Yes. Telling myself it was not a big deal led me to crave the 3am wake-ups as an opportunity for writing some of my most fluid code. Now I know the door to productivity is clearing my sleep debt and developing the kind of surplus to where there is no such thing as early. Speaking of, it's past my bedtime...
If you wake up at night do not look at the time. It does not matter. It will only serve to hurt you. Just close your eyes and relax and never ever look at the time. The sky is dark and your alarm didn't go off and that's all you need to know.
Speaking personally as someone who usually gets enough sleep, I'd much rather wake up of my own accord than by alarm. If I wake up within an hour of my alarm, I just get up.
Try a sunrise simulator alarm. It will gradually turn on the light 20-40 minutes before the wakeup time, relying on your body to pick it up and wake up more naturally.
Personally solved this years ago - turn off Wi-Fi was data when I head to bed, that way only calls (usually urgent) wake me up, sms's aren't usually a bother. Only turn it on once I'm up in the morning.
a lot do as "do not disturb" but i've found them to be annoying in one way or another (e.g: blinking LED in a dark room, or applications not abiding or whatever)
so, I take the shotgun approach and kill all data.
Adjacent HN article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16954079 . `Health dangers of sleep deprivation:
"If you're not sleeping enough, "you will be both dead sooner, and the quality of your (now shorter) life will be significantly worse"`.
What I understood the authors point to be was not that missing sleep is no big deal, but that focussing on it being a big deal amplifies the insomnia itself, while being relaxed about the need for sleep allows you to sleep more easily.
This is exactly the Zen moment that fixed my lifelong insomnia: lying in bed relaxed with my eyes closed, even if I'm not asleep, leaves me feeling worlds better in the morning than fretting about not being able to sleep. It's something that happened when I forgot about it completely. Once I realized I could literally just lie in bed for 8 hours and be OK, I was able to let go.
It's like a trap that closes tighter about you the more you struggle, and releases if you allow yourself to relax
Once I really got that, sleep became regular and uninterrupted
> Lying in bed, relaxing and not focusing on not being able to sleep.
That sounds a lot like meditation! Let your thoughts flow, do not grasp onto them, simply lay there and breathe. It really does help. I have been doing this for the past two weeks and it has helped me realize that my "sleeping problems" are mostly self-created. I found my biggest problem during bedtime was always rooted in thinking. In hindsight, it makes total sense that training myself to let go of my thoughts was the solution. The short term gratification of interesting thought is outweighed by the long term benefits of healthy sleep.
I have started meditation with one of the aims being to improve my sleep. I still have problems sleeping, but it helps a lot when you are able to let thoughts go without ruminating on them.
I like to think of meditation as garbage collection for the brain. If you don't do it at a specific time to suit you, your brain will do it at the only time it's idle (when you're trying to fall asleep)
Yep. The book 'Quiet your mind and get to sleep' has this sort of advice.
For me something that helped was a cheap fitness watch for $29 that showed me how much sleep I was getting according to the watch.
This certainly isn't the case for everyone, but for people who have some trouble sleeping sometime, possibly exacerbated by disruptions to sleep due to small children or something it's very useful.
I can relate to this too - I also sometimes feel anxious when going to sleep, there's something strange about going away and coming back and continuity of self. I think the only reason people aren't afraid of it is that everyone is used to it.
One thing that helped was recognizing that I've never failed at eventually going to sleep - which then relaxes me and makes it easier to actually fall asleep.
I discovered this recently too. Even in the instances when I still don't get to sleep (eg my 1 year old coming into bed and wriggling in her sleep waking me) I've still felt more refreshed when I've relaxed rather than laid in bed wound up. I'm not into new age / whatever stuff but I like to think of it as night time meditation as while it's still not as good as sleep it's still a great deal better than full blown insomnia! And best of all, sometimes it clears your mind enough to actually sleep.
> It's like a trap that closes tighter about you the more you struggle, and releases if you allow yourself to relax
That is a beautiful analogy. Both in terms of accuracy and imagery.
What's with the snark? At worst, OP can reject the suggestion and choose for himself. At best, he sees a different perspective. I didn't get any negativity from the parent's comment, just a suggestion.
I think it is in pretty poor taste to start handing out free parenting advice without knowing anything about the situation.
If someone asks 'should I let my one year old daughter sleep in my bed' you could make that suggestion but when someone mentions this anecdotally then you have no business sticking your oar in in that way. And most comments that start out with 'respectfully' aren't, this one is no exception.
Scoot shared his recommendation to all readers and used laumars' situation description only as an example.
If you think that his recommendation is technically incorrect - please share why. But trying to suppress that discussion just because you think it is a private parenting issue -- is incorrect in a public forum.
I agree that "respectfully" was not an excuse. But excuse is not needed when commenter is sharing his suggestion.
"respectfully" wasn't meant as an excuse, but to mean just that - a suggestion offered with respect that the OP is free to do whatever they damn well please.
I completely accept that I could have worded it more softly / indirectly / anecdotally. Tone on the internet is hard!
No, he specifically addressed Laumars and gave him unsolicited advice. There are other variations of that comment possible that would have covered your response here but that wasn't the case.
Specifically: "I respectfully suggest you put a stop to that"
1) When I participate in public forum - I imply that I am looking for all unsolicited advices I can get.
Getting unsolicited advice is my main goal in discussion.
Receiving unsolicited advice is one of the best ways to learn about mistakes in my mental model of the world.
When you try to suppress such advice-giving culture on HN -- it reduces my chances of receiving my share of advices and reduces the quality of my communication on HN.
2) Even if advice is formally addressed to somebody else -- I frequently can learn from it anyway.
The author of the advice is well aware that his advice has multiple recipients -- even if the author formally addressed only a single story-teller [to make his advice easy to understand for all readers].
> It will take a few nights, but they'll soon realize bed-hopping is not accepted.
Honest question: why is this not accepted? Maybe it’s because I didn’t grow up in the West (I’m from Eastern Europe) where we didn’t have that much real estate space and as such us, kids, didn’t have “our own rooms” to sleep in, but I’ve turned out to be a quite a well functioning adult even though I shared my bed with both my parents and with my grand-parents (when my parents were “shipping” me in the winter to live with them). In fact, the very nickname which I’m using on this website reminds me of one winter when I was 7 or 8 and I was watching a Soviet TV show based on a Jules Verne book at my grandparents’ house in the Carpathians. I remember that it was aired each Tuesday night, I was watching it while I was in the same bed with my peasant grandpa’, my brother was in the other bed in the same room with my grandma’, there was nothing wrong with it, it didn’t even crossed anyone’s mind that would be something wrong with it, to this day those moments remain some of the most important in my life. I get that lots and lots of stuff gets sexualised in the States and in the West generally, I guess this is where this phobia against kids sharing beds with adult relatives comes from, but it wasn’t always like this, and saying that letting a kid sharing a bed with a adult parent or close relative is wrong goes against most of our history as a species.
Possibly a poor choice of words on my part. My comment had nothing to do with sexualisation (that didn't even cross my mind), but purely from the point of view of sleep hygiene for both parent and child.
Being able to go back to sleep by oneself is essential to good sleep, and something that people who didn't learn as a young child can struggle with into adulthood.
For the parent it can interrupt their sleep, as the GP mentioned. For someone who already has sleep difficulties, this isn't ideal.
Most practical reason: because as a parent who wants a good night's sleep, it's beneficial to train your kids to sleep well also. :). (And also because good sleep habits - by which I mean being able to fall asleep in your own bed without needing elaborate rituals or snuggling with a parent - are useful for life.)
Really, I think it's mostly about getting them used to the sleeping arrangements you want to have. If they're going to bed share until six, great, let them stay. But if you have them in their own room, teach them to sleep that way.
Note that doesn't mean no snuggling and reading. It just means that when it's time for sleep, learn to sleep in your target bed.
With infants, which doesn't apply to the GP, the current recommendation is to sleep in the same room but separate bed, to minimize the chance of getting squished or suffocated.
This isn't our first child and we do normally follow that advice. Unfortunately the 1 year old is teething again at the moment and not coping with it well at all. So bringing her into bed is sometimes the only way we can get her to settle (it's basically that or nobody in the house sleeping on a night due to her screaming. Plus I don't think it's really fair on the baby to put her through that stress when it's teething pain which is out of her control).
Our other kid is 4 years old now and sleeps really well on a night because we followed that advice but as I'm sure you'll know all to well yourself, sometimes as parents you have to break your own rules for your child's wellbeing.
I think as a parent you can generally tell between your childs "i want my own way" screams and their "i'm actually distressed for some reason" screams. Once her teething pains subside I assure you we'll go back to the "tough-love" approach.
> I'm not into new age / whatever stuff but I like to think of it as night time meditation as while it's still not as good as sleep it's still a great deal better than full blown insomnia!
There's a reason advanced mediators have vastly reduced sleep requirements (four hours a night or even less).
For me it was an unintended side effect from starting to meditate. It dawned on me one night that I could just quiet my mind long enough to fall asleep. I wish someone had told me that was a use for the skill, I would have learned it way sooner.
Years ago I noticed that when I used meditation techniques to quiet my mind, it made me sleepy. It's possible that it was just revealing a bit of underlying sleepiness that was usually masked by busy activity. So, I started using it when I was having trouble sleeping, and it worked like a charm. I've been doing it for years and taught my kids how to do it. My elementary school kid, who tended to be on the anxious side, really liked it.
Only problem is that now I get even sleepier when I try to meditate. ;-) Oh, well, I'd rather sleep well than meditate if I can't have both.
Yup. I did a Sleepio course that had a good trick for this: Remember that you've got through every single day after a bad night's sleep before just fine. Even if you don't sleep a single moment, you'll get through the day. You've done it loads of times before and you'll do it again.
For me a big source of panic was worrying about the impact on the next day a bad night's sleep would have.
I still have nights where I don't sleep from time to time, but I've stopped caring about it.
Man, generally I don't have sleep troubles[1], but I hate not getting sleep. It destroys my next day. Like, objectively. I don't operate well without sleep, so the thought of "you'll get through the day" doesn't ring nice for me. The same is true if I stab my foot with a knife, but it doesn't mean I won't dread experiencing the recovery from the knife wound lol.
[1]: I sleep well, I get plenty of it. The only downside I have is restless leg syndrome which, according to my wife, has me kicking and moving my legs a lot at night. I imagine that impacts my quality of sleep, so I try to get a bit more sleep due to that.
Agreed, but sleeping more still helps me. Maybe I could be happy with 7h/night without restless leg, but that doesn't change the fact that 8h for me is currently better than 7h. 7h just isn't enough. Which was my point - I get enough (more than average) to ensure I feel refreshed the next day.
It's definitely a problem though. I'm not a fan of medications, but I've not researched a natural remedy - perhaps I should.
Restless leg/limb has nothing to do with involuntary movements, so I don't think that's what you have here. RLS features a restless sensation, and sensations generally require consciousness.
No idea - when I'm awake it's definitely a restless sensation. Ultimately I'm the one that moves my leg, but it becomes nearly impossible to resist. It's a hard to describe feeling, a growing tension that almost buzzes electricity - not painful, but .. insanely insistent regardless.
I only found out that I kick in my sleep from my wife. She says it's worse on days when I actively, while awake, complain of restless legs.
Beyond that I've got no idea. It's not something that seemed to be dangerous nor bother me enough to see a doctor due to the infrequency that it bothers me while awake. If it occurred often while I was awake though, I'd have to see a doctor. No question.
Unsolicited advice: try taking 300mg of magnesium a few hours before bed. My RLS used to be rampant, and since I started supplementing Mg I haven’t had a single instance of it.
I use magnesium glycinate chelate because I’m a sucker for fancy vitamin sales pitches, but I’m sure other formulations work just as well.
> Remember that you've got through every single day after a bad night's sleep before just fine.
Not everyone has gotten through every day just fine, though. Drowsiness increases the chance of automobile accidents, decreases working memory, and, over time, contributes to stress-related diseases.
I'm always able to fall asleep pretty well in familiar environments but in new environments I can rarely sleep.
The whole "lay down with your eyes closed but not actually sleep" thing does work. I survived like this for 5 nights in a row with a maximum of 2 hours of REM sleep in the last few nights. I don't know how but I was quite functional during those days too.
You probably slept more than you think. I have the same issue and for a while after changing cities I was sleeping awfully. Yet I was still functional, my gym performance barely suffered, and the problem has almost entirely gone away now, mostly through telling myself "whatever, I'll be fine".
My wife meditates while sleeping (she figured it out because she only really takes the time when she's in bed and it always put her to sleep - so now if she wakes up in the middle of the night she just meditates and goes back to sleep).
> Once I realized I could literally just lie in bed for 8 hours and be OK, I was able to let go.
I think you still need REM cycles to be OK.
edit: Ok, I guess the purpose of this thread was to make everyone feel better, but technically I don't think it's possible to survive without REM sleep.
In the vain of feeling better: I find it easier to sleep once I realize I can just skip all obligations the next day and be fine if I don't get any sleep. Eventually I will sleep because it'll be impossible not to. That or I'll die, and I'm not particularly worried about sleep deprivation induced death.
Definitely agree that our way of thinking of sleep plays a critical role in how we sleep, i.e. "To fall asleep naturally, as opposed to just crashing into sleep when our wings melt, or knocking ourselves out with alcohol or drugs, we must be willing to do two things. We need to lose our mind – to surrender our waking sense of self. And we need to invoke sleep" from this article entitled "Falling for sleep:
When wakefulness is seen as the main event, no wonder so many have trouble sleeping. Can we rekindle the joy of slumber?" on Aeon (https://aeon.co/essays/the-cure-for-insomnia-is-to-fall-in-l...).
The article here is not about that less sleep is okay, but that worrying about it is counterproductive because it keeps you awake even longer.
I thought the headline alone already pretty much shows the core of the argument. It does not say "It's not a big deal", but "Tell yourself it’s not a big deal". It's about your mental state, not about the sleep duration.
Yeah, but that's an "in the long run" type of thing. You're not going to die early from a couple nights of bad sleep. Take it one day at a time and say "I'll be fine tomorrow if I don't sleep, I've been perfectly functional before on little to no sleep"
Work from home and get up whenever you want. Whenever I had an episode of wakefulness, usually between around 2 and 4 am, I would get up, watch a video, and get back to sleep, (perfect external aluminum) blinds fully closed, and sleep until 10 or 11 am. So I would always get a a full amount of sleep.
I recovered from (long-term very low-dose) chronic heavy metal poisoning (treated with chelators) for years, turned out that was the source of my occasional sleep issues. During the long excretion phase (years) the problems got pretty bad, so I got to test what the best methods are pretty thoroughly.
That means you have to find a way to have no time pressure before noon and be able to use that time for sleep. Then worrying stops. I found that interruptions, while inconvenient, don't matter, your brain gets used to it and adjusts. What matters is that you get the full amount of 7-8 hours. How do I know? The last hour of sleep is different - if you get that last hour or not makes a big difference. It was all a lot more intense for me for a few years so I could get a good look at sleep phases. The worst one is the initial 1-3 hours, and the worst time is ~3 am. When you have issues such as my heavy metal problem that's the nightmare "I have cancer I'm going to die" hour (anxiety/panic attack, no factual basis). Somebody else asked about just this here, I don't want to tell them I suspect they may have a problem similar to what I had... base on my experience that is a sign that something is not right, chemically, in the brain.
Its a big deal. Sleep deprived people make mistakes and cause more accidents than normal. There is a minimum need to sleep and the body will try to take a nap, microsleep or just give up(blackout)...and some people consider it okay.
The point is that those facts are irrelevant, in much the same way that it's irrelevant to bring up that tomatoes are botanically a fruit when discussing fruit salad.
Nowhere does the article say sleep deprivation isn't bad for you in myriad ways. Rather, it's making the point that, for people who are sleep deprived due to insomnia, stressing out about your lack of sleep compounds the problem, by making it even harder to fall asleep. So one way to solve insomnia-related sleep deprivation is precisely to not make a big deal of it, and remove the anxiety component.
``So one way to solve X is precisely to not make a big deal of it, and remove the anxiety component.``
Weight gain? Cancer? School shootings? Climate Change? Air Pollution?
Worrying all about that bad stuff is counter-productive and causes stress which makes it worse...
With this genius method they all can be solved by removing the 'anxiety component'(also known as reality), therefore making the problem go away..eventually, you just need to stop caring about the problem!
Anxiety is an actual mental health issue that heavily influences sleep patterns. It also influences eating habits (emotional eating is a well-understood maladaptive coping mechanism) so the same argument can actually (in some, but not all, cases) apply to weight gain, yes.
Climate change? Air pollution? If you don't see how these are completely different problems that are completely unrelated to your mental well-being, I don't know what to say...
Weigh gain? Worrying about Weigh gain creates stress
Climate change? Worrying about climate creates stress
Air pollution? Worrying about air pollution creates stress
Of course, worrying about _anything_ creates stress. But that's as far as it goes: Worrying about air pollution creates stress, but stress doesn't create more air pollution. Worrying about climate change doesn't make climate change worse.
The problem is closing the loop — worrying about sleeplessness produces stress, which then goes on to make the sleep disorder even worse. Same with weight loss and emotional eating.
Worrying about air pollution creates stress which combined with air pollution itself, reduces health more than air pollution alone.
How hard is it to understand?
The "anxiety removal" leads to not caring about the problem.
Its not closing the loop. Its allowing the existing problem to escalate.
>Worrying about climate change doesn't make climate change worse.
If your quality of life is affected by climate change, worrying about it will reduce it further.
Or you can just schedule time to worry about things and have other time where you don't worry about things... it takes a bit of discipline, but if you worry about everything 24/7 you're going to be very unhealthy.
I was always against the idea of memory foam pillows. I thought they'd be too hot, they would feel "odd", they'd swallow my face and suffocate me... To cut a long story short we stayed in an AirBnB a few months back that had them and they were an absolute revelation. My wife and I ordered some there and then and they were waiting for us when we got home.
You can pay a fortune for a name brand one but ours are just no-name pillows from Amazon. I think the pillows in the AirBnB were from IKEA, IIRC.
something that's always worked for me: slow your breathing and take medium-deep breaths while continually telling yourself nothing but "I am breathing deeply". I'm usually out in 5 minutes.
The book that helped with my insomnia (cured it, actually) more than anything else I tried (incl over the counter sleeping pills, CBT, etc) was "acceptance and commitment therapy."
2. Pick a scene from your life of some length that you remember with great detail and with some fondness. Start playing it back in you head, let you mind tell it as linearly or non linearly as it wants.
I have a poker hand where I made an apparently crazy call [Not really, there was massive pupil dilation by an amateur]. It's a good candidate because of length and some vivid moments in the hand with big characters involved.
3. got to 2. If you're conscious of repeating, appreciate your relaxed state.
No-one likes to hear this but it's true. Cut out caffeine in the afternoons (it has a ~6hr half-life in your system) and install F.lux or something to lower the colour temperature of your monitors.
(Anecdatum: When I want to stay up late, I turn off F.lux and it adds probably 2 hrs before I start feeling tired.)
Plenty of people know this, and do it, and still struggle. I limit myself to maximum of 2 coffees a day, no later than 3pm, and no phone/games after 10:00 and I still find myself lying in bed awake at 3am regularly
Because it's not enough to do one thing, you have to do all the things: exercise, go outdoors, socialize, live. It's like a chain: it only works when all the links are intact. A 99.99% chain is as good as a 1% chain.
Worth adding that there is great variability of the half-life of caffeine in different people, in part due to different phenotypes of the enzymes responsible for its metabolism (among other variables). For instance, I metabolize it slightly slower (if you can trust 23andMe SNP data enough for that kind of a prediction), so it could be even longer for me. iirc nicotine has also been shown to speed up caffeine's metabolism.
I've found that if I get up and write down my thoughts, afterwards I'll be able to sleep. I just write whatever I'm thinking at the moment. Sometimes I end up with some very interesting insights by doing this. After an hour or so, I feel a change in my mental state where I become more significantly more relaxed and less stressed. When I go back to bed I sleep like a baby.
I'd advise to always have a notebook next to your bed in any situation - for getting thoughts out of your head in a general sense like this, writing down work ideas [I always get sparks of inspiration just before falling asleep], writing down dreams if that sort of thing interests you.
I just had this insight yesterday! And now there is a thread on this.
I have been trying meditation/mindulness for a while. So, I have been trying to meditate before sleeping, relaxing my muscles. And sometimes it worked, sometimes it dint.
Yesterday I had an epiphany that I might be grasping for relaxation while trying to follow my mindful and muscle relaxation exercises. So, all I did was forget about muscle relaxation and just laid there, falling asleep in 5 minutes.
It talks exactly about what you are saying in your 2nd paragraph. Similarly, sometimes it works for me, sometimes I focus too much on checking if I'm relaxed and I cannot sleep..
"non-complaining poor sleepers" – who sleep badly but don’t define themselves as insomniacs –
don’t suffer the high blood pressure commonly associated with severe sleeplessness.
Meanwhile, “complaining good sleepers” – who get enough shut-eye, but are heavily invested in their alleged insomnia –
were essentially as tired, anxious and depressed as those who genuinely didn’t sleep.
Causation vs correlation? This could easily be the other way around, maybe it's because they don't feel good they complain about it...
The key is that the non-complaining people also "sleep badly" (and fewer hours).
So whether they complaining insomniacs don't feel good and thus complain, or complain and thus don't feel good, we at least know that it's not the sleeplessness (as it is common to both groups).
From everything I've read (at the medical documents/research, not the lifehack level) it doesn't vary much. It varies only a little with age and the presence (or not) of a gene, but it's the same across such groups (e.g. not some individual organism preference).
Those that sleep less simply damage their body, and will pay for it later and with reduced functioning (compared to enough sleep) -- it's not that they actually "need less". Same for those that sleep more.
Most researchers now believe that the relationship between sleep duration and mortality (link is external) is best described as a U-shaped curve with the right side of the “U” considerably higher. That is, less than 5 1/2 hours of sleep is associated with some degree of increased mortality. However, sleeping beyond 9 or 10 hours per night, is associated with a markedly increased mortality
Isn’t that assuming that lack of sleep affects everyone in the same way? Different people need different amounts of sleep.
I am a night owl and so find a shitty nights sleep will result in a shitty morning; but I’ll feel much better by the end of the day. Whereas a morning person might wake up without issues and only pay the price later on (and counter with an early night).
This is probably good advice for people who have occasional insomnia.
But if you have insomnia more regularly, especially for days at a time, or you consistently don't feel rested despite believing that you've slept, you really should try to talk to a doctor - not to ask for sleeping pills (although that may be a result), but to start the process of finding out if there's a larger problem that can be treated.
I deal with delayed sleep onset, which is livable - it just means that it takes me longer to fall asleep, and occasional insomnia on top of it wouldn't be a big deal.
But I also suffer from a REM-related parasomnia which apparently has never been officially described or named, so instead gets stuck in the "Other parasomnias - unspecified" bucket. Basically once I fall asleep, the NREM phases look perfectly normal, but once I enter REM, I suffer multiple arousals (basically I wake up, but for too short a period to be aware that I'm awake). So rather than going through REM phases, I spend that time waking up multiple times per minute.
Unfortunately so far nobody has been able to suggest a treatment. Gabapentin helps a little, but it's far from a solution.
I had been recommended agomelatine (in the form of Valdoxan) for my anxiety, but it's primarily a sleep regulator. I'm not a doctor, don't know much about medicine, but maybe it's relevant, dunno.
Agomelatine is being studied as a sleep regulator since it acts on melatonin receptors, but it's primarily used as an antidepressant. Interestingly, I see that there's no tapering needed when discontinuing this, so it may not hurt to ask my doctor if it's worth trying.
Amitriptyline is primarily an antidepressant, and it's very common for them to cause drowsiness, but there doesn't seem to be many studies as to how well they help maintain sleep, which would probably be key to my issue.
It's good that Amitriptyline is able to help you with spasms, though!
It's quite commonly used off-label for sleep at doses below it's antidepressant dose.
Yeah the medication has been incredible at managing my issues, I only take the full dose at of gabapentin at night though as I find it makes me 'wooly' headed if I take it during the day.
That's certainly one of the first things they checked for, which is understandable.
They started with a home sleep study (you pick up the equipment and are shown how to put it on before bed), but it showed that my breathing was fine, blood oxygen levels were normal, and I snore less than the average person.
So that's when they had me do the full study where you sleep in a lab hooked up to monitors to track breathing, brainwaves, muscle movements, etc.
When my father did his sleep study, they found that for every hour he slept, he only got 15 minutes or less of restful sleep. Sleep apnea is crazy.
My own sleep study, done at age 24, showed that I had (have?) mild to moderate sleep apnea. They recommended I don't drink, lose ten pounds and exercise regularly. No CPAP until it's worse. I chose to suffer poor sleep instead.
It's 3am in the states, and I'm at the computer. I slept for five hours, from 9 until 2. I was woken up by timer that was accidentally set to turn a TV on.
After lying in bed relaxing for an hour or so, I got up. Started working.
This happens quite a bit, and it used to bug me a lot. I finally made my peace with it, not because of any Zen moment (Sorry DrPhish), but because there was nothing else to do. It is what it is.
So I stopped complaining, I stopped worrying about it, I stopped trying to figure out if I was getting the right sleep or not. Instead I sleep when I'm tired. If I wake up and can't go back to sleep? I work. Eventually my body will catch up with whatever it wants to do. I work for myself. If I want to sleep, I sleep. This is one of the benefits of being self-employed.
On the plus side, you can get a lot of stuff done in the middle of the night. I do my best creative work when I'm up in these dark-of-the-night hours. It's quiet, it's peaceful, and I have time to think about and consider things instead of feeling like I'm on a treadmill.
I really enjoyed this article. It's interesting that I arrived at the same place without realizing what I was doing. I'm going to save it to share with my friends next time I hear them complaining. :)
"He knew this, even in the horror with which he started from his first sleep, and threw up the window to dispel it by the presence of some object, beyond the room, which had not been, as it were, the witness of his dream." Charles Dickens, Barnaby Rudge (1840)
"Don Quixote followed nature, and being satisfied with his first sleep, did not solicit more. As for Sancho, he never wanted a second, for the first lasted him from night to morning." Miguel Cervantes, Don Quixote (1615)
"And at the wakening of your first sleepe You shall have a hott drinke made, And at the wakening of your next sleepe Your sorrowes will have a slake." Early English ballad, Old Robin of Portingale
The Tiv tribe in Nigeria employ the terms "first sleep" and "second sleep" to refer to specific periods of the night
> I work. Eventually my body will catch up with whatever it wants to do. I work for myself. If I want to sleep, I sleep. This is one of the benefits of being self-employed.
Yea, this is huge. I have in office days and in home days. I dread getting bad sleep before an in office day. Not because it's terrible, but because I don't have the reserve to last a 9.5h day in a boxed in stuffy environment. At least my home doesn't feel as draining as in the office, and I can do 4 hours of work at home and take a nap if I had bad sleep before.
The sad thing is, because our work culture focuses on hours over work, if I have bad sleep before an in office day I'm vastly less productive, because 3-5 hours into the day, I lose steam. Yet, I don't do anything to fix it. I just sit there, being unproductive, with drifty tired thoughts.
I believe that the article is right about how the labels we create for ourselves start to define us, to many of us the real question is how to stop caring, or being afraid, or being anxious though.
You can tell someone to stop fretting about something - but probably a good psychologist is a better way to hear these pieces of advice, not to mention how we are bombarded by advertisments and beliefs in our everyday life that go against the message of "don't fret".
After two burnouts nowadays if insomnia sets in I just turn the alarm off, accept that it is one of those nights and relax. If that won't work due to racy thoughts I just get up and do something. The next day is immediately cleared from appointments, duties, plans and exercise. Good sleep is priority 1 over work, exercise and even food. I'd rather be unemployed than being a walking zombie ever again.
I hear from many people that they have problems sleeping, I have never ever had that problem. Imho the big difference was almost always them telling me: they fret about not being able to sleep vs. me telling them: I can truly enjoy just getting into bed and I sometimes wrestle to not fall asleep because that feeling of being tired and hitting the bed is just so nice I want to extend the time I experience it... The wrestle is always useless because sleep comes very fast.
Even when I don't fall asleep immediately I can enjoy taking the time to think about work or plan the next day or think about future vacations or what I'm going to do to my home server when 18.04 comes out or the latest episode of Isaac Arthur [0], there are many nice things to think about with little else on the mind. It's almost a shame sleep disrupts my train of thought sometimes :)
I'm a bit of a fretter myself but never about sleep.
181 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 223 ms ] threadIf my phone is even on silence mode but on the night stand, I wake up and want to check on it immediately.
so, I take the shotgun approach and kill all data.
Adjacent HN article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16954079 . `Health dangers of sleep deprivation: "If you're not sleeping enough, "you will be both dead sooner, and the quality of your (now shorter) life will be significantly worse"`.
(And: My thoughts were more like, if you don't read HN, then that's whole lot easier.)
It's like a trap that closes tighter about you the more you struggle, and releases if you allow yourself to relax
Once I really got that, sleep became regular and uninterrupted
Simply lying/relaxing in bed for an hour or two can leave you feeling surprisingly refreshed.
That sounds a lot like meditation! Let your thoughts flow, do not grasp onto them, simply lay there and breathe. It really does help. I have been doing this for the past two weeks and it has helped me realize that my "sleeping problems" are mostly self-created. I found my biggest problem during bedtime was always rooted in thinking. In hindsight, it makes total sense that training myself to let go of my thoughts was the solution. The short term gratification of interesting thought is outweighed by the long term benefits of healthy sleep.
For me something that helped was a cheap fitness watch for $29 that showed me how much sleep I was getting according to the watch.
This certainly isn't the case for everyone, but for people who have some trouble sleeping sometime, possibly exacerbated by disruptions to sleep due to small children or something it's very useful.
One thing that helped was recognizing that I've never failed at eventually going to sleep - which then relaxes me and makes it easier to actually fall asleep.
> It's like a trap that closes tighter about you the more you struggle, and releases if you allow yourself to relax
That is a beautiful analogy. Both in terms of accuracy and imagery.
I respectfully suggest you put a stop to that before it becomes a habit, as your child needs to learn to go back to sleep in their own bed.
Quietly & calmly return them to bed, tell them to go back to sleep, wait outside a few moments, then go back to bed. Repeat as necessary.
It will take a few nights, but they'll soon realize bed-hopping is not accepted.
(Not to mention, 1 sounds pretty young to have moved from a cot to a bed.)
If someone asks 'should I let my one year old daughter sleep in my bed' you could make that suggestion but when someone mentions this anecdotally then you have no business sticking your oar in in that way. And most comments that start out with 'respectfully' aren't, this one is no exception.
If you think that his recommendation is technically incorrect - please share why. But trying to suppress that discussion just because you think it is a private parenting issue -- is incorrect in a public forum.
I agree that "respectfully" was not an excuse. But excuse is not needed when commenter is sharing his suggestion.
I completely accept that I could have worded it more softly / indirectly / anecdotally. Tone on the internet is hard!
Specifically: "I respectfully suggest you put a stop to that"
That 'you' was clearly intended to be Laumars.
Getting unsolicited advice is my main goal in discussion.
Receiving unsolicited advice is one of the best ways to learn about mistakes in my mental model of the world.
When you try to suppress such advice-giving culture on HN -- it reduces my chances of receiving my share of advices and reduces the quality of my communication on HN.
2) Even if advice is formally addressed to somebody else -- I frequently can learn from it anyway.
The author of the advice is well aware that his advice has multiple recipients -- even if the author formally addressed only a single story-teller [to make his advice easy to understand for all readers].
Honest question: why is this not accepted? Maybe it’s because I didn’t grow up in the West (I’m from Eastern Europe) where we didn’t have that much real estate space and as such us, kids, didn’t have “our own rooms” to sleep in, but I’ve turned out to be a quite a well functioning adult even though I shared my bed with both my parents and with my grand-parents (when my parents were “shipping” me in the winter to live with them). In fact, the very nickname which I’m using on this website reminds me of one winter when I was 7 or 8 and I was watching a Soviet TV show based on a Jules Verne book at my grandparents’ house in the Carpathians. I remember that it was aired each Tuesday night, I was watching it while I was in the same bed with my peasant grandpa’, my brother was in the other bed in the same room with my grandma’, there was nothing wrong with it, it didn’t even crossed anyone’s mind that would be something wrong with it, to this day those moments remain some of the most important in my life. I get that lots and lots of stuff gets sexualised in the States and in the West generally, I guess this is where this phobia against kids sharing beds with adult relatives comes from, but it wasn’t always like this, and saying that letting a kid sharing a bed with a adult parent or close relative is wrong goes against most of our history as a species.
Later it's more of a practical thing -- the bed's small enough already without a wriggling 4 year old!
Possibly a poor choice of words on my part. My comment had nothing to do with sexualisation (that didn't even cross my mind), but purely from the point of view of sleep hygiene for both parent and child.
Being able to go back to sleep by oneself is essential to good sleep, and something that people who didn't learn as a young child can struggle with into adulthood.
For the parent it can interrupt their sleep, as the GP mentioned. For someone who already has sleep difficulties, this isn't ideal.
Really, I think it's mostly about getting them used to the sleeping arrangements you want to have. If they're going to bed share until six, great, let them stay. But if you have them in their own room, teach them to sleep that way.
Note that doesn't mean no snuggling and reading. It just means that when it's time for sleep, learn to sleep in your target bed.
With infants, which doesn't apply to the GP, the current recommendation is to sleep in the same room but separate bed, to minimize the chance of getting squished or suffocated.
I think it would be good to get some evidence here that describes that sleep is most beneficial in the circumstances you are describing.
Children aren't NPCs in a video game, tho.
Edit: Apparently they are. My mistake.
YMMW but I was starting to get ill after not sleeping a full night for months.
Emphasis on taught because while we knew we had to teach or kids to eat and walk it never occured to me I had to teach them to sleep.
Our other kid is 4 years old now and sleeps really well on a night because we followed that advice but as I'm sure you'll know all to well yourself, sometimes as parents you have to break your own rules for your child's wellbeing.
I think as a parent you can generally tell between your childs "i want my own way" screams and their "i'm actually distressed for some reason" screams. Once her teething pains subside I assure you we'll go back to the "tough-love" approach.
There's a reason advanced mediators have vastly reduced sleep requirements (four hours a night or even less).
Only problem is that now I get even sleepier when I try to meditate. ;-) Oh, well, I'd rather sleep well than meditate if I can't have both.
For me a big source of panic was worrying about the impact on the next day a bad night's sleep would have.
I still have nights where I don't sleep from time to time, but I've stopped caring about it.
"Do the thing you fear and the death of fear is certain" - Ralph Waldo Emerson
[1]: I sleep well, I get plenty of it. The only downside I have is restless leg syndrome which, according to my wife, has me kicking and moving my legs a lot at night. I imagine that impacts my quality of sleep, so I try to get a bit more sleep due to that.
If you have restless leg syndrome, you don't sleep well.
It's definitely a problem though. I'm not a fan of medications, but I've not researched a natural remedy - perhaps I should.
I only found out that I kick in my sleep from my wife. She says it's worse on days when I actively, while awake, complain of restless legs.
Beyond that I've got no idea. It's not something that seemed to be dangerous nor bother me enough to see a doctor due to the infrequency that it bothers me while awake. If it occurred often while I was awake though, I'd have to see a doctor. No question.
I use magnesium glycinate chelate because I’m a sucker for fancy vitamin sales pitches, but I’m sure other formulations work just as well.
Not everyone has gotten through every day just fine, though. Drowsiness increases the chance of automobile accidents, decreases working memory, and, over time, contributes to stress-related diseases.
So it's saidar, not saidin :)
The whole "lay down with your eyes closed but not actually sleep" thing does work. I survived like this for 5 nights in a row with a maximum of 2 hours of REM sleep in the last few nights. I don't know how but I was quite functional during those days too.
My wife meditates while sleeping (she figured it out because she only really takes the time when she's in bed and it always put her to sleep - so now if she wakes up in the middle of the night she just meditates and goes back to sleep).
I think you still need REM cycles to be OK.
edit: Ok, I guess the purpose of this thread was to make everyone feel better, but technically I don't think it's possible to survive without REM sleep.
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-in-anyway-possible-to-survive-wi...
In the vain of feeling better: I find it easier to sleep once I realize I can just skip all obligations the next day and be fine if I don't get any sleep. Eventually I will sleep because it'll be impossible not to. That or I'll die, and I'm not particularly worried about sleep deprivation induced death.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16954079
though maybe don't read it if you want to try this one.
I thought the headline alone already pretty much shows the core of the argument. It does not say "It's not a big deal", but "Tell yourself it’s not a big deal". It's about your mental state, not about the sleep duration.
Work from home and get up whenever you want. Whenever I had an episode of wakefulness, usually between around 2 and 4 am, I would get up, watch a video, and get back to sleep, (perfect external aluminum) blinds fully closed, and sleep until 10 or 11 am. So I would always get a a full amount of sleep.
I recovered from (long-term very low-dose) chronic heavy metal poisoning (treated with chelators) for years, turned out that was the source of my occasional sleep issues. During the long excretion phase (years) the problems got pretty bad, so I got to test what the best methods are pretty thoroughly.
That means you have to find a way to have no time pressure before noon and be able to use that time for sleep. Then worrying stops. I found that interruptions, while inconvenient, don't matter, your brain gets used to it and adjusts. What matters is that you get the full amount of 7-8 hours. How do I know? The last hour of sleep is different - if you get that last hour or not makes a big difference. It was all a lot more intense for me for a few years so I could get a good look at sleep phases. The worst one is the initial 1-3 hours, and the worst time is ~3 am. When you have issues such as my heavy metal problem that's the nightmare "I have cancer I'm going to die" hour (anxiety/panic attack, no factual basis). Somebody else asked about just this here, I don't want to tell them I suspect they may have a problem similar to what I had... base on my experience that is a sign that something is not right, chemically, in the brain.
The point is that those facts are irrelevant, in much the same way that it's irrelevant to bring up that tomatoes are botanically a fruit when discussing fruit salad.
Nowhere does the article say sleep deprivation isn't bad for you in myriad ways. Rather, it's making the point that, for people who are sleep deprived due to insomnia, stressing out about your lack of sleep compounds the problem, by making it even harder to fall asleep. So one way to solve insomnia-related sleep deprivation is precisely to not make a big deal of it, and remove the anxiety component.
Climate change? Air pollution? If you don't see how these are completely different problems that are completely unrelated to your mental well-being, I don't know what to say...
Of course, worrying about _anything_ creates stress. But that's as far as it goes: Worrying about air pollution creates stress, but stress doesn't create more air pollution. Worrying about climate change doesn't make climate change worse.
The problem is closing the loop — worrying about sleeplessness produces stress, which then goes on to make the sleep disorder even worse. Same with weight loss and emotional eating.
I went years without before housesitting for a friend and realizing how much better I slept.
You can pay a fortune for a name brand one but ours are just no-name pillows from Amazon. I think the pillows in the AirBnB were from IKEA, IIRC.
The book that helped with my insomnia (cured it, actually) more than anything else I tried (incl over the counter sleeping pills, CBT, etc) was "acceptance and commitment therapy."
Specifically the book "The Sleep Book."
1. Make a list of the 3 things to do tomorrow.
2. Pick a scene from your life of some length that you remember with great detail and with some fondness. Start playing it back in you head, let you mind tell it as linearly or non linearly as it wants.
I have a poker hand where I made an apparently crazy call [Not really, there was massive pupil dilation by an amateur]. It's a good candidate because of length and some vivid moments in the hand with big characters involved.
3. got to 2. If you're conscious of repeating, appreciate your relaxed state.
(Anecdatum: When I want to stay up late, I turn off F.lux and it adds probably 2 hrs before I start feeling tired.)
Imagine what telling someone who suffers from anxiety that they suffer from anxienty does!
I have been trying meditation/mindulness for a while. So, I have been trying to meditate before sleeping, relaxing my muscles. And sometimes it worked, sometimes it dint.
Yesterday I had an epiphany that I might be grasping for relaxation while trying to follow my mindful and muscle relaxation exercises. So, all I did was forget about muscle relaxation and just laid there, falling asleep in 5 minutes.
It talks exactly about what you are saying in your 2nd paragraph. Similarly, sometimes it works for me, sometimes I focus too much on checking if I'm relaxed and I cannot sleep..
Causation vs correlation? This could easily be the other way around, maybe it's because they don't feel good they complain about it...
So whether they complaining insomniacs don't feel good and thus complain, or complain and thus don't feel good, we at least know that it's not the sleeplessness (as it is common to both groups).
From everything I've read (at the medical documents/research, not the lifehack level) it doesn't vary much. It varies only a little with age and the presence (or not) of a gene, but it's the same across such groups (e.g. not some individual organism preference).
Those that sleep less simply damage their body, and will pay for it later and with reduced functioning (compared to enough sleep) -- it's not that they actually "need less". Same for those that sleep more.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12683469
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12603781
Most researchers now believe that the relationship between sleep duration and mortality (link is external) is best described as a U-shaped curve with the right side of the “U” considerably higher. That is, less than 5 1/2 hours of sleep is associated with some degree of increased mortality. However, sleeping beyond 9 or 10 hours per night, is associated with a markedly increased mortality
I am a night owl and so find a shitty nights sleep will result in a shitty morning; but I’ll feel much better by the end of the day. Whereas a morning person might wake up without issues and only pay the price later on (and counter with an early night).
Not according to all medical advise I've read (no lifestyle advice / lifehacks).
The body really needs its sleep, and the amount is more or less fixed to 7-8 hours.
There's only a small (1-2 hours variation with age, not with individual people).
781 points by rhapsodic 35 days ago | 190 comments
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16671944
But if you have insomnia more regularly, especially for days at a time, or you consistently don't feel rested despite believing that you've slept, you really should try to talk to a doctor - not to ask for sleeping pills (although that may be a result), but to start the process of finding out if there's a larger problem that can be treated.
I deal with delayed sleep onset, which is livable - it just means that it takes me longer to fall asleep, and occasional insomnia on top of it wouldn't be a big deal.
But I also suffer from a REM-related parasomnia which apparently has never been officially described or named, so instead gets stuck in the "Other parasomnias - unspecified" bucket. Basically once I fall asleep, the NREM phases look perfectly normal, but once I enter REM, I suffer multiple arousals (basically I wake up, but for too short a period to be aware that I'm awake). So rather than going through REM phases, I spend that time waking up multiple times per minute.
Unfortunately so far nobody has been able to suggest a treatment. Gabapentin helps a little, but it's far from a solution.
I've slept better since I've been taking the amytrypline though it wasn't taken for insomnia (which I've had since I was 17).
It's good that Amitriptyline is able to help you with spasms, though!
Yeah the medication has been incredible at managing my issues, I only take the full dose at of gabapentin at night though as I find it makes me 'wooly' headed if I take it during the day.
They started with a home sleep study (you pick up the equipment and are shown how to put it on before bed), but it showed that my breathing was fine, blood oxygen levels were normal, and I snore less than the average person.
So that's when they had me do the full study where you sleep in a lab hooked up to monitors to track breathing, brainwaves, muscle movements, etc.
My own sleep study, done at age 24, showed that I had (have?) mild to moderate sleep apnea. They recommended I don't drink, lose ten pounds and exercise regularly. No CPAP until it's worse. I chose to suffer poor sleep instead.
After lying in bed relaxing for an hour or so, I got up. Started working.
This happens quite a bit, and it used to bug me a lot. I finally made my peace with it, not because of any Zen moment (Sorry DrPhish), but because there was nothing else to do. It is what it is.
So I stopped complaining, I stopped worrying about it, I stopped trying to figure out if I was getting the right sleep or not. Instead I sleep when I'm tired. If I wake up and can't go back to sleep? I work. Eventually my body will catch up with whatever it wants to do. I work for myself. If I want to sleep, I sleep. This is one of the benefits of being self-employed.
On the plus side, you can get a lot of stuff done in the middle of the night. I do my best creative work when I'm up in these dark-of-the-night hours. It's quiet, it's peaceful, and I have time to think about and consider things instead of feeling like I'm on a treadmill.
I really enjoyed this article. It's interesting that I arrived at the same place without realizing what I was doing. I'm going to save it to share with my friends next time I hear them complaining. :)
Sounds pretty Zen to me. :)
"Don Quixote followed nature, and being satisfied with his first sleep, did not solicit more. As for Sancho, he never wanted a second, for the first lasted him from night to morning." Miguel Cervantes, Don Quixote (1615)
"And at the wakening of your first sleepe You shall have a hott drinke made, And at the wakening of your next sleepe Your sorrowes will have a slake." Early English ballad, Old Robin of Portingale
The Tiv tribe in Nigeria employ the terms "first sleep" and "second sleep" to refer to specific periods of the night
Taken from (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16964783). The article references "At Day's Close", sure, but it also references many other sources.
Yea, this is huge. I have in office days and in home days. I dread getting bad sleep before an in office day. Not because it's terrible, but because I don't have the reserve to last a 9.5h day in a boxed in stuffy environment. At least my home doesn't feel as draining as in the office, and I can do 4 hours of work at home and take a nap if I had bad sleep before.
The sad thing is, because our work culture focuses on hours over work, if I have bad sleep before an in office day I'm vastly less productive, because 3-5 hours into the day, I lose steam. Yet, I don't do anything to fix it. I just sit there, being unproductive, with drifty tired thoughts.
You can tell someone to stop fretting about something - but probably a good psychologist is a better way to hear these pieces of advice, not to mention how we are bombarded by advertisments and beliefs in our everyday life that go against the message of "don't fret".
Even when I don't fall asleep immediately I can enjoy taking the time to think about work or plan the next day or think about future vacations or what I'm going to do to my home server when 18.04 comes out or the latest episode of Isaac Arthur [0], there are many nice things to think about with little else on the mind. It's almost a shame sleep disrupts my train of thought sometimes :)
I'm a bit of a fretter myself but never about sleep.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZFipeZtQM5CKUjx6grh54g