Ask HN: Who else hates iTunes?

75 points by dzohrob ↗ HN
Hi HN—

I've been chewing on different side project ideas and I've become fixated on creating an alternative Apple Music player.

I spend ~10h a day (or more!) at my desktop, mostly coding and listening to music. And iTunes, my primary music player and browser, is awful -- bloated, slow, and tied to an ecosystem of hardware music players that's basically irrelevant to how I listen now.

I want to build a new, minimal Apple Music client that lets you play everything from AM with a clean, attractive interface, and consumes minimal resources.

Some potential features/additions: - Daily/weekly links to reviews from AllMusic, Pitchfork, NYTimes, etc, so you can listen to albums alongside the reviews - Better sorting and organization of albums in iTunes -- eliminate duplicates/remasters, categorize into "real" albums vs EPs and compilations, etc - Social features that don't suck, based on your existing social networks (email, twtr, fb, etc) - Better recommendations by artist, album, genre, etc - TimeHop-style features for music from different years

Anyone else have this problem with iTunes? Any thoughts/feedback?

59 comments

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One thing very at odds with Apple's design etiquette with iTunes is there are a lot of message dialogs that block the whole ui. Typically a message dialog that blocked things underneath it would be a last resort, and of all things in a music player app.

One example is if you have a song in your queue and press play on another song you get a message (which of course blocks the UI):

"You are about to start playback. Do you want to clear the song previously added to Up Next?" [Play song] [Cancel] [Clear Song]

agree, the modals are insane! iOS does better, it's pretty crazy how poorly the desktop has kept up.
sorry for asking this. Why can't you use something else?
Good point. Maybe the question should really be [Ask HN]: Are there any decent iTunes alternatives?
Wine + Winamp. :D
Nothing else works with Siri. That's it. iTunes and Apple Music are terrible to use. But my kids can use it with Siri and I can use it in the car. Only reason I'm still on the platform.
Fair question. I am an Apple Music subscriber, so iTunes is the only Apple Music desktop client I'm aware of.
I honestly have stopped buying iPhones just to stop having to deal with that utter pile of rubbish that iTunes is. It was maddening riddled with bugs and just hopelessly hacked up on Windows, way beyond the amount I could find acceptable.
It seems like Apple has been doing away with the iTunes dependency, albeit slowly. You have been able to update without iTunes for a couple of years and more recently the awful Apps syncing was removed too.

Also, introduction of iCloud sync for files and backup vs. iTunes local sync.

I have been using iPhones since the first one and haven't had a reason to launch iTunes last 3-4 years I guess. Was this before then?
It used to be OK but it's gotten worse and worse, to the point where it's hardly usable - both on OSX and on iOS. I miss the foobar2000 days on windows! One thing I do like about iTunes is the ability to browse music by artist, by album, etc.
It's proprietary and full if DrM. Of course it sucks. Just pirate your music.
When your ten year old kid tells you they hate a piece of software that should be all you need to know.

It's atrociously bad.

I admire your goal, but my first question is, have you tried Foobar2000? You could create a theme that has most of your features, and at heart it is nicely minimalist.
Foobar for interface, beats[http://beets.io/] for library organization. It's the perfect combination for any tech-savvy Windows user.
First I’ve heard about Beets, and omg thank you! I’m just what it says, An “obsessive-compulsive music geek...” I’m going to have some real fun with this baby.
Never heard of it, but looks interesting - thanks for sharing. I probably should've been more clear that after decades of curating my MP3 collection, I've moved towards streaming and rarely dig deep into my library for the ripped tracks that aren't available to stream.
After 15 years on iTunes, and much devotion towards keeping a clean library of music that I ripped or purchased, Apple Music ruined it for me.

Especially in iOS, where it did not understand the concept of not having a constant internet connection, like it was implemented by some 21 year-old newb that had never made any production code in their life. This made Apple Music completely useless for my primary use case; driving along the coast on Highway 1.

And that's not even getting to their poor aping of Spotify's UI, without even understanding what makes Spotify work, and mucking up everything in the process. And the atrociously non-functional and ugly flat UI with no communication about what you can tap and what is not tappable.

Never again will Apple Music get any of my money, and never again will I trust Apple with my music. It was a major turning point in everything I do with them; I've always had easy escape routes for all my data to leave the Apple ecosystem, but it was the first time I had to use one in practice.

I've switched to Spotify, abandoning all my investment of time and money into my music library. I don't have time to invest in that anymore.

Building an app on top of anything Apple Music is folly, you'll always be fighting against their changes in formats, and you can be locked out at any moment.

Everything you said also applies to closed source software, along with SaaS offerings.

We are only 1 change from having our house of cards toppled, if we depend on their being consistent. And that can change for them, say, if making X change makes them a fistfull of dollars, they will to the detriment of users.

Sure, in your case, Spotify makes sense. Cool. Unfortunately, they are 1 or 2 major changes that alienate their user base. Id rather have control and ownership of my data. And yes, that does mean some growing pains in how to do that effectively. But it also means some arbitrary choice in a boardroom doesn't affect me.

Yep, always have an escape plan. This is as true for real life dependencies as it is for electronic life dependencies.
Spotify has also made me completely abandoned any type of local music library (it even offers to save for offline use which I do often for road trips or flights). I do buy vinyl and spend money there but can't imagine ever going back to any other structure besides paying a streaming service for digital music. It's been great not having to constantly configure foobar or figure out syncing between devices.
The only time I've felt a strong urge to write to Apple was in regards to iTunes and my complete disbelief that they still haven't figured it out decades in. It's shockingly bad.
It's pretty much universally accepted that iTunes is a giant bloated mess.

However,there's other audio players and media organization programs, why not use one of those instead? I only know of Clementine, which is open source. I can't vouch for it's features or anything - I only know it exists.

Edit: I guess the question is about Apple Music, specifically, my first read through I thought you meant you were playing raw MP3s. So disregard this post.

Spotify has quite a few of the features you're looking for already. Why reinvent the wheel? It costs about the same as Apple Music, and I have very few complaints with the apps and desktop client. There's also quite a bit of IFTTT compatibility and a (from what I've heard) decent API.
One thing I love about Apple Music are the Radio 1 shows - the back catalog of sessions are some of the most incredible sets of music ever. Finding them and playing is incredibly frustrating with iTunes - it sucks big time. Is the main reason I gave up on Apple Music. If you can improve this part it would be great.
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The reason I use iTunes...have to use Itunes...is because:

* I love high quality audio books

* I use a classic iPod

* Audible is really the main game in town.

I think of ditching the iPod and using the Android App, but that makes me a bit sad.

What I'd really like is a Keyboard Kindle with 160GB of storage (I like knowing things are on the device) and some enhanced audiobook features. That's kind of my dream really. Which let's face it is unlikely to turn up soon.

I used to have an iPod too, but the hard-drive eventually gave out.

What I did was get a dedicated android device for audible/music. One of those that looks like a mobile but doesn't have a sim card. A lot of people comment on how I could simply be using my phone instead, but you get a surprising amount of battery life out of a device that doesn't have cellphone, wifi or bluetooth active. And as a bonus, unlike my iPod I can simply flip on the wifi temporarily to sync up instead of having to plug into my computer.

It's a decent idea and I have been tending towards it. The main reason I like the non-phone device is literally the fact that there is no internet. I like my reading devices to be offline (or at least functionally offline)...so no data is a feature not a problem.
I just want them to fix bugs that have been outstanding for the last year plus. The one that gets me the most is the box that says something about folllowing friends. There’s a close button that closes it but as soon as you go back to the page it shows up again.
iTunes has the single worst UI of any app, of any kind, I have used in the last 20 years. The page flow makes no sense. I can never remember how to get to certain pages, or out of certain pages. There is no flow. Important functions are buried where I least expect. I can't use it without a search engine handy, and there is no excuse for this.

Worse, it is 100% guaranteed that if I use it across devices, then eventually my library will be destroyed on one of those devices, because they've made syncing about as intuitive as git.

The 'normies' in my family also cannot figure out how to use it effectively, at all, and for once I can't help them. Apple must have no incentive whatsoever to fix any of this.

As time passed I found myself using Apple apps less and less.

They just go so ridiculously bad: form over function, buggy software, worse UI and features compared to competitors.

Been on Spotify family plan for years. Never touch music files anymore. I see no point to iTunes anymore.
Wow I thought I was an outlier, because I've never been able to get the hang of iTunes. I occasionally touch it with a 10 foot pole when I have to get something off my phone.

But I had assumed that almost everyone uses it now. Or maybe it's less popular than in the iPod days, because the phones/ipads are more independent.

My friend just recommended a podcast, and I didn't even realize that iTunes is where you get a lot of podcasts! I've never even tried.

Anyway, for buying music, I use Amazon's MP3 service and recommend it. You just download the album as a .zip file. Then I put it on my own music server. (I guess this is another reason I'm a dinosaur; I prefer listening to an entire album over streaming individual songs.

I switched to Spotify for awhile, but the quality was noticeably bad on my speakers. I use Sonos and when hooked up to good speakers, you can really tell. Amazon MP3s sound indistinguishable from the original recordings. And even streaming Amazon music, but not Spotify.

All signs point to Apple revamping iTunes in the coming year/s, likely by splitting out the Music and TV portions into their own apps. This could come as soon as WWDC with the expected announcement of the unified app development framework; I seem to remember there being evidence that Apple Music on iOS is already using some of this technology, though I can't find a source right off.
Out of the mountain of other issues I have with iTunes, the most frustrating has been the lack of "tooltips" which combined with the ever shifting, and bat-shit-crazy UI makes using iTunes psychosis inducing.
I use iTunes 10. It's responsive, does everything I want and still has iTunes DJ which is the best method I've found for listening to random things from my music collection.
I love iTunes. For more than a decade it has been the most important non-work-related software I have.

11,300 songs

800 music videos

50 movies

1100 TV episodes

80+ playlists

I would be hopelessly lost without it.

Thanks for the counterpoint, I appreciate it. FWIW I've generally stuck with it since 2003, but I've been more and more frustrated with it recently.