A lot of annoyances, needless complicated door handles, buggy software. But this made me smile and the car enthusiast inside me is ecstatic.
> "This car is a joy to drive on Angeles Crest Highway, and I don't say that lightly. Angeles Crest is a famously demanding road that winds up into the San Gabriel Mountains north of Los Angeles. You need brakes, power and a taut, balanced chassis to do it right. The Model 3 has it all. Body roll is minimal, the brakes don't complain, the steering is gratifyingly precise, and there are gobs of instant torque on tap. Plus, the regenerative braking function means you use the actual brake pedal less often.
> "It's a new kind of fun to lift off the throttle ahead of a corner and realize you've already scrubbed enough speed without even touching the pedal. After my drive, a friend of mine asked me how the Model 3 compares to the current BMW 3 Series, and I told him I'd rather have the Tesla. He laughed. I wasn't kidding."
That was one vehicle. The first test was fine. Subsequent tests were not. It's pretty clearly a flaw in the brakes of that particular vehicle. If CR wants to generalize from that fine, but it's not doing a service to its readers.
I will disagree, I think they are making people aware of a potential problem, if indeed this is only with some cars, as most people won't know just by driving if their car's breaking is per the specs.
Because we saw some inconsistency in the braking performance, we got a second Model 3 (a privately owned vehicle that was loaned to CR) to verify our results. CR has tested second samples in previous situations to double-check our findings.
...
CR’s experience with the Model 3’s braking is not unique. Car and Driver, in its published test of a Model 3, said it noticed “a bizarre amount of variation” in its test, including one stop from 70 mph that took “an interminable 196 feet.”
“I’ve been testing cars for 11 years,” Car and Driver Testing Director K.C. Colwell said in an interview with CR, “and in 11 years, no car has stood out with inconsistent braking like this. Some trucks have. . . . It was just weird.”
Well it looks like brake issue can be solved with a software update [1] in a few days. Which is not too surprising since brakes are a known technology.
It's because they're a "known technology" that it's rather surprising that Tesla managed to screw up their ABS system in such a dangerous way. If there has been an analogous failure with either traditional Bosch ABS systems or the Toyota systems that integrate with hybrid and electric powertrains - both systems have been around for decades - I'm not aware of it.
Not that Toyota hasn't had other sorts of firmware problems...
True, it is surprising that Tesla seems to have a bug in such a known technology. But also because it is such a known technology it would be equally surprising if there wasn't an easy fix for the problem and it turns out there is. A tempest in a tea pot.
Well, that's what people tell me, and a quick google shows that the Internets have a huge debate over the issue. So I'll just say that I'm not an expert, but I still love one-pedal driving.
Edit: from the huge number of downvotes my previous comment is getting, apparently many HN users think they know the answer!
The huge number of downvotes should probably indicate to you that what you stated as a matter of fact is incorrect[1].
It's not necessarily that HNers think they know, even though I'm sure we do! :), it's that it's pretty clear that you didn't know but made a statement as if you did know, with no substantiation. Sadly, as it turns out here, it was based on "some guy somewhere said", which is a much-maligned standard of knowledge on HN.
BTW, I suspect the downvotes for this comment are for the combination of basically admitting that you're relying on hearsay and that, attempting to research the matter further, you were shocked (shocked!) that there were people arguing on the Internet and that was the end of the matter for you.
[1] or a matter of opinion, but this is an engineering topic, which, on HN, is generally pretty comfortably treated as fact.
It won't. Unless the clutch is damaged and slipping, or slipping because your foot is resting on the pedal, it's all locked together and it's not going to wear. You will always cause a bit of wear to the clutch while shifting, but that's a different conversation. (with all the rev matching that the newest manual transmissions will do for you, I wonder if replacing clutches during the normal lifetime of a passenger car will become a thing of the past, but it's too soon to say for sure)
That was, essentially, my point. (Foot resting on the pedal heavily enough that it slips doesn't count as fully engaged, of course).
> I wonder if replacing clutches during the normal lifetime of a passenger car will become a thing of the past
My gut says that clutches wear far more from starting at a dead stop than from any gear changes in motion, so taking rev-matching out of the hands (foot) of the human won't make enough of a difference.
That's an interesting question. There's a lot more time spent slipping the clutch getting the car started, but there are higher RPMs and more power being transmitted through the partially-engaged flywheel and clutch during some of the other shifts. But yes, intuitively, it definitely feels like starting the car is when most of that wear happens, and if I had to bet I would bet that's right, at least during everyday driving.
> there are higher RPMs and more power being transmitted through the partially-engaged flywheel and clutch during some of the other shifts.
I'd argue that, if that's the case, one isn't doing it right. Ideally, there is zero RPMs difference during disengagement and engagement during routine gear shifting.
One doesn't even need the clutch, if one is good enough at rev-matching. I expect the risk of damaging a gear or synchro makes this a bad idea in general practice, but it can help get a clutch that no longer fully disengages to a mechanic without a tow-truck, something important in my younger/poorer days.
I play the same “game” (not using brakes). The extra clutch wear happens because you down shift to increase engine braking. You rev match (blip the throttle) so the car doesn’t jerk when you do this.
I’ve got 212K miles on my original clutch (a 2007 BMW 3 series) so the wear isn’t too bad.
I'm not sure I understand how having a flat body roll is worse than normal, in terms of passenger tiltiness.
Ideally, the car would bank, rolling opposite. Then the force of the turn would push you into your seat, rather than out of it. But I'm probably misunderstanding something.
> More importantly is when lateral grip finally breaks there is no warning to the driver with a cocked wheel and gentle progression: it just lets go.
This honestly depends on the tires. A lot of performance tires lose grip very gradually. Don't know what tires the Model 3 comes with, but with a good set it shouldn't be an issue.
> As a counter-example Mazda have always engineered some body-roll into the Miata / MX-5 so that it's fun and communicative in corners.
I daily drive an MX-5 and the body roll drives me nuts. If you ever drive a modded Miata or an S2000/BRZ or a Porsche Cayman it'll be very apparent how their lack of body roll gives superior driving dynamics while still being very compliant. Not saying Miata is a boat, but it's overly wallow-y for a car of that size.
> One is that its uncomfortable for people in the car, particularly passenger, who are pushed sideways into the seat-bolsters and side panels.
Body roll is going the wrong way to make it more comfortable. The roll is in the same direction that the passengers are being pulled, which makes the passenger impact worse as gravity adds to the pull as the car tilts. Contrast with a banked curve, which is essentially reverse roll, and is more comfortable because much of the force is directed "downward" into the seat.
The Model 3 seems more like an alpha/prototype than a real car for consumers. As soon as I saw the interior I knew it wasn’t going to go well, seems it’s worse than I thought. Add in the software issues and other bugs they seem to be in countering in this is a pathetic experience for a $60,000 car + years of waiting.
I had to look that price up, because I could have sworn the big talking points was the $35k price tag. And sure enough, average purchase estimates are swelling past $50k average and some paying closer to $60k.
Your sarcasm doesn't add much to the conversation.
Here's my actual criticism: Is there actually a $35k "option" (base model) yet? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no".
I'm not going so far as a condemnation, but I'd like to see reviews of that model before passing judgment.
Also, is it common for "every other carmaker" to have that huge a difference in price within the same model, barring actual structural differences (coupe/sedan/wagon)? $56k is 160% of the $35k price.
The $35k Model 3 will be released when they need to ship them -- until then, they're going to ship higher-priced higher-margin cars. (Even higher-priced dual motor and performance models just got released because production has finally gotten to a reasonable level and they're willing to introduce kinks in the production line.)
The same thing was done with Model S and Model X. I have air suspension because elsewise I would have had to wait longer than the 9 months I'd already waited in 2012-2013.
The only difference between the current cheapest 3 and the $35k model is battery size, which affects weight and the max performance.
Does this jibe with your "all other carmakers" comparison? I do know that different models routinely get released at different times (separated by months), but different option packages?
> The only difference between the current cheapest 3 and the $35k model is battery size, which affects weight and the max performance.
I gave you enough clues to guess how it drives, but if you don't want to guess, then I guess you'll have to wait. "Late 2018" is what the configurator tells me.
One nit, in addition to the +$9k long range 'option' the cheapest current 3 also requires the +$5k Premium Upgrade Package. So the cheapest current Model 3 is $49k (+ the 1k Destination + Doc Fee).
I'm curious how many of those have been sold since that does not include the autopilot package, meaning it doesn't even have traffic aware cruise control. It seems likely that people preferring Teslas would also have a strong preference for the autopilot.
It's entirely common in that segment. The BMW 3 series, against which the Model 3 is precisely positioned, starts at $34,900, has a non-optioned model with a larger engine and all-wheel drive starting at $50,950, and can get optioned to $66,000. And that's not even getting into the M3 performance version, which starts at $66,500 and can get optioned up to $88,000.
Granted, it's not your own comment you're defending, but that's a single carmaker, a far cry from the "all" that was claimed.
Also, now I'm curious, other than sharing the numeral 3, is there evidence for the model 3 being "precisely positioned" against the BMW's 3 series? I haven't been following any of this that closely, so I only recall it being hyped as Tesla's foray into an affordable mass-market sedan, which seems incompatible with BMW's premium branding strategy in the US and with a $60k ASP for the Model 3.
Well, I don't know what "hype" says, but it's fairly obvious by size and price that the Model 3 is in the small luxury sedan category, of which the BMW 3 and MB C-series are the big players. But if you need a citation here's an Elon tweet: "Sorta. Model 3 is like a BMW 3 series or Audi A4. Model S is like BMW 5 and 6 series, but much faster, more storage space + Autopilot" [https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/845282298291339267?lang=...]
The current prices of available Model 3s are an artifact of production decisions. They will sell $35k base models eventually. By comparison to the Model S it's affordable and mass market, and where it landed was always the plan. It was never going to be like a Toyota Corolla.
How about go and look at the original announcements/teasers, since you appear to be more a fan of the car press than I am?
How about something from their current web page?
"Designed to attain the highest safety ratings in every category, Model 3 achieves 220 miles of range while starting at only $35,000 before incentives."
I see a phrase at least implying mass-market appeal ("every category") and prominently stating the still-fictional $35k price.
> but it's fairly obvious by size and price that the Model 3 is in the small luxury sedan category
Maybe, but that's a narrow definition, and says nothing about Tesla's positioning of their product, only your opinion of its category.
> here's an Elon tweet: "Sorta
A tweet from Elon, especially one that, literally, begins with the word "sorta" and goes on to use the word "like", isn't exactly compelling evidence for "precisely positioned".
> You could also check with the car press
I just looked at those three articles, and I also saw nothing there about Tesla's positioning of this product.
> By comparison to the Model S it's affordable and mass market
Although affordable in comparison does, tenuously, make sense to me, the second bit does not. Something is either mass market or it isn't. If it's not broadly affordable to the masses, it isn't marketable to them.
... and as I mentioned in another comment, that's because they're shipping expensive cars for as long as they can. That's how S and X worked, too. It's not rocket science. If you don't want to pay extra, you can get a car in "Late 2018", according to the configuration gizmo.
Well it was Jan-Mar 2018, then Early 2018, and now Late 2018 for the standard battery. I was a day 1 reservation holder and watched the date keep slipping. I have little faith Late 2018 will be met at this point so I cancelled my reservation.
I'll just let everything sort out and buy an EV in 3 years when there are plenty of no-drama options.
I'm very tempted but I don't like how it looks. The I-pace looks great. Something between I-pace and Bolt would be fine. I expect VW to probably have plenty to offer, for example, in a few years.
If I had to buy an electric commuter car today I'd get a BMW i3. It's ugly as sin but they are practically giving them away used, and it's utterly fascinating.
Software updates can possibly fix most of the complaints?
Any non-software problems further the theory that the quality of any car lies in the assembly line itself; Modern auto manufacturers’ core product is actually their factory.
I've owned a Model 3 for over 5 months now with almost 6k miles on it. All I can attest to is my personal experience and the experience of some friends who also own a Model 3. Performance and handling on this car is truly amazing. Autopilot (at least in my personal experience) has been excellent. That said I understand the limitations of Autopilot and keep cautious oversight when it's on. I've head a few minor issues with the car but they are very minor compares to how great the car has been. For example, my trunk is difficult to close. One of the panel pieces was bulging out but service ranger fixed that. And sometimes the car doesn't recognize my phone to start the car, so I need to start it from the app or use the key card. Hopefully Tesla will be able to iron out these issues, and other issues that early owners have had. But I went into it knowing that I'm an early owner and will face some issues on first gen, first year car. All first gen, first year cars have their share of problems.
But overall, I suggest those who seriously want to know what kind of car the Model 3 is, is to test drive the car. And to ask Model 3 owners about the car. The vast, vast majority of Model 3 owners I've talked with tell me the car is truly amazing.
I am trying to think of any other first generation first year car that had a problem so basic as being on the order of "car doesn't recognize the key/keyfob and so won't start" and I can't think of one.
As far as the radio volume issue they were having: My 1997 Audi A4 had a similar problem. Unlike the Tesla, I didn't have the option of a firmware update to fix it. :-)
OP did say that the key card worked but the phone recognition didn’t.
I’ve owned few cars with any sort of phone integrations beyond basic Bluetooth and they almost never work. Heck I own a Toyota truck they’ve been making for decades with a digital interface that’s probably five years mature and you still have to install one of their (overwhelmingly one-star rated) apps to do anything interesting with it. even if the app does work you get integration with a B-grade navigation app or iHeartRadio.
I think you misunderstood. He is saying the feature where it recognizes your phone is near the car and unlocks wasn’t working. The key fob and opening the app manually still work.
The key card is your backup for when the phone isn't available for whatever reason. It's not a valet key, it's the main car key. (Valet mode is activated from the touchscreen, or your phone.)
Personally, I'm looking forward to not carrying a bulky fob with me everywhere. The key card will go in my wallet with my other cards, and my pockets will be lighter.
Yeah, I misspoke. It's a card not a fob. Like others said, it isn't a valet/guest card. It is actually the main "key" to your car in addition to your phone.
My first-release Subaru XV wouldn't re-start lots during the stop-start feature... in traffic. You'd have to put it in park, completely turn the car off, take key out, put key back in, and restart the car. Turning off the stop-start was the "solution" offered online, which reset every time you got back in the car (so it was easy to forget).
Also the entire entertainment unit would "crash" every couple days, and not work until another full "reboot" of the car like above. The screen would just lock up, music would stop, nothing at all on the centre screen would respond.
I also had a VW Passat TSI that went back to the dealership 6 times in the first year for electrical issues. Everything from the gearbox sensors failing causing the car to go into limp mode, to the centre screen locking up like the XV (in this case it would just fail to boot when you turned the car on), to the electric seats moving themselves (bad ground). They ended up buying back that car after the entire motor AND gearbox needed replacing at 11mths in.
I've owned a fair few new cars, and very few haven't had issues. Most were so insignificant I just waited until next service schedule, but many needed to go back under warranty.
VW and Subaru don't rank near the top of anyone's reliability rankings. You don't seem bothered by the problems, but if you were you could always buy something like a Toyota/Lexus.
and yeah, Subaru doesn't rank too badly (sixth) on that list. I always thought of Subarus as being good, long-term powertrain reliability notwithstanding. The gas mileage they're getting while running normally-aspirated, full-time AWD powertrains is pretty impressive. I can't imagine why the parent's car was so utterly screwed up, but I wouldn't be happy about a problem that required me to turn the car off and take the key out.
I think the advice on getting a Toyota or a Lexus if you want to maximize your odds of not having problems like the parent described still stands. The conventional wisdom is that their reliability comes from making continuous small changes to their models instead of waiting to make major changes, although next year's Corolla hatchback looks like a pretty major one. It will be interesting to see what the first-year reliability of that model is.
It sounds like the key fob did work as others pointed out. However I'm sure there are still lots of unfinished things. When I was out in Chicago with my buddy late last year I got to drive the updated Model S and I noticed the windshield wipers wouldn't come on automatically whenever it rained. After digging through the menu we found a thing that said said something like "feature coming soon" for automatic wipers. Kinda sucks to not have feature a lot of very entry level luxury-ish cars have. Overall the tech is cool and I bet they offer a lot more future functionality through patching. Just feels like they are always in a rush to launch to get some cash in the door and they go with "that will do for now" as the solution.
I hear they got a patch out around last new years to finally address this.
It's only Model S with AP2 that had that problem: the original S and the AP1 S both shipped with working automatic wipers on day 1.
But yes, that's the kind of thing you should expect from Tesla... just like you should expect that the missing-but-common feature of backup-lines on the backup camera to be retroactively added 3 years after the initial cars shipped. Yin and yang.
Yea he has the AP2, thanks I forgot what it was called. Sadly that is the kind of thing I'd expect and it completely understandably takes away from the value of their products. Everyone has their own equation for what makes sense and I'm sure some are fine with these issues too. Good thing we have a free market with many options :-).
When I first got my S, if you left the windshield wipers on the automatic setting, and it had rained in the recent past, when you unlocked the car and opened the door, the wipers would activate once and throw water on you.
Mercedes, which uses the same wiper system, had the same bug.
The difference is that Mercedes never fixed those cars. Tesla did.
So yes, there are issues. But it's not a straight win for either Tesla or non-Tesla. It's just different.
I left my Keyless entry Mazda 3 keys on the drivers seat and it locked me out at the gas station. There are some things that should just not go wrong on a car!
I can confirm that it is amazing. Yes there are some software bugs but it's hard to care when your car is that fucking amazing. They release software updates often.
How do you like the touchscreen? This has always been my biggest concern. I don't like non tactile controls, and it sounds like some fairly simple and common features like mirror adjustments are buried in menus. Taking eye off the road for that screen doesn't sound good?
The UI is pretty intuitive and they are making regular usability updates. Many things on the car are automatic so you don't have to mess with controls anyway, such as windshield wipers, lights, seat position, etc.
No, I don't. The Model 3 still has volume and toggle knobs on the wheel, so you can adjust audio without looking. Similarly to other cars, you have to look for a sec if you want to do something more complex. But it's not really a problem at all.
That is true, I'm getting old and have memory seats now. I'm 6'4" so this used to be more common for me before memory seats. Or in other people's cars.
This comment was confusing to me because it's super-positive and doesn't mention the article, so I thought the article itself is also positive. However:
"Sixteen weeks into ownership, we've had so many issues with our Model 3 that we started a shared Google Doc to catalog various warning messages, necessary screen resets and general failures."
"We put down a $1,000 deposit to get on a two-year waiting list for this car and it's falling apart."
Some actual engineering of a snap together framework at the very least? (Which would be even cheaper than just taping it together in the long run...)
Some nuts and bolts, perhaps?
I have never heard of a mirror "falling off" of any consumer car unless it was in some kind of accident... especially not after a few months of ownership... of a $56,000 car...
It's a piece of glass. Adding such fastening would increase the cost of assembly significantly. Double-sided tape is an industry standard. Cars costing more and less than $56k use it. It just appears that it wasn't very good tape in this case. Good double-sided tape can stick very, very well.
>It's a piece of glass. Adding such fastening would increase the cost of assembly significantly.
But at least it would be guaranteed not lead to reviews of 3 month old cars where the glass mirrors were not falling off and making the company look poorly before it even gains mass adoption.
The engineering of early macbook pros was absolutely over the top and ridiculously expensive... but Apple knew that they were buying trust with that added expense.
You can't build trust with a taped on mirror that falls off into the lap of a powerful reviewer.
>Cars costing more and less than $56k use it
I'm sure that they do... but I suspect that the brands behind them have been around a bit longer than Tesla has.
If McDonalds serves me a crummy burger for the first time in the hundreds of times that I've frequented them... I'll forgive them and go back without hesitation.
If the brand new Uncle Ricks Burger Shack pops up and sells me an overpriced, crappy burger... I'm going to tell everyone I know never to waste their money at that lousy joint. (Before they've probably even had the chance to visit and make their own decisions!)
The Model 3 was Tesla's first start in the big leagues... they should have made sure that their mirrors were not falling off after a few months of regular use... that is the only point I am trying to make.
The fact that other car companies use tape to secure mirrors is irrelevant to my argument.
> The engineering of early macbook pros was absolutely over the top and ridiculously expensive... but Apple knew that they were buying trust with that added expense.
This is a myth. Early Macbook Pros weren't even actually unibody, even though they were advertised as such. Instead they glued two pieces of aluminum together, which would come apart after awhile. Numerous issues with screens delaminating and such as well.
They were certainly better-engineered than their existing counterparts, but build quality at Apple has always been a third-tier concern.
Ok so, bottom line, some software bugs, some cosmetic issues, some "we're not used to doing it like that" situations and a fabulous piece of driving engineering. Edmunds don't seem to have their automotive priorities in the right order here.
>In CR’s testing, Model 3's braking distance from 60 mph was 152 feet, a distance that the outlet claimed is “far worse than any contemporary car [it has] tested” and was nearly seven feet longer than the braking distance than that of a Ford F-150.
Another article[0] in this thread has more:
In a recent test of various 2018 F-150s, Motor Trend recorded a 129-foot stopping distance for the 3.3-liter XL Supercab model, while an upscale Lariat trim made the stop in 10 fewer feet. For comparison, a Chrysler 300S tested by the same publication made the stop in 109 feet.
For comparison, a 2016 Camry Hybrid:
>Stopping distance from 60 mph is around 125 feet, which is average for the midsize hybrid segment...[1]
Car distance (feet)
Model 3 152
F-150 129
Camry Hybrid 125
F-150 Lariat 119
Chrysler 300S 109
Sounds like the touchscreen is getting noise coupled into it from the ground of the car being different from the touchscreen's power supply. Assuming that they have something like 12V avail to power that unit, then a buck that gives you 3.3V, so probably somewhere in that chain there is a bunch of noise coupling in.. common mode noise.. gotta squash that..
I couldn't find it in the details but I would assume because that this is an early production car which had known issues and if you believe the more recent reports the car is in much much better condition now only after a couple months of production. Growing pains, if these were issues on a model 1-2 years old there would be issues but they've only been sending cars down the line for <5 months in any real numbers.
I can't wait to get mine, sure there might be issues but I'm pretty confident the amazing features will shadow any minor tape issues that can easily be rectified.
I don't care about the software bugs, software will only get better over time. For me the most important is build quality. And i think Tesla is doing its best to have a high build quality. Maybe for the first few cars rolling of the assembly line there might be problems.
110 comments
[ 127 ms ] story [ 2280 ms ] thread> "This car is a joy to drive on Angeles Crest Highway, and I don't say that lightly. Angeles Crest is a famously demanding road that winds up into the San Gabriel Mountains north of Los Angeles. You need brakes, power and a taut, balanced chassis to do it right. The Model 3 has it all. Body roll is minimal, the brakes don't complain, the steering is gratifyingly precise, and there are gobs of instant torque on tap. Plus, the regenerative braking function means you use the actual brake pedal less often.
> "It's a new kind of fun to lift off the throttle ahead of a corner and realize you've already scrubbed enough speed without even touching the pedal. After my drive, a friend of mine asked me how the Model 3 compares to the current BMW 3 Series, and I told him I'd rather have the Tesla. He laughed. I wasn't kidding."
According to the latest Consumer Reports test the model 3 failed pretty hard in that department:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/05/pump-brakes-consume...
But I get it. You're a volunteer in Elon's disinformation army. And you're such a dumb cuck that you don't even get paid for bullshitting the public.
From the Consumer Reports article[1]:
Because we saw some inconsistency in the braking performance, we got a second Model 3 (a privately owned vehicle that was loaned to CR) to verify our results. CR has tested second samples in previous situations to double-check our findings.
...
CR’s experience with the Model 3’s braking is not unique. Car and Driver, in its published test of a Model 3, said it noticed “a bizarre amount of variation” in its test, including one stop from 70 mph that took “an interminable 196 feet.”
“I’ve been testing cars for 11 years,” Car and Driver Testing Director K.C. Colwell said in an interview with CR, “and in 11 years, no car has stood out with inconsistent braking like this. Some trucks have. . . . It was just weird.”
[1]https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/tesla-model-3-re...
[1]https://electrek.co/2018/05/22/tesla-will-update-model-3-fir...
Not that Toyota hasn't had other sorts of firmware problems...
There is no logic to this belief of yours whatsoever. It was an easy fix because it's online-updateable firmware, not because it's "known technology."
That sounds similar to the feeling of driving a bus or other heavy vehicle with a retarder and/or Jake brake.
I find that one-pedal driving makes me much more mellow: I play a game where I try to never have to use the actual brakes.
Disclaimer: my first clutch lasted 120,000 miles.
Huh? How is engine braking (or, for that matter anything) on a fully-engaged dry clutch going to reduce its lifetime?
Edit: from the huge number of downvotes my previous comment is getting, apparently many HN users think they know the answer!
It's not necessarily that HNers think they know, even though I'm sure we do! :), it's that it's pretty clear that you didn't know but made a statement as if you did know, with no substantiation. Sadly, as it turns out here, it was based on "some guy somewhere said", which is a much-maligned standard of knowledge on HN.
BTW, I suspect the downvotes for this comment are for the combination of basically admitting that you're relying on hearsay and that, attempting to research the matter further, you were shocked (shocked!) that there were people arguing on the Internet and that was the end of the matter for you.
[1] or a matter of opinion, but this is an engineering topic, which, on HN, is generally pretty comfortably treated as fact.
> I wonder if replacing clutches during the normal lifetime of a passenger car will become a thing of the past
My gut says that clutches wear far more from starting at a dead stop than from any gear changes in motion, so taking rev-matching out of the hands (foot) of the human won't make enough of a difference.
I'd argue that, if that's the case, one isn't doing it right. Ideally, there is zero RPMs difference during disengagement and engagement during routine gear shifting.
One doesn't even need the clutch, if one is good enough at rev-matching. I expect the risk of damaging a gear or synchro makes this a bad idea in general practice, but it can help get a clutch that no longer fully disengages to a mechanic without a tow-truck, something important in my younger/poorer days.
I’ve got 212K miles on my original clutch (a 2007 BMW 3 series) so the wear isn’t too bad.
There are a couple of problems with the obsession for flat cornering.
One is that its uncomfortable for people in the car, particularly passenger, who are pushed sideways into the seat-bolsters and side panels.
More importantly is when lateral grip finally breaks there is no warning to the driver with a cocked wheel and gentle progression: it just lets go.
As a counter-example Mazda have always engineered some body-roll into the Miata / MX-5 so that it's fun and communicative in corners.
Ideally, the car would bank, rolling opposite. Then the force of the turn would push you into your seat, rather than out of it. But I'm probably misunderstanding something.
This honestly depends on the tires. A lot of performance tires lose grip very gradually. Don't know what tires the Model 3 comes with, but with a good set it shouldn't be an issue.
> As a counter-example Mazda have always engineered some body-roll into the Miata / MX-5 so that it's fun and communicative in corners.
I daily drive an MX-5 and the body roll drives me nuts. If you ever drive a modded Miata or an S2000/BRZ or a Porsche Cayman it'll be very apparent how their lack of body roll gives superior driving dynamics while still being very compliant. Not saying Miata is a boat, but it's overly wallow-y for a car of that size.
Body roll is going the wrong way to make it more comfortable. The roll is in the same direction that the passengers are being pulled, which makes the passenger impact worse as gravity adds to the pull as the car tilts. Contrast with a banked curve, which is essentially reverse roll, and is more comfortable because much of the force is directed "downward" into the seat.
The Model 3 seems more like an alpha/prototype than a real car for consumers. As soon as I saw the interior I knew it wasn’t going to go well, seems it’s worse than I thought. Add in the software issues and other bugs they seem to be in countering in this is a pathetic experience for a $60,000 car + years of waiting.
Here's my actual criticism: Is there actually a $35k "option" (base model) yet? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no".
I'm not going so far as a condemnation, but I'd like to see reviews of that model before passing judgment.
Also, is it common for "every other carmaker" to have that huge a difference in price within the same model, barring actual structural differences (coupe/sedan/wagon)? $56k is 160% of the $35k price.
The same thing was done with Model S and Model X. I have air suspension because elsewise I would have had to wait longer than the 9 months I'd already waited in 2012-2013.
The only difference between the current cheapest 3 and the $35k model is battery size, which affects weight and the max performance.
Does this jibe with your "all other carmakers" comparison? I do know that different models routinely get released at different times (separated by months), but different option packages?
> The only difference between the current cheapest 3 and the $35k model is battery size, which affects weight and the max performance.
And? How does it drive?
Disagree. Plus, I want a descriptive a review, like TFA, except for the car that's affordable.
> you'll have to wait.
Meanwhile, you'll have to live through the valid criticism that they haven't released a car at the promised price.
I'm curious how many of those have been sold since that does not include the autopilot package, meaning it doesn't even have traffic aware cruise control. It seems likely that people preferring Teslas would also have a strong preference for the autopilot.
Also, now I'm curious, other than sharing the numeral 3, is there evidence for the model 3 being "precisely positioned" against the BMW's 3 series? I haven't been following any of this that closely, so I only recall it being hyped as Tesla's foray into an affordable mass-market sedan, which seems incompatible with BMW's premium branding strategy in the US and with a $60k ASP for the Model 3.
You could also check with the car press [https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/model-3/first-drive] [https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-3] or the Tesla press [https://www.teslarati.com/bmw-vs-tesla-large-luxury-car-mark...].
The current prices of available Model 3s are an artifact of production decisions. They will sell $35k base models eventually. By comparison to the Model S it's affordable and mass market, and where it landed was always the plan. It was never going to be like a Toyota Corolla.
How about go and look at the original announcements/teasers, since you appear to be more a fan of the car press than I am?
How about something from their current web page?
"Designed to attain the highest safety ratings in every category, Model 3 achieves 220 miles of range while starting at only $35,000 before incentives."
I see a phrase at least implying mass-market appeal ("every category") and prominently stating the still-fictional $35k price.
> but it's fairly obvious by size and price that the Model 3 is in the small luxury sedan category
Maybe, but that's a narrow definition, and says nothing about Tesla's positioning of their product, only your opinion of its category.
> here's an Elon tweet: "Sorta
A tweet from Elon, especially one that, literally, begins with the word "sorta" and goes on to use the word "like", isn't exactly compelling evidence for "precisely positioned".
> You could also check with the car press
I just looked at those three articles, and I also saw nothing there about Tesla's positioning of this product.
> By comparison to the Model S it's affordable and mass market
Although affordable in comparison does, tenuously, make sense to me, the second bit does not. Something is either mass market or it isn't. If it's not broadly affordable to the masses, it isn't marketable to them.
I'll just let everything sort out and buy an EV in 3 years when there are plenty of no-drama options.
It seems more like a car built to quality standards of two decades ago, if you ignore the powertrain and infotainment systems.
Any non-software problems further the theory that the quality of any car lies in the assembly line itself; Modern auto manufacturers’ core product is actually their factory.
But overall, I suggest those who seriously want to know what kind of car the Model 3 is, is to test drive the car. And to ask Model 3 owners about the car. The vast, vast majority of Model 3 owners I've talked with tell me the car is truly amazing.
I’ve owned few cars with any sort of phone integrations beyond basic Bluetooth and they almost never work. Heck I own a Toyota truck they’ve been making for decades with a digital interface that’s probably five years mature and you still have to install one of their (overwhelmingly one-star rated) apps to do anything interesting with it. even if the app does work you get integration with a B-grade navigation app or iHeartRadio.
It’s not really a fair comparison.
Personally, I'm looking forward to not carrying a bulky fob with me everywhere. The key card will go in my wallet with my other cards, and my pockets will be lighter.
Also the entire entertainment unit would "crash" every couple days, and not work until another full "reboot" of the car like above. The screen would just lock up, music would stop, nothing at all on the centre screen would respond.
I also had a VW Passat TSI that went back to the dealership 6 times in the first year for electrical issues. Everything from the gearbox sensors failing causing the car to go into limp mode, to the centre screen locking up like the XV (in this case it would just fail to boot when you turned the car on), to the electric seats moving themselves (bad ground). They ended up buying back that car after the entire motor AND gearbox needed replacing at 11mths in.
I've owned a fair few new cars, and very few haven't had issues. Most were so insignificant I just waited until next service schedule, but many needed to go back under warranty.
New cars are complex machines that have problems.
and yeah, Subaru doesn't rank too badly (sixth) on that list. I always thought of Subarus as being good, long-term powertrain reliability notwithstanding. The gas mileage they're getting while running normally-aspirated, full-time AWD powertrains is pretty impressive. I can't imagine why the parent's car was so utterly screwed up, but I wouldn't be happy about a problem that required me to turn the car off and take the key out.
I think the advice on getting a Toyota or a Lexus if you want to maximize your odds of not having problems like the parent described still stands. The conventional wisdom is that their reliability comes from making continuous small changes to their models instead of waiting to make major changes, although next year's Corolla hatchback looks like a pretty major one. It will be interesting to see what the first-year reliability of that model is.
I hear they got a patch out around last new years to finally address this.
But yes, that's the kind of thing you should expect from Tesla... just like you should expect that the missing-but-common feature of backup-lines on the backup camera to be retroactively added 3 years after the initial cars shipped. Yin and yang.
Mercedes, which uses the same wiper system, had the same bug.
The difference is that Mercedes never fixed those cars. Tesla did.
So yes, there are issues. But it's not a straight win for either Tesla or non-Tesla. It's just different.
"Sixteen weeks into ownership, we've had so many issues with our Model 3 that we started a shared Google Doc to catalog various warning messages, necessary screen resets and general failures." "We put down a $1,000 deposit to get on a two-year waiting list for this car and it's falling apart."
Disclaimer: I work in automotive for not Tesla.
That is the most worrying report of all... taping together parts of a $56,000 automobile? Glass parts, no less?
Sounds like desperation is taking hold at Tesla imho...
Some actual engineering of a snap together framework at the very least? (Which would be even cheaper than just taping it together in the long run...)
Some nuts and bolts, perhaps?
I have never heard of a mirror "falling off" of any consumer car unless it was in some kind of accident... especially not after a few months of ownership... of a $56,000 car...
It's a piece of glass. Adding such fastening would increase the cost of assembly significantly. Double-sided tape is an industry standard. Cars costing more and less than $56k use it. It just appears that it wasn't very good tape in this case. Good double-sided tape can stick very, very well.
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_EU/Industrial-Adhes...
3) 3M Double Coated Tape 4492 is used to bond interior visor mirror glass to the plastic bezel.
To the grandparent: Your Audi likely uses double-sided tape too. :-)
But at least it would be guaranteed not lead to reviews of 3 month old cars where the glass mirrors were not falling off and making the company look poorly before it even gains mass adoption.
The engineering of early macbook pros was absolutely over the top and ridiculously expensive... but Apple knew that they were buying trust with that added expense.
You can't build trust with a taped on mirror that falls off into the lap of a powerful reviewer.
>Cars costing more and less than $56k use it
I'm sure that they do... but I suspect that the brands behind them have been around a bit longer than Tesla has.
If McDonalds serves me a crummy burger for the first time in the hundreds of times that I've frequented them... I'll forgive them and go back without hesitation.
If the brand new Uncle Ricks Burger Shack pops up and sells me an overpriced, crappy burger... I'm going to tell everyone I know never to waste their money at that lousy joint. (Before they've probably even had the chance to visit and make their own decisions!)
The Model 3 was Tesla's first start in the big leagues... they should have made sure that their mirrors were not falling off after a few months of regular use... that is the only point I am trying to make.
The fact that other car companies use tape to secure mirrors is irrelevant to my argument.
This is a myth. Early Macbook Pros weren't even actually unibody, even though they were advertised as such. Instead they glued two pieces of aluminum together, which would come apart after awhile. Numerous issues with screens delaminating and such as well.
They were certainly better-engineered than their existing counterparts, but build quality at Apple has always been a third-tier concern.
Another article[0] in this thread has more:
In a recent test of various 2018 F-150s, Motor Trend recorded a 129-foot stopping distance for the 3.3-liter XL Supercab model, while an upscale Lariat trim made the stop in 10 fewer feet. For comparison, a Chrysler 300S tested by the same publication made the stop in 109 feet.
For comparison, a 2016 Camry Hybrid:
>Stopping distance from 60 mph is around 125 feet, which is average for the midsize hybrid segment...[1]
[0]http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/05/pump-brakes-consume...[1]https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/2016-Toyota-Camry-Overview-c25...
I can't wait to get mine, sure there might be issues but I'm pretty confident the amazing features will shadow any minor tape issues that can easily be rectified.
Hopefully, this sorts it.
I still hope for the best.