Ask HN: I started a company in Japan but I'm in over my head
A bit of background: I've been in Japan since 2011, doing a mix of programming, studying and English teaching. I've never managed to keep a programming job longer than 6 months, so realistically I was mostly supported by English teaching.
I like living in Japan but I haven't been able to progress my career much. I thought maybe I would have better luck starting my own company so I paid an judicial scrivener to incorporate a company and I invested all my savings into it. Another reason for starting the company was to allow me to extend my visa.
Well, after starting the company at the start of this year I realise I was hopelessly naive. I haven't really managed to do anything (the same problem I had when I was working for other companies). I've only really managed to use my bank account recently. I've got lots of forms and paperwork that I'm supposed to file but I don't really know what its for or how to fill it in. I've very much in over my head.
I haven't managed to release any software or do any consulting.
What is my next step? I have honestly thought about suicide, or just fleeing the country. But I want to do the right thing, I don't want my actions to reflect badly on other foreigners in Japan.
Does anyone have any advice about what to do next, or how to avoid getting into scrapes like this in the future?
166 comments
[ 0.25 ms ] story [ 188 ms ] threadIf you cannot operate a business, then you can have accountants wind down the operations of the current business. This will not reflect particularly poorly on you, especially to the extent that the business was more a paper entity than something with material operations. (Failure at running a business is not exactly prized in Japan; infelicitous choices in paperwork can be taken care of.)
I would be happy to give you the name of an English-speaking accountancy in Tokyo that can help you with either of the above. Please feel free to send me an email; my address is in my profile.
You should probably speak to a mental health professional. I don't have a great recommendation for one here; consider asking your friends or, in extremis, your local city hall for a referral to an English-speaking one. If the health-oriented parts of city hall don't have a ready answer the internationalization-oriented part (hopefully) does; this is a Top 10 ask for them.
Also is 50k the cost of incorporation or the capital required to incorporate in Japan? If so, if he/she dissolves the company can she get some of that back?
To the original poster, I wish you all the best, sincerely, you can get through this, and like others have said you can make back the 50k, try not to worry about that, that only pays for a couple of years of private school for a little kid where I live.
It is not particularly expensive to incorporate a company in Japan and, while capital requirements were once in the $30k range, they're functionally $0 now. I will not speculate as to the original poster's financial circumstances.
To save other folks the trouble, Google Translate says this translates to: "Ltd.".
Added: There is a separate classification which is virtually identical to U.S. LLCs (because it was modeled after them), called 合同会社.
Perhaps you could remain in business and assist foreigners with setting up Japanese companies.
Someone with an empty shell business, limited or no Japanese skill and no Japanese cofounder is precisely the last person I would ask advice to set up my company there.
I've had multiple business coaches and personal advisors as well, and across the board, all of them would tell me that you need to have a full and complete plan before even starting out creating a business.
I did it by the seat of my pants and paid dearly through some near disasters. But I never had 50k invested up front. If you had a viable plan to make this work, you just need to work your plan. If you don't, you should seriously consider pulling out as much money as you can and take this experience as a solid life lesson.
Those that won't quit don't really talk like you are right now in your original posting. My sense is that you have skills, talent in other areas and were trying to get happiness through an area of life you don't excel at.
I hope you figure this all out, all the best to you.
I read in some of your past posts about how your accountant needs to fit your business. I think I made a bad choice of accountants. He works very much on paper and can't understand why I'm not going to visit clients etc. I very much feel like we're talking at cross purposes.
I've been going to counseling and I found it very helpful. I started going when I couldn't handle my past job. They gave me the advice that maybe I was more suited to working for myself than working for a company. I usually feel very good after visiting them but it quickly wears off.
How about this idea: maybe there are some action items there for this accountant?
My accountant is ~$200/month + ~$1k for special end-of-year reporting/filing and ~$1k for beginning of year (~April in japan) reporting/filing. I spend none of my time thinking about anything other than the bank balance and we meet whenever to discuss what the business can/should be doing.
Unfortunately, I can't 100% verify that what my accountant does is the highest quality accounting there is, since I'm not an accountant, but I haven't gotten even a whiff of impropriety. No angry letters from the city office or anything either.
In my experience, it takes 2 to 3 years for a new online business to start to have stable income, you will get there, just never stop fighting and do not give up. Find a partner to support you in life, find network circles for friendship and business.
Being away from home is tough, we all been there. Making a step back is also not something bad.
Given your mental health issues, it may be best for you to pack up go somewhere with more social support. That might mean staying in Japan but working a regular job. Don't worry about your reflection on foreigners in Japan. In fact, handling mental health issues responsibly is something that Japan needs to do a lot more of.
$50k USD is not a lot of money. You can save that within a few years in many countries.
The brightside is you haven't went into debt. That would make the situation infinitely worse. Unfortunately, your runway has run out so you have to return to a regular job like a regular person.
I think we've hit peak HN.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RLLMUK
https://www.rllmukforum.com/
Seems to focus mostly on video games. Was started in 2003. Clearly has its own unique culture.
There are people with $30K salaries with credit card debts larger than this...
As in terms of career wise I dont think a failed business is such a problem - as long as you can sell it in a positive light. Career wise being an English teacher is the bigger problem I think. Many People that I know from Asia - foreigners and natives - look down on these so called "white monkey jobs".
Also its strange that you use "suicide" and "my actions to reflect badly on other foreigners in Japan" in the same paragraph. If you are depressed you shouldn't care how other foreigners look by your actions.
There is no "should" with depression and mental illness. You could well say 'you "should" feel better because it's just chemicals in your brain and what you are feeling isn't really real', right? But depression comes in all shapes and sizes and doesn't make rational sense, which is why it can't be treated that way.
My point is that he shouldn't let hypotheticals like that keep him from doing what is best for him, especially if suicide is in the cards.
When I write my resume I just don't write the months on so it appears I was working at the companies for 1 year instead of 2-6 months. That way I can claim I wasn't an English teacher.
1. Why are you in Japan? Is it a good place for you?
2. Why have you not been able to hold a programming job?
3. Why have you found it difficult "to do anything" with this or while with other companies?
4. Why are you concerned with what the Japanese people will think of other foreigners in relation to your actions?
5. How much of your savings can you recover from the company?
You seem like quite a self-aware person and yet your question lacks many of the contextual elements other people would need to help you. I think you need to talk this over with someone in person - probably someone with experience.
It comes down to wanting to be accepted, without needing to constantly be vouched for. when you know the default view of you is negative you want to improve it not only for yourself but your community, especially if the acceptance will lead to a noticeable higher quality life for everyone.
2/3. I've had three so far. The first one was a startup (I was an employee) that ran out of money. The second I spent 6 months working there but I couldn't concentrate on the work and couldn't produce anything. I don't think I committed any lines of code in 6 months. I was ashamed of my performance and quit right after renewing my visa. The third job I was there for 2 months. I felt even more pressure after doing poorly at the previous job. I felt so confused even when just setting up the environment. I barely managed to do anything in 2 months and used to just hide in the toilets sobbing. I felt ashamed and couldn't handle it anymore so I quit.
4. Foreigners have lots of trouble getting apartments etc in Japan. If I just pack a suitcase and get on a plane leaving everything here in the lurch I'd feel bad because it has effects on other people.
5. Maybe 40k?
If I were you I'd get my money out and take an extended trip home (if that is possible for you). You're worrying about other people at a time when you need more care than they do - after all "they" are a pure abstraction let's face it.
To put it simply: Put on your own oxygen mask first.
Sounds like you're still relatively young, go out on a new adventure. Don't be constraint in one place, you can always go back to Japan someday.
This should take care of freeing up your time for actual work, but it's up to you to fight your procrastination.
A company is just an entity that allows you to pay less taxes overall.
Don't worry for not having been able to start much.
Regarding all the paperwork, go to the tax office (or the relevant offices) and ask them for help. They are always willing to help. Be honest and sincere and they'll sometimes fill the stuff in your place if necessary.
One thing you can do is shift your English teaching activity to the company. That's good for your taxes.
Do not hire an accountant for anything right now. You'll lose money.
I've lived here for 22 years, had my company for 12, I'm not doing anything magic with it but it pays the bills.
Send me a mail if you want.
I had to move back home and spend a lot of time with my family to be reminded that I am much more than a gaijin in Japanese society. I've been out of Japan for three years and I still think about it every day.
You may already be cognizant of this, but I wasn't, I didn't realize how it was affecting me. Do you have family or friends back home that you can talk to about your troubles? This isn't financial or business advice, this is personal advice. I know you're protecting your 建て前 but you should consider that it's just a construct, it doesn't define you, and it's not worth killing yourself over.
I recognize that it could potentially have negative effects on one overtime, but I see this as a fair trade off for the abundant safety and civility in Japan.
That said, a lot of people go through this when they're new to Japan. People are so unusually polite/friendly that it makes you self-conscious of your own habits. Eventually you become more familiar with what you're seeing, and you're able to relax and be yourself. I think it took me about six months to stop worrying about offending people -- perhaps not coincidentally, this is when it became easier to make Japanese friends.
(Also, it's essential in order to learn the language. You have to be willing to barge ahead with communication, regardless of politeness. This is still a challenge for me.)
I have always felt uncomfortable with the concept of "inside face and outside face". It comes off as disingenuous and dishonest.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae
I am pretty sure that's not because I am such a smile-inducing person. Rather the position requires it.
Is that disingenuous and dishonest, or simply a social convention that people adhere too without overthinking it?
"Hey it was really nice seeing you! We should totally catch up some time." ~American Tatemae
Or is the unsubtle expression of the concept uncomfortable?
Americans do the same thing; you can see this in the casual talk Americans also have with cashiers or wait staff. Just because you're friendly and chatting doesn't mean you actually want to be friends and go out and do something together.
The Culture Map by Erin Meyer expresses this idea as a spectrum from a peach to a coconut: on the one end, you get a soft exterior with a hard interior; on the other, a hard interior with a soft exterior. The point though, is that everyone does this -- just in a different way.
I've known some Japanese people who've gone to the US, been confronted with the super friendly casual American attitude, then been horribly offended when it turned out that that friendliness wasn't "real." Part of this is the stereotype that Americans are "honest and direct," and part of this is that Americans tend toward the peach end of the spectrum, while Japanese people tend toward the coconut end.
As if 50K is too much money to be able to have?
Japan can be very tough for founders (I founded and ran a business for 14 years there -- see bio). I was lucky that I had a co-founder, and I would urge you to find someone with whom you can work with, to share the load, to cover the tasks that you can't do, and to make the experience that much less lonely.
I wouldn't worry about what others might think of fleeing the country. Once you are away from Japan, no-one will care but you. So again, you need to ensure your own mental health whatever happens.
While I am no longer in Japan feel free to get me on Skype for a chat anytime (ID:sparkzilla).
[1]https://telljp.com/ Tel: 03-5774-0992
https://telljp.com/
It's written in the post: a kabushiki-gaisha.
Years later I have a solid business, a work routine and can actually focus on holding projects and things without having allergic reactions to run after the next squirrel - and without abandoning something I have a sudden averse reaction to.
The Psychiatrist at first thought it was due to a "lack of discipline" until I explained to him that I locked myself in for 2-3 months to work on my own projects, just to clean up the whole house and do everything else, instead of the projects I wanted/needed to work on.
The only thing you need to research is which medicine you can be prescribed, as some of them are not allowed in Japan. But enough foreigners went through this process, so there should be a fair amount of online literature to guide you through this https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/3s86ur/psa_getti...
Of course this is only in case you feel like you have these symptoms, and that they've led you to where you are now. It's a common occurrence with entrepreneurs.
It seems that your intention was to use your investment as motivation to further your career, i.e. "Once I own a company I will get awesome stuff done".
I recognize the line of thinking (from being there!). It is not "hopelessly naive" it's more of a bias, the other side of the sunken costs fallacy. "If I invest in this I will find the motivation to perform". Same principle for paying an annual lump sum to the gym and then never attending.
Though it seems the lesson is "never use fear of loss as a motivator", fear of loss is simply a variable in a complex formula. You can't rely entirely on it to get things done.
がんばってね！
Businesses come and go and they are not more important than your life. And money is not more important than your life.
First, you should congratulate yourself on taking such an impressive personal risk by moving to a vibrant, different place -- you sound like a very interesting person. Be glad that you are experimenting in life because that's all we really get during our time here -- a chance to try new things. Many people never find the courage to do that, and those who do quickly learn what you have learned, that experiences are unpredictable when you stray from the norm. This is a good thing and it means you are putting yourself out there in the universe to see what is on offer. Now it's time to deal with the next step.
I feel your pain. I know exactly what it is like to feel backed into a corner when the short-term view is a combination of stressful and terrifying.
But it's only the short-term view. When I look back on those moments in my own past, the details are long forgotten, the misery is remembered and I remain glad it is in the past.
Wise man once said: This too, shall pass. And it will. I promise you that. Get through the darkness, there is light on the other side -- guaranteed.
What you need to do is minimize the stress in your life and take responsibilities off your plate -- starting with the business, the work, the overall lifestyle, all of it needs to be reduced or minimized or removed entirely for awhile.
Put yourself in a position where you can do nearly nothing for awhile, except reflect, get some positive interactions with whoever you are close to in your life, whether it is friends or family (or no one, if you are truly comfortable being alone), and don't ask anything of yourself except to take a life pause with no other demands.
During that downtime, give yourself permission to do nothing, to explore your creativity and interests with no pressure to make anything come from them. In the absence of pressure, life has a way of illuminating the real goals.
Japan is always going to be there. You will enjoy it more and perhaps even prosper well if you first learn to relax and enjoy life again without so much pressure.
It's fine if you end up losing a little money to close the business, and maybe even leave Japan for awhile. It can be very stressful to live abroad, and Japan is arguably one of the most challenging because of how different the culture is (assuming you are coming from somewhere in the West).
I have lived all over the world and done so without much money, and it has not always been easy. Feel free to contact me if you need someone to talk to.
First, it sounds like you've got unsolved personal issues that are going to prevent this from working. Taking good care of your mental health is key to making any business work. Getting off the ground is a marathon, not a sprint, and you need a certain amount of mental stability and long term thinking to ride out the highs and lows that are part of the process.
Second, I'm not sure of your familiarity with Japanese culture or language, but if Japan is quite foreign to you, I'd have thought that's making things much harder.
Last, unless you can afford to and are willing lose all the money, don't mix up your personal wealth in business ventures. It's much better to bootstrap and be learn to be profitable right from the off with tiny amounts of money than lose your life savings because you've no idea what you're doing. Keep your money and the business' money separate and grow slowly.
As far as future advice goes, I think you likely invested too much money up front. It sounds like you may be short on cash. I would have likely started the company somewhere cheaper than Japan (or just not as a KK which is an expensive option). For example, Estonia is pretty cheap (about 200USD, then 60USD a month for banking/accounting). I’d have found another way to keep your Japanese VISA going. Either some kind of student visa (Japanese study) or another option... Japan is much less strict than other countries and I know people who have stayed (traveling outside the country every 6 to 9 months to reset the visa) on short term visas for years.
As far as what to do now, it’s hard to offer good advice. You seem to have 3 options for the KK: keep it going, shut it down, or ignore it. If money is an issue, I’d be tempted to do whatever is cheapest.
I would then probably keep at the English teaching until your situation has stabilized if you can stand it.
After a while I’d slowly (and cheaply) try to bootstrap something, if that’s what interests you.
There used to be Yugen (limited responsibility) with a minimum capital of ¥3 million but it disappeared with the new KK law.
That was about 12 years ago.
I’d still just be tempted to set something up in another country and operate via that until things started to pan out.
I've seen this same pattern in the software industry repeat itself many times, at all levels. People are not hitting the level of success they want, and think that doing their own company will solve all the problems. But it doesn't. As you have found, the reasons your career stagnates will normally also cause struggles when you are the boss. Instead, I recommend that you first learn to be productive in any environment, for any boss. Then you need to start finding better bosses and environments. And finally decide if you, personally, are the best boss for yourself. This is a process that take time, effort, and lots of honest self-evaluation. But you'll be a more successful and happier person for it.
I don't know your details, but it sounds like your next step on that path would be to get somewhere that you are comfortable and happy outside of work, so you have more energy to reflect on why you struggle at work. Find a mentor/coach to help you figure out why you are not productive, and fix those problems. Once those are fixed, you will have the chance to choose your next move from a place of productivity and positivity, not desperation.
You arent a failure, and we all enjoy having you on this earth. No matter what you decide to do with your business, please consider staying here with us.
Go to the beach. Eat some good food. Take a hot shower and go on a date with someone who is down to earth.
Even if everything all goes to shit and you are flat broke, you can still live an awesome life, especially abroad.
You took some risks. Seek outside professional help and advice. Hire an intern.
Good luck, i believe in you!
I don't know if you believe me, but I genuinely enjoy this person's presence. Seriously. He is providing interesting information, and he is a talented programmer. We are all in this boat together.
I believe that all humans have the capacity to be awesome to each other. I believe he needed to hear that we want him on this earth, even if we don't know him in person.
Where do you get this from? As far as I could tell from their comments here, the OP is emphatically not a talented programmer?
I care that this guy exists. Even in his darkest hours, I want him to continue living. This trouble he's going through will pass. He is still a healthy human being, whether or not his business fails.
There is so much stuff left for him to experience in his life. Empathetic humans like myself must remind him that even if he loses all his money, he can always rebuild.
I'm glad you're here to be a kind and compassionate voice.
I remember back when the banks made loans to businesses, and the business owner was really only responsible for daily operations. It was the bank's money to lose. If the business didn't work out, it was the bank's loss, not really the CEO's.
Now the risk is all on the founder. It is a digital gold rush where the founder must provide their own shovel and pan, and if they don't find gold quickly enough, then they'll starve.
It doesn't need to be like this. You can walk away from the gold mine.
From what the OP has said, it would seem that in their current state they are not capable of working as a programmer right now. I would recommend getting help for the depression and anxiety first, and then working on software engineering skills until they are more confident and capable. The 50K USD should allow them some leeway to do this without needing to find work immediately, which will help.
Good luck.