Ask HN: What visas are available for working in Europe without a degree?
I'm a 26 year old software developer with no degree from Canada. Navigating the waters of under 30 work permit visas for all European countries is turning out to be quite complex and I feel like I'm missing information.
My goal is to find work and live in a European country before age 30, ideally with a possible path to stay. If you have information on non-euro countries, I'd be very curious about that as well.
Part of the confusing bit is that some countries have working holiday visas with no highly skilled restrictions, Germany has the blue card and specific restrictions, all have separate skilled worker (with qualification) permits, and the list goes on. I feel like the job market is good, but I have no idea where I stand.
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There are other considerations as well, such as the vastness of Canada vs the closer proximity of mainland Europe to other countries. I'm from Winnipeg, and it's a 6 hour drive to the next minor city.
Edit: I don't think these interests are rare, but I get the feeling that people more or less want to find a paying job that let's them buy a single family home and move out to the suburbs. I don't subscribe to this idea, and want to explore other avenues of living.
Furthermore, work culture here hasn't been desirable so far in my career. I don't necessarily expect it to be different elsewhere, but why not broaden my horizons in that respect too?
Germany: Berlin Freelancer/Artist Visa. Do anything you want for 2 year, and does not need a regular job offer (involves a bit of paperwork).
The Freelancer visa rather easily lets you stay for two years. In that time, you can find a company to hire you and sponsor a more permanent visa. IIRC, you can apply for permanent residency after five years in the country.
Berlin was dirt cheap for a long time, and still is compared to cities with similar size in similar countries. It's full of people trying all sorts of alternative approaches to life. As long as it's not criminal[0], you can do almost anything and probably find five to five thousand others than want to do it with you, two journalists than want to make a documentary about it, and one New York Times article declaring it the new trend.
[0]: or probably even if it is
https://www.gov.uk/tier-5-youth-mobility
First find a couple of places you want to live in and then search for their visas, doing it the other way is going to be a nightmare as you already know.
Plus the country hasn't decided if it wants to collapse into chaos in March 2019.
(A consideration for you whereever you go: what happens if you meet someone and want to have a relationship with them that outlasts your visa?)
Your biggest hurdle will be your first job in the EU. So make sure your first visa isn't tied to your job, because you'll likely want to change it in the short-term. After that - it's smooth sailing.
It sounds like you've followed a similar path. Mind expanding on your experience?
[1]: https://ind.nl/en [2]: https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/...
https://qotoqot.com/blog/best-countries/
Last year I tried to immigrate to some European countries (Germany, Norway, Czech Republic, Spain) without success. While I could ace the interviews with multiple startups and medium/big companies, none of them wanted to sponsor the immigration considering the lack of formal education. One of my coworkers suggested to get a business visa either in Czech Republic or Germany because these two countries offer a straight-forward paperwork process that only requires some money, generic documents and a translator. He incorporated himself, got health insurance, a long term rent, did some generic paperwork and in a couple of months he got the letter of acceptance from the immigration office.
I was going to do the same but in Germany, considering that 5 different startups were interested to hire me, I was honest with them and explained my situation and they were okay, but I would need to get the visa by myself. The German government has a visa called "Residence Permit for the Purpose of Freelance or Self-Employment" [1] the page explains very well what you need to get the permit, you can live in the country for two years (one year + renovate for 6 months two times), then you can apply for the blue card which grants you the same rights of a regular citizen.
[1] https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305249/en/
> If you hold a residence permit or a long-stay visa issued by a Schengen area country, you will have the same freedom of travel as a Schengen short-stay visa holder.
https://web.archive.org/web/20180108183307/http://ec.europa.... (the main website is down, but here's a wayback snapshot)
While this was true before, it's increasingly not like that anymore. The border between Spain-France has historically been easy to pass without proper checks, they are checking more and more individuals crossing the border. As I've been told, the increase is happening across other borders (in EU/Schengen) as well.
While sometimes they don't check at all, it's possible they do random controls. So keep in mind that you might not be able to pass the border without proper identification.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35222015
https://web.archive.org/web/20171003065628/http://ec.europa....
So it really depends on where you are from originally.
Even as a permanent resident of Germany, I have no special rights within any other Schengen member states that grant me any ability to stay. (Though, there is a permanent residence category called "Daueraufenthalt-EU" which does grant additional rights through other Schengen(/EU?) states.)
Sure, you remain - until you become an EU resident/citizen - a foreigner and you don't have the same rights of an EU citizen.
What I was trying to say is that a Canadian citizen can come and stay up to 90 days in any EU country within the Schengen group without any need of any Visa.
The "Daueraufenthalt-EU" you are referring to is a sort of "intermediate status" that you may gain after having legally resided in Germany for 5 years, I presume there are similar provisions in other EU/Schengen countries as well.
I run http://www.visaok.in/ a job board listing curated visa sponsored tech jobs in over 20 countries around the world. A while back, I painstakingly created Visa Guides for the top 20 most popular countries around the world (most of them are in Europe and Asia). These Visa Guides provide details on the Visa Requirements in various categories of 'Skilled Tech Workers'. All Visa Guides are listed here => http://www.visaok.in/work-permit/blog/
I found that in almost all the countries that have some sort of a 'Startup Visa', there is no requirement for having a degree.
I've listed the Guides for European employers below. It shouldn't take you too long to identify a country of choice and review the short, but detailed Visa Guide to see if you fit in without a college degree. You can then search the main job site after selecting the Visa from the dropdown and entering your skill / job title.
My email is in bio. Feel free to write back for more info or if you have any feedback on the job board.
Germany Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-germany/
Netherlands Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-netherlands/
UK Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-united-kingdom/
Czech Republic Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/czech-republic-visa-guide/
Hungary Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/hungary-visa-guide/
Ireland Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/ireland-visa-guide/
Spain Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-spain/
Finland Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/finland-visa-guide/
Austria Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/austria-visa-guide/
Denmark Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/denmark-visa-guide/
Poland Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/poland-visa-guide/
Sweden Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-sweden/
Estonia Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-estonia/
If I have any questions for you directly, I'll be sure to reach out. Thanks for extending the invitation.
After four years in Sweden you would be granted a permanent residence, and one year later you could apply for Swedish passport.
The requirement of 'degree in computer science' is just a part of standard job description, at least I was never asked about my (missing) degree.
One interesting option to consider are 'consultant agencies'. They hire you on a permanent basis (often offering relocation) and then offer you to companies. This way you may reach companies not offering relocation themselves (e.g. startups). A small consultancy I am working for now, Go See Talents [2], is offering relocation from outside EU (along with mentoring for less experienced developers, which is probably not the case for you)
[1] https://www.arbetsformedlingen.se
[2] http://goseetalents.com
According to UDI one of the ways you qualify as a skilled worker : special qualifications that you have obtained through long work experience, if relevant in combination with courses etc. A permit is only granted in such cases in exceptional circumstances. Your qualifications must be equivalent to those of someone who has completed vocational training [1].
You also need to show that you can support yourself for 6 months (NOK 119 392)
[0] https://www.udi.no/en/want-to-apply/work-immigration/job-see...
[1] https://www.udi.no/en/word-definitions/skilled-worker/
If a company is willing to sponsor your visa then it's really not hard over here.
I was in a pretty much similar situation to you when I started to think about moving to Europe (or Canada, btw): some work experience; no formal degree; late twenties. I also felt there is some chicken and egg problem, though the solution is simple: just send your CV to interesting companies, asking if they are offering relocation from outside EU. Many large companies like Spotify, Klarna offer relocation, as well as meny smaller companies.
As you have went through recruitment process (which in Sweden is quite humane) and accepted the offer, your employer would have applied on behalf of you for work visa (typically 2-years, which later could be extended unless you get a permanent right of residence after four years).
You only need insurance and proof of finance means to support yourself and/or leave (return home); you can stay 12 months and extend to 24, possible 36 if you're studying too.
https://ca.ambafrance.org/ExperienceFrance
https://notanomadblog.com/how-to-emigrate-germany-startup-jo...
I also have a friend-of-a-friend who moved from SF to Berlin to work for Deliveroo, so you could try reaching out to that company directly.
http://www.workingholidayinfo.com/canadians/
It has info for other nationalities too (I'm Australian). I'm not sure if Kirsty is keeping it updated, so you might want to double-check her info, but it should be a good starting point.
If you're intending to stay, Germany's Blue Card might be the best path. If you can learn the language and attain B1 level of fluency, you can gain permanent residency in 21 months.
http://www.australien.diplo.de/Vertretung/australien/en/03/V...
But it looks like there are also exemptions for "bottleneck" industries that urgently require specialists, and Software Development and Programming are currently listed. (Some of the commercial sites suggest 5 years of commercial experience will also qualify.) You'll note that IT also gets a discount on the minimum required salary to qualify.
Try the Make It In Germany website, which is an official government site and links out to some of the exemption documents:
http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en
Oh, and also note that Canadians (like Australians & Americans) get a favored status. Note at the bottom of that first link that Canadians can apply for a Blue Card after arriving in Germany. So maybe you could try applying for the Working Holiday visa (easier to get), and once you're over there look into converting your visa to the Blue Card.
Edit: Are you considering moving to Canada? If not, can you speak to why you think more Europeans are interested in doing so?
I moved to Finland because I had paid a visit before and had "fell in love with it," so to say. And even though it's an advanced country with an extremely high standard of living, getting in and settling was surprisingly easy.
They did ask me for a degree at the embassy, but I just gave them a good resume and recommendation letters (whom they never contacted). I told them I'm self-taught and don't need a degree. Their official website speaks vaguely on the subject of degrees, but their law does not explicitly require it. If you're in the IT sector, you mainly need a high salary and an offer from preferrably a stable company. That's enough to qualify you for a visa called "Residence permit for a person employed as a special expert."
This visa grants you a lot of freedom. After moving to Finland For example, you have 4 months to choose to stay in your new job. If you decide to leave the job, this visa allows you to stay in the country to find another job. Doing that with a non-specialist visa may cause you trouble when you decide to extend your stay the next year.
The visa also easily renews after one year of working, giving you four additional years, after which you can apply for permanent residence or citizenship.
Since you're a Canadian citizen, the process should be even easier for you. Basically a company gives you an offer and relocates you to a hotel/airbnb in Finland right away, so you can start working before the authorities decide on your visa. Once you're in Finland, you can visit the immigration office and apply for residency there.
Once you have your permit, you can go ahead and get a permanent place to live, which most companies help you with. They usually lend you the rent deposit, pay for a hotel before you find a place, and help you with your rental contract, etc.
There is very little paperwork in the whole process. Setting up a bank account is easy. Taxes are done online and are mostly automatic. Health insurance is granted from day one. Additional insurance is cheap and a single phone call away.
The whole process was so smooth that most of the time I didn't even realise there was a process there. It was only after I had moved to Germany (a country that I love to live in and hate to do paperwork in) that I realised just how well oiled the Finnish system really is. And I hear they've made it even better since I left :)
The company will need to dig much further into the bureaucracy path in order to do so, so you need to be a great candidate.
If you don't have a degree, it's more like a lottery that depends on whoever gets to see your case at the embassy/labor department.
The company appealed to the ZAV multiple times and got rejected.
And software developer is in the shortage list. I don't advise trying it without a degree even though I got assurances from every recruiter I talked to that a degree was absolutely not necessary. I should have trusted my gut.
EDIT: I showed the embassy formal proof of my work experience, countless IT courses, many certifications (LPI, Kubernetes, Oracle, etc), participation in open source projects. They shrugged it all off and said "no degree, only ZAV can approve you". ZAV wasn't happy about it either. So I'm not how serious these countries are when they talk about a shortage of skilled workers. It seems they can't help themselves with the bureaucracy.
I'd never bothered to officially graduate, but I did it before immigrating here in case I have to move to a BlueCard post Brexit.
At this point I'm blaming it on the situation being too different from what the immigration workers are used to, but it gave me a lot of headaches (and wasted time/money for me and the company).
It's still odd they denied your work visa, though. I had a friend who got a work visa for a management position at a coworking space.