This is consistent with my college experience but maximally inconsistent with post-college: because of online dating, many people can and do go on more coffee-only first-dates than previous generations ever did. Maybe that means they are being psychologically warped by perceived disposability, but they certainly aren't lacking in practice talking with strangers.
I'm not sure if it's in the article or not, but the professor requires her students to ask people out in person. In my experience, both from dating and from talking to male and female friends, this is significantly less common now than in the past. And I've noticed that on planes and while waiting in lines people talk with strangers less than when I was a kid.
Agreed, though this is not necessarily bad. Ideally, dating apps let us crudely filter for some of the things we're looking for, so that the relative value of interacting with the random people with whom we are physically nearby goes down.
Also, after getting lots of experience with dating using apps, asking people on a first date in meatspace gets much easier (even if there is no exactly analagous sitaution in online dating).
I agree with your post-college assessment, but I think the skill that's lacking practice is the ability to approach and meet new people. Phones, texting as the dominant form of communication, and swipe apps seem to have made that interaction more socially unacceptable / reduced the urgency for it.
Maybe because of age (I'm 35) or culture (I'm in Asian country), but I don't get it. To get laid, you need to go through the process of dating: Ask her out, lots of "bullshit" (a matter on perspective), spend time and money, and if you're lucky, you'll get laid.
Maybe what she meant is "in serious relationship"?
All that "bullshit" she puts you through is probably her way of trying to figure out if you're someone she could have a relationship with or just another dickhead trying to get laid.
"Some guys end up putting their everything (money, reputation, efforts and huge time) and still don't get anything meaningful out of it."
Relationships are not a one-way street or a vending machine. You can't expect to just pump in a bunch of time and money and for the product to automatically come popping out.
There has to be some chemistry between the two of you... the other person has to actually like you. That takes more than effort, money or time. It takes developing a genuine connection, which in turn usually requires an emotional investment, an opening up to the other person, having shared values, a shared view of the world, perhaps even a sense of humor that the other person finds funny, and so on.
Unless, of course, you're just looking to get laid.. in which case a sex worker might be a better use of your money.
There are definitely way too many people (men and women) who are just after money. One of the downsides of being rich is that those kind of people tend to sniff you out and come after whatever they can leech off of you.
Being poor, I don't have that problem. If someone likes me, I can be pretty sure they're not after my money.. because I don't have any.
That said, with or without money, relationships can start out good and turn sour for many reasons completely unrelated to money. When relationships start, we're often putting on our best face, and the people we're dating only see the positive side of us (and we of them). After a while, unless we have outstanding acting ability (and usually some kind of pathology which keeps us from being genuine with our loved ones), we start to show our true selves to each other.. and we (or they) might not like what we see.
That's when relationships can easily fall apart -- especially if both people aren't mature enough to recognize that most relationships require hard work to keep them going in the long run, and aren't committed to doing that work. Communication is especially important at this stage.
What am I doing wrong? How can I do better? What do I want out of this relationship? At a fundamental level, are we really compatible?
These are questions we have to ask ourselves and each other, but most people are really bad at communicating -- especially with people close to themselves, with people who they feel vulnerable to and who they don't want to hurt.... until they can't take it anymore and things blow up.. but by then it's usually too late to make amends.
So, yeah, if things are going wrong for you over and over, and if you or the people you're dating are falling in to recognizable patterns, you might want to start by asking yourself some tough questions.. perhaps with the help of a good therapist. Negative relationship patterns are one of the things a good therapist could really help you to break out of -- in more constructive ways than just giving up.
Unless you are literally homeless and eating at soup kitchens because you have zero income, then you have some money, even if you aren't rich.
There is always someone who can have less than you. I have seen plenty of homeless people used for their money by someone claiming romantic interest, usually women.
When I was a homeless woman, I knew a homeless guy who had fantasies I would provide for him in exchange for sex. Yeah, no.
I did the homemaker thing and supported my husband's career. It cost me a career. Time is money as they say. I'm divorced and I am still struggling to make ends meet.
I'm dirt poor and I very much agree with the GP. Love isn't real.
Well, I'm not after other people's money. It sounds like you and GP aren't after it either. We all want to make genuine connections and have meaningful relationships.
That makes three of us, and I have a feeling there are many more. We're just not connecting enough, and have been bitten so much that we stay home licking our wounds instead of risking getting hurt again.
But it's not because good people aren't out there. They're out there. We just have to find them somehow, and that takes trying instead of sitting at home.
Trying has taught me the exact same thing the GP has learned: People only ever take advantage of me. That's it.
I'm not rich, but it has cost me plenty to be kind and generous to people and I don't need some internet stranger trying to give me some pep talk like I just haven't tried hard enough.
Yes, we are strangers. I don't know you, and don't know what you have or haven't tried, or how hard you've tried. I don't know who you met and who you didn't meet, how they treated you or how you treated them.
I, like you, have my own experience of and view on the world, and I was just expressing it and trying to help -- help not just you but anyone who's reading this that might be going through something similar.
I've seen so many good people torpedo their own chances, so many people blame others when they actually had a role to play in the negative way the relationship went (I'm not saying you're doing this because, as you point out, I don't know you at all.. but some people certainly do exactly that), and so many people could do a lot better if they did try more and worked on their issues more to actually improve their own desirability and ability to cope with serious relationships.
But if you don't believe me, if you're not convinced or don't think what I say applies to you, and you prefer to give up, fine. Then what I say is not for you. Maybe it can encourage someone else who hasn't yet given up.
I have written and erased at least 5 replies here. As nicely as possible, the approach you are taking is not a good way to be encouraging to bitter people. It feels on the receiving end very dismissive and like a kick in the teeth.
I'm talented at making other people feel okay about themselves. I'm talented at taking care of other people and doing right by them, even under extremely challenging circumstances. The only people who have ever given back on par with what I gave them is my two sons.
Everyone else seems to essentially say "Thanks for the freebies! (chump! God, what a fool! Ha ha ha! I can't believe the bitch fell for that!)"
If I ever meet a guy who wants me and is not essentially a blood sucking vampire, great! But I'm just not holding my breath anymore.
"As nicely as possible, the approach you are taking is not a good way to be encouraging to bitter people."
Then what is a good way to be encouraging to bitter people?
I mean, something that is actually encouraging rather than discouraging, and not something I don't believe. Because I am hopeful about relationships, and don't believe in simply isolating oneself because the only people you're going to meet are going to be users and abusers. I just don't believe that's true, even if some people have been unlucky enough to only meet and be abused by such horrible people.
For starters, you can stop being judgey. You have described me as giving up and isolating myself. I haven't said any such thing.
For another, genuine empathy for a person's experiences is a good place to start.
My youngest son used to have the obnoxious habit of only ever saying "I love you" as a rebuttal when I was whining that "No one loves me!" until I finally handed him his head over what rotten behavior that was and told him if he really loved me, he could say it at times when it didn't amount to shooting me down gratuitously and kicking me while I was down.
The absolute worst time to tell people "Chin up, tally ho!" is when they are in a funk -- especially if that's the only interaction they have with you.
I understand where you are coming from precisely because I'm an excessively optmistic Pollyanna with a bad habit of doing exactly that. It's a habit I have tried hard to break because it basically never goes anywhere good.
I'm not in a good place today. I don't intend to continue this conversation. It doesn't really have anything to do with you.
"You have described me as giving up and isolating myself. I haven't said any such thing."
You're absolutely right. I saw you say "Love isn't real" and "Trying has taught me the exact same thing the GP has learned: People only ever take advantage of me. That's it," and assumed that because of that you had given up. I shouldn't have made that assumption, and I apologize for that. I'll also try to ask myself if I'm in any way being judgmental before I post something in the future, because that's not my conscious intention -- quite the opposite.
"For another, genuine empathy for a person's experiences is a good place to start."
Ok. I'll work on that. I admit that I was too dismissive of your experiences. I should have had more empathy.
"The absolute worst time to tell people "Chin up, tally ho!" is when they are in a funk -- especially if that's the only interaction they have with you."
True. I know how that feels, and I hate it when people do that to me. But I'm really at a loss as to what to say that could be more genuinely encouraging to a bitter person. Maybe I shouldn't say anything except offer empathy.
"I understand where you are coming from precisely because I'm an excessively optmistic Pollyanna with a bad habit of doing exactly that."
That's funny, because I'm usually really pessimistic. I think sometimes my pep talks are as much for myself as they are for other people.
"I'm not in a good place today. I don't intend to continue this conversation. It doesn't really have anything to do with you."
I understand. Absolutely no hard feelings on my part. I'm sorry for being insensitive.
I just want to say, as a bystander, thanks for offering your perspective on this. It's reassuring that someone else feels the same way I do.
As you say, that makes at least four of us who aren't looking for someone with money. And I get that a lot of the world is like that. Not that I'm judging the rest of the world, you do you, whoever you are. It just gets frustrating for me personally sometimes when it feels like I'm the only one in my circle of friends who feels this way about dating.
So thanks again. I would like to discuss this further with you, if you're up for it.
Perhaps what she is suggesting is the exact opposite of what you're describing: trying to actually, intentionally speak to another person without it being the prelude to something (sex, social media post about "Look at the fun we're having", etc). When we see each other as inputs to a transaction, something has been lost. There should be joy from interpersonal contact.
No, the article is quite explicit about there being a significant population who are getting laid but have never ever been on a first date with a (relative) stranger before that. "hookup culture has become so dominant on college campuses"; what you said used to be true but now is not. It's plausible that some couple might start with a hookup and get laid, and only later start going on dates as they form a serious relationship.
It’s vastly different in Western countries. I’ve hooked up with girls from Tinder and have brought girls from parties or bars, but have never been on a date. Most people I (a 22 year old) know are the same way.
The point of the dating described in the article wasn't for the students to get laid, or to spend a lot of time or money. The point was to get them to show some backbone by asking someone out in person, spend maybe $10 on the date, and to have it last perhaps 90 minutes.
She was making the point that in current US culture, among college-age people, it's more common to ask someone out impersonally (e.g. via text message, Tinder, etc), and for the purpose of the "date" to be sex. It's less effort to do that than to make a real connection with someone else.
I don't know what it's like in your country, but in my experience, if you just want to get laid, say so up front. It's surprisingly effective and either way, the honesty tends to be appreciated.
Another way to measure people by attractiveness or agreeableness or some other attribute that doesn't matter for engineering. The goal is likely to give a certain demographic good grades, like almost all of K-12.
One of the things I didn’t appreciate until leaving college was how much the world narrows. In college you’re surrounded by people at similar life stages who are more open to new experiences and to meeting new people (or at least more so than after). It’s a lot more difficult to form new friendships after college and that seems especially true now that phones and other entertainment occupy downtime attention. Texting has emerged as the dominant form of communication and it’s easier than ever to flake on plans since all you need to do is send a text. People seem to be increasingly isolated, lonely, and unhappy.
And this is all very new having only really emerged around 2009 - 2010 or so.
You can find similar people, it just takes more work.
One good outlet is work. Usually you can find a few similar people there.
The other good outlet is hobbies. Love running? Join a running club. Lots of people who love running. Similar mindset + common interest = a good pool to meet people from.
Flexing these types of social muscles can be an amazing experience. One of my biggest confidence boosters came from asking out a woman whom I'd just met, and then getting turned down.
We were at a pet store, and happened to chat briefly about our dogs. I asked if she'd like to grab coffee, and she said she had a boyfriend. We chatted a bit more about our dogs, and went our separate ways.
It was amazing to see that this type of experience doesn't need to be scary, and can feel extremely normal. I don't know many others who have experienced either side of that type of interaction, so it's encouraging to see this professor is encouraging it in her students.
As someone in their 40's who dates girls in their 20's, I've definitely found this to be true. Many of the girls I got out with have never been on a traditional date. I get the impression that the experience of being picked up, taken to a nice restaurant, being conversed with, and not worrying about the bill is something out of the twilight zone for them.
Young guys, you're doing it wrong, but as an old fogey, I'm not complaining.
As someone in their 20's, going for traditional dates of coffee/dinner and conversation is all I do. I have been on about 30 dates in the last year and they were all traditional dates. I've also never tried for anything within the realm of casual dating ever.
I really don't think your claim would hold up to light in my experience dude. All of the women were readily aware that it was a date and none of the dates really went anywhere.
Historically, women basically aimed to marry well. Men had careers. Women had husband's to provide for them.
A lot of those relationships weren't terribly emotionally intimate. I married my best friend. But a lot of marriages were never like that.
Now, women want careers. Juggling two careers is hard. Fewer women want children.
If you are both going to work and support yourself, then the primary thing you want from a "relationship" is sex.
I mean, I'm 52. I'm not the hookup type. I had a long marriage. I'm not easy to get next to.
But this idea that both people will have serious careers and also a deep, intimate relationship and also also kids...
There's only 24 hours in the day. That's not a very realistic expectation for most people.
In that context, hookup culture makes sense. All our fairy tale ending stories are posited on an old fashioned marriage where she's a full time wife and he provides for her. If that isn't your mental model, if you expect some other basis for your life, well, that has knock off effects that it's gauche to talk about because people don't like looking at marriage as a kind of financial contract. But that's what it is.
Is it really true that the primary thing we want from a relationship is sex? Yes we want sex but what about companionship, a fellow traveller, someone to love and be loved by? These maybe harder to achieve but I think these are things people are 'primarily' looking for in relationships. Cheap sex isn't that hard to find, and for most men at least, sex alone is not enough to justify the effort involved in a relationship. I suspect the same applies with at least equal force to women.
Mmm, yeah, you're really gonna help prepare young people for the future with sage advice like "texting is the devil". I don't really have a problem with this but it seems very silly.
From my anecdotal experience, being out of your comfort zone is the actual highway to relationships.
I used to live in a house in a foreign country to which people from my home country crashed to during their short, usually few week visits at the area. Surprisingly, the people who came there were exceptionally open (exceptional as in compared to a usual native). Most of them came either alone or with one friend/business partner. I think a lot of their openness attributed to the fact that they were in a temporary, new environment.
I also noticed that being open myself first helped to initiate deep conversations. But after returning to home and to college, despite continuing to prompt these discussions, I rarely get the same kind of reaction anymore.
My general observation is that my peers are happy to answer questions I have, but they lack the social skills to listen and ask leading questions. But then again, this might just be that they find me uninteresting as a person, but the difference is worryingly stark -- out of 30 people I've befriended on Facebook only a few have I had conversations deep enough I'd consider to meet up with them just to talk. The numbers were very much the opposite if you'd compare it to the experience in the foreign land.
Thus, I think it is silly to have fear of missing out on relationships or a partner during college. With the new brave world of remote working, I could as well make a living in the opposite end of the planet just a mere day after graduation, to which I am quite sure most of the peers won't (or wouldn't) follow me anyway.
42 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 40.2 ms ] threadAlso, after getting lots of experience with dating using apps, asking people on a first date in meatspace gets much easier (even if there is no exactly analagous sitaution in online dating).
Maybe what she meant is "in serious relationship"?
Or just somebody who's really good at lying about it.
Relationships are not a one-way street or a vending machine. You can't expect to just pump in a bunch of time and money and for the product to automatically come popping out.
There has to be some chemistry between the two of you... the other person has to actually like you. That takes more than effort, money or time. It takes developing a genuine connection, which in turn usually requires an emotional investment, an opening up to the other person, having shared values, a shared view of the world, perhaps even a sense of humor that the other person finds funny, and so on.
Unless, of course, you're just looking to get laid.. in which case a sex worker might be a better use of your money.
Every woman I pursued ended up costing me $1M. There was all chemistry at the start but soon it disappeared.
Disappearing love is correlated money transfer from me to them.
I've stopped looking for any love. I've accepted does not exist in real world.
Being poor, I don't have that problem. If someone likes me, I can be pretty sure they're not after my money.. because I don't have any.
That said, with or without money, relationships can start out good and turn sour for many reasons completely unrelated to money. When relationships start, we're often putting on our best face, and the people we're dating only see the positive side of us (and we of them). After a while, unless we have outstanding acting ability (and usually some kind of pathology which keeps us from being genuine with our loved ones), we start to show our true selves to each other.. and we (or they) might not like what we see.
That's when relationships can easily fall apart -- especially if both people aren't mature enough to recognize that most relationships require hard work to keep them going in the long run, and aren't committed to doing that work. Communication is especially important at this stage.
What am I doing wrong? How can I do better? What do I want out of this relationship? At a fundamental level, are we really compatible?
These are questions we have to ask ourselves and each other, but most people are really bad at communicating -- especially with people close to themselves, with people who they feel vulnerable to and who they don't want to hurt.... until they can't take it anymore and things blow up.. but by then it's usually too late to make amends.
So, yeah, if things are going wrong for you over and over, and if you or the people you're dating are falling in to recognizable patterns, you might want to start by asking yourself some tough questions.. perhaps with the help of a good therapist. Negative relationship patterns are one of the things a good therapist could really help you to break out of -- in more constructive ways than just giving up.
There is always someone who can have less than you. I have seen plenty of homeless people used for their money by someone claiming romantic interest, usually women.
When I was a homeless woman, I knew a homeless guy who had fantasies I would provide for him in exchange for sex. Yeah, no.
I did the homemaker thing and supported my husband's career. It cost me a career. Time is money as they say. I'm divorced and I am still struggling to make ends meet.
I'm dirt poor and I very much agree with the GP. Love isn't real.
That makes three of us, and I have a feeling there are many more. We're just not connecting enough, and have been bitten so much that we stay home licking our wounds instead of risking getting hurt again.
But it's not because good people aren't out there. They're out there. We just have to find them somehow, and that takes trying instead of sitting at home.
I'm not rich, but it has cost me plenty to be kind and generous to people and I don't need some internet stranger trying to give me some pep talk like I just haven't tried hard enough.
I, like you, have my own experience of and view on the world, and I was just expressing it and trying to help -- help not just you but anyone who's reading this that might be going through something similar.
I've seen so many good people torpedo their own chances, so many people blame others when they actually had a role to play in the negative way the relationship went (I'm not saying you're doing this because, as you point out, I don't know you at all.. but some people certainly do exactly that), and so many people could do a lot better if they did try more and worked on their issues more to actually improve their own desirability and ability to cope with serious relationships.
But if you don't believe me, if you're not convinced or don't think what I say applies to you, and you prefer to give up, fine. Then what I say is not for you. Maybe it can encourage someone else who hasn't yet given up.
I'm talented at making other people feel okay about themselves. I'm talented at taking care of other people and doing right by them, even under extremely challenging circumstances. The only people who have ever given back on par with what I gave them is my two sons.
Everyone else seems to essentially say "Thanks for the freebies! (chump! God, what a fool! Ha ha ha! I can't believe the bitch fell for that!)"
If I ever meet a guy who wants me and is not essentially a blood sucking vampire, great! But I'm just not holding my breath anymore.
Then what is a good way to be encouraging to bitter people?
I mean, something that is actually encouraging rather than discouraging, and not something I don't believe. Because I am hopeful about relationships, and don't believe in simply isolating oneself because the only people you're going to meet are going to be users and abusers. I just don't believe that's true, even if some people have been unlucky enough to only meet and be abused by such horrible people.
For another, genuine empathy for a person's experiences is a good place to start.
My youngest son used to have the obnoxious habit of only ever saying "I love you" as a rebuttal when I was whining that "No one loves me!" until I finally handed him his head over what rotten behavior that was and told him if he really loved me, he could say it at times when it didn't amount to shooting me down gratuitously and kicking me while I was down.
The absolute worst time to tell people "Chin up, tally ho!" is when they are in a funk -- especially if that's the only interaction they have with you.
I understand where you are coming from precisely because I'm an excessively optmistic Pollyanna with a bad habit of doing exactly that. It's a habit I have tried hard to break because it basically never goes anywhere good.
I'm not in a good place today. I don't intend to continue this conversation. It doesn't really have anything to do with you.
You're absolutely right. I saw you say "Love isn't real" and "Trying has taught me the exact same thing the GP has learned: People only ever take advantage of me. That's it," and assumed that because of that you had given up. I shouldn't have made that assumption, and I apologize for that. I'll also try to ask myself if I'm in any way being judgmental before I post something in the future, because that's not my conscious intention -- quite the opposite.
"For another, genuine empathy for a person's experiences is a good place to start."
Ok. I'll work on that. I admit that I was too dismissive of your experiences. I should have had more empathy.
"The absolute worst time to tell people "Chin up, tally ho!" is when they are in a funk -- especially if that's the only interaction they have with you."
True. I know how that feels, and I hate it when people do that to me. But I'm really at a loss as to what to say that could be more genuinely encouraging to a bitter person. Maybe I shouldn't say anything except offer empathy.
"I understand where you are coming from precisely because I'm an excessively optmistic Pollyanna with a bad habit of doing exactly that."
That's funny, because I'm usually really pessimistic. I think sometimes my pep talks are as much for myself as they are for other people.
"I'm not in a good place today. I don't intend to continue this conversation. It doesn't really have anything to do with you."
I understand. Absolutely no hard feelings on my part. I'm sorry for being insensitive.
As you say, that makes at least four of us who aren't looking for someone with money. And I get that a lot of the world is like that. Not that I'm judging the rest of the world, you do you, whoever you are. It just gets frustrating for me personally sometimes when it feels like I'm the only one in my circle of friends who feels this way about dating.
So thanks again. I would like to discuss this further with you, if you're up for it.
She was making the point that in current US culture, among college-age people, it's more common to ask someone out impersonally (e.g. via text message, Tinder, etc), and for the purpose of the "date" to be sex. It's less effort to do that than to make a real connection with someone else.
And this is all very new having only really emerged around 2009 - 2010 or so.
One good outlet is work. Usually you can find a few similar people there.
The other good outlet is hobbies. Love running? Join a running club. Lots of people who love running. Similar mindset + common interest = a good pool to meet people from.
Just surfing facebook won't find you people, no..
We were at a pet store, and happened to chat briefly about our dogs. I asked if she'd like to grab coffee, and she said she had a boyfriend. We chatted a bit more about our dogs, and went our separate ways.
It was amazing to see that this type of experience doesn't need to be scary, and can feel extremely normal. I don't know many others who have experienced either side of that type of interaction, so it's encouraging to see this professor is encouraging it in her students.
One thing I've learned in life is a situation is only weird if you make it weird.
Young guys, you're doing it wrong, but as an old fogey, I'm not complaining.
I really don't think your claim would hold up to light in my experience dude. All of the women were readily aware that it was a date and none of the dates really went anywhere.
A lot of those relationships weren't terribly emotionally intimate. I married my best friend. But a lot of marriages were never like that.
Now, women want careers. Juggling two careers is hard. Fewer women want children.
If you are both going to work and support yourself, then the primary thing you want from a "relationship" is sex.
I mean, I'm 52. I'm not the hookup type. I had a long marriage. I'm not easy to get next to.
But this idea that both people will have serious careers and also a deep, intimate relationship and also also kids...
There's only 24 hours in the day. That's not a very realistic expectation for most people.
In that context, hookup culture makes sense. All our fairy tale ending stories are posited on an old fashioned marriage where she's a full time wife and he provides for her. If that isn't your mental model, if you expect some other basis for your life, well, that has knock off effects that it's gauche to talk about because people don't like looking at marriage as a kind of financial contract. But that's what it is.
I used to live in a house in a foreign country to which people from my home country crashed to during their short, usually few week visits at the area. Surprisingly, the people who came there were exceptionally open (exceptional as in compared to a usual native). Most of them came either alone or with one friend/business partner. I think a lot of their openness attributed to the fact that they were in a temporary, new environment.
I also noticed that being open myself first helped to initiate deep conversations. But after returning to home and to college, despite continuing to prompt these discussions, I rarely get the same kind of reaction anymore.
My general observation is that my peers are happy to answer questions I have, but they lack the social skills to listen and ask leading questions. But then again, this might just be that they find me uninteresting as a person, but the difference is worryingly stark -- out of 30 people I've befriended on Facebook only a few have I had conversations deep enough I'd consider to meet up with them just to talk. The numbers were very much the opposite if you'd compare it to the experience in the foreign land.
Thus, I think it is silly to have fear of missing out on relationships or a partner during college. With the new brave world of remote working, I could as well make a living in the opposite end of the planet just a mere day after graduation, to which I am quite sure most of the peers won't (or wouldn't) follow me anyway.