints (under social pressure?) against the defendant? -Politics! Do you necessarily want to talk politics(and other dividing issues) in an enviroment(like i see the USA from outside) where they can be career ending or atleast really harming to relationships?
More questions are needed to be asked and less kneejerk(?) actions taken. Based on information given in this post it's really hard to say anything definitive about the case. One might have experience where the kneejerk reaction of firing might have been the right thing and other have other kind of experiences of these situations.
It's disability not be able come to terms with other people disabilities. We need to be flexible, but not too flexible so we can still keep our heads up.
(Offtopic: How do you like my sorry aspergers behind vomiting questions which people should take into consideration? Are the questions above too insulting(not fair or right) to be taken seriously? Am I too insulting to be ...
But in hindsight, my way of dealing with him was probably more detrimental to the (very small) team as a whole, and if not for the fact that my role was more important than his, I'd probably have fired myself or at least given an ultimatum. Because in the end most of my issues with the designer did not keep me from doing my job. I just hated the guy...
While the specifics might be different in OP's case, I do now also believe that team cohesion and basic 'professionalism' is often more important than the individual quality of a misbehaving team member.
Did you try to do some team building activities with the whole group? Sometimes getting them to connect on a more personal level gets people to open up.
To me it doesn't sound like he is a problem, it's sounds like he has integrity. And that you shall not bend.
I had colleagues from all over the world and found that I generally meshed well with those which matched my attitude of calling a spade a spade, but conflicted with those which took the opposite approach. Even a (IMO) statement such as "I'm not totally on board with this idea yet - could we look into estimating the cost of this feature before we start coding?" would raise hackles.
It is my belief that there might just be some cultural sensitivity training required in OP's scenario.
I suffer from aspergers in some form or another(diagnosed by Dr.). While im usually "normally" functioning, I happen to have wierd sense of humor, lack some social skills and being too concise at times. These things crop up usually when around extrovert people(like non-tech people stereotypically are) and it can cause them to feel that I'm intentionally hostile towards them, where as it's more about me(unconsiusly) feeling outside their social wavelength. I don't want to be hostile towards others, but my capabilities for social interaction often cause friction unintentionally, and some people are more sensitive to take offense becouse of it. How people react to my actions are also really varied, biggest factor(be my speculations) being their social backgrounds(groups like family/friends/prev. workplace/school/generation/culture).
Maybe what I'm trying to say that it might not be entirely fault on the sSDE. Maybe the non-tech people haven't had experience working with someone who is less extrovert than their social group before. Too many times i have seen that introvert and socially "handicapped" people are left behind just becouse they are different.
Not every anti-social behavior is malicous or intentional. People react to different interractions differently. People can learn to accept peoples differences and live with them. Working on their work relations is a good start, since sSDE has said that he wants to make it better.
--Sorry about my (personal) ramblings and bad writing(non-english speaker)
Indefensible issues can include:
"I'm jealous."
"He's wicked smart and it makes me feel inadequate."
"He's hot. I would hit that, but I'm married and he's a coworker, so no. Now I need an excuse to hate on him and alienate him."
That last issue is one they should not admit to, you should not poke at, etc. But it also shouldn't be a reason to fire a guy. Reality: A lot of people cannot cope long term with platonically working with someone they find attractive and this is frequently resolved by one of the two changing jobs.
> 4 non-technical employees have logged complaints that my full-stack developer is curt/cold/condescending
This is really bad news actually. Find a replacement for this guy and fire him.
That the guy kisses up and craps down is a serious problem that needs to be dealt with by termination.
What is the gender of the 4 employees who have a problem with the senior SDE?
At my workplace I was the only female employee and when I ever had complaints against someone for being condescending/etc the response was similar to yours, "But I never had that experience with him. He's a nice guy."
Understand that you only see one side of your senior dev. You don't get to see how he interacts with women or other minorities.
An example I like to give is that even Senator Obama experienced people being fearful and locking their cars when he went out to the parking lot late at night. That's an experience that white people just don't have, and imagine being the only one to experience that or report that in a group of other people who have never ever been the target of such behavior. "But I never noticed it!"
If this does turn out to be the case I'd suggest you have a serious chat about diversity in your company. I ended up leaving tech due to my similar experience in my last company. Saying, "We're pretty diverse for a group of white dudes" isn't enough. Listen to the minorities at your company and their experiences and don't invalidate them or dismiss them because you haven't experienced it. You could learn a lot and save some people from leaving the industry.
Gender of the 4 is mixed and we have a pretty even gender ratio overall.
If that is a factor, there's no easy solution. But if it is a factor, it may help to be aware of the issue. If you aren't familiar, emotional labor is kind of a hot catch phrase and there are articles and discussions out there.
I tend to be good at the emotional labor thing and it has a history of getting me imposed upon to an unreasonable degree. People often expect me to deeply respect them and kiss their boo-boos and make them feel okay about everything. This often occurs while I am being treated very disrespectfully and can't get my needs met.
If you are the CTO, why is peacemaking your job? That isn't usually one of the official duties of a CTO, is it?
If that is the issue, you will need to learn to alter your behavior so people feel less free to impose in this manner. You will also need to think through just how much you need to be interceding in the relationships of employees.
You can work on doing ice breaker exercises and team building exercises etc. But if the real problem is that you are being viewed as the team mom and people want you to fix everything and expect perfection, that may not fully resolve the issue.
I've read your comments here for quite some time and they are generally insightful and I usually agree with you, but this time I think that as the CTO, peacemaking is her job. At least, it would be in such a small environment.
It's really less about peacemaking and more about making sure that her team integrates well with the rest of the company. I agree with the poster who said to at least make sure he understands what he's doing that is causing a problem. I've been in his position and had absolutely no idea what people were complaining (behind my back!) about.
As a team lead, it falls on my shoulders to deal with similar personnel issues. I sometimes have to point out to my devs that their behavior is being perceived as rude or uncaring to people outside the team. In our little company without an HR dept, it's up to me to figure out how that can be resolved.
As my wife likes to say "you can't talk to everyone else like they're all engineers." :-)
Sure, but you aren't right this minute finding it so impossible to deal with that you need to get advice from internet strangers on how to handle it. And perhaps one factor is gender.
People often set different expectations for women than for men. Those expectations can be unreasonable.
When my oldest son was a little boy, he came to me every single day, multiple times a day to ask if he could use the bathroom. I was all sweetness and light and reassured him that of course he could. That's what it was there for.
This was an aggravating and enormous imposition. Both my kids have special needs. I have health problems. I was chronically short of sleep. No amount of reassuring him that he could use the bathroom any time he wanted ever put a stop to him nagging me for warm fuzzy reassurance.
After two years of this, I began replying "No, you cannot use the bathroom. Tie a knot in it. In fact, I plan to have both bathrooms removed."
He would look at me with gears turning behind his eyes, then walk off to the bathroom. After a week or two, the questions stopped. He just began using the toilet without first imposing on me for reassurance that it was okay.
My son had never done the same thing to his dad or anyone else. He only imposed on me -- endlessly -- for completely unnecessary feel good reassurance about ten times a day every single day until I stopped feeling obligated to provide that for bathroom trips.
Women are often expected to be bottomless dispensers of positive emotional experiences to a degree and in a manner that is not typically expected of men. Her peacemaking duties may not be what you are experiencing. And it is worth considering the possibility that employees are imposing excessively upon her.
Thanks for your perspective - I really appreciate it.
Isn't that generally one of the jobs of a leader, to help diagnose and mediate conflict among stakeholders?
I would assume the Chief Technical Officer is not usually primarily considered to be a people person and that other leaders would usually be the go to person for this kind of friction.
It was a question intended as food for thought about the exact dynamic of the situation.
Some developers are often just that - hard headed coders, if they haven't come from a role or a background that has required them to "Customer Facing" then you need to re-evaluate the reporting chain or if it is crucial that they be "customer facing" then you need to broach the subject with him that he needs to understand how to talk to them.
As CTO of a small company you should head up the engineering team, if required you will need to act as the go between to get the requirements distilled into a format your senior dev can then action with the rest of the team.
If you cant absorb this responsibility then you need to get a project manager of some sort in to manage it :)
I've worked with people in the past that respect the chain o' command to such a degree that they will follow everything a more senior member of staff will say, but will both ignore and undermine what people on their level or below say. I've also noticed a trend where they will respect the "workers" of the office, but have little respect for Project Managers or anyone they don't perceive to be battling on the front lines.
In the past, a good way to get around this was to ensure that everything that needed doing was in writing. This way, everyone knew what was expected of them, and it was much harder for someone to be confrontational or condescending if any of this was in writing.
Given the fact that it's a small company I will take it (from own experience), that the process or agility around on how you produce software is blurred and probably not totally in place.
The missing "boundaries" for some developers can be stressful and if a process is missing that can lead to frustration.
When I lead teams I also try to "cut of" or act as a buffer to the business side of the team, and have them focus and hold them accountable for what they are good at (and that's often sales, marketing, budgets etc.). And let me and the team do what we're good at.
The communication around these things most be done a proper professional fashion. Down the line no company can function with a CEO that believes he/she has a say in how a developer should act outside his own temple.
So many teams allow too much interference from the outside. They shouldn't be allowed. Focus on what you and you're team is good at and have the rest of the company focus on what they are good at.
There are different communication cultures even within a country or a region. For instance, engineering culture (in many communities or companies) accepts bluntness and directness in ways that the general culture often does not. Or people who grew up on the US coasts are often uncultured to more blunt, direct, fast-paced communication styles than those who grew up in the Midwest or South. Some families treat (friendly) confrontation and debate as a game, whereas others interpret it as conflict or rudeness or even power struggle.
If you grow up communicating in one style, you may not be aware that other people use other styles. And even if you are, you may not be aware of how that causes them to interpret your own style.
So don't just tell your engineer "change". Give him training in the communication style you expect him to use in the workplace.
If you haven't already, I suggest you get some concrete examples from the employees who submitted the complaints. Then spend half an hour to an hour once a week role-playing similar conversations with your engineer. During these sessions, give clear feedback on what comes across as blunt or rude or condescending (and why), and suggest different phrasing or approaches that might be more diplomatic. Keep doing this until you no longer have to suggest significant changes.
Fit goes further than skill, in my opinion. If you want to keep your non-tech folks around, let that guy go, and hire for fit.
You'd be doing yourself massive favors.
From your experience with him I guess this employee does not intend to be curt/cold/condescending to other people, but might appear "cold" discussing some technical subjects. Others might expect a "warm" conversation instead.
Lets call this conversation VS discussion. There's a place for both. Sometimes even in the same meeting. But i tend to think when there is clarity beforehand, its best for both parties. Even warm feedback can land as a cold discussion if not handled with consideration.
Also if you’re starting to catch fire from your CEO (founder/cofounder) about it that’s a good indication that it’s already leading to those problems and is effecting your standing/trust with the rest of the company.
1. Job was to easy for me.
2. The non technical people where not very bright. (seriously they where just winging it.)
3. I didn't care.
4. Wasn't challenged.
5. Non technical people treated me as a code monkey, when I first got there.
6. I had the power. Even if the fired me, it would take them weeks to get back up and running.
7. As of right now, Developers have the power.
Oddly, enough I am not a jerk, but I didn't like being taken advantage of in this particular situation.
But if this is visibly affecting delivery quality or timeline then it makes sense to get involved.
If it comes to that, I would defend my team member until proven guilty. Ask for specific scenarios and then if they seem serious then just pass a word to team member that there is heat around this issue. And he / she could have said this or handled this way.
Sometimes people are what they are. It doesn't occur to them that they are offending others.
You also can't expect them to change without patience n guidance. Keep sharing scenarios and what he could have done better.
If this is behavioral problem then he would take time to come out of it.
This is a rather broad and not very actionable criticism. Can you get more specific feedback? For example, something of the form "In situation X, you did/said Y, and that led me to think Z" is more actionable. Also, it is useful to pay attention to the classification problems that your engineer faces. There is a sometimes a balance between being condescending by giving someone info they already know and not providing enough context for an explanation.
The book "Thanks for the Feedback" [1] is a good read and Erika Carlson's talk[2] from Lead Developer UK is a good watch.
[1] https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thanks-Feedback-Science-Receiving-W...
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsfNS9HSWQs
When I've encountered and had to help solve for this sort of thing in the past, there was usually something deeper at the root of it. In one case it was the fact that people on the marketing team were not able to formulate their engineering asks to a sufficiently technical degree, or understand the ideal workflow of an engineer. So what would happen is engineers would get frustrated fielding these requests because they lacked most of the necessary information needed to build anything, and were constantly asked to support multiple significant scope changes throughout the process.
That would understandably frustrate many people. But once we identified that as one of the big issues, we were able to develop process to help address it. Things like documenting commonly asked technical specifics up front, or setting milestones and making sure everyone understood the impact of changing things helped streamline things.
Another big piece of that was having someone who could bridge that gap from a communication standpoint. That ended up being me for a lot of it, which was fun since while I am a marketer, I'm fairly technical and usually get on very well with engineers. If two people can't speak a common language, sometimes the easiest solution is to work through a third person who can translate.
Thanks for this - sounds like we're trying to do some things right.
However if they are being curt and coming across cold and frustrated because they keep asking for the same things every time and don't get them, that's a process issue and an easily solved one at that.
Sounds like you may benefit from digging deeper into people's issues on this to identify how much is really communication style and skills vs. symptoms of process issues.
You should also review your hiring process and see how you can avoid this in the future, I can guess that you interviewed the technical people, and your CEO the non-technical ones, and you (together) didn't catch this as a potential issue.
It is very common that arrogant developers are condescending to non-tech people and not to tech people, considering themselves a special breed of human beings.
"I've drawn a pretty hard line in defending him thus far"
Why? Do you have evidence that the SDE is right? 4 different complains on a 9 employees company seems to indicate that's not the case.
I agree though, 4/9 is concerning.
Thanks!