That said there still seem to be a reasonable number of cases where body cams coincidentally don’t record events where they’re accused of misbehaving :-/
The story is backwards, the cops acted unprofessionally and disrespectfully from the very start, which can only ever cause escalation of hostilities. Hiding your vitriol behind flowery words does not change the intention or the disrespect which is expressed to his subject. His victim is aware of his disrespect, and so are "you" so don't pretend you aren't.
When you are a witness to verbal abuse, if the abuser disguises his abusive language using strategically chosen vocabulary, you are _obligated_ as a witness to recognize the abusive treatment. If you participate in the scene by defending the abuser, pretending that you can't see the disrespect in their choice of words, then you share in their guilt for contributing to the social rot of our culture.
That's not a statement of judgement towards anyone, but rather a recognition of our basic social obligations.
I think the officers are right in saying that the legal details aren't her affairs -- unless she wants to make them hers by asking the (adult) kids what happened.
I kind of feel he wouldn't tell her because of the way she approached him initially, and then had to stick to his guns, so to speak. He even kind of admits it later.
That's not meant to be a criticism - just a description of what happened. I think his guard went up based on her initial approach.
I'm probably one of the most anti-cop people on Hacker News, and buddy, you have it wrong. Even I can't find much objectionable about how these police officers handled the situation.
I could only stand to watch about a minute of the video, but the two things which stand out the most are the cop calling the lady "Miss" even after she corrected him, in an intentional display of disrespect toward her.
The second big red flag is that he refused to answer her question. She asked why they were pulled over. He refused repeatedly to answer, and told her to ask the driver of the vehicle. Then he told her to check public records. These people are paid to _serve_ us, not to belittle us and make our lives hell. "SERVE" is not a mistake of vocabulary, it's an intentionally chosen word to describe the relationship which police are _required_ to maintain with the citizens of their jurisdictions.
The behaviors the cop displays are literally "anti-social", in the clinical sense, and people who are "anti-social" cannot be trusted with positions of authority in our communities.
Was the lady wrong to attempt to abuse her position? Sure. But the cops were wrong for the same things that cops are _ALWAYS_ wrong for. They're control freaks, they're selfish and self-centered, they diminish other people to empower themselves. The quoted obscenity in the headline is a response to the officer saying "You make take them now", is it any surprise this set her off? He's bossing her around like he's her father, but he's just some nobody making $25k/yr pretending to be something he is not, a hero.
Here's the only thing that matters, the lady is an upset private citizen. Her behavior is understandable, considering the circumstances. The cop has no excuse for his behavior. Everything else is frankly window dressing.
> But the cops were wrong for the same things that cops are _ALWAYS_ wrong for. They're control freaks, they're selfish and self-centered, they diminish other people to empower themselves. The quoted obscenity in the headline is a response to the officer saying "You make take them now", is it any surprise this set her off?
Yes, there are idiots who, when given a uniform are "hard" to deal with...
But in this situation (all over, she is there basically as a taxi driver) I can only say that I would have been much more blunt with her.
You say they are there to "serve us" and I actually mean that: The "us" is better served if they don't engage in pointless discussions but do their actual job instead.
> He's just some nobody making $25k/yr
He might be making only 25k but he is also making a difference. Do you?
my info on cop salaries is heresay and like 20 years old, sorry I did not adjust for inflation.
The point I was making is that police are underpaid, which accurately represents the investment the public is willing to make toward their service. It's shows how much value the public thinks there is in the work that police do.
Which means people don't think cops are serving them properly, if that wasn't obvious. As full time salaries go they are on the lower end of the scale.
> He might be making only 25k but he is also making a difference. Do you?
Everyone makes a difference. Is the difference positive or negative? His impact on the world is negative.
Since you asked, mine is positive. I volunteer to charities and I provide business class high tech services at fractions of the prices of the competition because they're ripping small businesses off and I am attacking them directly.
I would be willing to bet my contributions to the world are more positive and far reaching than any cop anywhere in the world, no matter how great they are (and most are not), in fact. So I feel completely justified and within my rights to judge his behavior in the execution of his duties as a public servant.
> I volunteer to charities and I provide business class high tech services at fractions of the prices of the competition because they're ripping small businesses off and I am attacking them directly. I would be willing to bet my contributions to the world are more positive and far reaching than any cop anywhere in the world, no matter how great they are (and most are not), in fact.
I too work for charities, but that does not entitle me to look down on people who make less than I do (monetarily).
You of course have the right to judge behaviour as you see fit. But I also have that right and I exercise it by openly stating that I think your comment is demeaning.
It's not about the money, I think you didn't understand my point in raising that particular detail. And it's not about looking down on the dude as a person, it's about maintaining a strict scrutiny of every single person who volunteers to execute and apprehend bad people for the benefit of our society.
It is important to remember, that is what Police's actual job is. Traffic stops are a revenue generator for local jurisdictions and represent the most reprehensible aspect of their daily jobs. Their real duty is to kill people for us so we don't have to, or when possible lock them up forever.
I'm not expressing approval of the system, I'm just making sure you understand exactly what it actually is.
So how does that apply to this story? Well the cop is exercising a whole lot of personal bias and judgement and discretionary decision making which _he is not authorized to exercise_. If cops were supposed to use those kinds of skills they'd earn a lot more than the tiny salaries they get, and they would be chosen from the best and brightest, but in fact police departments will refuse to hire you if you're too intelligent because they're afraid intelligence leads to corrupt cops. So you see, they don't get to be discretionary. They follow a script, they perform their duties in a way that shines like well polished boots, they collect their pensions and retire. Period. The behavior in the video is the behavior of a bad cop. It's a sociopath who knows how to push people's buttons while appearing to be controlled and calm. That's a bad cop, and it's important that we never let those people get away with their sociopathic behavior because it poisons our culture.
Giving a sociopath a gun and the authority and responsibility of killing people for you is a recipe for disaster.
The officers handled themselves very professionally. This was a legal traffic stop, the driver was issued a citation for having expired registration. Any legal matter between the driver and the city of Tenafly is between the two parties and other than whatever legal requirements for disclosure are in place for reporting the traffic stop, the mother of the adult has no business involving herself.
For those who want to skip to the conclusion of this confrontation, the commissioner was asked to resign from the port authority after an internal investigation by the port authority regarding her behaviour. She was formerly the head of the Government and Ethics committee.
A. No. While the video shows her haranguing police over the traffic stop, dropping the names of elected officials she knew, and her position as a Port Authority commissioner who oversees 4,000 police officers, the Tenafly police did not charge her with obstruction. But the chief of police made a call to the Port Authority's Inspector General, which led to an internal investigation and ultimately her resignation.
Q. Is the Port Authority taking any further action?
A. Apparently not. A spokesman said the Port Authority board was preparing to form a special committee to review the findings of the Inspector General investigation and take action at this week's board meeting, before Turner submitted her resignation to Gov. Phil Murphy. 'Commissioner Turner's resignation was appropriate given her outrageous conduct,' said the Port Authority spokesman. There has been no indication that anyone else might pursue misconduct charges against her for allegedly misusing her public office."
Her "status" didn't get her what she wanted, but I can't help but feel that conversation went on quite a bit longer than it should have -- because of her status.
The biggest problem with government is that only people who want to be in it are in it. And to want to be in it, especially unpaid positions like hers, people expect to get things out of it.
Maybe we should think about appointing people to these types of low-profile positions, much like how we do Jury duty.
22 comments
[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 11.8 ms ] threadThat said there still seem to be a reasonable number of cases where body cams coincidentally don’t record events where they’re accused of misbehaving :-/
When you are a witness to verbal abuse, if the abuser disguises his abusive language using strategically chosen vocabulary, you are _obligated_ as a witness to recognize the abusive treatment. If you participate in the scene by defending the abuser, pretending that you can't see the disrespect in their choice of words, then you share in their guilt for contributing to the social rot of our culture.
That's not a statement of judgement towards anyone, but rather a recognition of our basic social obligations.
That's not meant to be a criticism - just a description of what happened. I think his guard went up based on her initial approach.
The second big red flag is that he refused to answer her question. She asked why they were pulled over. He refused repeatedly to answer, and told her to ask the driver of the vehicle. Then he told her to check public records. These people are paid to _serve_ us, not to belittle us and make our lives hell. "SERVE" is not a mistake of vocabulary, it's an intentionally chosen word to describe the relationship which police are _required_ to maintain with the citizens of their jurisdictions.
The behaviors the cop displays are literally "anti-social", in the clinical sense, and people who are "anti-social" cannot be trusted with positions of authority in our communities.
Was the lady wrong to attempt to abuse her position? Sure. But the cops were wrong for the same things that cops are _ALWAYS_ wrong for. They're control freaks, they're selfish and self-centered, they diminish other people to empower themselves. The quoted obscenity in the headline is a response to the officer saying "You make take them now", is it any surprise this set her off? He's bossing her around like he's her father, but he's just some nobody making $25k/yr pretending to be something he is not, a hero.
Here's the only thing that matters, the lady is an upset private citizen. Her behavior is understandable, considering the circumstances. The cop has no excuse for his behavior. Everything else is frankly window dressing.
Yes, there are idiots who, when given a uniform are "hard" to deal with...
But in this situation (all over, she is there basically as a taxi driver) I can only say that I would have been much more blunt with her.
You say they are there to "serve us" and I actually mean that: The "us" is better served if they don't engage in pointless discussions but do their actual job instead.
> He's just some nobody making $25k/yr
He might be making only 25k but he is also making a difference. Do you?
https://www.policeapp.com/Entry-Level-Tenafly-NJ-Police-Offi...
> Department: Tenafly Police Department
> Type: Entry Level
> Job Title: Entry Level Police Officer
> Salary: $44,500-$125,000
> Location: Tenafly, NJ
The point I was making is that police are underpaid, which accurately represents the investment the public is willing to make toward their service. It's shows how much value the public thinks there is in the work that police do.
Which means people don't think cops are serving them properly, if that wasn't obvious. As full time salaries go they are on the lower end of the scale.
The actual number is sort of irrelevant.
Everyone makes a difference. Is the difference positive or negative? His impact on the world is negative.
Since you asked, mine is positive. I volunteer to charities and I provide business class high tech services at fractions of the prices of the competition because they're ripping small businesses off and I am attacking them directly.
I would be willing to bet my contributions to the world are more positive and far reaching than any cop anywhere in the world, no matter how great they are (and most are not), in fact. So I feel completely justified and within my rights to judge his behavior in the execution of his duties as a public servant.
I too work for charities, but that does not entitle me to look down on people who make less than I do (monetarily).
You of course have the right to judge behaviour as you see fit. But I also have that right and I exercise it by openly stating that I think your comment is demeaning.
It is important to remember, that is what Police's actual job is. Traffic stops are a revenue generator for local jurisdictions and represent the most reprehensible aspect of their daily jobs. Their real duty is to kill people for us so we don't have to, or when possible lock them up forever.
I'm not expressing approval of the system, I'm just making sure you understand exactly what it actually is.
So how does that apply to this story? Well the cop is exercising a whole lot of personal bias and judgement and discretionary decision making which _he is not authorized to exercise_. If cops were supposed to use those kinds of skills they'd earn a lot more than the tiny salaries they get, and they would be chosen from the best and brightest, but in fact police departments will refuse to hire you if you're too intelligent because they're afraid intelligence leads to corrupt cops. So you see, they don't get to be discretionary. They follow a script, they perform their duties in a way that shines like well polished boots, they collect their pensions and retire. Period. The behavior in the video is the behavior of a bad cop. It's a sociopath who knows how to push people's buttons while appearing to be controlled and calm. That's a bad cop, and it's important that we never let those people get away with their sociopathic behavior because it poisons our culture.
Giving a sociopath a gun and the authority and responsibility of killing people for you is a recipe for disaster.
Source: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2018/04/who_is_caren_turner...
A. No. While the video shows her haranguing police over the traffic stop, dropping the names of elected officials she knew, and her position as a Port Authority commissioner who oversees 4,000 police officers, the Tenafly police did not charge her with obstruction. But the chief of police made a call to the Port Authority's Inspector General, which led to an internal investigation and ultimately her resignation.
Q. Is the Port Authority taking any further action?
A. Apparently not. A spokesman said the Port Authority board was preparing to form a special committee to review the findings of the Inspector General investigation and take action at this week's board meeting, before Turner submitted her resignation to Gov. Phil Murphy. 'Commissioner Turner's resignation was appropriate given her outrageous conduct,' said the Port Authority spokesman. There has been no indication that anyone else might pursue misconduct charges against her for allegedly misusing her public office."
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2018/04/who_is_caren_turner...
Maybe we should think about appointing people to these types of low-profile positions, much like how we do Jury duty.