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Ask HN: Offer of Employment retracted

271 points by joboffer ↗ HN
I was offered a Senior RoR dev position at a 50-ppl funded and revenue-generating bay area company last week. I accepted, signed, and was excited to join this company. Subsequently I gave my two-week notice at my current job (not in the bay area). They have started my exit process here.

This afternoon I got a call from the HR that they are retracting my offer as "circumstances have changed and they are eliminating the position". I am literally shocked as I have a perfectly good, well-paying job at a Fortune 500 company where I've worked for 5+ yrs that I resigned from to join this small company.

What is my recourse in this situation? I was told by the Engineering Manager in this company that I got two thumbs up from all the interviewers and they were looking forward to me joining. He even sent me tech documents to go over a couple days ago.

I don't know what to do. Not only does this affect my employment situation but also my immigration situation. Not having a job impacts my ability to stay in the US.

I can't go back to my current team now as it will not only look ridiculous but my commitment will be questioned as well.

Please advise. I'm just really distressed and upset right now.

167 comments

[ 1.8 ms ] story [ 207 ms ] thread
patio11
Talk to a lawyer and ask what "detrimental reliance" means. (Short version: what you just did owing to representation that they had a job for you. Comes with damages.)

Let your old company tell you you can't have your job back, don't make that decision for them.

tptacek
Careful about paying a lawyer up front, though, because it's apparently very hard to make a detrimental reliance claim about a rescinded at-will job offer; it appears to be impossible in several states (at least Florida, Louisiana) and very hard elsewhere.

In the US, most jobs are at-will (you can be fired for no reason, and you're not supposed to rely on your employer maintaining your job); a Rails dev job certainly is.

That said: Patrick is almost certainly right that your company will be happy to keep you on. It'd be almost irrational not to.

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Terretta
The "at will" issue is not as cut and dried if on a company sponsored visa.
apgwoz
I'm wondering if they discovered later that sponsoring a visa is more work than they originally thought, and that's what happened.
sounddust
I have a friend who is a lawyer, and his stance is that when it comes to employment, there are too many variables involved to make a good judgment on where you stand without contacting an attorney who practices in the relevant jurisdiction. Most people who lose their job think they're doomed because of at-will, but it's not that simple.

I'd recommend calling an employment lawyer. What will likely happen is that he/she will return your call, ask you a bunch of questions, and give you some very good free advice on where you stand and what your options are. If they can't do anything for you, they will tell you that without you having to pay anything.

joboffer
I don't want to make a decision for my current company. They may even let me have it back. I'm on very good terms with my team too and they were in fact, disappointed to see me go.

I'd just hate myself to go back with my head hung in shame telling them that 'oh my job didn't work out'...take me back. I had a farewell lunch yesterday. Everyone in my extended team knows I'm leaving. My exit interview is planned for early next week and they're processing my final paystubs.

I can't believe this level of unprofessionalism exists.

jacquesm
There is no shame in this, there is just the reality that you were dealt with in an unprofessional way and I think that they will see it just like that.

If you're any good at all your boss will be happy to see you back but I wouldn't count on a raise or promotion until you've more than proven to be there to stay.

And it wouldn't hurt to have a solid backup plan just in case they do decide to lay you off at some point in the future.

Keep in mind too that since you left voluntarily that if they do take you on again it counts as a new employment, essentially you're a new hire. You may even have to re-negotiate your salary.

Being out of a job normally would be hard enough, but since your residence depends on your job there is a very important reason to make this work.

rbanffy
> You may even have to re-negotiate your salary.

That would be nasty. The gentleman thing to do would be to pretend this never happened. Everything was conducted in the most civilized way. There would be no reason to change.

Well... I wouldn't change that.

What I would ask in return, at most, would be that, next time you give me a month of advanced notice. It takes time to replace a good member of the team.

You are employed in the US for 5+ years. How's the permanent resident paperwork going?

Oh... BTW, "you" != "jacquesm".

floatingatoll
It's not a blemish on your record that your new employer flaked out. That's a blemish on their record. Your job seems to like you, or they would have fired you for giving notice, right? So don't panic. Talk to your boss. It'll be an uncomfortable conversation, but that's par for the course in uncomfortable situations. You're still awesome.
catshirt
just to clarify, the blemish is his disloyalty to his previous company (i mean that strictly literaly- i would not call someone who takes a new job disloyal)
msisk6
This exact thing happened to me last year, too. Though in my case I was already between gigs so it wasn't as big a deal.

Look at it this way -- would you really want to work at a company that would rescind a job offer this way? It says a lot about a company that they don't have their act together enough to know if they can hire or not.

Good RoR devs are hard to find -- I'd just let your current employer know what happened and see if they'll keep you on. Just say that the offer they made was too good to refuse. And, as it turned out, was too good to be true in the end.

frossie
I had a farewell lunch yesterday.

Make a joke of it. If you get your job back, take all the same people out to lunch. Play up the funny side. Give a "take me back" speech, "what was I thinking" etc etc.

Laugh at yourself, and the world with laugh with you. With your immigration status at stake, this is not the time to stand on some misplaced ego thing.

mpk
> Make a joke of it.

This right here.

If you didn't have immigration status to worry about I'd say just go find another RoR job, the market is full of them ATM.

But in your case I'd say swallow your pride. You seem to be on good terms with your current team so yes this this will be a little bit awkward, but nothing more. Make a joke out of it and let people make jokes about it at your expense. Put it out in the open and laugh about it.

Don't apologize for the choices you've made (it was a business decision, not a personal one). Your manager and team will probably be relieved that you're staying, though you can probably forget any significant promotion in the short-term :)

If you can find some reasonable token of commitment (though I have no idea what that might be - anyone?), keep that in reserve.

noonespecial
Every once in a while you've got to double-take and say to yourself 'damn, there's some good advice floating around HN'.

This is one of those times. The process of leaving a job makes it feel so very final. A bunch of people made an effort to give you a good send off and just coming back seems like making a mockery of that. They gave you a good send off because they cared. You are the one who made the most effort and got burned the hardest. They'll understand. They'll be glad to have you back.

Hell, they might even feel like they dodged a bullet on this one and work extra hard to make sure you stop looking elsewhere for employment. "Remember that time we almost lost Bill to that startup? That was a close one, eh?"

pierrefar
You can return the favor. Throw an "anti farewell party" after they have you back and invite everyone on the extended team. Maybe not necessarily a party, but you get the idea.
megablast
I know exactly how the poster feels, but your suggestion is the best way to handle it. Do it this way, and it will be forgotten that afternoon. Do it wrong, and people may never trust you again.
[dead] piguy314
You might also consider paying for your teams food at the "take me back" lunch as a thank you gesture for their good will in sending you off.
muppetman
Thank you! There's so much moping and sadness in the world! Lighten up and laugh people!
speby
Better yet, who cares? Take your chances and apply to YC. This must be your calling.
jarek
Did you miss the part about OP's immigration status?
kno
What a careless advice, your are just telling him: just play lottery! With all due respect to YC, getting into YC is not easy.
khill
Just tell them the lunch was so good you've decided to stay.
flatulent1
Or tell them an evil twin tied you up and decided to try a prank.
flacon
Don't say "The position didn't work out", which would cause suspicion and make you look bad.

Blame them (Flaky Corp) for acting unprofessional.

Go into your current manager, tell them you are in a really difficult and awkward situation. That you have had some communications very recently that have made you very uncomfortable with the new company and made you reconsider your decision.

Your Boss will understand that messed up stuff happens sometimes and will want to avoid interviewing for the position. Tell your Boss you honestly do not want to leave the company now given this situation and that you want your old job back.

Value yourself and take charge of the situation. Dont just allow an awkward ego-feeling or unprofessional behavior by Flaky Corp to own you!

hga
In general I agree except don't lie!. Whatever reason would he have to not say "my offer was rescinded by Flaky Corp" and he can use that as an opportunity to praise the stability of his Fortune 500 company and that sector.
sumeetjain
Just a small addition to what everyone else is saying: After a couple months, no one will remember this event.

(I always find it easier to deal with unfortunate or embarrassing situations when I'm reminded that they appear more severe and permanent to me than they actually are.)

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nl
If you aren't terribly unhappy there, tell them what has happened and ask to come back. There is no shame in that at all - in fact it puts you in a pretty good position at your old job (because they now know your skills are valued elsewhere).

Another possibility is telling them what has happened, but say you still planning on moving so offering to stay for another month.

OTOH, there is plenty of RoR work around, so I'd be surprised if you can't pick something else up pretty easily.

stretchwithme
Totally. Put your resume on Dice or hotjobs and you'll have interest within a few days. Even if you go back, it won't hurt to have more confidence about your marketability
RealGeek
Stick to your existing employer. This event might be embarrassing but everyone will get over it.

If you leave the job; not only you will be out of job, but out of immigration status as well. There is a lot at stake, this could ruin your career and personal life as well.

Ask your current company, if you can have the job back.

geuis
Realize that in any good company, there will always be an expectation that people eventually move along to other opportunities. Don't feel any shame about going back.
pyre
In any good company that has been around awhile, there is doubtlessly a number of people that have left the company and come back again under much better circumstances (as in worked another job for a while and then came back). At the company I work for, there are a handful of people that have left the company and come back again over 2 or 3 times over the years.
strlen
There's no shame in going back, in fact, you'll likely be welcomed. It makes sense for you, it makes sense for them. Swallow the pride, do the rational thing.
angstrom
Unfortunately it does. I've seen the exact same thing at a startup where they hired a receptionist. The girl took the job and told her current employer she was quitting. Probably no more than 2 days later the company reneged on their offer. All I know is nothing legal ever came of it, but it made those of us working there that found out sick at the gross negligence on behalf of accounting to say the funds were there when they weren't. My guess is someone working a receptionist job doesn't have the funds or time to seek legal counsel.
jacquesm
Likely in the long run that move cost them dearly.
prototype56
I am not sure if i would take back someone who is anyway planning to leave.Even if they do they will fire after they are sure you are redundant, that will mess up your visa status. Search and take up any job for the time being and keep looking.
sigzero
There is no shame in it. The took back the job offer. No big deal. More forward and just tell your company you would like to stay.
adityakothadiya
I heard a similar story the other day by a friend of mine about his colleague. This guy left his job at previous company while his Green Card application was in the 2nd stage. He was tired of waiting in that 2nd stage for years with the hope of reaching to final stage. Finally he got too tired, and he switched the job to a different company. Just within 1 week of joining a new company, magically USCIS released new dates and that guy's application was able to go in the final stage of the Green Card process. Unfortunately, for that to happen, he needed to work with his previous company. He has no option than to talk to his old employer. They took him back.

Weird things happen with immigration cases. And big corporates are sensible enough to understand such situation and help good employees.

starpilot
Unprofessionalism? Retracted offers aren't new. During the 2001 recession, many fresh graduates newly at Boeing had offers retracted. At my current company, one employee left to join Doctors Without Borders. We gave him a farewell dinner, and talked about the work he'd be doing abroad. Two weeks later he was back in the office. Turned out, DWB couldn't take him after all (I don't recall the details). He made the best decisions given the information he had. He did nothing wrong, and nor have you. Explain the situation to your employer. You have nothing to be ashamed about, but maybe your new employer does.

And stop tying your self-worth to your career. You are not your work.

abalashov
It's not just a pride issue; your bargaining position in relation to your previous employer changes in this situation, whether you like it or not, whether or not your manager acknowledges it or not, whether you get the sa, me terms as before back or not, and whether they are nice people or not.

The fact is, you left, it didn't work out, and now you're back because you need something. Next time something good comes up and works out, you're going to leave, they reason. That makes you a risk.

pyre
If you're a valuable worker, then you are hard to replace. It would be in their best interests to make use of you while they have a chance to, rather than cast you aside over petty 'loyalty' BS.

The downsides of hiring someone new:

* It could take an indeterminate amount of time to find someone of a similar caliber (1 month? 3 months? 1 year?).

* It takes a certain amount of time to get comfortable with the internal codebase of a company, let alone the time that it takes to become proficient with it. This amount of time increases the larger the internal codebase and the older the company is.

* It takes time to 'bond' with the team and for the new social dynamic to become settled and understood by everyone.

* There is no guarantee that the new person that you hire will stick around either. You could spend a whole year looking for someone as skilled, just to have the person leave after 3 months before any of the growing pains associated with bringing on a new person are worked out. Then where are you? Back to square-one possibly spending another year looking for a similarly/equally skilled person.

You could side-step all of these issues by bringing this man/woman back on. If he/she leaves after another 3 months, who cares? He/she will be more productive during those 3 months than a new hire would be.

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lukatmyshu
Well ... did you want leave your company? If that's the case then going back seems like the wrong idea. If you're good, you can find a new job in this market in no time.
ahoyhere
Would you rather be temporarily embarrassed, or kicked out of the country? Pick your battles.
mikeryan
The key here is damages. ie. what have you lost. If you ask for your old job back and they don't offer it then you're in a stronger position to show damages. If they do offer it - well then you're in better shape then you are now.

Just another point in the "suck it up and ask for your old job back" camp.

anigbrowl
Sorry, no - his immigration situation is the priority, and if it turns out that he can collect damages (insufficient data to say), they would include the cost of the immigration lawyer.
retube
> Let your old company tell you you can't have your job back, don't make that decision for them.

This. If you were leaving on good terms, and were a valued member of the firm, there's absolutely no reason why they wouldn't take you back. In fact, they should be glad to keep you!

There's no shame in having wanted to try something new. People move shops all the time. So this time you got unlucky with the move, but no biggy. Just be upfront with your current employer and tell them what's happened.

fofofofo
Stick your tail between your legs and ask for your old job back. - Like the old man always says: "It's best not to burn bridges".
jamesbkel
Ask for the old job back... but explain the situation, it doesn't sound like there's any reason you need to 'stick your tail between your legs'.
jacquesm
That really really sucks. This happens, fortunately not frequently. I take it you have copies of all the documents and the preceding correspondence as well.

First order of battle is to be candid with your current employer to see if you can get your old job back, you may have to promise them not to leave within the next six months or so, conversely you can expect to be let go at any moment.

Think of it as a stopgap measure.

Next stop after that is the office of a lawyer specializing in HR affairs.

Don't worry too much about looking ridiculous, you would look a lot more ridiculous losing your dwelling or having no food on the table.

Pride is a virtue but fairly useless at this point in time.

mattew
People quit jobs all the time. For you, this is a big deal because you don't quit jobs all that often. I suggest that you explain to your employer what happened, and ask for your current job back. Chances are they will be happy to have you back.
jacquesm
For him it is a big deal because his residence status depends on his employment.
ajju
[Removed bad advice about portraying this as a change of mind rather than a rescinded job offer to his current employer]

Talk to the manager at your current company and tell him that you want your job back or at least a longer notice period. They probably won't mind having you around to do more knowledge transfer for a few more weeks and look for another job.

Meanwhile, consider what patio11 said. IANAL and employment offers often have a clause saying something about how they are non-binding etc, but I am not sure how enforceable those terms are. You may indeed have a case.

Separately, start applying for jobs elsewhere. RoR is a valuable skill and fresh from a successful (although unfortunate) interview, you are well placed to ace more interviews.

Good luck!

rue
Bad advice, no need to lie about the situation.
ajju
Upon reconsideration, yes this was bad advice. When I read he is on a "work visa" and in a bad situation due to job transfer problems, I automatically assumed he was dealing with the worst kind of employers waiting to exploit him. Clearly this is not the case most of the time.

So agreed, if he works for a good manager / employer, it is better to be forthright.

I rescind my advice.

abalashov
I strongly disagree.

Whether or not to actually go with this approach is up for debate, but the terms of his engagement with his new employer are not in any way, shape or form his old employer's business. There's a reason so many laws exist to protect the confidentiality of such information.

noahkagan
This happened to me at Google pre-ipo:( You are out of luck. In California job positions are at-will... I'd most likely go back to your old company, look for another one or just start a new company.

I know a few good Bay Area companies that are hiring if you are interested...

chegra
You mind sharing the details of your story?
fady
I agree with everyone here. Ask for you old job back, they should understand. If all works out, please blog about the experience in more detail...
rantfoil
Posterous is hiring, and we love Ruby on Rails. Let me know if you'd like to talk. Perhaps we can make lemonade from these lemons. http://posterous.com/jobs
wheaties
Now that is why I love HN, SO, and all these tech-nerd websites. Community.
joboffer
Sent you an email. Thanks for reaching out.
rantfoil
Awesome, we will be in touch!
dotBen
Posterous, Twitter and loads of others are great places to work.

Specific opportunities aside, I think the point made here (and elsewhere in this thread) is that there are plenty of RoR jobs in The Bay Area - and if you come out here and hang out you'll be in a job within 2 weeks.

I'm sure most of the bigger/funded startups would support the legal costs of a port on an H1b, if that is what you have.

If you go back to your old employer, which is an option, aside from the pride issue I think you would also out of professionalism owe them 3-6 months before you left again, so consider what you want to do carefully.

lippe_maia
One thing I would do is figure out whether they got some information about you that made them not want to bring you on or whether some disruptive event happened at the company. If there some information or misinformation out there that would cause someone to rescind a job offer, it's very important that you know about it.

Beyond that, it seems like you should find a job at another company or try to get your old job back. A lawsuit seems really complicated and unlikely to get much for you.

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dotBen
It's a nice idea and worth asking but many employers are loathed to give critical feedback these days for fear of being sued (and even more so if they rescinded the offer and so the individual might have a case for damages)
csomar
I know that you'll look ridiculous when you get back to your old job (if you did). But trust me, it's a lot better than staying JOBLESS especially in this economy.
jacquesm
Especially if it means being kicked out of the country. Being jobless is only a part of the problem here.
gerakinis
If you have the job offer back from them, with their signature on it as well your own, then I would also recommend outing the offending company... That is probably one bridge you can afford to burn - and current and future employees of the company all will probably see the information as valuable.

If you never got a signed copy of the job offer, then I would think your options are fairly limited.

Best of luck, either way.

esschul
So sorry to hear this. I don't know how the work situation is in the US, but here in Norway it's quite common to get positions, even the really good ones, thrown after you if you have the right resume.

Sit down and think what you want to do. If the position you were offered was the dream job; locate a similar company and send them your resume. Or even better, the best people is reading this very post. Put up a link to your resume right here, and see what'll happen. Couldn't hurt(?).

igrekel
How is your relationship with your former boss?

When I switched jobs, my boss left me on leave for two months in case I changed my mind.

chrisgoodrich
If you're good, I'm sure they'll take you back. The cost of hiring and ramping a new employee to replace you is much higher than the cost of bringing you back.
Be-The-Water
Is there another side to this story, why did you quit your job in the first place? Was the other job that much better?

I agree if it is a time constraint thing you have no choice in approaching your prior company. But if not I would keep looking for something that fills your need, like the Posterous post you will learn a lot more than just RoR.

Good Luck!

chegra
What I would like to know is what is the name of this company that would hire then rescind immediately.
Jeema3000
I agree with everyone else: try to get your old job back. If they're professionals (and you didn't burn any bridges), then they should realize that it was nothing personal when you looked for other employment.

True, they may question your loyalty in the future, but if they like you, then they will probably be relieved that you're staying. They might even try to address whatever it was that made you look elsewhere to begin with...

mattmanser
Name and shame the buggers.
mpk
As much as I share this sentiment, I'd advise against it.

They were very unprofessional and left you in the lurch, but that's not a reason for you to hit the blogs and start throwing mud.

In a few years this company may not even be around any more, but naming and shaming with posts and comments on the net will be around long after this is all a distant memory and that will reflect very badly on you wrt future employers.

jeffreyg
He can name them respectfully, maybe just in this post. Respectfully is key, and any potential future employer should understand this.
kls
I see it differently, personally my allegiance lies with other developers, it is why I was respected even when I was in executive management. Personally, I would feel that it is my responsibility to not let this happen to other developers. Further it is not his responsibility to hid the actions of the wrong. They where in the wrong not him, he should not have to protect their reputation for fear of reprisal by some future employer. I would hire him if he named the name of the company because it is not his duty to protect and cover up their actions.

This is certainly a different case than airing a companies dirty laundry and creating a whinny bitch fest just because you are unhappy with a company for log hours, mismanagement or something similar. In this case a company showed a clear disregard for their actions.

Further outing the company would make this post real in my mind. Color me skeptical, but we all know that there is a lot of back room crap that goes on with getting low wage immigrants in to fill positions. They go to great lengths to do so. It would not at all surprise me if they are AstroTurf'ing boards to scare existing visa holders into "staying put" (HN would be a good place with our visa holder community). I would not put it past them and this is just the kind of post that would do so. So with some real facts the story becomes more credible until then I will remain at least partially skeptical.

tswicegood
Naming the company is different than badmouthing the company. It's not like they wouldn't have the opportunity to respond here as well if they felt they weren't getting a fair shake.
Andys
Agreed! I think this is one of the worst things a company can do. They shouldn't be able to do it without harming their reputation.
tdfx
You really need to out the company that did this. If not for revenge, do it so that they can't screw anyone else over in a similar situation.
jacquesm
No, sorry he should not do that. His situation is precarious enough as it is, he should play his cards very carefully and not do anything rash or out of revenge.
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[dead] abalashov
Yes, he should, after he sorts out his more immediate dilemma.
joboffer
I don't want to out the company publicly. I'd rather not burn bridges. I just don't want to get into any more mess than has already been created.
onan_barbarian
Cultivating a thicker skin would be wise. Would you leave the US because you're embarrassed to go back to your old job?

Possibly if you're at a large enough company, you might be able to split the difference and find a job at another team within the same company...

b0o
If possible, could you post the name of the company that "hired" you, maybe let others know so they'll think twice before joining that company?

Hopefully your old company will take you back!

yoak
I've been a hiring manager for hundreds of programmers over the years at several companies. With the exception of maybe one or two people I was preparing to get rid of anyway, if any one of the people who quit came back during their notice period with this story I would insist that they stay and fight fiercely with any other forces in the company that might resist it. It also wouldn't lower my esteem for the person. I'd be happy that he or she felt that he or she could come back. I have been happy when they've come back. It's never been as soon as this, but I've had people leave to try startups or other jobs and had them not work out. The good ones leave to try things sometimes. I'm happy to be good enough that when it sometimes doesn't work out, even though it is a time to consider many options, they elect to come back.
ciupicri
I think that it also depends on what terms people are leaving. It's one thing to say you're leaving because you're starting a company and another thing because you're sick of writing mundane database/web applications, using Waterfall instead of Agile etc. or even worse because almost everything is a mess.
yoak
It's certainly the case that if they're leaving because they're unhappy that something is true and it is still going to be true when they consider returning it would give me pause. :-)

Even then, it might be possible to convince me if they come back with a reason they were wrong and think the thing is good (e.g. I tried Agile and discovered it isn't better, and my actual problem was this...) rather than just, "I decided to put up with it here..."

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ashitvora
I know it is ridiculous but with your immigration status at stake, don't think of all these. Just go and talk to your current boss.

Also, once you get your job back, send http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:yR0N5a0R8puacM:http://www... to the company who retracted the offer.

jacquesm
> send http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:yR0N5a0R8puacM:http://www.... to the company who retracted the offer.

That would be extremely unwise. If there is one take home lesson from all of this, it is that you NEVER burn your bridges, no matter what.

It's a small world, and you just might have to rely on that person you gave the finger last week tomorrow.

Spectacularly bad advice this.

mattsoldo
The startup has committed what is known legally as "Promissory estoppel", basically a broken promise. In general they are liable for any reasonable expenses that you have incurred with the assumption that they would keep the promise. If for example you had already moved to the bay area, you could file a lawsuit to recover the cost of the move and the cost of moving back.

If you do want to get any monetary compensation from the company, I would suggest bypassing the recruiter and speaking with a founder or executive at the company directly. Hopefully they will be motivated to do the "right thing", and they will certainly have an interest in preserving their reputation.

abalashov
Good faith is usually an adequate defense to that, otherwise changing circumstances of any kind, in any situation would turn into legal liabilities universally, which is clearly untenable.