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Ask HN: Can I be “put on a list” for contacting foreign researchers?

15 points by jamesmurray ↗ HN
I may or may not be a scientist doing frontier research in the areas of information theory, NLP or deep learning.

Some of the research I am doing may have very important applications. One project may be to create novel data ex-filtration strategies involving deep learning and linguistics that allow the concealment of important messages in plain text. Another project may involve the creation of a way of profiling computers users using special measures of their interactions with standard human computer interfaces.

Both of these applications have pro-social uses, such in the first case supporting whistle blowers who are restricted to locked down systems, or in the second case helping to filter out state-sponsored bad actors on social media in a way that fundamentally cannot be concealed. These can also be used in negative ways, that I'll leave to the imagination.

In the full academic spirit, I want to be able to communicate with the best researchers in my fields, which may include Chinese scholars. Separately, everyone here should know that if I'm in a Five Eyes country, which I am a citizen of, my emails to anyone in these countries will be picked up and read.

My question is: Should I be worried about contacting or building relationships with Chinese scholars for the purposes of furthering my research?

I'm worried I'll basically be put on a list that affects my future travel or employment. This is despite no bad actions or intentions on my part and the various nominal freedoms and rights I have. Is there any precedent for what I'm saying and does this interact with my profile in my field?

10 comments

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mswen
Will your outreach be noticed, recorded and stored? Almost certainly. Will it impact your ability to freely travel and gain employment? I don't know. Maybe not today, but who knows how the winds of politics will blow.
jackgolding
I agree with this. I worked with some Chinese lecturers as part of a course and we (European members of the group) joked about things being read which at the time came across as insensitive as they had issues with this before.

I don't think it has put me on a list though - well maybe to the same extent as reading 4chan...

bhouston
Generally all emails are read by the five eyes as well as China in some automated way I believe.

I think if you do research for spying purposes you'll eventually get attention from someone and you may need to figure out which side you want to be aligned with if it is good. If it is not useful, and this is likely the case given no prior, then this is just idle talk.

I prefer to stay away from these things as the intrigue youll run into as an independent researcher is just not worth the hassle. Go get a job at a three letter agency or something like that.

Seriously do not get between China and the US as an independent researcher. It isn't worth it, especially if it is just intellectual curiousity.

gumby
Are you a US citizen? I am not (I have a green card) so won't even sign a greenpeace petition. A legal ruling during the Reagan administration made it clear that green card holders do not have first amendment protection.

Even US citizens need to be careful these days: https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/983418121808760833

andrewmcwatters
> Should I be worried about contacting or building relationships with Chinese scholars for the purposes of furthering my research?

Yes.

jimmies
I think the problem here is that you want to have your cake and eat it, too. The short answer is: You can't have both. Either you do what you need to do, or you fear for various bad consequences that might or might not happen in life and don't get things done.

You can't expect bad things to happen to you when you do nothing, but you can't expect good things happen to you when you do nothing, either. If you fear it, then don't do it.

E(x) = P(x) * Return(x)

When you do nothing E(do_nothing) = 100% * 0 = 0, When you do something, try to evaluate E(do_something) = E(bad) + E(good), and see if E(do_something) > 0 or E(do_something) < 0.

Rjevski
If you want to advance science and research, you can always leak it anonymously over Tor; if you do it properly you will have no repercussions.
maxander
I have to say, I find it remarkably ironic that a researcher developing surveillance technologies has this much concern over being surveiled. I'm also inclined to note that the argument "these technologies with obvious, profound antisocial uses have some feasible prosocial uses also" doesn't justify the work.

Having gotten that off my chest; you're probably worrying about nothing, at least in terms of impact on your day-to-day activities- if the U.S. or aligned nation started curtailing the travel of computer scientists, it would be all over HN for weeks. Maybe if you want to go work for your country's intelligence agency someday (an obvious move, with your interests) they might look over your file before an interview. But perhaps in that case, contacts with Chinese researchers would be seen as an asset- the CIA and similar organizations have been known to try to recruit cooperative foreign-employed scientists in interesting fields, for various purposes, and to use their own experts in those fields to make contact.

It might matter if you're a "real academic," i.e., affiliated with a university and conducting your research in "conventional" settings. For an academic to not be talking to out-of-country colleagues would look pretty odd, in most fields. But if you're just some dude in your basement chatting with Chinese espionage experts, that might raise some red flags. :)

akkat
I don't know it it helps but one of the reasons that the nra was against banning guns from people on the no fly list was that there was no legal process to get in or off the list. Am angry bureaucrat can put anyone (including senators) on the list for whatever reason.

So, based on that I guess that there is a non insignificant change that you will be put on the no fly list