Ask HN: Is it ever okay for a physically healthy person to self terminate?
Strictly on the merit of having final say over one’s existence (presuming no appeal to religious authority), if someone can be selfish enough to consider their own needs above hurting others, shouldn’t anyone be allowed to self terminate?
Seems we allow this now; if someone is truly intent they will find a way.
43 comments
[ 3.6 ms ] story [ 99.7 ms ] threadI'm no psychologist, but would anyone who -wants- to self-terminate be considered a "healthy person"? Legitimate question -- I can't imagine someone who is in good health, has good relationships, and has a good possible "life trajectory" to want to self-terminate.
> Seems we allow this now; if someone is truly intent they will find a way.
I disagree that we "allow this", because it's almost impossible to stop it completely (by force & legislation, ignoring the effects of education & awareness).
It is illegal to do it to yourself (for insurance reasons, I believe), and it's illegal to assist someone else.
Again, I have no background knowledge here. Would be interesting to see some different perspectives.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/76qp85...
There's a huge difference between the damage of divorce vs. the damage of death.
It doesn't sound like you're interested in what this person wants or needs at all. You're just interested in what they can offer you while they're alive.
I'm only suggesting that the right to divorce is nothing like the right to death and isn't a useful analogy. The circumstances and considerations are radically different.
I have Type 1 diabetes and do well managing it. I run long distances and if you saw me you’d think I was a normal athletic and fairly fit person. So technically I’m currently healthy but longterm who knows.
But even before I was diagnosed (early 30s) I was sick of being alive. I was never drawn to having children, hate working, and don’t make that much money.
If I had the option of never waking up again, I’d take it. Probably take a little time to blow my savings first, but I don’t have much to look forward to.
It sounds like you might be in a bad place mentally. I'm sure that it wouldn't hurt to talk to a professional. Worst case, you spend an hour or two and maybe a co-pay and still feel the same way you do now. Best case they may make every day a little bit more bearable.
Imagine being trapped in an unwanted life, wanting to die, but staying alive because it is “right” for others.
Some simply want to be dead, not seek medical help. The arrangement of western life, however, is that one is expected to “seek help” when they’ve decided to pack it in.
I guess I don't understand how life is wanted/unwanted. I have no concept of what it is like to not have life, so how could I possibly prefer it? I think because I can't rationalize it makes me think that something else might be at play. At the end of the day seeking medical help has very little downside even if it isn't helpful. Not seeking medical help when it could have been helpful seems like it has a tremendous amount of downside with very little upside.
I don’t prefer death to life, i just don’t want to be alive. No clue what death may be like. Could be infinitely horrible or the opposite.
But I would never do anything while my cat, dad, and grandma are still alive. My partner would understand my decision. Other than that there’s not really anybody else I care enough about to change my life for.
I already spend enough on medicine and doctors. I’m not interested in any more.
In regards to spending enough on medicine and doctors, I guess I don't fully understand that. You mention blowing through your money at some point. Any reason why this wouldn't be something worth blowing money on?
With my health there’s always a non-zero chance that I’ll just collapse on a long run from low blood sugar and that’ll be that. I figure if it happens it happens. My savings is mostly intended for my partner and my cat in that situation. Not interested in giving it to anyone else. And it’s not like it’s a ton either. Would get eaten up in a hurry by doctors and prescriptions.
One day when I’m older and the future is a little clearer, maybe I’ll be more interested in spending more of it or giving some away to other people.
Caring about a person comes with the risk of being hurt. I think it's equally selfish to expect people not to do stuff that may hurt you.
If everyone who wanted to kill themselves were left to their own devices, they would do so, frequently without taking these steps.
We need to "stigmatise" suicide as a society, not because there aren't cases that can be helped, but because if we didn't we'd allow for a hell of a lot such false positives.
Thanks for telling me how I’m doing.
Yes, my body is currently healthy and relatively useful. But I still have no reason to keep going.
Try to be a little less of a judgemental know it all.
To me, the stigma of suicide is indicative of a broader flaw in the application of the value of life in society. Religious influences are fundamental to this stigma. Population has exploded in recent centuries. There's simply no way that everyone wants to be here, and exactly zero of us chose to be here (as far as we know, there is no pre-existence, and thus no opportunity to choose to be born).
As the notions of consciousness and existence are an enigma and will continue to be so for the foreseeable, the safe assumption is that every life is "valuable", that suicide is always "wrong" and if you're suicidal you must be "mentally ill" and need to "seek help".
It's unacceptable to simply not wish to exist anymore, regardless of your grievances about your own existence or existence in general. And, given that society now places more importance on each individual life, we grieve more than ever about premature deaths, something that was commonly accepted in older times. Combined with an interconnected information society, it seems that suicide in the west is quite forbidden, considering the real impact it has on the survivors (loved ones, followers of celebrities, strangers, etc).
A friend's grandfather killed himself a week or two after his lifelong wife died. The family view seemed to be it was rather touching. I got no impression anyone felt it was unfair. My friend certainly didn't.
After my dad died my mother lost interest in life. For the whole of the rest of her life she wasn't enjoying it, deeply missed my father, and was really just going through the motions. Not that she'd ever admit that though most saw it clearly. She wasn't likely to be remarrying in her 70s.
She died of natural causes. Had she taken her life, I'd have been upset, just as I was when she died. I think all her friends and family would have understood, and I certainly wouldn't have thought less of her. It wouldn't have hurt more. Actually almost certainly less, as it was so clear she was hugely unhappy those last years, even though she "coped" very well.
I sure as hell wouldn't have called it unfair or selfish. I'd have probably thought it fitting, touching or perhaps a relief for her. At the end of the day it is their life to do with as they choose, not mine.
So yes, of course it can be OK, not exclusively for the elderly either.
Interesting.
> 90% of mankind believe in god
Sorry, but that's just not the case.
~30-35%% of the population of Earth identify as some flavour of Christian. Others believe in all manner of other gods and entities and moralities.
Not sure why you feel the need to make up bullshit. It's arrogant to assume everybody else shares your beliefs.
i dont personally have the desire to interact with others much, ill never be having children or entering a relationship and i have not got a career, just a job that is a means to an end. while ive never been particularly well off ive managed to tick off most everything on my bucket list.
in short i lack purpose and have many times considered that maybe ive had enough, to what end should i continue to struggle on, things will only get harder as the years go on, i have no reason to struggle on so i dont need to be a drain on the resources of the country/world
That said, I do think people have the right to voluntarily end their own existence, but clearly many suicides are a result of temporary mental problems like severe depression, or temporary life problems like crippling debt, job loss or loss of a relationship. These things could have potentially been resolved.
I also think it's totally possible to have just had enough of life as well. It's an unpopular opinion because survival instinct is such a strong force, but I really don't think life is for everybody, and if that person wants to check out they are going to do it whether you like it or not.
A comedian once said;
“Life is like a movie, if you've sat through more than half of it and it’s sucked every second so far, it probably isn't going to get great right at the end and make it all worthwhile. None should blame you for walking out early.”
I tend to agree with that. Not all suicides are the result of mental illness. Some people just want to check out early because they never enjoyed being here, despite not having what outside observers may identify as mental or personal problems.
Some societies glorified suicide, or held it as a way out of dishonour (think the ship's captain locking himself in a room with a bottle of whiskey and a revolver, or the Samurai that accepted their own deaths long before they walked on the battlefield).
I think our attitudes towards suicide are partly social (it alarms us to see members of our own species ending their lives, as it doesn't jive well with our world view) and partly cultural/religious (Abrahamic religions treated suicide as a mortal sin) and other cultures may see the act of self-termination differently.
I also don't think its helpful to throw accusations of 'mental illness' around as easily as we seem to. Whether it is a suicide or a mass murder, instantly jumping to mental illness absolves us of the need to understand this uncomfortable aspect of humanity.
It is easier than accepting the cultural and philisophical factors at play, and the realisation that we are all capable of these acts given the right set of circumstances.
Philosophers have long pondered this question. You can find arguments for and against here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/
I’m going to say that spies off themselves at their prime ... as needed.
When I was suicidal, I wondered if my suicide could influence someone else I love to bite the bullet when they had a moment of weakness, and whether if I could live with that. I considered metaphorically putting a gun to my head was the same as putting a gun to another's psychologically. Honestly because I have had two suicide attempts... Even though I didn't succeed, I know I hurt the people I love very much.
I feel that every loss and death is like a tiny bomb in a social network, it stresses families and communities, and can even severely damage people.
https://www.brainpickings.org/2013/11/18/stay-suicide-hecht/
It's sad that we even consider it to be selfish. It shows how little empathy we have sometimes.
If someone jumps from the 40th floor of a burning building we can understand it. It's an extreme reaction to an extreme situation.
Like suicide.
My older brother killed himself in a failed attempt to convincingly pretend to be suicidal in order to be transferred to a lower security part of a prison. He forgot that prison guards aren't paid enough to give a shit about anything so they didn't follow their policy of roaming around and checking on people and he bled to death. He was going to be there until he was almost 50.
Trying to be objective as possible. I think if it was allowed and there wasn't a massive social stigma against it, there would still be huge issues. Even old, experienced people are woefully bad at accurately estimating when a situation is irretrievably hopeless. So I think we would see a lot of young people (not just young as in kids but also 30-40 year olds) killing themselves for really stupid reasons (like we already do).
We might see someone lose a job and kill themselves when there's a good chance they could have recovered. A business might fail. A relationship might end. A loved one might die suddenly. A lonely person might be tired of trying. The temporary release of severe anguish in exchange for a life you currently aren't very fond of doesn't seem a high cost to pay soon after traumatic events occur.
I'm generally considered a pessimist. However, when it comes to life, I can step back and acknowledge that there are lots of really bad situations that are redeemable. It might take years of work. It might involve being depressed or broke for a very long time. But persistent effort is the greatest indicator of success.
I've been depressed my whole life so I understand the struggle. I know that in addition to the regular life things many of us suffer from, there are also various types of trauma that make the ordinary things unbearable.
I could see situations where I agree someone may have never had any chance for their lives to improve.
I knew a young woman in her 20s with a 14-year old daughter with autism. The child had so many issues she had to be monitored 24/7 to keep her from hurting herself. The mother had a dead end, shitty job (coincidentally she was a prison guard) that barely allowed her to survive. Between the job and the kid it was laughable to suggest that she had any realistic chance at all of going to school or finding a better job. When her girlfriend left her, she killed herself. She wasn't a friend of mine, only an acquaintance that I didn't know well. I wish she were still here, mostly from the pain that most any of us would feel from simply knowing a person that died young. However, when I step back and analyze her situation and try to think of any possibility of her finding some kind of relief or comfort, I don't think she had a chance. As a high school dropout, I should be a failure too, but I was fortunate and my interests as a youth happened to become very marketable.
Some of us are forever trapped by the decisions we make when we are younger. For those of us like this girl, where not just one or two things are stacked against you, but seemingly everything. How can we judge? I want to be angry at any person that leaves a child alone in this world when it could have been prevented, but would I have the strength to live an impoverished life of waking hell for 60 years? I'm not very confident I could.
Note that this freedom I am describing does not include anything that impedes another's freedom in any way. No murder, robbery, all the normal stuff.
If you can't prove that you are sane, and emotionally healthy, then you don't get to buy guns, get married, earn more than $x per year and so on.
If a person is in this unhealthy or ignorant state they should be taken care of by the state and reintegrated in the way that suits them best.
I don't ever want this implemented for many, many reasons.