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Ask HN: Is humanity going towards vegetarianism?

18 points by ainiriand ↗ HN
From a neutral observer point of view it would look like there are more and more vegetarians and vegetarian food in the supermarkets. Certainly this is true only for a small subset of the western world. Why do you think is this happening?

39 comments

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onion2k
Meat is much more expensive than vegetables. Wage stagnation and increased housing costs mean people don't buy meat as much.
justaguyhere
In NYC for example, fruits are quite expensive - watermelons, mangoes etc. You could get some veggies like cabbage for cheap, but others like cucumbers are expensive. You could get cheap chicken, yes.

So it is more nuanced than that - the generic statement of meat being expensive than veggies (or vice versa) isn't true everywhere. It would be nice if veggies are consistently cheaper than meat though - everyone wins.

ainiriand
It is more expensive because in those areas is linked with better lifestiles attached to people with more money. Here in Dublin the cost of vegetables is ridiculous because there is a very strong meat culture.
dagw
Meat is much more expensive than vegetables.

Perhaps in aggregate, but there are a lot of vegetables that cost a lot more than a lot of meat.

Locally raised steak is more expensive than potatoes. Imported low quality pork is a lot cheaper than locally grown asparagus.

kbyatnal
It's worth pointing out that in most cases, the only reason why meat can be cheaper than vegetables is massive government subsidies.
HeyLaughingBoy
Likewise, the quality of the produce varies quite a lot. It wasn't until I started growing my own cucumbers and I noticed that they stayed fresh a lot longer than the store bought variety that I realized that a cucumber I bought in the store was probably already at least a month old.

There's not much that costs less than potatoes, though. They are so cheap, it amazes me that farmers can make money on them.

nabla9
* It's not a necessity in a modern world. You can just choose to receive as good proteins other ways.

* Carbon footprint of the animal products is significant. It's roughly equal to cars.

* Question about animal suffering and treatment in when eating mass produced meat. Cheap meat comes from mistreating animals. Equating human cognition with the consciousness that is able to suffer does not seem like solid argument. There is 'naturalness' argument but it's not solid moral argument.

* Meat versus 'meat'. On the other hand it's ecologically good to eat highly processed meat (as much of the animal is used as possible) including pink slime, sinew and chicken skin that most people eat as meat, but on the other had it's not exactly meat.

* Proud carnivores realize that they are actually scavengers at the meat market. Hunters and fishers may reduce their meat eating because they prefer to actually eat things they catch themselves. There is no social status in eating meat as it used to be.

hackerman12345
Emissions footprint is being improved every day - you might remember an article from a month ago discussing that giving seaweed to cows reduces their emissions by a huge amount.

If everyone went veg, we would need more farms right? How many more field mice/rabbits/snakes/whatever will suffer/get squashed from this? Is this number comparable to the amount of cows that suffer for steak? It seems like smaller creatures treatment never get considered.

oldcynic
> If everyone went veg, we would need more farms right?

Fewer, or have some spare to cater for growing population. Farmers currently growing grain for animal feed could grow other things instead. Veg perhaps?

hackerman12345
Right, but also instead of a pasture for cows to run around and eat, you get a field with increases the amount of suffering of the little field mice and bunnies.
ainiriand
How much food do you think a cow eats? How much fertile soil is dedicated to grow food for livestock instead of human food? Is it safe to say that a cow eats about 50kg per day? How much do you eat in a week? These are the things that you should be asking to yourself.
hackerman12345
Everyone prefers grass fed cows anyway, right?
ainiriand
So 50kg of grass. That is quite a decent amount of land to cover per day man.
hackerman12345
My point is that cows don't smash the field mice all day long.
ergothus
I was shocked to learn a few years ago that the percentage of US grown corn for human consumption is so low that it is basically an afterthought in the farming industry.

That doesn't mean that switching g to 100% vegetarian would have no impact, but does mean that the actual farming area is already sufficient for humans.

toomuchtodo
Sometimes I wonder what we’re going to do with all that farmland when ethanol and industrial livestock isn’t a thing anymore.
erikpukinskis
I can use it. We can turn it into food forests for a back-to-the-land lifestyle product. Also carbon sequester.

Basically: turn it back to forests and make it easy for people fleeing dying cities to move there (in the 2040s)

ianleeclark
> If everyone went veg, we would need more farms right?

No, cows eat too. Think about it this way: to get 1000 calories worth of energy from a cow, that cow has to consume more than 1000 calories due to maintenance (BMR) alone. Moreover, one acre of land producing soybeans, rice, or legumes much more protein and much more calories per year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_protein_per_unit_area_o...

> How many more field mice/rabbits/snakes/whatever will suffer/get squashed from this?

Fewer as shown from the previous point proving that we could feed more people on less acreage of land

> Is this number comparable to the amount of cows that suffer for steak?

No, it's smaller and we get to cut out the cool parts like raping cows to produce milk and then ripping their children away from them.

hackerman12345
According to: https://www.nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/sp/sp_ne153.pdf

it is not smaller. 12 mice per acre average. That's a lot more animal lives being ruined per acre IMO - and that's just the mice.

If you want to convince people of your cause, you need to be willing to be honest about the pros and cons instead of going for an emotional argument.

ianleeclark
It's not an emotional argument, if a vegan diet requires 1/10th of the acreage, then it requires 12 dead mice as opposed to the 120 dead mice + _whatever animals you're eating_ of the meat-eating diet.

A meat eating diet inherently requires more acreage due to thermodynamics. It works like this: 20 acres of grain feeds 10 cows which feeds 1 person for a year, therefore 240 dead mice and 10 dead cows. An omnivore's diet inherently requires more acreage, therefore more dead mice and all the cows, chicken, fish, &c. you're eating.

hackerman12345
I think the mice can usually run out of a way of a cow slowly grazing along pasture.
ianleeclark
it's not just cows grazing on grass--78% of cows in the us are factory farmed, and 97% are grain fed which means they're force fed cheap grain to fatten them up for slaughter. Moreover, only 3% of cattle can be considered grass fed, and, for those cattle, we're deforesting the amazon rainforest--so probably more than your 12 mice.

If you want to throw global warming on top of it, your lifestyle will contribute to the mass Exodus (and most likely death) of millions to billions from the global south.

It's kinda ironic you said I'm arguing from emotion, but all it took for you to be complicit in rape, torture, and slaughter is a smiling cow on the side of a fucking cheese package.

hackerman12345
Wait until you read about how animals treat each other, and you'll pretty much think we are angels (obviously factory farms and what not are bad).

And before you say "yea but I choose to not contribute to their suffering", well what does that matter? You're still standing by while innocent creatures have all those things done to them by other creatures.

Aren't they entitled to not be tortured and slaughtered as well? Or does it just not matter if you're not the one doing it?

thorin
I'd say you are wrong. Where are you looking? For instance in India a lot of people mainly eat vegetarian, but that has always been the case. In the west outside of the well off left wing most people eat more meat than ever. Look at fast food and cheap restaurants which most (esp poorer people) aspire to eat. Breakfasts are often meat heavy and McDonald's, KFC, etc etc are mainly churning out cheap low quality meat products. Personally, it's the more well off and better educated people I know who are reducing the meat in their diet and thinking about food sourcing.
ainiriand
Well, maybe I'm wrong but the trend is there and if the low end restaurants have vegetarian options now that certainly mean something.
yoz-y
I think human society tend to get more tolerant over time (at a large scale). Recent and not so recent events such as acceptance of marriage for everyone, fight for gender equality and so on. Clearly there is a long way to go but eventually, when human problems are resolved people will probably turn their focus on animals as well.

The process is slow and may take centuries but I think we'll get there.

thiago_fm
I'm vegetarian, I've turned a few years ago, when I've moved to Berlin, a city with a lot of vegetarian options everywhere, also full of vegetarians(and vegans).

Before, I lived in a third world country called Brazil. There, it's mandatory you eat meat. And it's very very tasty. I used to eat A LOT of meat there.

In Germany(Berlin), meat is very expensive. Well, at least good meat, like I used to. If I wanted to eat the same amount of meat, I probably would spend thousand of euros a month to eat the same quality/kind of meat.

So we started to eat tofu and vegetarian food and discovered it is tasty as well, but then you need to add some nice sauce and cook it well, instead of just frying some meat.

I think factors like the one I've mentioned could be a reason. A city with a lot of vegetarian restaurants, will make you eventually go into one of them and see the food is tasty, then you start to play with the idea, then you change and see no difference... apart that you don't eat animals anymore.

gaspoweredcat
im vegetarian, but not by choice, i cant say i advocate it nor can i see why people would willingly restrict their diet so much
bsvalley
I think businesses adapt to the demand and a lot of people get influenced by a bunch of various diets these days. Migration of people around the world (different cultures) and the fact that we have access to more data (Internet, etc.), probably explain why this is happening.
ainiriand
Do you think that people that become vegetarians in their lives plus the ones born in vegetarian families are gonna be more people combined than meat eaters eventually?
bsvalley
I believe so, the number of vegetarians will certainly increase in the future due to the awareness. Though, might no be true that the whole world will turn vegeterian in thousands or millions of years from now. Unless meat disappears.
ainiriand
I think the same. I ate meat for for 33 years but I changed so I think that if the change is there maybe the humanity is gonna move that direction.
superasn
I can't speak for others but yes personally I've started reducing meat and added veg.

I think my shift came after reading "How not to die"[1]. This book has a lot of scientific info about the benefits of veg diet over non veg and it really changed my perception of food and nutrition and the effect of all dieseases being caused by bad food choices.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=How+not+to+die&oq=How+not+to...

apohn
At least in North America, one thing I have seen is an increasing number of restaurants that have a vegetarian option that is decent. In the past it was always just a regular meat dish minus the meat, but it costs the same. Or worse, take a dish that gets most of it's flavor from the meat and then substitute tofu or some basic (e.g. carrots/potatoes) boiled/steamed vegetables, making a dish that is extremely bland. It's not a surprise that lots of people cannot even fathom how anybody could be vegetarian.

It seems to me that thanks to immigrants, fusion food, and cuisine from countries like India, people are starting to realize that you can add spices and flavors to any cuisine and make these dishes tasty without meat. In this way you have dishes that everybody can eat without feeling like the vegetarian options at restaurants are horrible. Instead, they can see something on a menu that actually looks appetizing and be willing to try it. There are more choices than just a meat-substitute.

Note that I'm referring at non-chain restaurants in more populated areas, or newer or smaller-chains. The large chains still think a baked potato with cheese is a vegetarian entree.

I also think that a lot of times vegetarian/vegan American food has been synonymous with things like raw, super-healthy, vegetable smoothies, etc. So it's bland and basically only for people who specifically want that kind of food. Even that changing, and you can find 100% vegetarian restaurants with food that is fried, has salt/sugar/spices, and is just generally super tasty while not being that healthy. Basically, the reason why I like to eat out in the first place :)

40acres
I don't think so. In the western world I wouldn't be shocked if the numbers have crept up in the past few decades and will continue to do so -- but there are billions of people in the non western world and others who just prefer meat. Meat is obviously a huge part of food culture and I don't see that changing drastically soon.
socrates1998
No, not really. I think more people see the value in not eating meat every day, which I think is a good thing, both for your health and the environment.

Going completely away from meat for the long term, isn't ideal for your health (for most people) and so I don't think it's going to become very popular.

This along with meat being such a big part of culture on top of the health component means meat will stay around for the forseeable future.

ergothus
I've been a vegetarian for a bit over a decade. (Ovo-lacto, not pescatarian, so I'll eat dairy and eggs but not fish) insects are undecided, but I try to avoid foods that would force a decision (good bye, junior mints). I try to pay attention to labels, but when eating out will often go for the basics. (If they offer a veggie burger, I won't try to find out if the cheese used animal-rennet, and I'm sure there has been lots of sugar bleached with animal bones)

I think I'm a decent example as I loved the taste of meats and wasn't (and still am not) into many veggies outside of basic staples. A kale and quinoa sandwich with sprouts and bell peppers with fresh tomato sounds like a wonderful thing...for some other than me to eat. My family has lots of fishermen and hunters, so meat was an unquestioned norm while growing up.

For me the cause was empathy...if I couldn't kill the animal because of emotions, why is it okay to make others do it? The various other logics of sustainability didn't hurt, but that was the deciding issue. I think that will resonate with people in the future who do switch, but I dont think it will particularly convince anyone TO switch.

I tried cold-turkey (awkward word choice) but found I was seeing stars constantly after a few months. (My guess is that my college go-to's of ramen and mac and cheese weren't a full nutritional load) After that I returned to meat eating, but I had lost the taste for red meat - it now just tasted oily and gross. After a few years I noticed that my tastes had slightly expanded (salad bars were still full of things I disliked, but lettuce itself was now okay). I started dropping a meat category each year (pork, turkey, chicken, seafood) to allow me time to find the right substitutes. I completed the list 10+ years ago and I've not had particular troubles, though I use a lot of meat substitutes while cooking.

Eating out and shopping have become easier over time, but only gradually - finding a vegetarian meal that doesn't assume you want ALL THE VEGETABLES is hard at the average place, and people dont all define vegetarian the same way (Indians seem to share my norm, but Chinese and Japanese use oyster and fish sauces in the "vegetarian" foods all the time, Thai is a toss up on that, plus it is hard to know if their curry paste is shrimp based, and Americans often seem to think every vegetarian eats fish, particularly in some regions. Plus the US south uses pork as a seasoning - a good portion of the vegetable sides menu at, say, Cracker Barrel is non vegetarian.

So while I think vegetarian will become the norm...I dont think it is on the cusp of being the norm. Plus vat-grown meat could totally change the equation, though it still has a long way to go. For now though, the gradual increase I've seen since the 80s has continued, and meat eaters vilify it less often because more of us are vegetarian WITHOUT trying to shame/blame other people for their choices/scenarios.

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