>What caused the police-state to raise up its ugly head? In this case, the justification was a website created to organize against a rally of an extreme right political party. It seems in Bavaria, you cannot make a website that tries to get people to come protest neo-fascists without also offending the police.
This is simply wrong. The website called for violence.
I see unsourced information (inciting violence; whether it's true or not is not my point[1]) and irrelevant information (what does it matter if they're communist, the implication being that it does, and that they're getting what's coming to them). The lack of a disclaimer otherwise also may be seen as tacit approval of the police raid.
[1] This appears to be site in question: https://augsburgfuerkrawalltouristen.noblogs.org/ (German). At first glance it seems pretty tame. Maybe they changed it, I don't know. And of course the relation to raids is tenuous.
Which website called for violence? On rise-up I see only anti-violence and anti-authoritarian posts.
riseup is for sure not a communist organization. It's anti-authoritarian and anti-fascist. Communists are very authoritarian. German police seems to be also very authoritarian and fascist friendly. They are multiple accounts of german courts and police actively protecting fascists, who are calling for violence. And targeting anti-fascists, who are criticising said violence.
That's actually true. I don't know why both the CCC and Riseup feel the need to exclude that the website explicitly asked for violent protests. It doesn't change the fact that the raids were pointless and to some extend disproportionate. It sure is a good way to give up the moral high ground though.
These are the article, which are problematic. First one calls for riot/turmoil ("Krawall"). Second one has instructions for violent protests.
They are using communist/socialists emblems. Their statements indicate that they do not like the current capitalist society and want to abolish it: "freedom from want"; "world without oppression or hierarchy, where power is shared equally" https://riseup.net/en/about-us
The Communist Manifesto ends with the words "The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare..."
Thus, to be a communist means to openly declare that you are a communist. Marx made this point elsewhere, as did subsequent communists.
Of course, under state repression (like this) this convention is not expected to be followed blindly. If communists are being arrested in a country, communists are not expected to put up their hands and say "come get me too". But to be a communist means to openly be one when legally possible (with few exceptions - a handful of self-described communists like Ted Grant thought otherwise).
Riseup.net does not describe itself as communist. In fact its about page says it stands against vanguardism, which in the milieu in which it sits means it is against Leninism. Which means they are not communist in any form modern people would understand.
Might be a good time to donate. Especially Zwiebelfreunde will need money to cover their lawyers. Note that if you donate via IBAN, your account data will likely be in the hands of the police. At least when the next raid happens.
IMO, Anarchy definitions are not consistent enough to use the term univocally, definitions sometimes contradict each other.
They are leftists, because they see capitalism (and hence private property) as oppression and want to abolish it (instead of the moderate leftists who just want to regulate it in 'favor' of poor people), that makes them radical leftists.
Most people on the left want regulation to provide a universal safety net, if you want to regulate capitalism to favor poor people you are essentially for full on wealth redistribution which does put you on the radical side.
Naw, it's fine. "Leftist," used as an insult, was invented by actual bolsheviks to insult left-coms, mostly anarchists. It's a term many of us wear with pride.
There are several comments here to the effect that Riseup is “communist” (although I cannot tell whether that's intended as a slur or compliment). Reading their “About us” and even “Political Principles” page, there's nothing terribly Communisty. Anyone have a pointer to backstory?
They are at the very least anti-capitalist. I won't make any assumptions beyond that, but in the West it is not so big a leap of faith from one to the other.
Our purpose is to aid in the creation of a free society, a world with freedom from want and freedom of expression, a world without oppression or hierarchy, where power is shared equally. We do this by providing communication and computer resources to allies engaged in struggles against capitalism and other forms of oppression.
We oppose all forms of prejudice, authoritarianism, and vanguardism (possibly a reference to Leninist party vanguardism, which anarcho-communists reject.)
We work to create revolution and a free society in the here and now
Also FWIW, their favicon is a star in anarcho-communist colours.
You are correct. Their about page says "We oppose all forms of prejudice, authoritarianism and vanguardism".
Opposing authoritarianism is implicitly saying they are not communist, saying they are against vanguardism (a word used by Lenin) means they are explicitly saying they are not communist.
Also as their web page says, they are not really a group with an ideology. They are a bunch of left-leaning techs who provide mailing lists, web site service etc. for left-leaning groups who "believe it is vital that essential communication infrastructure be controlled by movement organizations and not corporations".
My guess for what happened - the police were looking for one person or group that uses Riseup. As so many progressive organizations use Riseup, the targeting of one user or group of the service became a targeting of five locations, of people who provide the technological infrastructure of much of the left in Germany.
Just explicitly not Marxist-Leninist. I thought there were plenty of communists who made up with anarchists after balking at Lenin and the Comintern's demands in the 1920s.
while I have upvoted this story and deeply sympathize with the victims of what appears to be a wide 'overreach of power' by the police, I also had a look at the website that was the 'cause' of this raid.
!!! EDIT: I was under the impression, that this was their website. This is absolutely NOT proven and changes my viewpoint drastically !!!
While I deeply sympathize with the political views and what they are protesting (a far right-wing party in germany), they have published/written tutorials on different forms/tools of protesting ranging from 'peaceful' tools like grafitti and the use of colors up to how to use stones, nails in boards (wood boards? similar to this: https://bit.ly/2tTF0kp) in order to stop cars or even how to burn cars.
Now I'm not a lawyer, but while tutorials/information like this in itself probably isn't illegal, I assume there are laws that prohibit spurring people to protest using 'force'/violence. The context of this website and having those tutorials on it (including use gloves if you are using stones, because there could be fingerprints on it) combined with locations of AFD (super right-wing party) friendly locations can easily be seen/interpreted as a 'call to "violence"'.
It's a super interesting debate, but it's not as black and white as those CCC members make it appear. Again, I deeply sympathize with their cause - I am probably not perfectly OK with their methods, though.
Is is worth mentioning that the german police has stated, that the only connection between this website and the people raided is, that they process donations for riseup. They have nothing to do with this website. And the police never thought, that they have.
To translate what happened into HN terms and analogy: the Open Source Initiative is an umbrella organization which advocates for Mozilla, Linux, Debian, Python, Apache and other open source projects.
Riseup.net is similar. It is not a group with a very specific ideology, it is an umbrella organization which many organizations are associated with, inside and outside of Germany. In the case of Riseup.net they are an umbrella for left-leaning groups. As their web site says, they provide tech services like email, web etc.
The raids on five locations were on Riseup.net, this umbrella tech organization which provides tech resources for much of the left.
Look at Riseup.net's mailing lists. Thousands of left-leaning groups have mailing lists there. Riseup is not an organization with a narrow focus. It is like a GitHub or Gmail of the left.
What probably happened is the German police were focusing on one person or group using the service, and raided not the members of that one mailing list, but the overarching umbrella organization that has 999 mailing lists on feminism and such.
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[ 4.9 ms ] story [ 98.8 ms ] threadThis is simply wrong. The website called for violence.
Also riseup is a communist organization.
[1] This appears to be site in question: https://augsburgfuerkrawalltouristen.noblogs.org/ (German). At first glance it seems pretty tame. Maybe they changed it, I don't know. And of course the relation to raids is tenuous.
https://augsburgfuerkrawalltouristen.noblogs.org/anleitungen...
These are the article, which are problematic. First one calls for riot/turmoil ("Krawall"). Second one has instructions for violent protests.
Please donate here to support them: https://riseup.net/en/donate
riseup is for sure not a communist organization. It's anti-authoritarian and anti-fascist. Communists are very authoritarian. German police seems to be also very authoritarian and fascist friendly. They are multiple accounts of german courts and police actively protecting fascists, who are calling for violence. And targeting anti-fascists, who are criticising said violence.
Apparently the authors use a Riseup email account.
That's actually true. I don't know why both the CCC and Riseup feel the need to exclude that the website explicitly asked for violent protests. It doesn't change the fact that the raids were pointless and to some extend disproportionate. It sure is a good way to give up the moral high ground though.
Do you have the original website text/archive?
> Also riseup is a communist organization.
They appear to be pro-democracy, anti-authoritarianism.
https://augsburgfuerkrawalltouristen.noblogs.org/anleitungen...
These are the article, which are problematic. First one calls for riot/turmoil ("Krawall"). Second one has instructions for violent protests.
They are using communist/socialists emblems. Their statements indicate that they do not like the current capitalist society and want to abolish it: "freedom from want"; "world without oppression or hierarchy, where power is shared equally" https://riseup.net/en/about-us
The Communist Manifesto ends with the words "The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare..."
Thus, to be a communist means to openly declare that you are a communist. Marx made this point elsewhere, as did subsequent communists.
Of course, under state repression (like this) this convention is not expected to be followed blindly. If communists are being arrested in a country, communists are not expected to put up their hands and say "come get me too". But to be a communist means to openly be one when legally possible (with few exceptions - a handful of self-described communists like Ted Grant thought otherwise).
Riseup.net does not describe itself as communist. In fact its about page says it stands against vanguardism, which in the milieu in which it sits means it is against Leninism. Which means they are not communist in any form modern people would understand.
RiseUp: https://riseup.net/donate
Zwiebelfreunde: https://www.torservers.net/donate.html
They are leftists, because they see capitalism (and hence private property) as oppression and want to abolish it (instead of the moderate leftists who just want to regulate it in 'favor' of poor people), that makes them radical leftists.
To them, capitalism is a form of oppression.
https://riseup.net/en/about-us
Our purpose is to aid in the creation of a free society, a world with freedom from want and freedom of expression, a world without oppression or hierarchy, where power is shared equally. We do this by providing communication and computer resources to allies engaged in struggles against capitalism and other forms of oppression.
We oppose all forms of prejudice, authoritarianism, and vanguardism (possibly a reference to Leninist party vanguardism, which anarcho-communists reject.)
We work to create revolution and a free society in the here and now
Also FWIW, their favicon is a star in anarcho-communist colours.
Opposing authoritarianism is implicitly saying they are not communist, saying they are against vanguardism (a word used by Lenin) means they are explicitly saying they are not communist.
Also as their web page says, they are not really a group with an ideology. They are a bunch of left-leaning techs who provide mailing lists, web site service etc. for left-leaning groups who "believe it is vital that essential communication infrastructure be controlled by movement organizations and not corporations".
My guess for what happened - the police were looking for one person or group that uses Riseup. As so many progressive organizations use Riseup, the targeting of one user or group of the service became a targeting of five locations, of people who provide the technological infrastructure of much of the left in Germany.
Just explicitly not Marxist-Leninist. I thought there were plenty of communists who made up with anarchists after balking at Lenin and the Comintern's demands in the 1920s.
Thought and discussion termination isn’t cool.
!!! EDIT: I was under the impression, that this was their website. This is absolutely NOT proven and changes my viewpoint drastically !!!
While I deeply sympathize with the political views and what they are protesting (a far right-wing party in germany), they have published/written tutorials on different forms/tools of protesting ranging from 'peaceful' tools like grafitti and the use of colors up to how to use stones, nails in boards (wood boards? similar to this: https://bit.ly/2tTF0kp) in order to stop cars or even how to burn cars.
Now I'm not a lawyer, but while tutorials/information like this in itself probably isn't illegal, I assume there are laws that prohibit spurring people to protest using 'force'/violence. The context of this website and having those tutorials on it (including use gloves if you are using stones, because there could be fingerprints on it) combined with locations of AFD (super right-wing party) friendly locations can easily be seen/interpreted as a 'call to "violence"'.
It's a super interesting debate, but it's not as black and white as those CCC members make it appear. Again, I deeply sympathize with their cause - I am probably not perfectly OK with their methods, though.
edit: the website (in german) for those who want to judge themselves: https://augsburgfuerkrawalltouristen.noblogs.org/ Loosely translated: "Augsburg (city) for riot tourists"
Riseup.net is similar. It is not a group with a very specific ideology, it is an umbrella organization which many organizations are associated with, inside and outside of Germany. In the case of Riseup.net they are an umbrella for left-leaning groups. As their web site says, they provide tech services like email, web etc.
The raids on five locations were on Riseup.net, this umbrella tech organization which provides tech resources for much of the left.
Look at Riseup.net's mailing lists. Thousands of left-leaning groups have mailing lists there. Riseup is not an organization with a narrow focus. It is like a GitHub or Gmail of the left.
What probably happened is the German police were focusing on one person or group using the service, and raided not the members of that one mailing list, but the overarching umbrella organization that has 999 mailing lists on feminism and such.