It's awesome to see some more players in this space. I've been keenly watching out for Modern Meadow's updates as well. Looking forward to seeing what this will bring!
"dirty" isn't really well-orderable. It depends on what you're worried about. Chromium toxicity is definitely a huge problem with current leather production, as well as atmospheric effects and water use from raising cattle.
Reported feb 2017, with shutdown of the district ("no exceptions") slated for mar 31, 2017. So what happened, did it shut down and move to the new park that has waste treatment, etc?
Still needs to be tanned and dyed. With the same products. As a lot of the problem with the leather is that tanning products and inks are poisonous, IMHO probably is not a solution for this problem. Mycelium is more porous than leather (probably), so it could absorb more product.
But I could be wrong. Just speculating. Better than plastic for sure if enough strong and can be certified non-allergenig or a cause of asthma.
A lot of the problem with the leather is that you have to kill cows, lambs, etc. for fashion.
But on the plus side a leather jacket can last a lifetime. And they cost mid-hundreds to low-thousands for a decent one so people aren’t buying as many of them as they would a $15 plastic / polyester throwaway jacket from wal mart.
Presumably we're killing the cows and lambs for fashion AND food? Even if we stopped using animal leather materials tomorrow, I doubt it would put much of a dent in the industry.
(For the record I'm all for eating meat, but I agree that beef is unsustainably bad for the environment compared to other animal options like poultry and eggs.)
But leather subsidises the cost of raising animals for meat so reduced demand for it should raise the price of beef. Ideally that would encourage people to eat less beef, and eat more sustainable meats (or no meat at all).
If livestock ranchers cannot sell the skins as leather, they can sell them as cracklings. Or as parchment. Or as gelatin. Or as pet food. Or as fertilizer.
As long as the demand for some product causes the animal to be raised, the undesirable parts will become by-products.
A competitor for leather would depress the price of animal leather, which would tend to raise the price of meat, probably disproportionately for the best cuts. Forelegs, brains, and chitterlings would go up a few cents a pound, while tongues and tenderloins would go up by dollars per pound.
That might encourage people to eat less meat, but it might also encourage them to substitute the cheaper cuts of meat--which include the skins. Rawhide soup, anyone?
Putting personal preference (taste, price, etc.) aside, I'm curious what other reasoning is behind your position of being "all for eating meat" (if any)?
I'm assuming here that by mentioning it in the same sentence as you say beef is bad for the environment, you are talking about being for meat production on a global scale, and not just for your personal preference.
yes I too would like to know the reason for being "all for eating meat". I think most reasonable people wouldn't eat meat (provided reasonable food alternatives) if they got to know the animals and how much they suffer. (just like most Americans would refuse to eat dogs or cats)
It wouldn't put a dent in the industry at all. We raise and kill cows for their meat, not their skins. Their skins are just a handy byproduct. Eliminating the cow-leather market won't change that at all; it might make beef slightly more expensive (I imagine most of the cost of leather is in the processing, not the raw hide), but that's not going to affect beef consumption.
If we mostly eliminate beef (in favor of artificially-grown beef, for instance, which might be a reality in 10-20 years), that'll make cowhides much, much more expensive, so people simply won't be getting leather car seats, leather coats, etc., except maybe for extremely high-end markets.
> ... the problem is that we have to kill cows for fashion
This is a false problem.
Clothes are more than fashion. Leather extracted from dead animals is a big ally against animal cruelty and I'm not trolling. Lets remember why we use it. It saves millions of worker humans from having horrible injuries, painful deep cuts and mutilations.
Could workers rely equally in mycelium for not losing a finger or a leg by a saw if they stumble?
Is mycelium flammable? When I'm using an arc welding torch I want to wear a solid >1mm leather apron. If something goes wrong, leather will save my arms and body from a severe burning. Can filosophy or whisful thinking do the same for me?.
I would not hire a vegan worker if they stubbornly refuse to wear protective clothes arguing that we have pleather that "looks the same" (and burns like gasoline). Would be really irresponsible on my part to hire them.
> on the plus side a leather jacket can last a lifetime, vs polyester throwaway...
I'm not very familiar with non-leather options for welding, but looking around I see fire proofed cotton and kevlar based garments as alternatives. Would you not be willing to hire a vegan welder if they provided their own protective gear that wasn't leather?
Here are some options I've seen but I really have no idea if they're good enough:
> Would you not be willing to hire a vegan welder if they provided their own protective gear that wasn't leather?
It depends of what she/he consider protective gear. Kevlar is fine. Anything that is regulated, lawful, well tested, reliable and covered by the assurance is fine. Those new materials can't still be trusted at the same level and you don't want to be the first to discover in your company that they are acid permeable or burn like a torch when react with some chemical
To let some of your employees work with a lower protection against accidents than other employees, would be negligent and easily prosecutable in court. The non-vegane parents of a vegane killed in an accident would not doubt a second to sue you in this case.
I wear Kevlar, but I'll note one great advantage to leather: it abrades and tears somewhat like skin and doesn't really catch like woven Kevlar can. If you're welding, you're likely also in the vicinity of spinning things, like cutting and grinding disks.
Obviously, it all comes down to balancing needs and risks. I just thought I'd point out how you can meet or exceed one requirement (flameproofing) but potentially create a new risk in the process.
Won't that leather still get used elsewhere? I don't think many animals are reared with the primarry intent of producing leather but rather becouse of our high meat demand and we can't make one without the other.
It will be interesting to see what happens over the next decade or two, once synthmeat is good enough to take over the market. Various breeds of cattle will likely go extinct, and the same social opprobrium that will wipe out the market for "real" meat will presumably affect leather goods as well.
That is quite amusing. Nonetheless, Muslims and Jews will NEVER eat "frankenmeat" thats more than 1.8 billion people to begin with. I also very much doubt synthetic meat will take over the market unless unless there's some natural cause that cuts off every human access to meat. Westerners are moving away from the steroid bred in favor of organic breeds. Locals in developing nations mostly source meat locally even though the affluent ones still buy the shopping mall meat.
Synthetic meat will be relegated to junk food status unless they hide the source and process from consumers, that's even if it makes it out of the lab into wide-scale manufacturing.
When synthetic meat becomes good enough there'll still be loads of people who'll say it's inferior to the real thing. Apart from that I believe a happy cow is better than no cow so sustainable and environmentally-friendly livestock farms still have a reason to exist.
Well, already you have "loads of people" claiming that kobe beef is better than regular beef (or that the black iberian pig is better than other kinds of pig). Yet, since meet from those animals is expensive, in practice the vast majority of meat doesn't come from these species.
It can be identical with synthetic vs natural meat. Price can make the difference, and we can still reduce massively the amount of livestock we breed (e.g. make the farms more environmentally-friendly through regulation)
>"Well, already you have "loads of people" claiming that kobe beef is better than regular beef (or that the black iberian pig is better than other kinds of pig). Yet, since meet from those animals is expensive, in practice the vast majority of meat doesn't come from these species.
Having just been on vacation in Malaga (highly recommended), Jamon Iberico Bellota -- the highest-quality ham from acorn-fed black iberian pigs -- is absolutely, genuinely so superior to lesser hams that it's not even funny. There is just no comparison.
It also costs at least €130/kg even the smallest local ham stores, so yes it is prohibitively expensive, you can expect to pay at least twice that for the genuine stuff, if you're not in Andalusia.
How much of the taste is because the diet, and how much is because of the breed? Who knows, but I think it's a combination.
It is and there are official classifications for that. Ibérico is about the race, pata negra (black paw) being a best subclass name that expanded to anything first class. If a Spaniard says you are pata negra, it's actually good, not an indictment on your feet higiene :)
Bellota (acorn) the diet. You can find intermediate categories like "50% raza ibérica" or "recebo" for both.
Oh yes, I got a very thorough explanation and examples from a very dedicated ham shop owner. It was a bit of a lazy afternoon, so he took the time to properly school us on every detail and the classification system.
If you're ever in Malaga, hit up Azabache in the old part of town. One hell of a shop for ham and cheese and a bit of seafood.
The genetics of the "iberian black pig" are different in a surpsiging way. Studies have shown that their meet contains a lot more monounsaturated fats (The good oil, like olive oil) than other pigs. When raised on acorn and free-roaming, their bodies carry out more endogenous lipolysis. So it's considered a healthy meat to consume (and is raised sustainably to boot).
Kobe beef doesn't really affect the consumption of other beef in a material way not just because it's much more expensive, but (probably mainly) because it's available in very limited quantities and all but impossible to obtain in most parts of the world. Its supply is simply too limited to affect demand for other meats in any appreciable way.
Not that I necessarily disagree with your overall point, though.
Considering that most of US beef comes from factory farms, the concept of the "happy cow" is nearly mythological. Given the choice, I would rather not exist than play those odds.
unfortunately a lot of cows are raised and killed just for leather! (I think for high end uses like purses, etc.).
I don't have an a source for this handy but have heard it from industry experts.
A couple of years ago I came across Tjeerd Veenhoven's palm leather[0][1]. It is probably not quite as super-durable as pure leather, but still quite incredible given how simple it is to produce (basically, soak a palm leaf husk in a water/glycerine solution for a few days), and given that it is mainly made from what used to be waste materials.
Sadly it seems the products based on it did take off enough for it to become a thing (especially since he seemed to be doing his best to also ensure the local economy of the places where this material would be produced would benefit from it). The project got turned into a foundation that tries to support a local economy and design community, so who knows, it might make a comeback in a few years[2].
More recently Veenhoven has been developing pigments from discarded tulip flower heads[3], and fabrics based on algae[4].
I came across fish leather at a market recently. It is very durable and interesting in appearance. I don't know that it is cheaper or less dirty, but it could be. http://thefishleather.co
I've long joked we're going to create clothes out of fungus that lives off dead skin cells. And cure baldness the same way using Lichen that looks like luxurious hair.
The fun part here is that, technically, once they get a 'good enough' product and workflow up and running, adding/changing/incorporating biological properties is (mostly) just a DNA-based bit-flip away.
We at Serotiny are already collecting protein domains from organisms with various capabilities - including water solubility, hydrophobicity, enzymatic capabilities, covalent attachment sites (for dyes), light-activated properties/crosslinking/dissociation/etc. And all of those protein domains we're collecting should be 100% compatible (+/- a fair bit of a tooling-exercise) with both Bolt's leather and their silk.
So it should get fun once they have a solid and stable 'platform' up and running. They will be able to incorporate most any property from nature with an existing proof of principal, not just any property form mammalian hides.
As someone who does a fair bit of sewing I have to wonder if this is going to behave more like a "fabric" with leather like qualities.
From the description (and it isn't much) I'm guessing that this is going to drape much like felt. Is that close to leather? Well it is closer than most woven fabrics but leather and felt behave much differently.
I would also expect that this is going to cost far more than actual leather does.
I certainly wouldn't mind my next metal battle vest out of mycelium leather, just for the geek cred, deck it out with hardwood studs and do an enviro theme thing.
Well leather isn't really water resistant to begin with: ask any biker. It'll hold up to a light rain, but anything more you shouldn't expose leather to unless it's been waxed relatively recently. And once it is wet, if you dry it too quickly (like on a radiator) it'll likely shrivel up permanently, dry it too slow and it might rot.
Really the bar is set quite low for fake leather being waterproof.
Most hot-stuffed pull-up leathers are water resistant because of the incredible amount of waxes and oils added. Pull-up leather is often used in boots and duffels for that reason. Veg tan leathers can be made water resistent with Resolene or a TON of surfaces waxes like Carnauba.
I suppose I didn't consider the amount of additives in current leathers. What are the production costs (environmental, rather than monetary) of the waterproofing? It would be a shame to have something that has very limited impact on the environment being used as a substitute for leather, only to find out the post processing is also quite damaging.
Very fun. A number of new players here. I look forward to the more exotic possibilities downstream. Integrating other biological capabilities, relaxing size, thickness, supplychain constraints, being part of a genetically-dynamic R&D process.
I'm curious about the different approaches between Bolt (who've so far at least been focused on fermentation) and Modern Meadow - versus newer smaller players like Provenance.
This is incredibly exciting from an environmental standpoint alone, let alone the implications for future materials research. I'm curious about the processing steps required to create the end product and the resulting durability.
In their FAQ, I think they should address the question, "Is it possible that mold will grow from Mylo?" I'm sure the answer is no, but they should state it explicitly.
Can somebody explain how this is different to the "pleather" being made as a side-product from the production of Kombucha? Thats been a thing for a while now.
AFAIK its also grown by mould, from culture. But, it forms as a mat on top of the Kombucha fermenting liquid.
Here is what they say about pleather in their Sustainability section:
Mylo is also a more sustainable option than synthetic leathers, most of which are made from polyurethane or PVC, These so-called ‘pleathers’ are manufactured using numerous toxic chemicals. While not proven to be dangerous to humans during use, these toxic chemistries persist in the landfills and groundwater where they end up.
Reading elsewhere, it doesn't look like Kombucha is a pleather. If not, then they are different processes for creating different materials that are substitutes for leather.
(please help me where I'm wrong other scientists... But here's my basic knowledge.)
Leather as you know it are combinations a few different (known) structural proteins secreted from mammals between skin cells, after the skin cells themselves have been removed, and the proteins become chemically glued together (cross-linked). The majority of that protein is collagen.
Plether is a plastic fiber (petroleum derivative) that is spun and processed in such a way as to have an appearance similar to the final leather product (kind of, close enough). It's not protein-based in any way.
This new leather, 'Mylo', is a protein-based 'fabric' where the base protein is secreted by fungi rather than mammals. However, fungi are similar enough to mammals evolutionarily, that the proteins they secrete are evolutionary related to those secreted by our own cells to make our skin. The primary protein in both cases is collagen. Additionally, fungi genetics are easily manipulable, so you can actually insert the DNA that encodes for mammal-like collagen, other proteins found in animal leather, or proteins with new or completely different functions that would never show up on the skin of a mammal (color, water resistance, enzymatic capabilities, etc.).
tldr: Pleather is nothing like animal leather chemically - but has some similar bulk properties. This new MyLo is chemically related (evolutionarily) to animal leather, but ultimately comes from fungi. But because it's genetically known, it can actually include new capabilities that cannot be found in animal leather.
Yes, like us, fungi are opisthokonts, but where collagen is the mammalian structural protein used for making leather, fungal hyphae are principally comprised of chitin—structurally closer to the polysaccharide cellulose of the mentioned "kombucha leather" than to the collagen protein. Collagen is present in fungi in certain edge cases, but bulk mycelium is mostly chitin. This is speculation, but leather made from chitin may actually be a bit stronger than animal leather made from collagen. Maybe closer to keratin in strength? (Interestingly, keratin is chemically cleaved in hides during leather production--not entirely sure why, to enhance flexibility and allow access to the collagen fibers?). Agreed about fungi being easier to engineer. As you point out, endogenous expression of dyes in hyphae for different colors of mycelial leather is compelling. GFP would be cool too for the rave and nightclub crowd.
The Quorn meat analogue[1] is another product made from compressed mycelium. I've had "chicken" nuggets made from it. They're...not bad, but as far as mycelial structures go I prefer mushrooms.
I'm curious to know how well this new material handles exposure to humidity/water, as I've grown some of the kombucha leather and its durability seemed to go out the window once it becomes wet (and possibly is exposed to significant humidity).
Would this be a good candidate to use as a synthetic skin for touch-able robots and devices? I've thought for awhile that leather might be good for that, but something like this which could be grown with electronics, heating elements, and other things embedded directly into it would probably be much better!
technically toilet paper is "strong, abrasion resistant".
But since they did not mention durability anywhere on the marketing speak, that means even their marketeer couldn't find a way to lie about durability qualities. Unfortunately nothing to see here :(
I was going to make a similar post. I'd love a green alternative but so far I haven't found anything that performs or looks as good as genuine leather motorcycle jacket.
Leather is still superior for high speed slides. Something about its ability to stretch and conform slightly to the road surface, I believe. It doesn't really matter for road riding, but for racing, leather is still the way to go.
The problem with pleather, in my experience, isn't that it feels insufficiently leather-like. The appearance is also just fine; the tendency to fade actually produces a somewhat nice pattern. The real problem is that the durability of most fake leather is drastically inferior to natural leather.
From personal experience, I had a leather jacket which I got in my first year of college (2008) and wore until it was stolen from my car in early 2016, when it was still in nearly-perfect condition (although the zipper got worse). I replaced it with a pleather jacket which has already lost most of the material on the right elbow and may soon develop a hole.
So I hope this mushroom-derived material will be at least somewhat more durable. What I really want to see is a sort of fake leather made from a more resilient polymer, such as polyetherimide or one of the other "high-performance polymers". Until that situation improves, I think I'm going back to cowhide.
I still wear the leather motorcycle jacket I bought when I moved to Seattle in 1999. (I didn't even own a motorcycle then; I just bought it because it looked cool!) I've had to replace snaps and zipper pulls, but even after years of abuse, including half a dozen unintended close encounters with asphalt, the leather is still holding up fine.
The durability isn't just a nice feature, but for motorcyclists is essential. I haven't found anything that comes close to the abrasion resistance that natural leather has (while looking like a leather jacket, not including things like kevlar for example).
Top it off with durability that can seriously last a lifetime and look better with age, there's no real competition in the synthetic leathers that comes close to the real thing.
I'm not a motorcyclist, and I noticed multiple comments mentioning durability of leather is important for motorcyclists. How come? Is falling off a common thing with motorcycles? It sure isn't very common with bicycles or cars.
I don’t think it’s about how often. It’s about that one time it happens, you want protection. The skid distance on a motorcycle isn’t comparable to a bicycle.
I wouldn't say it's common, but it does happen. A skid in a car due to something like an oil spill in a corner would be a lowside on a bike, and a bit of a slide. With reasonable gear (leather or high-quality textile, with shock-absorbing pads), it's relatively undramatic, but rather annoying.
It's just the nature of 2-wheeled vehicles of all kinds.
It's not that accidents happen often, it's that they will happen given enough time, and when they do happen you really want to be protected. Even quality thick selvedge denim jeans tear like wet tissue paper in under a second when you slide on pavement. Leather has been long proven to have great abrasion resistance saving yourself from needing a skin graft in the unfortunate event of a slide (which will happen at least once in any motorcyclists career).
I just really wish there was a faux-leather option that looked and performed as well as a real-leather jacket.
the durability of most fake leather is drastically inferior to natural leather
How about Corfam? It was promoted as 'wearing like iron.'
Remember the song from "Oklahoma" about the "Surrey with the Fringe on the Top"? It says, "The dashboard's genuine leather." So what was artificial leather in 1905 Oklahoma? Something like cardboard with wax-paper veneered on, IIRC. Is Mylo better than that?Geniuses been trying a long time to do this. Even money that we'll have tomatoes with leather skins or cows that are born with 'Wilson' on their sides so footballs are easier to make before anything exists that is a better leather than leather.
I found the conversation between Paul Stamets and Joe Rogan to be super interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ . Never really thought much about mushrooms until that episode. This proof of concept seems like a great taste of how much untapped potential fungi have for changing everyday life if we invest more into its research.
I believe they licensed the mycelium technology from a NY based startup called Ecovative, that has been shopping it around for furniture for some time.
Well, I think "advisor" is probably more like it, because it does the science of mycology quite the disservice. Beyond playing fast and loose with the science for the sake of the story, there are basic mistakes that I doubt that the real Paul Stamets would have let slip through.
I wouldn't be surprised if the HN crowd is a bit hostile to FeministFrequency, but if you can skip over that you may enjoy this guest-podcast (meaning none of the FF regulars have anything to do with this particular podcast episode) by Emily Taylor, a mycologist-turned-game designer, where she explains all of the mycology-related issues of the show:
I should have said "significant sub-section", not implied HN as a whole.
I don't think it's controversial to say that the Ven diagrams of start-up loving nerds, and the type of entitled young men who have an axe to grind with FF are likely to have a non-empty intersection.
Yes! It was a good podcast but got incredibly weird at that point. I took him as not a bullshitter so it's either true and something amazing must be being covered up or perhaps he got the wrong end of the stick somehow.
It certainly was a weird part of the otherwise fascinating podcast.
I did a bit of digging after the show, he said that it would be "an explosive issue" or something- but the way he emphasized "explosive" made me think it was a hint- and so it was.
Turns out portobello mushrooms contain a decently large amount of agaritine, which can be made in to hydrazine, which can in turn be used for explosives or rocket fuel. Agaritine is also fairly cancerous/mutagenic to humans.
That's my best bet as to why he wouldn't talk about it, though the threat to his life I would think is more for comic effect.
This was my first thought. They must have some built in fire retardant layer. Otherwise you a cigarette burn would set you alight. Interesting point, I'm not sure how fast it burns. It might just smolder away. Still not desirable!
I've never used that particular mushroom before, but you can use polyporous mushrooms as tinder if you find them in the wilderness.
The flammability is measured by the fact that they burn very slowly, like charcoals. On the flip side, they easily take sparks and aren't necessarily obvious that they're burning until they start getting pretty hot. While this makes them ideal for lighting fires with in damp areas, I would think it makes them a poor choice for headwear -- though of course cotton and felt hats take to flame pretty easily too.
...my impression (not dispelled or even challenged by their marketing materials) is that we currently have effectively surplus hides as a side effect of raising animals for meat, milk, and other purposes.
So when they say:
> Livestock use an astonishing 30% of the earth’s entire land surface and cattle-rearing generates more global warming greenhouse gases, as measured in carbon dioxide equivalent, than all transportation methods. Put simply, as disposable incomes rise around the globe, we simply can’t meet the demand for meat — and leather consumer goods — using resources available on the planet.
That seems to be about 90% true (but irrelevant) and 10% questionable. Livestock are very expensive environmentally, and as the world gets richer we will certainly struggle to support the current meat-heavy western diet for billions more people. But that still means we're going to be producing an enormous torrent of hides (more now than today). Are we really going to struggle to find enough hides to meet global demand for leather good? Prices for raw inputs have been remarkably flat for the past ~20 years (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WPU04190108).
Even from the perspective of minimising animal cruelty, leather from animals that would already be raised and killed for meat or because they were ending their useful life on a dairy farm isn't especially problematic.
Further:
> We carefully control the mycelium’s growth conditions to produce a substrate that can be cured and tanned into a soft, supple material that looks and feels like leather.
So it still needs to be cured and tanned. Which no doubt helps it be a great leather substitute, but much of the cost (monetary and environmental) of leather isn't the hides, it's the curing and tanning process, which can use some pretty harsh chemicals. Another reason to be skeptical that this is a huge improvement environmentally.
I also note there's no real discussion of price. If this process can turn out finished leather more cheaply than traditional methods, that's a big sign this is more efficient environmentally. If it can't (and the silence is interesting), it raises the question of whether this is actually worse for the environment. (Which wouldn't be that hard to imagine!)
In short: Totally cool! But so far it doesn't look like a "we're going to get rich while saving the planet" kind of thing, more like a "maybe some vegans will pay a premium for a really good fake leather jacket" kind of thing. Also good! But not as amazing as they try to make it sound.
Maybe it makes more sense to view this in concert with other similar efforts to address different uses of livestock? Like, to replace all the uses of a cow with synthetics, you need lab-grown meat and lab-grown milk and lab-grown leather, and ...
And there are startups addressing each of these, independently of one another.
Sure, but it'd be a shame to reach that point on the meat front and then still have to keep growing cattle for the leather while the textile technologies catch up. Why not do both now?
Chances are you'd be growing a whole mix of cow parts at first and have to figure out how to differentiate them for the vats, so I doubt it'd be a problem. By the time vat meat works properly, you'd probably have the right knowledge and tech to grow cow hide by the mile simultaneously.
Cool product, it just bothers me that they describe mycelium as the "underground root structure of mushrooms". That's like saying the rest of a plant is just part of a flower.
This is exciting for new leather products, I'd like to see how a pair of boxing gloves or a pair of Thai pads made from such a material hold up. As for other leather goods. I usually just buy them second hand from a goodwill or something. Almost, Second-hand anything is good for the environment.
Funny thing I am not sure what fungus it is. However, I have pulled small sheets of material that is almost like leather out from beneath the bark on firewood when splitting it. It's very white kinda soft too.
I wonder if this is the same thing, and then they just dye it.
Would love to see micrographs of the finished materials. Fungi possess wonderfully dense cobweb-like fibres. A terrific example of highly connected random graphs in nature!
Very cool, but really wonder what the durability is. Is it more like faux leather which might be used as an accent or is it something you could actually use structurally.
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[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 223 ms ] threadhttps://undark.org/article/leather-tanning-bangladesh-india/
But I could be wrong. Just speculating. Better than plastic for sure if enough strong and can be certified non-allergenig or a cause of asthma.
But on the plus side a leather jacket can last a lifetime. And they cost mid-hundreds to low-thousands for a decent one so people aren’t buying as many of them as they would a $15 plastic / polyester throwaway jacket from wal mart.
(For the record I'm all for eating meat, but I agree that beef is unsustainably bad for the environment compared to other animal options like poultry and eggs.)
As long as the demand for some product causes the animal to be raised, the undesirable parts will become by-products.
A competitor for leather would depress the price of animal leather, which would tend to raise the price of meat, probably disproportionately for the best cuts. Forelegs, brains, and chitterlings would go up a few cents a pound, while tongues and tenderloins would go up by dollars per pound.
That might encourage people to eat less meat, but it might also encourage them to substitute the cheaper cuts of meat--which include the skins. Rawhide soup, anyone?
I'm assuming here that by mentioning it in the same sentence as you say beef is bad for the environment, you are talking about being for meat production on a global scale, and not just for your personal preference.
If we mostly eliminate beef (in favor of artificially-grown beef, for instance, which might be a reality in 10-20 years), that'll make cowhides much, much more expensive, so people simply won't be getting leather car seats, leather coats, etc., except maybe for extremely high-end markets.
This is a false problem.
Clothes are more than fashion. Leather extracted from dead animals is a big ally against animal cruelty and I'm not trolling. Lets remember why we use it. It saves millions of worker humans from having horrible injuries, painful deep cuts and mutilations.
Could workers rely equally in mycelium for not losing a finger or a leg by a saw if they stumble?
Is mycelium flammable? When I'm using an arc welding torch I want to wear a solid >1mm leather apron. If something goes wrong, leather will save my arms and body from a severe burning. Can filosophy or whisful thinking do the same for me?.
I would not hire a vegan worker if they stubbornly refuse to wear protective clothes arguing that we have pleather that "looks the same" (and burns like gasoline). Would be really irresponsible on my part to hire them.
> on the plus side a leather jacket can last a lifetime, vs polyester throwaway...
100% agree with this
Here are some options I've seen but I really have no idea if they're good enough:
* https://www.amazon.com/Ironclad-HW6X-04-L-Heatworx-Heavy-Glo...
* https://www.amazon.com/ThxToms-932%C2%B0F-Resistant-Kevlar-G...
* https://apparelsolutionsinternational.com/products/fr-covera...
To me, the question is not whether the alternatives would be as good as leather but would be a good enough alternative to leather.
It depends of what she/he consider protective gear. Kevlar is fine. Anything that is regulated, lawful, well tested, reliable and covered by the assurance is fine. Those new materials can't still be trusted at the same level and you don't want to be the first to discover in your company that they are acid permeable or burn like a torch when react with some chemical
To let some of your employees work with a lower protection against accidents than other employees, would be negligent and easily prosecutable in court. The non-vegane parents of a vegane killed in an accident would not doubt a second to sue you in this case.
Obviously, it all comes down to balancing needs and risks. I just thought I'd point out how you can meet or exceed one requirement (flameproofing) but potentially create a new risk in the process.
I wear leather gloves, but wouldn't hesitate to use a knitted Kevlar alternative, especially since it would insulate much better.
Synthetic meat will be relegated to junk food status unless they hide the source and process from consumers, that's even if it makes it out of the lab into wide-scale manufacturing.
It can be identical with synthetic vs natural meat. Price can make the difference, and we can still reduce massively the amount of livestock we breed (e.g. make the farms more environmentally-friendly through regulation)
Having just been on vacation in Malaga (highly recommended), Jamon Iberico Bellota -- the highest-quality ham from acorn-fed black iberian pigs -- is absolutely, genuinely so superior to lesser hams that it's not even funny. There is just no comparison.
It also costs at least €130/kg even the smallest local ham stores, so yes it is prohibitively expensive, you can expect to pay at least twice that for the genuine stuff, if you're not in Andalusia.
How much of the taste is because the diet, and how much is because of the breed? Who knows, but I think it's a combination.
Bellota (acorn) the diet. You can find intermediate categories like "50% raza ibérica" or "recebo" for both.
If you're ever in Malaga, hit up Azabache in the old part of town. One hell of a shop for ham and cheese and a bit of seafood.
The genetics of the "iberian black pig" are different in a surpsiging way. Studies have shown that their meet contains a lot more monounsaturated fats (The good oil, like olive oil) than other pigs. When raised on acorn and free-roaming, their bodies carry out more endogenous lipolysis. So it's considered a healthy meat to consume (and is raised sustainably to boot).
[0] https://www.uco.es/dptos/prod-animal/economia/dehesa/salud.h... [1] http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/19/1/22/pdf
Not that I necessarily disagree with your overall point, though.
Considering that most of US beef comes from factory farms, the concept of the "happy cow" is nearly mythological. Given the choice, I would rather not exist than play those odds.
Prepared properly, they have jelly-like texture and taste earthy. Great in soup and spicy dishes.
Fresh from farm: https://imgur.com/05LFWnq
Final product before cooking: https://imgur.com/tqICpVR
Sadly it seems the products based on it did take off enough for it to become a thing (especially since he seemed to be doing his best to also ensure the local economy of the places where this material would be produced would benefit from it). The project got turned into a foundation that tries to support a local economy and design community, so who knows, it might make a comeback in a few years[2].
More recently Veenhoven has been developing pigments from discarded tulip flower heads[3], and fabrics based on algae[4].
[0] http://www.tjeerdveenhoven.com/portfolio_page/palm-leather/
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo7Zfw8eLso
[2] http://www.tjeerdveenhoven.com/portfolio_page/wishful-doing-...
[3] http://www.tjeerdveenhoven.com/portfolio_page/tulip-pigments...
[4] http://www.tjeerdveenhoven.com/portfolio_page/algaefabrics/
http://www.instructables.com/id/Urine-Tanned-Salmon-Leather/
It's not that it has a throat to cut or a brain to kill.
I do some leatherwork for fun and there's a lot of things that make it hard to replace. We'll see how it holds up when stitched.
I'm very open to trying it out, though. And maybe an upholstery waterproofer would do the job.
We at Serotiny are already collecting protein domains from organisms with various capabilities - including water solubility, hydrophobicity, enzymatic capabilities, covalent attachment sites (for dyes), light-activated properties/crosslinking/dissociation/etc. And all of those protein domains we're collecting should be 100% compatible (+/- a fair bit of a tooling-exercise) with both Bolt's leather and their silk.
So it should get fun once they have a solid and stable 'platform' up and running. They will be able to incorporate most any property from nature with an existing proof of principal, not just any property form mammalian hides.
Congratulations guys!
From the description (and it isn't much) I'm guessing that this is going to drape much like felt. Is that close to leather? Well it is closer than most woven fabrics but leather and felt behave much differently.
I would also expect that this is going to cost far more than actual leather does.
Really the bar is set quite low for fake leather being waterproof.
Source: I work with a lot of leather.
I'm curious about the different approaches between Bolt (who've so far at least been focused on fermentation) and Modern Meadow - versus newer smaller players like Provenance.
http://www.modernmeadow.com
http://provenance.bio
Stupid me, I forgot that reddit invented superfluous internet discourse.
(don't bother explaining what you meant by it; I get it. I just think that it's a silly way to convey that message.)
(i'll get my coat)
AFAIK its also grown by mould, from culture. But, it forms as a mat on top of the Kombucha fermenting liquid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds8ZFzOwGeI
Mylo is also a more sustainable option than synthetic leathers, most of which are made from polyurethane or PVC, These so-called ‘pleathers’ are manufactured using numerous toxic chemicals. While not proven to be dangerous to humans during use, these toxic chemistries persist in the landfills and groundwater where they end up.
Reading elsewhere, it doesn't look like Kombucha is a pleather. If not, then they are different processes for creating different materials that are substitutes for leather.
Leather as you know it are combinations a few different (known) structural proteins secreted from mammals between skin cells, after the skin cells themselves have been removed, and the proteins become chemically glued together (cross-linked). The majority of that protein is collagen.
Plether is a plastic fiber (petroleum derivative) that is spun and processed in such a way as to have an appearance similar to the final leather product (kind of, close enough). It's not protein-based in any way.
This new leather, 'Mylo', is a protein-based 'fabric' where the base protein is secreted by fungi rather than mammals. However, fungi are similar enough to mammals evolutionarily, that the proteins they secrete are evolutionary related to those secreted by our own cells to make our skin. The primary protein in both cases is collagen. Additionally, fungi genetics are easily manipulable, so you can actually insert the DNA that encodes for mammal-like collagen, other proteins found in animal leather, or proteins with new or completely different functions that would never show up on the skin of a mammal (color, water resistance, enzymatic capabilities, etc.).
tldr: Pleather is nothing like animal leather chemically - but has some similar bulk properties. This new MyLo is chemically related (evolutionarily) to animal leather, but ultimately comes from fungi. But because it's genetically known, it can actually include new capabilities that cannot be found in animal leather.
The Quorn meat analogue[1] is another product made from compressed mycelium. I've had "chicken" nuggets made from it. They're...not bad, but as far as mycelial structures go I prefer mushrooms.
1. http://www.misac.org.uk/PDFs/MiSAC_Briefings_1.pdf
But since they did not mention durability anywhere on the marketing speak, that means even their marketeer couldn't find a way to lie about durability qualities. Unfortunately nothing to see here :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDPcFGV9vPg
From personal experience, I had a leather jacket which I got in my first year of college (2008) and wore until it was stolen from my car in early 2016, when it was still in nearly-perfect condition (although the zipper got worse). I replaced it with a pleather jacket which has already lost most of the material on the right elbow and may soon develop a hole.
So I hope this mushroom-derived material will be at least somewhat more durable. What I really want to see is a sort of fake leather made from a more resilient polymer, such as polyetherimide or one of the other "high-performance polymers". Until that situation improves, I think I'm going back to cowhide.
Top it off with durability that can seriously last a lifetime and look better with age, there's no real competition in the synthetic leathers that comes close to the real thing.
It's just the nature of 2-wheeled vehicles of all kinds.
I just really wish there was a faux-leather option that looked and performed as well as a real-leather jacket.
How about Corfam? It was promoted as 'wearing like iron.'
Remember the song from "Oklahoma" about the "Surrey with the Fringe on the Top"? It says, "The dashboard's genuine leather." So what was artificial leather in 1905 Oklahoma? Something like cardboard with wax-paper veneered on, IIRC. Is Mylo better than that?Geniuses been trying a long time to do this. Even money that we'll have tomatoes with leather skins or cows that are born with 'Wilson' on their sides so footballs are easier to make before anything exists that is a better leather than leather.
Proof: website: https://www.ecovativedesign.com/
The picture of “Paul” is Paul Stamets, The Godfather of Fungus.
Huh -- I guess that's the source of the name of the engineer on Star Trek: Discovery (also Paul Stamets). He works with the "mycelial network."
I wouldn't be surprised if the HN crowd is a bit hostile to FeministFrequency, but if you can skip over that you may enjoy this guest-podcast (meaning none of the FF regulars have anything to do with this particular podcast episode) by Emily Taylor, a mycologist-turned-game designer, where she explains all of the mycology-related issues of the show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqwe016dDpA&t=1m48s
I don't think it's controversial to say that the Ven diagrams of start-up loving nerds, and the type of entitled young men who have an axe to grind with FF are likely to have a non-empty intersection.
Amazing podcast. Well worth a listen.
It certainly was a weird part of the otherwise fascinating podcast.
Turns out portobello mushrooms contain a decently large amount of agaritine, which can be made in to hydrazine, which can in turn be used for explosives or rocket fuel. Agaritine is also fairly cancerous/mutagenic to humans.
That's my best bet as to why he wouldn't talk about it, though the threat to his life I would think is more for comic effect.
The flammability is measured by the fact that they burn very slowly, like charcoals. On the flip side, they easily take sparks and aren't necessarily obvious that they're burning until they start getting pretty hot. While this makes them ideal for lighting fires with in damp areas, I would think it makes them a poor choice for headwear -- though of course cotton and felt hats take to flame pretty easily too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJL-wZHkQuM
...my impression (not dispelled or even challenged by their marketing materials) is that we currently have effectively surplus hides as a side effect of raising animals for meat, milk, and other purposes.
So when they say:
> Livestock use an astonishing 30% of the earth’s entire land surface and cattle-rearing generates more global warming greenhouse gases, as measured in carbon dioxide equivalent, than all transportation methods. Put simply, as disposable incomes rise around the globe, we simply can’t meet the demand for meat — and leather consumer goods — using resources available on the planet.
That seems to be about 90% true (but irrelevant) and 10% questionable. Livestock are very expensive environmentally, and as the world gets richer we will certainly struggle to support the current meat-heavy western diet for billions more people. But that still means we're going to be producing an enormous torrent of hides (more now than today). Are we really going to struggle to find enough hides to meet global demand for leather good? Prices for raw inputs have been remarkably flat for the past ~20 years (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WPU04190108).
Even from the perspective of minimising animal cruelty, leather from animals that would already be raised and killed for meat or because they were ending their useful life on a dairy farm isn't especially problematic.
Further:
> We carefully control the mycelium’s growth conditions to produce a substrate that can be cured and tanned into a soft, supple material that looks and feels like leather.
So it still needs to be cured and tanned. Which no doubt helps it be a great leather substitute, but much of the cost (monetary and environmental) of leather isn't the hides, it's the curing and tanning process, which can use some pretty harsh chemicals. Another reason to be skeptical that this is a huge improvement environmentally.
I also note there's no real discussion of price. If this process can turn out finished leather more cheaply than traditional methods, that's a big sign this is more efficient environmentally. If it can't (and the silence is interesting), it raises the question of whether this is actually worse for the environment. (Which wouldn't be that hard to imagine!)
In short: Totally cool! But so far it doesn't look like a "we're going to get rich while saving the planet" kind of thing, more like a "maybe some vegans will pay a premium for a really good fake leather jacket" kind of thing. Also good! But not as amazing as they try to make it sound.
And there are startups addressing each of these, independently of one another.
I wonder if this is the same thing, and then they just dye it.
-Edit- It usually looks like this, but sometimes grows into like a sheet between the bark, and wood. https://projects.ncsu.edu/cals/course/pp728/Armillaria/fans....
Would love to see micrographs of the finished materials. Fungi possess wonderfully dense cobweb-like fibres. A terrific example of highly connected random graphs in nature!
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Scanning-Electron-Microg...