> Ramdev and Balkrishna laid off the strikers, who then alleged that the ashram’s medicines contained unlisted ingredients, including crushed human skulls. A lab test found human DNA.
Well that certainly took an unexpected dark turn.
Pretty interesting article and worth a read, he seems like an interesting character. Based purely off this I'd say he seems to be a pretty unscrupulous businessman who hides behind a veneer of yoga and piousness, but who really knows.
I'd be very wary of anything the English media (or in general any WASP-oriented ones) have to say about this person.
- He is associated with the Sangh Parivar.
- Advocates for nativism of very anarchist character.
- Asks (and takes out ads) not to support multi-national companies (tidbit: East India Companies led to India's industrial ruination)
- He is massively popular, for having taken Yoga to the masses, and poses a threat to the geopolitically loaded "harvesting" efforts by Xtian missionaries (see Africa for comparison).
People who have done one or the other of the above have been targeted by journalists in India (Sadhguru, Kanchi Jeeyar, Nithyananda...), often with planted stories, and with backing by 'neutral' NGOs, or 'secular' state apparatus etc.
In short, what is not mentioned in the article is that, he has no shortage of enemies.
Personally, their products are often much much better (esp. the tooth paste & instant noodles), and often at a fraction of the cost of Unilever's brands.
Weirdly, I’ve seen human skulls for sale on eBay. I’d guess there are various issues in adding them to medicines however...
But it sounds possibly more likely someone trying to get back at the company to me. I mean, what’s the marketing value of adding human skulls to your medicines if you don’t tell people about it?
Elsewhere medicines claiming to contain human flesh have been sold on the black market, it’s all pretty horrifying:
The human skulls and skeletons sold for students should be bleached, probably distroying most human DNA if not all.
Temporarily owning a (second) human skull is legal in some countries under some circumstances. For example more than 5 years after the people passing out, scientific use only, and a permit from the family (or bones unidentified and left in an ossuary for decades). The governments allow thousands of permits each year.
I encourage you to look into (and avoid) tu quoque and whataboutism. They aren't convincing argument strategies.
As to your comparison, as far as I know Zuck isn't selling dangerous consumables, but rather selling your information. One has a direct harm, the other has potential harm.
I am not sure how you came to those conclusions you make.
Zuck isn't just selling data. The ads which are deeply targetted haunt you, it feeds on the insecurity of a person and reinforces their beliefs. This has caused many teenagers to suicide.
There are food safety institutions to inspect a product of his harm. If Swamy Ramdev is doing anything evil, he cannot get away.
There was one incidence when he was selling Gooseberry juice, but a food inspector didnt had its ingredient table, so they matched it with Apple Juice ingredient table. Of course, it would not pass the test. There are various such incidences where misinformation campaign on SM created paranoia.
Oh poo, corruption like paying off inspectors is clearly something that could be done. There is no need to start the discussion of tainted products with an appeal to bureaucracy.
The very essence of "whataboutism" is to deflect criticism by directing it at an unrelated party. Zuckerberg has literally no connection to this story, and bringing him up in this context is an intellectually dishonest attempt to change the subject. Perspective is about seeing the same thing from different angles. "But what about Zuckerberg" is not a difference in perspective, it's two completely different subjects.
More intellectually dishonest thing is to not recognize that both of them belong to an evil class of billionaires.
If there is a rabid dog in the street where you resided, it's not a big problem. But if there are 10 rabid dogs there, the severity of the issue is much higher.
Nobodies thinking should be restricted by the framing of an article.
I'm just agreeing that it's blatent whataboutism and kind of off topic to bring up something unrelated. I actually do think Mark is likely more dangerous.
> The very essence of "whataboutism" is to deflect criticism by directing it at an unrelated party.
>The very essence of "whataboutism" is to deflect criticism by directing it at an unrelated party.
The whole idea is that no party is "unrelated" and anything only makes sense when contrasted and compared, not on its own, on some absolute scale.
Even in the original Cold War meaning, the two parties weren't unrelated at all -- they were engaged in a Cold War, and one was criticizing the other. The accusation of whataboutism was then used to suss one side and keep the discussion one sided.
The whole point of accusations of whataboutism is to prevent the conversation to expand -- it's literally a thought-stopper.
>Perspective is about seeing the same thing from different angles. "But what about Zuckerberg" is not a difference in perspective, it's two completely different subjects.
That's not even a cop out. Perspective is about seeing a thing in general context -- how it measures, and how important it is related to others. Not merely seeing two aspects of it.
"Verb. put something into perspective. (idiomatic) To compare something with a similar thing to give a clearer, more accurate idea. You can put your worries into perspective when you realise how many people in the world are so much worse off than you."
How is mentioning an evil billionaire in a thread about some other evil billionaire not relevant? Downvoters clearly lack the ability to make connections.
What about Hitler and the Golden Gate Killer though? Mentioning an evil person in a thread about some other evil person is clearly and always relevant. Downvoters clearly lack the ability to make connections.
Baba Ramdev, chose to take Indian traditions back to the Indian people.
People who really wanted money/fame/wealth took it to the Caucasians (or of late the deracinated Indian middle class); and more often than not speak more in English than in any of India's multitudinous tongues.
Therein lies my respect for him. His "liberation theology" attacks India's problems on so many fronts, that it's truly inspiring.
Can confirm - was in India this February and Patanjli Corp. is everywhere. There are patanjli stores in small towns, big cities, posh neighborhoods and slums.
My parents know ramdev like they know a family member. 10 years ago my dad would start his day with yoga instructions from baba ramdev. FWIW getting people to do yoga was definitely good, because middle aged Indian men hardly do any exercise. So when Baba ramdev launched this line of products, somehow my parents put absolute trust in him. Nothing would convince them to look at finer print.
Patanjali corp. definitely looks like a heady mix of religion, politics and ayurveda. FDA equivalent in India will have hard time finding faults in those products because everything can be swept under the rug of "western consipariec" and boy power they wield.
For people outside india reading this comment must know why even educated people support ramdev. Its simple. Its the caste system in india. As per the vedas(the bible of hinduism) only the brahmin caste should be allowed to education. Basically they want entitlement by birth and not by capability.
Not sure if Baba Ramdev is all good and clean or not but I myself have used(and have been using) Patanjali's products and they are pretty good. If they are all herbal and chemical free as they claim then all good. But even if they are not, it would be same as using other products.
Baba Ramdev has a YouTube channel called Bharat Swabhiman. He has put up the hour long videos on how those products are made inside factory. You are welcome to check it out.
It would not be the same as using other products because lab tests have found impurities exceeding safe limits in his edible products multiple times. This is even mentioned in the article.
And nothing, not even herbs, are "chemical free." His whole shtick is based on the age-old crap of denouncing industrial products as full of harmful chemicals and projecting herbal products as nothing but beneficial.
I’m sorry, was it normal for us in India to go to Coca Cola or Maggie and get their side of the story when people were being frightened about noodles?
Usually I just look at what the testing agency says
>Nearly 40% of Ayurveda products, including items from Baba Ramdev’s Patanjali, were found to be of substandard quality by Haridwar’s Ayurveda and Unani Office, a Right to Information (RTI) reply revealed.
Out of the 82 samples collected between 2013 and 2016, 32 failed the quality test. Patanjali’s Divya Amla Juice and Shivlingi Beej were among the products that failed to meet the quality standards.
Last month, the armed forces’ Canteen Stores Department (CSD) had suspended the sale of a batch of Patanjali’s amla juice after it ‘failed’ a quality test carried out at West Bengal Public Health Laboratory.
—————-
The company story will be the same “our material is safe and fine.”
Amla juice controversy arose because food inspector didnt had its ingredient table for Amala juice, so he matched it with Apple Juice ingredient table. Of course, it would not pass the test and the product will be called substandard.
There are various such incidences where misinformation campaign on SM created paranoia. Patanjali wanted Amala juice to be passed a ayurvedic medicine, but they insisted on having it as consumer product. But you know Amala juice are again available in cateen stores and the controversy has been resolved.
Please dont fall for one sided story, it would be good to look into official response from the company. Even a judge has to listen to the story of criminal before anouncing final punishment.
There are multiple food labs in country. It can be state or central govt owned. Swamy Ramdev cannot cheat all of them, all the times.
What ingredients does juice have besides water and juice? (okay, maybe sugar). Most juice _is_ apple juice anyway because it's the cheapest thing to make and its flavor can be masked. I can't imagine the gooseberry yield is enough to meet the demand for the product.
What you're saying literally isn't corroborated anywhere online on top of not making sense.
The testing authority said "unfit for consumption" and the company's official position on this was that their amla juice is not a drink but a medicine and that it should be tested by a different agency...
Seems like some people are really into power, to the extent that they'll forswear most of the things people generally use power to obtain (money, material possessions, sex, etc) and just focus on the power itself as an end.
If Indian movies (no no not just Bollywood) had a site like tvtropes, this one would be real life example of SmilingStealthySanyasi. Though many of the modern sanyasis shun the stereotypical saffron robes (while maintaining the essential flowing beards), they are living embodiment of this trope nonetheless. Such characters were rife in Indian movies till late 90s. These guys are typically evil, ranging from simple peripheral villains, to owners of casinos with attached brothel services, to full fledged drug lords and terrorists.
As for Ramdev, though we don't know yet if he is evil of that proportion, there is no dearth of people speculating that he launders money, which is worse. They also speculate who his clients are. But, of course, these speculators don't have enough time, money and motivation to follow up and provide proof; they wait and watch, hoping to say "I told you so" one day. But since the political clout these sanysais wield is common knowledge, its anyone's guess as to when the reveal will happen. These poor sods are more likely to die of old age without ever uttering that.
Yeah, it's not like he became big in a political regime which tried to kill him. We should wait for the "reveal" because people are speculating and Bollywood portrayal of sanyasis is as good as having proof.
> Patanjali’s ayurvedic brand has soared in the climate of Hindu nationalism that lifted India’s ruling party, the right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party, to victory in 2014
This is wrong on so many levels. People got tired of corruption from the previous Govt and voted for Modi who had a track record of clean govt for over 12 years. If Hindu Nationalism is a thing, BJP would come to power every time because over 70% of the population in India is Practicing Hindu's.
Let them have a name for defeat of their ecosystem. Its apparent that we devout Hindus are alone in the world. None of the world institution lean to speak on behalf of us. It will not stay like this for long.
It is tragic that being "devout hindu" has turned into "Us vs. Them" when in fact hindu religion advocates universality for all living beings (chetana) even non-living (jada) but the profound lessons are conveniently overlooked for sectarian politics. The core message of Bhagvata-Gita and Bhagvata-Purana, two of the most revered scriptures is the "Everything is the Lord, there is nothing besides the Lord" Bhagvada-Gita Chapter 7 Verse 19,
bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ
"Vasudevah sarvam iti", everything is the Lord there is nothing besides the Lord.
Jesus Christ said "If you do not love your brother whom you can see, how can you love God whom you cannot see?"
If "devout hindus/christians/etc" realize this message the World could be heaven on earth.
After most hindu prayers there is invocation of "Shanti Shanti Shanti" i.e. Peace Peace Peace to All.
It is most unfortunate that such ancient religion has forgotten its core principle.
You deleted your previous question while I was composing...
>1. Why did Krishna guide Arjun to kill Kaurawa?
After Pandavas completed their 13 years of exile imposed by Kauravas and demanded for half of the kingdom which was rightfully theirs, Duryodhana adamantly refused. Lord Krishna wanted to avoid war so he went to negotiate with Kauravas on behalf of Pandavas and he asked for just 5 villages instead of half the kingdom, Duryodhana famously replied "Without war, I will not yield even the amount of land on a pinhead",so war was inevitable.
> 2. Why did Krishna believe that Duryodhan does not deserve power?
Had Duryodhana acceded to Lord Krishna's demand of mere 5 villages instead of half kingdom, Duryodhana and inturn Kauravas would have lived but Duryodhana was envious of Pandavas and that led to his downfall.
Initially, Arjuna is reluctant to take up arms against his own cousins but Lord Krishna advocated that doing nothing is also doing something i.e. tolerating injustice is also a sin as a warrior. Arjuna was thus convinced of his duty as warrior and was victorious in this holy war/ dharma yudha.
Hence,it was Duryodhana's own undoing and in this "holy war", i.e. "dharma yuddha", the Kauravas perished.
P.S: In India, the word "dharma" is mistranslated as "religion" but its true meaning is duty. One of the key precepts of Bhagvata-Gita is to perform your duties without expectation of fruit of your labour i.e. nishkama karma yoga.
I deleted my earlier response, because it was not logically ordered for others to make sense. So I rewrote it.
I still dont know if you agree with me on this that Hindus dont have fair representation in english speaking global media or textbooks.
Your answers are factual, and lack psychological dimension. So let me add another question.
From your answers, it appears that it was easier for Krishna to convince Arjuna to kill his brothers & relatives than convincing Duryodhan of giving up five villages. If Krishna was really a god or god like, why/how did he fail to convince Duryodhan for giving up villages? What stoped him for pursuing Duryodhan one more time? Why Krishna's "godly" influence didnt work on Duryodhan? Why was war necessary?
few additions to your answer:
Dharma also means people with character, thats why Yudhisthir is known as Dharmraaj. Its opposite is Adharmi (अधर्मी) which means undisciplined person.
I dont think Dharma yuddha will translate into "Holy war". Dharma also means discipline or law. So Dharma yuddha means a war to bring law on the land. It is similar to how various countries are attempting to bring self-sustaining democracy in Afganistan.
The total count of human warriors participating in Mahabharata was approximately 3,936,600[0]. Of which less than 10 warriors survive the devastating war. Five Pandavas, Lord Krishna, Ashwatthama, Kripacharya etc.
>Barbarik
The character Barbarik[1] was so powerful that whichever side he chose Pandavas/Kauravas they would grow immensely powerful and it was Barbarik's obligation to fight for the weaker side hence he would keep oscillating between both sides thereby killing everyone except himself. Hence Lord Krishna asks his head in charity and in return Barbarik's head is planted atop a hill overseeing the battle.
After the war, victorious Pandavas were rejoicing and there was banter between regiments of Arjuna and Bheema that their leader was pivotal to victory. When the warriors questioned Lord Krishna who was the "Achilles" of the war, the Lord said why don't you approach Barbarik, he has witnessed the war with a panoramic view. On questioning Barbarik responds,
though for rest of you it might seem that warriors from both sides killed each other, I saw from my vantage point that the Lord's discus (Sudarshan Chakra) killed everyone.
To rid the earth of cruel and unjust kings the war was imperative as per the Lord.
After the war, Lord Krishna visited Gandhari, mother of Duryodhana and Kauravas. Gandhari was devastated on hearing death of her 100 sons, she asked the Lord "O Lord, you are Bhagwan(God), if you wanted, you could you avoided the war and spared my children but you didn't and let annihilation of my children. Just as my family tree has been culled, I curse you O Lord that your clan share the same fate as mine.".
The Lord merely smiled and accepted her curse because after destroying the corrupt warriors, the most powerful family left was his own, the Yadavas or Yadu-Vansh/Yadu-clan. Some time later, the large Yadava family (circa ~millions) gathered for a festival and during merrymaking were heavily intoxicated which lead to eventual fighting in inebriated state and death of entire Yadava-clan except Lord Krishna and Balaram.
>With the above backstory, now we can ponder why did the Lord did not stop the war.
As Gandhari questioned, it was possible for the Lord to avoid war but he did not to teach humanity the savagery of war, brothers killing brothers, uncles their nephews.
>Bhagvata-Gita
The whole of Bhagvata-Gita is instructed by Lord Krishna to Arjuna but Arjuna is merely a medium, every human being is the real focal target. It is instruction on how to lead an ideal life and before death realize the supreme goal of life i.e. moksha/salvation/one-ness with the Lord.
Had the Lord avoided the war we would not have Mahabharata war as example of annihilation of 3.9m warriors.Back to the present age, it took us three colossal World Wars to learn this ancient lesson. Clearly us humans need to be reminded of our lessons repeatedly.
You are correct on Dharma-Yuddha not translating to "holy war", it was my attempt to simplify the idea to western audience.
>On Hindu representation in western media:
Personally, though I am a practicing Hindu, I believe in the concept of "universality" of ancient Hindu tradition and its modern counterpart from the scientist Carl Sagan[2]
“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.”
All of us trace our origin to stars and yet we pigeonhole ourselves into Hindu/Muslim or While/Black. If we are the same at the core and only superficially different why waste precious breaths over petty differences.
Ending with another Carl Sagan quote:
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
Hindu nationalism has always been a thing and Congress too practiced it. Otherwise they wouldn't have been in power for over half a century.
The difference between Congress and BJP is that Congress is a bit more opportunistic, so will cultivate any votebank that helps them get into power. BJP is a bit more ideological and prefers to cultivate Hindu votebank over other votebanks. I would say they now have a reliable enough votebank that they've given up any pretense of being anti-corruption and are being honest about their power plays (See recent Karnataka elections).
Patanjali has give a tough competition to other products. I read in local newspaper that, Parle's ( A popular biscuits company ) top level manager saying that, his mother and other family members are eat Patanjali biscuits. i.e. they have competition in their home even!
I use their toothpaste all the time. It has a very earthy organic flavor and immediately contrasts with the strong 'chemical' taste of traditional toothpaste.
To be fair, the toothpaste though is an exception. Most of the patanjali products are similar to other products on the market - the only difference seem to be that they skip the strong flavors/chemicals in favor of the basic ones and market it as more 'organic'. The subtext is that they are also a LOT cheaper so the market laps it up.
Indians have a widespread distrust of western personal care products and the science of Ayurveda is considered superior. Patanjali has taken the first step in monetizing this belief at scale. I don't think they would be the last.
Ayurveda is poised to go the way of Yoga. Everyone should get ready to hop on.
The best thing is that other companies like Colgate etc have started including the Panchanga (Hindu calendar) to voo consumers. Otherwise there is no way they can even compete with Patanjali brands. This is a new age that is beginning, an age of truth & hopefully it will continue.
Try Patanjali's Chyawanprash as well, much better than the others.
The number of people from India who fall for this nonsense is astonishing; it would make more sense if it was just targeted at the poor and uneducated, but it seems to encompass everyone. I guess education doesn't cure stupid.
Be careful when you try to paint an entire field with a single color. There is a prevalent trend of doing this even though one can't even name 3 not so typical ayurvedic medicines.
Ayurvedic system isn't completely pseudo-science, though there are some nonsensical stuffs here and there. I mean when someone says ayurvedic system can treat cancer, you have reasons to laugh at it.
I am not a doctor or even a pharmacist but my dad's been running a medical shop since last 45 years. And he sells entire range of Ayurvedic medicines along with allopathic medicines.
I know of hundreds of cases where ayurvedic medicines performed far better than allopathic medicines. Yes hundreds of cases. In fact, even I myself have recommended ( and have used myself) a particular ayurvedic medicine for treatment of chronic fever where allopathic treatment just didn't work. And it worked miraculously in every single cases. There are countless other examples.
My point is, don't call ayurvedic system pseudoscience just because it is 'intellectually superior' viewpoint. Have seen too many people calling ayurvedic system bullshit even when they can't even tell the name of 3 medicines.
If you’re trying to legitimize something that isn’t rooted in modern science, I’d advise against the use of “allopathic” as the adjective of choice when speaking of modern, science-based medical study.
The term was coined by a homeopathic doctor with he perceived intent of siloing modern scientific medication and medical study rather than attributing the legitimacy it’s earned due to the accepted rigours of the scientific process.
Not that homeopathic or Ayurvedic is not necessarily effective, but unless it’s submitted to the rigours of scientific study, it’s not science. Therefore if it passes itself off as science, it is a pseudoscience. In that case it doesn’t matter how many names anyone knows.
Science is a course to best-effort prove things to be true—to that end it's been the most successful yet. The reason it's been successful is rigorous testing and data-gathering. And intellectual honesty. That's another discussion, maybe.
I agree, but if something really works the profit seeking soulless bigpharma corporation will run a clinical experiment and start to sell it in bottles.
So if some cure is true and has a wide profitable market, it will be part of science soon. Most of the traditional cures that worked has been absorbed in science and are no longer call "traditional". What we call "traditional" are the leftovers.
Nope, it's the other way around. Because they can't protect the recipe there are no profits to be made and therefore no incentive to run trials. It get's worse. If a traditional recipe works better, doctors can't prescribe that because it's 'untested' and in the end we get people paying more for inferior products.
> The term was coined by a homeopathic doctor with he perceived intent of siloing modern scientific medication and medical study rather than attributing the legitimacy it’s earned due to the accepted rigours of the scientific process.
The term was coined -- before 'medicine' became 'scientific' -- to point out the philosophical defects of 'heroic medicine', which used bloodletting, blister agents, mercury treatments, etc to punish the illness out of the patient. Allopathic doctors were commonly despised because they weren't helpful for many conditions.
Homeopathic philosophy was that the body can fix itself, if it were properly supported - clean environment, good diet, etc.
Homeopathy is not about the body fixing itself. It's the idea (as implied by the homeo- part) that a disease can be cured by a substance that causes the same symptoms as those of the disease.
To make this idea work without killing the patient, the substance is diluted to such a degree that literally nothing (literally literally!) of it is left, because atoms and molecules were not known at the time the homeopathic ideas were dreamed up. So it's no surprise that it doesn't work, as a homeopathic medicine is entirely devoid of any trace of active ingredient.
Funny how it doesn’t work for difficult things that will kill you, like cancer, but supposedly works great for stuff that usually goes away on its own anyway.
Proponents of homeopathy will say they’ve seen hundreds of successful cases too, despite the fact that the patients are receiving nothing but water.
If the stuff works, controlled studies will back it up.
Maybe some do actually work, but are they good for you? For example, cinnabar (mercury) really does help with sore throats - almost instant relief. But is it good to take? Almost certainty not! It's a toxic metal.
It’s all about in the western world too. How many people understand how their medicine works, or even the processes by which their medicine is vetted. Or even the statistics around their medicine?
In general, I’d guess they don’t. The vast majority of people just trust that the system works and is not corrupt.
So I wouldn’t be too quick to judge. Because we’re starting to see a break down in trust in the western world too (for example with the anti-vaccination movement). And because trust doesn’t have a firm rational basis, once it breaks down it’s hard to restore...
I didn't vote your comment down, but I would suspect it was this line:
> Because we’re starting to see a break down in trust in the western world too (for example with the anti-vaccination movement).
This sentence is borderline-sympathetic with the anti-vaccination crowd. The most down-voted comment I've ever posted at HN was somewhat anti-vaccination: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17059316
(I had chickenpox. Once. It was a very mild case. If the medical scientists cared about science, they'd try to figure out why children have varying levels of severity in their immunity-building experiences of chickenpox. But vaccines are perfectly safe (except for the children who definitely can't have them), so the official medical standard of care calls for vaccinating against everything as soon as possible.)
Oh, it wasn’t meant to be sympathetic at all. I guess I didn’t clearly express myself.
I was trying to point out that belief in pseudo-science comes about through a loss of trust in societies institutions. Why people lose trust is another discussion, but I don’t think it’s through an entirely rational process...
> Why people lose trust is another discussion, but I don’t think it’s through an entirely rational process...
I think "losing trust" is entirely a rational process. 20th century medical science suffered from single-causism [0] and frequently jumped to conclusions [1]. Institutions built treatment programs based around simplistic assumptions which were later shown to be false (cardiology/cholesterol, psychiatry/chemical-imbalance, cancer/genetics, etc), but never corrected course.
I believe the so-called 'obesity Epidemic' is mostly a simple case of mass-poisoning with polyunsaturated oils. The experts interpreted preliminary science to decide that saturated fat was unhealthy, told us that polyunsaturated fats were safer, and the public's health has suffered ever since.
Modern medicine is great when it works, or at least helps a little. The failures of modern medicine deserve more discussion.
Yoga was pseudoscience once. Now there is overwhelming evidence in support of it. Ayurveda descends from a similar lineage. The turmeric latte that the western world is infatuated with at the moment is just the tip of the Ayurveda iceberg.
The only reason Ayurveda isnt backed clinically is because it hasnt been subjected to it. But it will, exactly the way Yoga did. Yoga and Ayurveda are backed by science the just not in a clinical sense because it wasnt possible back then. They still went through an iterative development phase rooted in experiments and observation.
Also, the link you quoted doesnt discredit Ayurveda at all. Its about medicines sold in the name of Ayurveda having heavy metals.
For example breathing techniques help in concentration "The Yogi masters were right – breathing exercises can sharpen your mind. New research explains link between breath-focused meditation and brain health" http://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/the-yogi-masters-were...
Not to mention the link between psychology conditions, like anxiety, depression, etc. and breathing. Studies show that breathing techniques help improve mood, and in fact inviduals that have improper breathing, or arrhythmic breathing also tend to be afflicted by certain psychological ailments which when improved also reduce, and in some cases cure individuals.
He asked for evidence on the effectiveness of yoga specifically, not meditation techniques in general. Just because yoga and meditation have components of deep breathing doesn't mean that you can use research on the latter to support the former without a deep dive into the research methodology.
Pranayama is a specific set of asanas in yoga. That is to say these are Yogic methods, in addition to physical activities, and further philosophical activities that are encompassed within the Yoga system/school of thought.
I suggest you check once more around a month from now - 21st June, World Yoga Day, to be precise - from any of the thousands of yoga practitioners that you will find clogging the streets of your city.
In fact Ayurveda itself has a long history of both surgery (like cataracts, or facial reconstruction), and medicine. The fact of the matter is that for thousands of years it's foundation is based on:
"Anusandhana" "Anveshana" etc which are translated as Research. Ayurveda has the fundamental concept of Prama(Fact) that one statement made is truth only if proved by Pramanas, which include Pratyaksha(Perception), Anumana(Inference), Upamana(Analogy), Yukti(Planning) & Apthopadesha(Authoritative Testimony) each & every word in the samhita is written only after using these logic
India has a strong history of Logic, and philosophy that people discount on wholesale, while at the same time use it. For example the entire field of modern cognitive science, and consciousness science uses a tremendous amount of borrowed ideas from Buddhism, to Hinduism.
I feel that India generally isn't given enough credit for the progress it has made in the sciences, which is quite sad, and I can't help but feel that it's motivated by both an apathy among Indians towards their own history, and perhaps racism as many Indology departments in the USA tend to focus on the negatives, instead of positives as other religious, or cultural studies tend towards.
It's a matter of needing to have enough respect to submit to the rigours of the scientific method (come what may) if it wants to be classified as a science. That's about it.
> Yoga was pseudoscience once. Now there is overwhelming evidence in support of it.
just because something that used to be labeled pseudoscience turns out to be real science, doesn't mean you can use that fact to defend other pseudoscience claims.
> Ayurveda descends from a similar lineage.
what are you implying here? that yoga is an ancient indian tradition and is proven to be legit, Ayurveda is also an ancient indian tradition, therefore it's probably also legit?
I was simply implying that Yoga and Ayurveda both originate from the same 'body' of ancient indian literature called the Vedas. I am no expert though and cant comment on how closely related they are.
There's also the Null Hypothesis: that it isn't what was (seen to be) "working".
I went so far as to use quotes, because, how do we even know what "not working" would have looked like? If the Null Hypothesis were false, might he population actually have been, overall, healthier without all this "medicine"?
I would place it first in the "sports, health and social activities" category, over the research and science category. If yoga is a science, then walking with the dog is also a science.
There is a lot of scientific principles under metabolism and carrying of oxigen by blood in life beings, but this does not mean that anybody is a scientist just for taking a deep breath or stretching their muscles.
I would call much of western medicine pseudoscience, or perhaps more accurately fraud. I’m referring to when drugs that are widely prescribed turn out to be ineffective once unbiased studies are done, or it comes out they have harmful side effects that the manufacturer covered up.
Cold medicines are pretty up front that they're just treating symptoms though, not actually curing the cold. Tylenol PM has been a godsend a time or two when I had a cold and needed to sleep because I didn't have the luxury of calling out sick.
I agree with you if you're talking about cough medicines though, because except for rare circumstances they are pretty much useless. Still gotta love DXM and that purple n yellow tho.
Cold medicine is usually a combination of Acetaminophen, Dextromethorphan, and Phenelyphrine. ALL of which are no better than placebo in randomized trials and meta studies, especially when you exclude industry funded ones or at doses found in over the counter cold medicines.
you're aware that Nepal has rejected many of their products ? The current government of India is in bed with Ramdev so there won't be any bans. it's very easy to give "organic flavors" and I can't believe educated people would fall for their traps.
'Educated' people once believed the earth was flat. We all know how that worked out.
Nepal has rejected Ayurveda products manufactured by one company because of contaminants. How is that a statement on the efficacy of Ayurveda ? There has been contamination found in batches of Coke/Pepsi bottles also in India - none of it is a statement on the efficacy of the underlying product.
Belief in a flat earth being a myth is, as your own link says, specifically about Europe in the Medieval era. No one denies that people considered the learned ones in their community at other times and places believed in a flat earth.
While the Patanjali brand products are quite decent and many times better (ingredients wise & effect) than competing products, it is a matter of great pride for Indians to use Swadeshi (made in India) products. Many of the products use ancient techniques & ingredients that, never mind other people, many Indians themselves feel ashamed to use (probably they are lured to everything Western).
That apart, Baba Ramdev is one heck of a human being, simple & very hard working. Follow his Prana Yama & other Yoga techniques to get rid of stress & many ailments in your body & mind.
I like to make multiple things clear which may cause confusion to many:
Ben Cair, author of the article, does not undersatand Hindi language. So lets not expect that he can sucessfully paint a correct picture.
Hinduism is not based on dogma, so calling it a religion is an insult to it. The correct word would be Dharma.
Similary, calling a Yogi religious person or Godman is an insult because a religious person is supposed to be sectarian whereas a Yogi sees everyone including opponents as equal.
Swamy Ramdev has been open about taking forward the movement of vedic renaissance. Patanjali is just a transparent tool to arrange funds to promote research in Ayurveda and forgotten scriptures.
Aachaya Balakrishna also has talked about reasons for suffering of farmer. He says that in developed country up to 80% is processed food, whereas here in India only 5-6% food gets processed. He likes to increase the percentage, so that our farmers gets to earn decent money.
Cow urine has anti bacterial compounds [1]. We Hinuds have been traditionally using cow urine for disinfection of a surface since thousands of years.
> Baba Ramdev renounced the material world. So why is he selling toothpaste, instant noodles, and toilet cleaner?
Renouncing the material world does not mean disconnecting from the material around you. It means avoiding the pursuit of seeking pleasure for five senses.
A yogi is the person who is indifferent to pleasure or pain, reward or punishment etc. It is the commitment which has to be observed first.
Also, we hindus dont have western holy/unholy concept. Our god/divinity is everywhere, be it enemy or shit or toilet cleaner. Everything is sacred, serving its purpose.
> Ramdev says his worldview is “scientific, secular, and universal”—but he also claims yoga can “cure” homosexuality and has openly fantasized about beheading people who refuse to chant nationalist slogans.
Read books by Swamy Vivekananda on Raj Yog, Karma Yog, Bhakti Yog and Gyan Yog to understand the Yogic philosophy and his point of view.
Swamy Ramdev has never opposed homosexuality as the perception given here.
Yes, he said that it is because of the respect for consitution he holds himself back otherwise he has the potential to behead those conspiring against the nation & its heritage.
I can certainly say that Ben Cair does not know Philosophy of Yoga, otherwise he would not be making such lose comments and wondering how can a "Godman" sell toilet cleaner.
Ref:
[1] Upadhyay, Ravi Kant, Pratibha Dwivedi, and Shoeb Ahmad. "Antimicrobial activity of photo-activated cow urine against certain pathogenic bacterial strains." African journal of biotechnology 9.4 (2010).
People buy Apple products blindly too and so do they buy Pampers (diapers). Indian markets are notnascent. How many people who do diddly squat research but swear by the soaps in Whole foods? Are these people any different? The whole world is looking for a way away from "synthetic" in the US the Whole Foods etc lead the charge in India Pantanjali is the brand associated with it.
My dad's been running a chemist shop for 45 years. He also sells ayurvedic medicines. And he'd been associated with right-wing outfits in the past.
It is not like Patanjali medicines are better than other. Some of them are (for example I personally use their toothpaste). It is more about cult system and current socio-political environment in India.
These days, in India, 'hindu nationalism' along with 'anti-Congress' movement is on the rise. And Ramdev has projected himself as an ultimate ambassador of everything Hinduism or Hindu-Nationalism has to offer (Yoga, Ayurvedic medicines, Made in India products, true ascetic life, spirituality etc etc).
The right-wing central government and rise of Ramdev are not two separate phenomena. They are closely entwined. And they both support each other. As things stand now, no political party can dare to touch Ramdev. He has too much clout because of his countless followers. Even his traditional political opponents don't want to mess with him.
His business is probably far bigger than described in many news articles. We don't have financial numbers. His tax filings have been shady and noone can question him. He's bought may be thousands of acres of lands from government at 75-80% discount so that he can 'promote yoga and ayurveda'. I also read somewhere he actually bought an island somewhere in Europe though not sure about it.
Even a small town with population less than 15000 has at least half dozen shops which sells only Patanjali products. No other FMCG company has this much clout.
This is all about cult following and current rise of hindu nationalism in india. Better ayurvedic medicines and Yoga teachers have always been around. But Ramdev was there at the right time (widespread use of SM, anti-Congress sentiments), did all the right things, projected himself as an ultimate 'patriotic and honest hindu yoga guru' effectively.
Now he is selling noodles, chocolates and cosmetic products in the name of patriotism and spirituality.
He seems to be doing well considering there are people who have problem with the words 'nationalism', 'right wing' etc. Baba Ramdev is neither of these. He's just a guy doing business and is pretty good at it. Whether you like it or not, he's the future of India.
"Even a small town with population less than 15000 has at least half dozen shops which sells only Patanjali products."
Is Patanjali some kind of pyramid scheme / multi-level marketing scam? The situation described above sounds like what happens when a bunch of women in a small US town start trying to sell Lularoe clothing or some other scam.
It isn't pyramid scheme. It is cult following. You can sell anything to anyone if you effectively project yourself as a spiritual leader.
This guy even claimed that homosexuality can be treated by yoga. And his followers send messages on whatsapp group which reads something like, "cancer is not a diseace. doctors use it as a fear mongering tools for making money. It is basically a vitamin B17 deficiency blah blah blah."
One reason Patanjali products are popular is because they are significantly cheaper than alternatives from Unilever or similar companies. With demonetization in India, middle class is still experiencing cash woes (and have less faith in the government), and will pander to cheaper FMCG alternatives for their daily needs. I believe this company is either going to crash or reduce its operations at some point in the future to remain profitable (unless BJP stays in power for the indefinite future). Either they will have to increase prices (due to raised wages of workers), which will make their products less competitive, or they will have to really spend money on replacing BS products that purportedly contains cow urine and animal remains.
Not sure if you have been to India but the "cash woes" were gone more than a year ago :) Patanjali products are selling well because people like the products and Patanjali doesn't seem to be driven by profit-motives ATM, thus leading to lower prices.
"Margo" and "Neem paste" were the only big brand-name neem based products on sale in supermarkets until a few year ago. Now every MNC brand has a neem/turmeric variant. It is no secret that a lot of Pharma companies steal traditional knowledge systems, isolate the active molecules and patent it. Modern medicine is also based on clinical studies and not full understanding of all the side effects. Ayurveda is based on 1000's of yers of clinical observations, with no commercial bias.
176 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 229 ms ] threadI know it’s cliche but it’s cliche for a reason.
Well that certainly took an unexpected dark turn.
Pretty interesting article and worth a read, he seems like an interesting character. Based purely off this I'd say he seems to be a pretty unscrupulous businessman who hides behind a veneer of yoga and piousness, but who really knows.
- He is associated with the Sangh Parivar.
- Advocates for nativism of very anarchist character.
- Asks (and takes out ads) not to support multi-national companies (tidbit: East India Companies led to India's industrial ruination)
- He is massively popular, for having taken Yoga to the masses, and poses a threat to the geopolitically loaded "harvesting" efforts by Xtian missionaries (see Africa for comparison).
People who have done one or the other of the above have been targeted by journalists in India (Sadhguru, Kanchi Jeeyar, Nithyananda...), often with planted stories, and with backing by 'neutral' NGOs, or 'secular' state apparatus etc.
In short, what is not mentioned in the article is that, he has no shortage of enemies.
Personally, their products are often much much better (esp. the tooth paste & instant noodles), and often at a fraction of the cost of Unilever's brands.
But it sounds possibly more likely someone trying to get back at the company to me. I mean, what’s the marketing value of adding human skulls to your medicines if you don’t tell people about it?
Elsewhere medicines claiming to contain human flesh have been sold on the black market, it’s all pretty horrifying:
https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/31/chinese-canni...
https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-ite...
Temporarily owning a (second) human skull is legal in some countries under some circumstances. For example more than 5 years after the people passing out, scientific use only, and a permit from the family (or bones unidentified and left in an ossuary for decades). The governments allow thousands of permits each year.
Asking for a sarcastic friend.
As to your comparison, as far as I know Zuck isn't selling dangerous consumables, but rather selling your information. One has a direct harm, the other has potential harm.
Zuck isn't just selling data. The ads which are deeply targetted haunt you, it feeds on the insecurity of a person and reinforces their beliefs. This has caused many teenagers to suicide.
He is as dangerous as Ramdev if not more.
Asking for an open minded friend.
If there is a rabid dog in the street where you resided, it's not a big problem. But if there are 10 rabid dogs there, the severity of the issue is much higher.
But this article isn't about the evil class of billionaires and who belongs to that class is it? So, it's whataboutism: 'what about mark zuckerberg?'.
Only if we restrict our thinking into how the article frames the world. Which is a sad way of going about reading things...
I'm just agreeing that it's blatent whataboutism and kind of off topic to bring up something unrelated. I actually do think Mark is likely more dangerous.
> The very essence of "whataboutism" is to deflect criticism by directing it at an unrelated party.
The whole idea is that no party is "unrelated" and anything only makes sense when contrasted and compared, not on its own, on some absolute scale.
Even in the original Cold War meaning, the two parties weren't unrelated at all -- they were engaged in a Cold War, and one was criticizing the other. The accusation of whataboutism was then used to suss one side and keep the discussion one sided.
The whole point of accusations of whataboutism is to prevent the conversation to expand -- it's literally a thought-stopper.
>Perspective is about seeing the same thing from different angles. "But what about Zuckerberg" is not a difference in perspective, it's two completely different subjects.
That's not even a cop out. Perspective is about seeing a thing in general context -- how it measures, and how important it is related to others. Not merely seeing two aspects of it.
"Verb. put something into perspective. (idiomatic) To compare something with a similar thing to give a clearer, more accurate idea. You can put your worries into perspective when you realise how many people in the world are so much worse off than you."
People who really wanted money/fame/wealth took it to the Caucasians (or of late the deracinated Indian middle class); and more often than not speak more in English than in any of India's multitudinous tongues.
Therein lies my respect for him. His "liberation theology" attacks India's problems on so many fronts, that it's truly inspiring.
http://www.opindia.com/tag/baba-ramdev/
My parents know ramdev like they know a family member. 10 years ago my dad would start his day with yoga instructions from baba ramdev. FWIW getting people to do yoga was definitely good, because middle aged Indian men hardly do any exercise. So when Baba ramdev launched this line of products, somehow my parents put absolute trust in him. Nothing would convince them to look at finer print.
Patanjali corp. definitely looks like a heady mix of religion, politics and ayurveda. FDA equivalent in India will have hard time finding faults in those products because everything can be swept under the rug of "western consipariec" and boy power they wield.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JTVbUw6hIo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YOFI403okU
PS: I suppose you understand Hindi language.
And nothing, not even herbs, are "chemical free." His whole shtick is based on the age-old crap of denouncing industrial products as full of harmful chemicals and projecting herbal products as nothing but beneficial.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/baba-ramdev-s-pata...
https://thewire.in/politics/ramdev-patanjali-fails-fssai-tes...
Indians out in force defending this fraud today.
Usually I just look at what the testing agency says
>Nearly 40% of Ayurveda products, including items from Baba Ramdev’s Patanjali, were found to be of substandard quality by Haridwar’s Ayurveda and Unani Office, a Right to Information (RTI) reply revealed.
Out of the 82 samples collected between 2013 and 2016, 32 failed the quality test. Patanjali’s Divya Amla Juice and Shivlingi Beej were among the products that failed to meet the quality standards.
Last month, the armed forces’ Canteen Stores Department (CSD) had suspended the sale of a batch of Patanjali’s amla juice after it ‘failed’ a quality test carried out at West Bengal Public Health Laboratory.
—————-
The company story will be the same “our material is safe and fine.”
Amla juice controversy arose because food inspector didnt had its ingredient table for Amala juice, so he matched it with Apple Juice ingredient table. Of course, it would not pass the test and the product will be called substandard. There are various such incidences where misinformation campaign on SM created paranoia. Patanjali wanted Amala juice to be passed a ayurvedic medicine, but they insisted on having it as consumer product. But you know Amala juice are again available in cateen stores and the controversy has been resolved.
Please dont fall for one sided story, it would be good to look into official response from the company. Even a judge has to listen to the story of criminal before anouncing final punishment.
There are multiple food labs in country. It can be state or central govt owned. Swamy Ramdev cannot cheat all of them, all the times.
What you're saying literally isn't corroborated anywhere online on top of not making sense.
The testing authority said "unfit for consumption" and the company's official position on this was that their amla juice is not a drink but a medicine and that it should be tested by a different agency...
As for Ramdev, though we don't know yet if he is evil of that proportion, there is no dearth of people speculating that he launders money, which is worse. They also speculate who his clients are. But, of course, these speculators don't have enough time, money and motivation to follow up and provide proof; they wait and watch, hoping to say "I told you so" one day. But since the political clout these sanysais wield is common knowledge, its anyone's guess as to when the reveal will happen. These poor sods are more likely to die of old age without ever uttering that.
In which alternate universe?
This is wrong on so many levels. People got tired of corruption from the previous Govt and voted for Modi who had a track record of clean govt for over 12 years. If Hindu Nationalism is a thing, BJP would come to power every time because over 70% of the population in India is Practicing Hindu's.
bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ
"Vasudevah sarvam iti", everything is the Lord there is nothing besides the Lord.
Jesus Christ said "If you do not love your brother whom you can see, how can you love God whom you cannot see?"
If "devout hindus/christians/etc" realize this message the World could be heaven on earth.
After most hindu prayers there is invocation of "Shanti Shanti Shanti" i.e. Peace Peace Peace to All.
It is most unfortunate that such ancient religion has forgotten its core principle.
[0]https://www.vedabase.com/en/bg/7/19
You quoted/misquoted from here or there and proved me sectarian along with saying we forgot our core principle.
Let me start:
Did you hear about this controvercy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_textbook_controvers...
When I say I am alone, I mean that I dont expect my fair representation in global stage as in the example above.
Looks like you know a bit about Gita. Allow me to ask two simple question?
1. Why did Krishna guide Arjun to kill Kaurawa?
2. Why did Krishna belive that Duryodhan does not deserve power?
If you cannot answer these simple questions, please dont preach me anything about Gita.
>1. Why did Krishna guide Arjun to kill Kaurawa?
After Pandavas completed their 13 years of exile imposed by Kauravas and demanded for half of the kingdom which was rightfully theirs, Duryodhana adamantly refused. Lord Krishna wanted to avoid war so he went to negotiate with Kauravas on behalf of Pandavas and he asked for just 5 villages instead of half the kingdom, Duryodhana famously replied "Without war, I will not yield even the amount of land on a pinhead",so war was inevitable.
> 2. Why did Krishna believe that Duryodhan does not deserve power?
Had Duryodhana acceded to Lord Krishna's demand of mere 5 villages instead of half kingdom, Duryodhana and inturn Kauravas would have lived but Duryodhana was envious of Pandavas and that led to his downfall.
Initially, Arjuna is reluctant to take up arms against his own cousins but Lord Krishna advocated that doing nothing is also doing something i.e. tolerating injustice is also a sin as a warrior. Arjuna was thus convinced of his duty as warrior and was victorious in this holy war/ dharma yudha.
Hence,it was Duryodhana's own undoing and in this "holy war", i.e. "dharma yuddha", the Kauravas perished.
P.S: In India, the word "dharma" is mistranslated as "religion" but its true meaning is duty. One of the key precepts of Bhagvata-Gita is to perform your duties without expectation of fruit of your labour i.e. nishkama karma yoga.
Feel free to query further. Peace.
I still dont know if you agree with me on this that Hindus dont have fair representation in english speaking global media or textbooks.
Your answers are factual, and lack psychological dimension. So let me add another question.
From your answers, it appears that it was easier for Krishna to convince Arjuna to kill his brothers & relatives than convincing Duryodhan of giving up five villages. If Krishna was really a god or god like, why/how did he fail to convince Duryodhan for giving up villages? What stoped him for pursuing Duryodhan one more time? Why Krishna's "godly" influence didnt work on Duryodhan? Why was war necessary?
few additions to your answer:
Dharma also means people with character, thats why Yudhisthir is known as Dharmraaj. Its opposite is Adharmi (अधर्मी) which means undisciplined person.
I dont think Dharma yuddha will translate into "Holy war". Dharma also means discipline or law. So Dharma yuddha means a war to bring law on the land. It is similar to how various countries are attempting to bring self-sustaining democracy in Afganistan.
>Barbarik
The character Barbarik[1] was so powerful that whichever side he chose Pandavas/Kauravas they would grow immensely powerful and it was Barbarik's obligation to fight for the weaker side hence he would keep oscillating between both sides thereby killing everyone except himself. Hence Lord Krishna asks his head in charity and in return Barbarik's head is planted atop a hill overseeing the battle.
After the war, victorious Pandavas were rejoicing and there was banter between regiments of Arjuna and Bheema that their leader was pivotal to victory. When the warriors questioned Lord Krishna who was the "Achilles" of the war, the Lord said why don't you approach Barbarik, he has witnessed the war with a panoramic view. On questioning Barbarik responds, though for rest of you it might seem that warriors from both sides killed each other, I saw from my vantage point that the Lord's discus (Sudarshan Chakra) killed everyone. To rid the earth of cruel and unjust kings the war was imperative as per the Lord.
After the war, Lord Krishna visited Gandhari, mother of Duryodhana and Kauravas. Gandhari was devastated on hearing death of her 100 sons, she asked the Lord "O Lord, you are Bhagwan(God), if you wanted, you could you avoided the war and spared my children but you didn't and let annihilation of my children. Just as my family tree has been culled, I curse you O Lord that your clan share the same fate as mine.".
The Lord merely smiled and accepted her curse because after destroying the corrupt warriors, the most powerful family left was his own, the Yadavas or Yadu-Vansh/Yadu-clan. Some time later, the large Yadava family (circa ~millions) gathered for a festival and during merrymaking were heavily intoxicated which lead to eventual fighting in inebriated state and death of entire Yadava-clan except Lord Krishna and Balaram.
>With the above backstory, now we can ponder why did the Lord did not stop the war.
As Gandhari questioned, it was possible for the Lord to avoid war but he did not to teach humanity the savagery of war, brothers killing brothers, uncles their nephews.
>Bhagvata-Gita
The whole of Bhagvata-Gita is instructed by Lord Krishna to Arjuna but Arjuna is merely a medium, every human being is the real focal target. It is instruction on how to lead an ideal life and before death realize the supreme goal of life i.e. moksha/salvation/one-ness with the Lord.
Had the Lord avoided the war we would not have Mahabharata war as example of annihilation of 3.9m warriors.Back to the present age, it took us three colossal World Wars to learn this ancient lesson. Clearly us humans need to be reminded of our lessons repeatedly.
You are correct on Dharma-Yuddha not translating to "holy war", it was my attempt to simplify the idea to western audience.
>On Hindu representation in western media:
Personally, though I am a practicing Hindu, I believe in the concept of "universality" of ancient Hindu tradition and its modern counterpart from the scientist Carl Sagan[2]
“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.”
All of us trace our origin to stars and yet we pigeonhole ourselves into Hindu/Muslim or While/Black. If we are the same at the core and only superficially different why waste precious breaths over petty differences.
Ending with another Carl Sagan quote:
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
[0]https://en.wikipe...
The difference between Congress and BJP is that Congress is a bit more opportunistic, so will cultivate any votebank that helps them get into power. BJP is a bit more ideological and prefers to cultivate Hindu votebank over other votebanks. I would say they now have a reliable enough votebank that they've given up any pretense of being anti-corruption and are being honest about their power plays (See recent Karnataka elections).
To be fair, the toothpaste though is an exception. Most of the patanjali products are similar to other products on the market - the only difference seem to be that they skip the strong flavors/chemicals in favor of the basic ones and market it as more 'organic'. The subtext is that they are also a LOT cheaper so the market laps it up.
Indians have a widespread distrust of western personal care products and the science of Ayurveda is considered superior. Patanjali has taken the first step in monetizing this belief at scale. I don't think they would be the last.
Ayurveda is poised to go the way of Yoga. Everyone should get ready to hop on.
Try Patanjali's Chyawanprash as well, much better than the others.
It seems pretty dangerous too:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755247/
The number of people from India who fall for this nonsense is astonishing; it would make more sense if it was just targeted at the poor and uneducated, but it seems to encompass everyone. I guess education doesn't cure stupid.
Ayurvedic system isn't completely pseudo-science, though there are some nonsensical stuffs here and there. I mean when someone says ayurvedic system can treat cancer, you have reasons to laugh at it.
I am not a doctor or even a pharmacist but my dad's been running a medical shop since last 45 years. And he sells entire range of Ayurvedic medicines along with allopathic medicines.
I know of hundreds of cases where ayurvedic medicines performed far better than allopathic medicines. Yes hundreds of cases. In fact, even I myself have recommended ( and have used myself) a particular ayurvedic medicine for treatment of chronic fever where allopathic treatment just didn't work. And it worked miraculously in every single cases. There are countless other examples.
My point is, don't call ayurvedic system pseudoscience just because it is 'intellectually superior' viewpoint. Have seen too many people calling ayurvedic system bullshit even when they can't even tell the name of 3 medicines.
The term was coined by a homeopathic doctor with he perceived intent of siloing modern scientific medication and medical study rather than attributing the legitimacy it’s earned due to the accepted rigours of the scientific process.
Not that homeopathic or Ayurvedic is not necessarily effective, but unless it’s submitted to the rigours of scientific study, it’s not science. Therefore if it passes itself off as science, it is a pseudoscience. In that case it doesn’t matter how many names anyone knows.
The point was `not science != science`
Science is a course to best-effort prove things to be true—to that end it's been the most successful yet. The reason it's been successful is rigorous testing and data-gathering. And intellectual honesty. That's another discussion, maybe.
So if some cure is true and has a wide profitable market, it will be part of science soon. Most of the traditional cures that worked has been absorbed in science and are no longer call "traditional". What we call "traditional" are the leftovers.
Homeopathy is not effective. It cannot be effective.
The term was coined -- before 'medicine' became 'scientific' -- to point out the philosophical defects of 'heroic medicine', which used bloodletting, blister agents, mercury treatments, etc to punish the illness out of the patient. Allopathic doctors were commonly despised because they weren't helpful for many conditions.
Homeopathic philosophy was that the body can fix itself, if it were properly supported - clean environment, good diet, etc.
To make this idea work without killing the patient, the substance is diluted to such a degree that literally nothing (literally literally!) of it is left, because atoms and molecules were not known at the time the homeopathic ideas were dreamed up. So it's no surprise that it doesn't work, as a homeopathic medicine is entirely devoid of any trace of active ingredient.
Proponents of homeopathy will say they’ve seen hundreds of successful cases too, despite the fact that the patients are receiving nothing but water.
If the stuff works, controlled studies will back it up.
Ayurveda claims that all illnesses are caused by imbalances in doshas. Please tell me how that isn't completely pseudo-scientific nonsense?
I don’t know a single prInciple of gypsy crystal ball gazing, but do I have to still be open minded about it?
The same with unani medicine or homeopathy?
Can you just point to some scientific studies instead of giving anecdotes?
It’s all about in the western world too. How many people understand how their medicine works, or even the processes by which their medicine is vetted. Or even the statistics around their medicine?
In general, I’d guess they don’t. The vast majority of people just trust that the system works and is not corrupt.
So I wouldn’t be too quick to judge. Because we’re starting to see a break down in trust in the western world too (for example with the anti-vaccination movement). And because trust doesn’t have a firm rational basis, once it breaks down it’s hard to restore...
> Because we’re starting to see a break down in trust in the western world too (for example with the anti-vaccination movement).
This sentence is borderline-sympathetic with the anti-vaccination crowd. The most down-voted comment I've ever posted at HN was somewhat anti-vaccination: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17059316
(I had chickenpox. Once. It was a very mild case. If the medical scientists cared about science, they'd try to figure out why children have varying levels of severity in their immunity-building experiences of chickenpox. But vaccines are perfectly safe (except for the children who definitely can't have them), so the official medical standard of care calls for vaccinating against everything as soon as possible.)
I was trying to point out that belief in pseudo-science comes about through a loss of trust in societies institutions. Why people lose trust is another discussion, but I don’t think it’s through an entirely rational process...
I think "losing trust" is entirely a rational process. 20th century medical science suffered from single-causism [0] and frequently jumped to conclusions [1]. Institutions built treatment programs based around simplistic assumptions which were later shown to be false (cardiology/cholesterol, psychiatry/chemical-imbalance, cancer/genetics, etc), but never corrected course.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_single_cause
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_to_conclusions
I believe the so-called 'obesity Epidemic' is mostly a simple case of mass-poisoning with polyunsaturated oils. The experts interpreted preliminary science to decide that saturated fat was unhealthy, told us that polyunsaturated fats were safer, and the public's health has suffered ever since.
Modern medicine is great when it works, or at least helps a little. The failures of modern medicine deserve more discussion.
The only reason Ayurveda isnt backed clinically is because it hasnt been subjected to it. But it will, exactly the way Yoga did. Yoga and Ayurveda are backed by science the just not in a clinical sense because it wasnt possible back then. They still went through an iterative development phase rooted in experiments and observation.
Also, the link you quoted doesnt discredit Ayurveda at all. Its about medicines sold in the name of Ayurveda having heavy metals.
Support of what?? Last I checked, there is a lack of (quality) studies comparing yoga to other forms of exercise.
Also, https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magazine/how-yoga-can-wre...
Not to mention the link between psychology conditions, like anxiety, depression, etc. and breathing. Studies show that breathing techniques help improve mood, and in fact inviduals that have improper breathing, or arrhythmic breathing also tend to be afflicted by certain psychological ailments which when improved also reduce, and in some cases cure individuals.
"Anusandhana" "Anveshana" etc which are translated as Research. Ayurveda has the fundamental concept of Prama(Fact) that one statement made is truth only if proved by Pramanas, which include Pratyaksha(Perception), Anumana(Inference), Upamana(Analogy), Yukti(Planning) & Apthopadesha(Authoritative Testimony) each & every word in the samhita is written only after using these logic
India has a strong history of Logic, and philosophy that people discount on wholesale, while at the same time use it. For example the entire field of modern cognitive science, and consciousness science uses a tremendous amount of borrowed ideas from Buddhism, to Hinduism.
I feel that India generally isn't given enough credit for the progress it has made in the sciences, which is quite sad, and I can't help but feel that it's motivated by both an apathy among Indians towards their own history, and perhaps racism as many Indology departments in the USA tend to focus on the negatives, instead of positives as other religious, or cultural studies tend towards.
just because something that used to be labeled pseudoscience turns out to be real science, doesn't mean you can use that fact to defend other pseudoscience claims.
> Ayurveda descends from a similar lineage.
what are you implying here? that yoga is an ancient indian tradition and is proven to be legit, Ayurveda is also an ancient indian tradition, therefore it's probably also legit?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali
I went so far as to use quotes, because, how do we even know what "not working" would have looked like? If the Null Hypothesis were false, might he population actually have been, overall, healthier without all this "medicine"?
There is a lot of scientific principles under metabolism and carrying of oxigen by blood in life beings, but this does not mean that anybody is a scientist just for taking a deep breath or stretching their muscles.
It's extremely rare to come across a product that delivers on its promises.
The problem is that everyone is just too stupid to see through the marketing. Regardless of whether the marketing poses as science or religion.
The FDA doesn’t care that the majority of cold medicines in Walgreens don’t work better than placebo because they’re deemed safe.
I agree with you if you're talking about cough medicines though, because except for rare circumstances they are pretty much useless. Still gotta love DXM and that purple n yellow tho.
Source: https://www.firstpost.com/india/nepal-drug-administration-re...
Nepal has rejected Ayurveda products manufactured by one company because of contaminants. How is that a statement on the efficacy of Ayurveda ? There has been contamination found in batches of Coke/Pepsi bottles also in India - none of it is a statement on the efficacy of the underlying product.
This is a myth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth
“Ayurveda medicine is considered pseudoscientific” [1]. (Yoga, on the other hand, has measurable benefits.)
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda
This history brings a new meaning to the term tooth paste in any case.
That apart, Baba Ramdev is one heck of a human being, simple & very hard working. Follow his Prana Yama & other Yoga techniques to get rid of stress & many ailments in your body & mind.
Ben Cair, author of the article, does not undersatand Hindi language. So lets not expect that he can sucessfully paint a correct picture.
Hinduism is not based on dogma, so calling it a religion is an insult to it. The correct word would be Dharma.
Similary, calling a Yogi religious person or Godman is an insult because a religious person is supposed to be sectarian whereas a Yogi sees everyone including opponents as equal.
Swamy Ramdev has been open about taking forward the movement of vedic renaissance. Patanjali is just a transparent tool to arrange funds to promote research in Ayurveda and forgotten scriptures.
Aachaya Balakrishna also has talked about reasons for suffering of farmer. He says that in developed country up to 80% is processed food, whereas here in India only 5-6% food gets processed. He likes to increase the percentage, so that our farmers gets to earn decent money.
Cow urine has anti bacterial compounds [1]. We Hinuds have been traditionally using cow urine for disinfection of a surface since thousands of years.
> Baba Ramdev renounced the material world. So why is he selling toothpaste, instant noodles, and toilet cleaner? Renouncing the material world does not mean disconnecting from the material around you. It means avoiding the pursuit of seeking pleasure for five senses.
A yogi is the person who is indifferent to pleasure or pain, reward or punishment etc. It is the commitment which has to be observed first. Also, we hindus dont have western holy/unholy concept. Our god/divinity is everywhere, be it enemy or shit or toilet cleaner. Everything is sacred, serving its purpose.
> Ramdev says his worldview is “scientific, secular, and universal”—but he also claims yoga can “cure” homosexuality and has openly fantasized about beheading people who refuse to chant nationalist slogans.
Read books by Swamy Vivekananda on Raj Yog, Karma Yog, Bhakti Yog and Gyan Yog to understand the Yogic philosophy and his point of view. Swamy Ramdev has never opposed homosexuality as the perception given here. Yes, he said that it is because of the respect for consitution he holds himself back otherwise he has the potential to behead those conspiring against the nation & its heritage.
I can certainly say that Ben Cair does not know Philosophy of Yoga, otherwise he would not be making such lose comments and wondering how can a "Godman" sell toilet cleaner.
Ref: [1] Upadhyay, Ravi Kant, Pratibha Dwivedi, and Shoeb Ahmad. "Antimicrobial activity of photo-activated cow urine against certain pathogenic bacterial strains." African journal of biotechnology 9.4 (2010).
Oh yes, he has a dark side too. Relevant reading - Godman To Tycoon https://www.infibeam.com/Books/godman-tycoon-priyanka-pathak...
Not that it’s bad or good. Just that it is.
Many people blindly buy patanjali material, even if it’s found to have issues or high ash content or other problems.
It is not like Patanjali medicines are better than other. Some of them are (for example I personally use their toothpaste). It is more about cult system and current socio-political environment in India.
These days, in India, 'hindu nationalism' along with 'anti-Congress' movement is on the rise. And Ramdev has projected himself as an ultimate ambassador of everything Hinduism or Hindu-Nationalism has to offer (Yoga, Ayurvedic medicines, Made in India products, true ascetic life, spirituality etc etc).
The right-wing central government and rise of Ramdev are not two separate phenomena. They are closely entwined. And they both support each other. As things stand now, no political party can dare to touch Ramdev. He has too much clout because of his countless followers. Even his traditional political opponents don't want to mess with him.
His business is probably far bigger than described in many news articles. We don't have financial numbers. His tax filings have been shady and noone can question him. He's bought may be thousands of acres of lands from government at 75-80% discount so that he can 'promote yoga and ayurveda'. I also read somewhere he actually bought an island somewhere in Europe though not sure about it.
Even a small town with population less than 15000 has at least half dozen shops which sells only Patanjali products. No other FMCG company has this much clout.
This is all about cult following and current rise of hindu nationalism in india. Better ayurvedic medicines and Yoga teachers have always been around. But Ramdev was there at the right time (widespread use of SM, anti-Congress sentiments), did all the right things, projected himself as an ultimate 'patriotic and honest hindu yoga guru' effectively.
Now he is selling noodles, chocolates and cosmetic products in the name of patriotism and spirituality.
> he's the future of India.
I think you wrote it as a joke. Or may be I couldnt see him that way as I am not a member of Ramdev cult.
Is Patanjali some kind of pyramid scheme / multi-level marketing scam? The situation described above sounds like what happens when a bunch of women in a small US town start trying to sell Lularoe clothing or some other scam.
This guy even claimed that homosexuality can be treated by yoga. And his followers send messages on whatsapp group which reads something like, "cancer is not a diseace. doctors use it as a fear mongering tools for making money. It is basically a vitamin B17 deficiency blah blah blah."
I don't know why the author thinks capitalism and holiness are orthogonal. Overall the article is full of these unfounded preconceptions.
http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/atms...
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/atms-run-...