If someone could actually make this, I would gladly pay an annual subscription to access it. Almost the only reason I'm still buying MacBooks is because of the touchpad, and if I could get that on Linux I probably would just switch to a normal PC.
Why would you use a mouse if you're on a laptop? Especially a macbook, where the trackpad is fantastic to use and offers gestures which give you features you don't get with a mouse.
Gestures are awful... They're nonstandard between boxes, and often flaky as all hell. One of the first things I disable on a new OS install.
Why wouldn't you use a mouse, and get better precision, a standard form-factor, and universally solid drivers? Besides, you can take your mouse and plug it into any machine you need to work on.
> Why wouldn't you use a mouse, and get better precision, a standard form-factor, and universally solid drivers?
Most non-Mac-users do. Mac users don't, because they have a touchpad with better precision, a standard form factor and solid drivers. Hence this post. Why should I need to carry a peripheral everywhere for functionality my laptop purportedly has integrated?
One could counter-argue that touchpad is inherently worse than a mouse, but I think you'll find Apple have roundly disproven that. There's a reason the Magic Trackpad exists (though I've never owned one, demand seems to be there).
I prefer touchpads because the travel time to them is much lower. They also are always in the same place. I can even use them with my thumb while leaving my fingers on the home row.
For most use cases pointing devices makes you less productive than using a keyboard. Going forth and back between keyboard and a pointing device is even worse.
Spend the time to optimize your workflow to be pointer-free as much as you can and you'll never go back.
I think it's that attitude that people are downvoting. There is more than one way to be a developer; there are many different workflows that are possible. The fraction of a second that I might lose by using a pointing device is made up for by not having to set up and memorize arcane and sometimes rarely documented key combinations that might not be the same from program to program and system to system.
My 20+ year career has been programming for Linux. You won't find a mouse on my desk, because I bought Thinkpad USB keyboards. I have a full-size one with numeric keypad in my office at work, not because I use the keypad but because it makes the whole thing slightly more stable on my desk.
I don't really use the touchpad part though---I use the "track-point" pointing stick embedded in the center of the keyboard. Without that, I feel like I was transported back in time and placed in front of a VT220 terminal or some dusty old Sun workstation. I am concerned that these seem discontinued, but I also have
spare travel-sized units which may last for the rest of my career...
I have one on the Dell laptop I'm using (which also has a touchpad). Once in a while I try to use it, but I find it almost impossible control with any kind of precision. Changing the sensitivity doesn't help much.
I first tried that device on the first Thinkpads that had it, back in the 90's or whenever it was. I have always had the same reaction to it.
How do you use it? Is this just a matter of getting used to it, and if it is, how long does it take?
The Dell ones are vastly inferior to the ThinkPad ones. While I do not know the ones in the 20, the last ten or so years I worked solely with TrackPoint first under Linux now under Windows 10. Under Windows 10, there's a Mouse tab in Control Panel, there's a sensitivity slider and I found it's best to have it just one notch below fastest. The default makes me feel I am wrestling with my laptop.
Same here. I had big hopes for Dell's nipple, but it's hardly usable and I tend to prefer the touchpad.
On my own Lenovo, I use the nipple exclusively, and touchpad is disabled completely. I had played Quake vs other human players with the nipple and won, and I find it vastly superior to any kind of touchpad.
I have no idea how not to use it. Right index finger (I'm right handed) moves it round, right thumb presses the keys.
I'm not a classic touch typist, but my fingers tend to be near the home row most of the time, having the pointing device one or two keys away, and the mouse buttons next to space, is a big benefit. Having to shift my left hand to the left, and right hand down 3", just to move the pointer, feels like a lot of effort.
I use point-to-focus (but not raise) a fair bit too, as moving the mouse is almost as easy as alt-tab, I use it a lot to switch between terminal windows.
> I have no idea how not to use it. Right index finger (I'm right handed) moves it round, right thumb presses the keys.
That's completely immaterial to the precision of it, which is why I'm unable to use it: I never managed to aim at something, I take ages to actually reach a button to click on it (either under- or over-shooting it unless I move the cursor extremely slowly) let alone select some characters in the middle of text.
I have that issue on neither trackpad nor mouse, and can use both reliably precisely.
I find it (on my 8 year old t410s) far more precise than any trackpad I've used, and more precise than the old ball-mouse and trackballs. I guess it's what you know.
I actually just used the touchpad on said laptop with my thumb, to move the arrow to the 'reply' button (I have an inbuilt distrust of tab on websites). And now I used the trackpoint to resize the text box to read my reply, again without thinking about it.
I suspect that when I'm in "doing" mode I use the trackpoint, when I'm in "consuming" mode I use the pad.
Odd. I find the trackpoint more precise than any touchpad, Macs included. I've owned Macbooks for years yet am instantly happier, and faster, on the keyboard and trackpoint of the wife's T series.
I'd pay significantly more over already inflated Apple prices to have my MBP with a trackpoint and no touchpad.
Yeah odd it's as if different people have different sensibilities and my experience with trackpoints has no influence on yours and the other way around. How surprising.
No, I was not. Go back and actually read my comment, I very specifically talked about myself and my precision using a trackpoint. In support of lokedhs professing to the same. And as an expression of the uselessness and irrelevance of isostatic's comment answering a question nobody'd asked.
But as usual the trackpoint zealots can't even take an expression of personal issues as anything but a personal attack on their way of life. Ya folks are tiring.
> That's completely immaterial to the precision of it, which is why I'm unable to use it
To me that reads as though you are unable to use it because the device itself is imprecise. That some indeed do find it more precise would seem to exonerate the device. Personal preference, is a different can of worms. :)
I agree and I have the same issue as you. I'm on a ThinkPad T480 running Ubuntu and I only use the trackpad. Whenever I use trackpoint (the nipple/stick/whatever) I'm constantly overshooting, so it doesn't matter whether I can get to it quickly or not from the home row, because I waste more time trying to position the cursor over the tab or button I'm trying to click than I do on the trackpad. Also, on the trackpad I don't have to physically click a button with my thumb, I just have to lightly tap.
Now maybe I could get better at the precision piece for trackpoint overtime, but if you use trackpoint you also lose the ability to do multi-touch (two finger) scrolling, which I think is a huge time saver, b/c you can scroll without having to find the scroll bar and/or moving your hand over to the arrow/page keys.
From what I've read, those don't have the same feel as the keyboards used in the laptops and are definitely unrelated hardware. Since the keyboards are one of the "switched/repaired in < 5min parts" of (older) thinkpads, I don't get why there isn't just a case with an USB converter available. I would pay way to much for an authentic external Thinkpad keyboard. Nothing I have encountered so far feels comparable.
Macbook took a couple months of adjustment. But there is almost no use of muscle whatsoever when moving the mouse on a macbook. Thinkpads feel incredibly straining in comparison now. And scrolling on a macbook...completely effortless. There is nothing like it.
I'm using a Dell Latitude E7440 for years now with Linux, and scrolling is effortless. I'm really intrigued by what exactly the MBP scroll does better.
I love them when doing programming that requires my fingers to rarely leave the keyboard. It's nice to be able to nudge the mouse here or there occasionally without having the context switch of moving my fingers completely off the keyboard.
To me this was the big benefit of the pressure-sensitive MacBook trackpad —- since clicking is just pressing harder, you can use it with a thumb while your fingers are on the home row.
For years, they were the only things I would use. I could never effectively use trackpads until I got my first MacBook which had the first one I actively liked rather than barely tolerated.
These days, I still have a Lenovo X200 for Linux and still use the pointer there although I'm generally happy with trackpads across the board. (Except on Windows apparently. I had to get a mouse for my 17" Alienware laptop because the trackpad still drove me crazy.)
I am the same. I don't use touchpad at all on my Thinkpad. Give me a laptop without one but with better keyboard or at least speaker above it any day. Other than being quick to point to things nipple is amazing for scrolling. This is something Mac can't get close to, especially if you need to scroll a lot.
Same here, I'm much more productive with a track point and three buttons. I feel trapped buying Thinkpad (which have slowly become less and less robuste and well-designed) the same way some people in here say they feel trap buying Mac.
Having said that, this is the beauty of Linux, let people use what they like, being devices or window managers.
If it works and you got used to it, it is so great on the integrated display. I got so used to not leaving the home row, I get annoyed when I have to use the arrow keys.
My X220 nipple unfortunately became a little unreliable. Needs calibration often (auto moving cursor) and sometimes one direction works better than others. It's annoying, especially since the touchpad is just unusable.
Any suggestions? Hardware or software issue? Would a new rubber nipple hood thingy help?
Its probably a hardware issue. I worked at IBM and they were very proud of that device that was invented there. They had a little glass display with the hardware broken out and prototypes.
It works with strain gauges[1]. Thats why you can control the speed of the pointer, not just the direction. When you get used to it, its quite effective.
You can pull the rubber nub off and try it, that shouldn't help but it might. If its sticking in a position that isn't "Neutral"
Oddly IBM made a mouse with that nub pointer thing. It worked so much better that any sort of wheel for pointing and scrolling, but I left it when I left IBM many many moons ago.
They are great, but the jumbo Macbook trackpads are better (I use both - my macbook's external keyboard is a Lenovo SK-8855). Also, be careful not to strain your fingers too much on the trackpoint. You could easily get carpal tunnel. My fingers start tingling after using the trackpoint for too long.
No. I prefer the Thinkpad nipple and sad they added a touchpad as it just gets in the way. I wish it was a BTO option to have the nipple only or touchpad only, or both.
The nipple on every other manufacturer I have tried isn't even usable. The nipple on the Thinkpad is god like. I used to hear of designers prefer it for Photoshop editing back in the days before Lenovo.
That said, I am using a MacBook Pro now with macOS and have been for years because I tend to spend way too much time tinkering to get things perfect.
I used to care a lot about this kind of things about two years ago when I switched from mac to linux. But to be honest, you just kind of get used to it after a while and its not really that much of a deal breaker anymore. I spend most of my time in terminals, and I use i3wm so most of my workflow doesnt involve using the touchpad at all. The only use case i have for it is when using chrome, but even so theres vimium and similar things to help you navigate around without leaving your keyboard.
I relate to this comment. I've been using an old HP 8460p for the past few years, and almost always prefer to use the keyboard. Even without i3 there's things like tmux that make it much easier.
Same. Maybe it's just my specific track pad (Precision 5520), but libinput works great for me, with really good palm rejection. I never really used the other fancy trackpad features so I got over it pretty quick.
Having said that, before libinput I was ready to return my laptop, because the palm rejection was so horrendous with synaptics.
Depends if you think you're moving the document, or moving the viewport. Touchscreen behaviour is touching the document and moving it up, while your view remains the same. Traditional scroll behavior is that you're moving the view of your document down while the document itself doesn't move.
Either way, one method is "the original one", the other method is the opposite, or reversed, from the original method.
I don't really care either way - it's a setting so you can use what you prefer.
But the default Apple 'moving the document' setting is extremely consistent with the rest of the trackpad. When you use one finger you move the cursor, not the viewport relative to the cursor. Why would it be different with two fingers?
Traditional scrolling is consistent with the arrow keys, that is, moving your fingers down on the scroll wheel or the trackpad moves in the same direction as pressing the down arrow in the keyboard. (The arrow keys traditionally move a text cursor through the document, and the scrolling happens when it hits an edge; this is why they content scrolls in the opposite direction.)
For the same reason that controllers have both "normal" and "inverted". It's all in your point of view. Are you controlling like a mouse (up on the joystick looks up) or like a joystick (forward on the joystick is like tilting your head forward, and looks down).
For me, I hate the "natural" scrolling, because I map scrolling motions to "up" and "down". Moving my fingers downward should do what I think of as "down", which is to see what's below my current screen. I have an XPS 15 with the touchscreen, and only when you're actually touching the screen does "down moves the document down (and goes up toward the top)" make sense.
> The original one is the reversed one. Fingers go up, content goes down.
Fingers go up, viewport goes up, as with a scroll wheel. Neither is reversed, they're just different interpretations of the action.
> That’s wrong as anyone who has used a phone or tablet can tell you.
Nonsense. With a phone or tablet, you're manipulating the content itself, directly. Not so with a trackpad or mouse. The display is not under my trackpad.
The original direction made some sense when transitioning from mice with scroll wheels. (Though it is debatable whether the mouse wheel's direction was ever right.)
The current "reversed" direction makes more sense in an era of iPads, smartphones and touch screens.
The "reversed" (more accurately the natural direction) makes just as much sense with a trackpad as a touchscreen... And I would argue that the original mouse wheel got it wrong too.
> Do you find the original scrolling mechanism, or the reversed scrolling mechanism, to be "just right"?
I can’t tell if you’re referring to the present default scroll behavior or that which was default several years ago. Given that this can be changed in the System Preferences app, it’s a non-argument. It can be set to scroll in either direction.
All that said, I’ve been tremendously disappointed with the new HP laptop touchpad at my current employer. My MBA gets it so right that every shortcoming of the HP is obvious. It requires far more effort to be accurate.
I have been using 12" MacBooks since they came out because I live out of a backpack and travel a lot.
I cannot find anything comparable in terms of size/weight/battery and build quality. Especially the trackpad, nothing is remotely close. Otherwise I'd get that and put Arch on it.
People complain Apple is expensive, not so sure. The TCO may actually be less because of the high resale value. It is also more convenient.
More than once when faced with crossing an annoying border (TSA, sigh) I'd sell the Macbook at my origin and simply pickup a new one at the destination. Thirty minutes in-and-out of the Apple store, they all seem to have exceptionally fast wifi, and setup handled via a curl-to-bash of mine gets me exactly back to where I started, down to the sessions..
Since my points of origin usually have higher Apple prices due to currency/taxes, I end up accidentally eking out a profit after months of use per machine.
If you can't be arsed with the above consider this: Their retail global presence is getting to be quite complete, even coming to Samsung land (Seoul, behold: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt4ldH5vQCQ) and Tel Aviv finally along with some others. Most big airport hub cities will have an Apple store close by.
Stuff gets broken or stolen and yet with this setup I'm generally never 24 hours away from my exact laptop setup...
yeah if you're going through the trouble of selling and buying a new mac it really seems a drive wipe is more than sufficient but I may be missing something. in general traveling without a computer is easier than travelling with one.
I can see how selling a used MacBook(purchased in the USA from a state without state taxes) could just be sold off as a used item in say Europe, before returning back to the US. The difference in cost could actually be a net positive.
Now, if all your files live in the cloud, and you have your setup automated completely, why not?
It is ridiculous how hard it is to get ANSI keyboards here (Germany). Laptops are ok (Macs, Lenovo and Dell) but external keyboards (especially mechanical ) and any other laptop brand are a huge hassle.
For dev work an US keyboard is actually preferable.
While we’re here, let me just add another little form of “geographic advantage” (?) to the mix: you all know cmd-‘ pages through windows of the same application. On a US layout ‘ is right up next to tab, which makes it extremely convenient to remember the mnemonics of cmd-‘ and cmd-tab. In US intl ‘ is shoved down next to lshift, and the premium key top of tab is the useless §.
Really depends on their comfort/paranoia level. If the device is taken out of their sight for more than a few minutes, they'd be highly suspicious. More so if you are crossing borders of countries known to be hostile.
> Really depends on their comfort/paranoia level. If the device is taken out of their sight for more than a few minutes, they'd be highly suspicious.
If your expected adversary is a nation-state intelligence agency, what do you expect to do? Take your laptop with you everywhere you go, all the time? Leave in your apartment for a theoretical attacker to execute an evil maid attack on it?
FDE is highly useful against ordinary adversaries. People with the financial/staffing/training resources to run surveillance on you 24x7 and access your equipment while it's unattended, that's an entirely other ball game.
You are considering only the extremes. There's also a ground between ordinary adversaries and nation-state agencies.
Take for example China. There are plenty of rumours about business executives taking throw-away electronics while crossing the border or how China installs some random software on people's devices when crossing a border neighbouring a certain province[1]
FDE can also lead to increased suspicion when crossing a border and refusal to unlock the system can pretty much lead to a denial of entry or, worse, detention. FDE also doesn't help in cases when a random border crossing can require installing a malicious boot-loader or a persistent malware somewhere in the system.
In the China story, they might not be installing a persistent bootloader but there's nothing really stopping them from doing that.
Honestly, in certain cases (and I'd rather say, a lot of cases) it's just easier to have no device than deal with what they did to your device after the fact or just sell the device after entering if you are suspicious of it.
A nation-state also has a gap between the most advanced capabilities and what can be used on a routine basis.
For instance a TSA screener is not going to have access to the latest and greatest because information about it gets leaked people will take counter measures.
This isn't about fancy "infosec" threats, this is about TSA breaking or stealing your laptop, or alternatively ordering you to unlock it or they won't let you (a non-American) into the country.
I think people are really confusing TSA with border control. TSA cares about people bringing knives and bombs on planes. US CBP/ICE or similar is a very different thing from TSA. I've never heard of TSA asking for any more detailed inspection of a laptop than swabbing it for chemical residue, and asking that it be powered on to confirm it's a real working laptop. CBP/ICE on the other hand are a totally different story (as documented extensively by the EFF, etc).
people definitely conflate the two, especially since the TSA has in the past taken great interest in peoples laptops. I don't think they currently have the authority to do any sort of accessing of the data on peoples computing devices.
I would be disinclined to try to tell TSA what their authority is, just as I am disinclined to tell them in person that it's flipping stupid to require me to remove my belt.
Telling the hands of the government that they don't have the authority seems like a very fast ticket to a very inconvenient travel delay. There's almost certainly some rule or administrative thing where they Can Get Away With pretty much what they say you can, and then you're stuck finding a lawyer.
Continuously the last two years, 30+ countries. :)
What kind of details are you looking for? I unbox at the Apple store and:
- Temporarily turn off Spotlight & Time Machine (Permanently) because it helpfully tries to index everything and tinker with a handful of system preferences while a memorized curl|bash runs
Mostly appearance related. This can also be automated but doesn't seem worth it as it only takes a minute. I don't use iCloud.
- Selective sync with Dropbox (which was just installed for me), mostly for the 1Password folder, while the rest of the script runs. Read HN or better yet about the new surroundings.
- Manually run software update and reboot into my now familiar machine
- Turn spotlight back on
I do forget to remap the esc key each time I do this, or the name of the thingie that helps you do that, that's about the only noticeable difference between old and new machines.
I'm not sure to which key you want to remap esc to, but if it is to any of Command, Option, Control, fn or Caps Lock, you can do that from the Keyboard Preferences: https://i.imgur.com/whzlIW9.png
I had a Thinkpad x200s, and all in all, nothing came/comes close to it (tolerating the slightly thicker build, which is inevitable for highly serviceable machines).
I've been an MBA user as well, for reference. I use the mousepad little to none though. Possibly (but I'm not sure, since I haven't tried) IBM had such capillary distribution to support the quite bizarre use case of selling and repurchasing a new machine every few months.
Sadly, the line is over, and this type of build is obsolete nowadays.
X220i here, and even though modern browsers and applications do tax its CPU (leading to shorter battery life), I still get at least 5 hours out of a new (and inexpensive) 9-cell battery. Build quality is simply second to none, the hinges are still perfectly tight with no slop, even after 7 years.
I have one of those from work and running NixOS in it, everything works perfectly and I love the machine.
Btw if thinking of a X1C for Linux use, I'd skip the latest for now due to them changing how the sleep works and it having issues even with Windows (losing battery while sleeping). The fifth model is great though, if you're not looking for the 8th gen CPU and HDR screen.
x220 user myself, great little machine. Hard to break. I upgraded the disk, 16 GB RAM and new battery. I once dissassembled it completely to replace the CPU thermal paste and was surprised by how easy it was. Now I'm confident that whatever breaks I'll just fix it.
> tolerating the slightly thicker build, which is inevitable for highly serviceable machines
I'm in the same boat, and I actually think the lack of serviceability is a feature. On the x220 you can change the disk, the memory and the keyboard just by unscrewing a few screws. On newer laptops, including the whole Thinkpad line, you'll eventually end up breaking little pieces of plastic involved in holding the bottom of the machines, regardless of how much care you take, using the right tools etc...
Especially considering that the gain is to be thin, which really doesn't add much to laptop. If you're restricted for space, then the width is the key factor (try to use anything bigger than a 13 inch on an airplane!). "Thin" seems to be a pissing contest between laptop manufacturers, which the marketing departments then took care of convincing buyers that it was an important feature.
I upgraded the RAM on my T470P a while back and there wasn't anything to break really, the clips where robust and it was 7 screws to take the back off.
It wasn't noticeably different to my R50 a long time ago.
I think they mean the classic install process of "curl -s <url> | bash", used to download and then execute a bash script. The real question in my opinion is what kind of tools can fully set up an entire environment, including sessions, from a bash script? Homebrew only gets you so far.
I haven't played with it on my mac, but I've been headed down the path of setting up my environment with Ansible. I have one script that bootstraps Ansible, and it does the rest. That said, I haven't managed to get everything in there yet. It requires discipline to never set things up without putting them in configuration management (same as if you're configuring servers).
Possibly a complete image of the disk. dd'ing from an SSD with trim gets you zeros for the unused sectors, otherwise write a big file with zeros on the remaining space.
This data compresses quite well and gets you all the hidden and extra attributes an rsync might miss. That would be my unix-y approach.
Some of the old Boxen libraries (Puppet automation for things generally outside of the "run a command to install" area--like complex OS configuration and per-application setting installation) plus a bit of bash and a few Hammerspoon scripts gets me working. It's not pretty, but usually means the only things I have to do manually are install XCode and log into a few accounts (unless I'm changing hardware types or OSX vesions).
Apologies for the self-plug but this is what I built for GitHub to do exactly this: https://github.com/MikeMcQuaid/strap. Add Homebrew Bundle and a Dotfiles repo into the mix and you get what was described. This is obviously pretty Homebrew and GitHub centric because I work on both.
I just rsync my home directory and re-run the nix installer.
Setting up my mac is a matter of letting things run overnight mostly (the rsync primarily).
Then chsh to zsh and log in/out and bam, back in business. I put all my apps in ~/Applications as well or as often as I can. I think screen flow is the only app that I need to install, but that is a bit of a one off and not often used so no big deal.
Whoa, why? Or, more specifically, why are you not using migration from a prior Mac or from a Time Machine backup? The ease with which a Mac user can be up and running on new hardware is, to me, one of the larger advantages of the platform. I know, this being HN, that you likely have a number of FOSS tools installed; are they somehow not getting picked up properly by migration & backup?
True story: we were robbed in 2012, in a quickie smash-and-grab through a rear patio (glass) door. They were in and out in maybe 1 minute, and took only what they could see from the yard -- which included my Macbook Pro.
We're well insured, so I went and got a new one the next day, plugged it into my Time Machine drive, and went and had lunch. When I came back, my new machine was ready to go -- all my apps, all my data, and even all my app windows were restored.
> I cannot find anything comparable in terms of size/weight/battery and build quality. Especially the trackpad, nothing is remotely close. Otherwise I'd get that and put Arch on it.
I tried for a while, and running it natively really hammered the battery, got nowhere close to the same uptime as when running macOS. Running it in a VM was OK on battery, but of course there's CPU/RAM overhead, and the trackpad _feels_ nice, but it still doesn't quite move in the right way.
Some distros don't offer a laptop-optimized build explicitly. But many times this is because the optimization is performed as an automated step during the installation process.
That said, some popular distros do offer laptop modes during install. Off the top of my head, I think Ubuntu and Gentoo do.
The tweaks don't always work without any issues: speakers make static or USB ports get disabled even with wireless mice, for example. Distros don't want to cause problems like this.
What about the trackpad though? Of course the hardware feel is the same and great, but it doesn't move quite right, like it does with macOS, or you would with a mouse.
I've been using a 13" MBP for years, and am almost astounded by how much I take it, and its trackpad for granted from reading this thread. Also-- Would love it if you could share an example of the bash you execute to restore everything right up to the sessions (redacted where necessary)!
Mid 2014 MBPr here. Got it the day after it came out for about $1000 after winning the Best Buy coupon lottery. I haven’t had a single thought of replacing it since. Its battery still lasts me all day, the laptop hasn’t slowed down on me, and is still completely silent. I’ve dropped it plenty of times and I’m getting a bit suspicious of how much longer it’ll last me. I’ve fallen in love with it though and I really hope I won’t have to replace it anytime soon.
This is ironic, considering that you live out of a backpack! Honestly though, there are alternatives, but that's the problem with luxuries: once we have been spoiled, human pyschology makes it difficult to accept "less." We tend to describe things we want as things we "need." It seems that many Apple power users, myself included, tend to be perfectionists when it comes to computers. Unlike the rest of the population — the majority of whom don't live out of a backpack and can not justify the cost of Apple products (with the possible exception of an iPhone) — "good enough" just doesn't cut it.
Depending upon what you're using your computer for, you could have a "good enough" setup with just about anything, though it would probably be less comfortable to you than what you have now. For light use, a Chromebook can be instantly set up, and they can be found all over the world. For heavier use, any Windows 10 laptop can sync settings to the cloud and, coupled with Chocolatey and WSL, it's possible to emulate your current workflow. MacBooks are fantastic machines and I believe they offer immense value but, if you feel trapped, it's because the adventurous spirit that has carried you across the world has yet to extend itself to your computing environment!
I used to use macbooks exclusively, but for the last 2 years or so I have switched mostly to windows 10 because of work, and I hate it more two years later than I did when I started using it.
I am truly trapped. I will buy another macbook, I can't help myself. Even now I can feel myself justifying their flaws in order to propel myself towards the next model. There is no escape.
I'm curious as to what you don't like about Windows 10. I'm in the opposite boat where I'm pretty fond of Windows but have to use a Mac at work and absolutely despise it. No quarter tiling, cmd-tab groups windows and has no option not to, the difference in shortcuts due to a non-standard keyboard, etc. Even the touchpad that everyone likes so much lacks several very basic features (such as triple tap to middle click) that can't be added without paying for a fix. The only things that are annoying about 10 are the spying and the forced updates in my experience. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
I like how you view this as a luxury and you’re right. But efficiency and near optimization are more virtuous luxuries, to me, than things I frequently think of like sugar or diamonds.
Having an efficient interface with which to work is really important to me. I suppose it’s a luxury to not have to wait 500ms between keystrokes in vim, but I want instantaneous response.
The MacBook touchpad is really useful and using another slows me down both physically as well as mentally since I know there’s a better option.
> More than once when faced with crossing an annoying border (TSA, sigh) I'd sell the Macbook at my origin and simply pickup a new one at the destination.
Wow! I've heard of this as a practice reserved for the ultra-paranoid, but never actually seen somebody who does it. What's your threat model? Do you have some reason to believe that the US three-letter-agencies might target you in particular? Are you famous in security circles?
Agreed. Apple makes the best consumer mobile computer hardware by far, repairability issues aside. The touchpad is originally what sold me on my first MacBook (2013 13" Retina) and it is still the feature I miss the most on other laptops.
I had kept repairability issue aside until I had to go for flash drive replacement of my 2012 13" MacBook Air recently.
Apple support (which is a 3rd party in my country) said ~$400 and local repair guys quotes like $350 or so. The new MBA (last year's) is available for ~800 here. Apparently I can't get any other brand's flash drive fit in there.
That laptop worked just fine (battery, screen all). I wish I can find a way to give it another year or two. Maybe boot from a memory card or so and leave it plugged all the time?
You can also boot off a Thunderbolt 2 or USB SSD drive for better performance. I duct-taped one to the back of my screen a few years ago when I didn’t have time to get a repair done.
Apple makes the best looking consumer computer hardware, but a Thinkpad destroys it in every department except the Trackpad. Keyboard (no contest), upgradability, RAM, ruggedness, even price.
I see people say that Thinkpads are more rugged than Macbooks and have to wonder what that opinion is based on. My own experience is that they're at least on par. (unless we're talking about the specifically-engineered "toughbook" style Thinkpads)
I've dropped my Macbook Air, open, from a standing height onto a tile floor (accidentally, obviously), and the only damage was a slightly bent corner of the lid. That was 3 years ago and I'm still using it every day. And my home beater is a 2008 Macbook Pro that I've dragged all over the world; the only failure so far has been a fan, which I replaced myself.
I've been impressed with the durability of MacBooks in the past, but sadly the "survives a fall from the top of a refrigerator without a scratch" feature has been superceded by "keyboard exposed to air, several keys stop working". They're way too flaky these days for the nice aluminum unibody to offset.
Looks like you get twice the ssd for the money and similar performance but you get a better screen on the apple. Of course you could of course spend more and get a model with a better screen as well.
1300 vs 700. Even if you get 25% resale value after 3 years and say 20% for the thinkpad you will have paid 975 vs 560 for the thinkpad.
I can find 2015 retina macbook pros with 1tb of storage that originally sold for 1800 for 600 at this point which is aprox 33% resale value after 3 years. This is only slighter higher than prior estimate. There also may be a transactional cost in moving it ebays cut + shipping OR a time cost/risk in selling it yourself via craigslist for cash. This is not counting the cost of refurbishing to make ready for sale for example replacing the battery. If you spend $30 shipping give ebay 50 and pay 80 for a battery and sell at 600 you may only net 440 or around 25%.
Here is an interesting analysis of why used macs may be worth more. Authors thesis seems to be that because apple lacks a low end and has a smaller pool of buyers there is more demand among cost conscious buyers. It also holds back in 2015 that used apple products are worth twice as much as other vendors products in the same portion of their lifecycle but seems to have hard numbers only for phones and from 2013 so not neccesarily relevant to present laptops.
I further hold that resale value is of negligable value to most uers who will either break a device, pass it on to a family member, lose it, or hold onto it until it is effectively of negligable resale value.
It would be disingenious to take maybe money into account when making a purchase unless you specifically plan to upgrade frequently and use the money from said sale to offset the cost of newer models.
For example one could spend 1800 then sell for half in 2 years and put it towards the next 1800 machine. One could spend not much more than 900 per year after the initial investment. So say over 10 one would have purchased 1 machine at 1800 at year zero one for 900 each at year 2 4 6 8 for an average cost per year 540 per year.
Of course people are vastly more likely to say purchase for 500-900 and use for 3-5 years then rinse repeat for a cost of 100-300 per year.
I don't think the trackpad is uniquely good on MacBooks. What I miss after switching however is BetterTouchTool. That supercharged what was a trackpad basically only used for scroll and single/right clicks to something awesome.
I wonder when he switches back in a year whether the time will feel like a worthwhile investment or just happy to have really showed them and their Touch Bar.
Usually when people set me up for high expectations, I end up getting disappointed. In the case of the Macbook touchpad, my expecations were actually exceeded. I use Bootcamp a lot for some of my projects, and the touchpad support in Windows is so bad, I can't wait to go back to Mac Os (other than that, I'm pretty much OS agnostic).
There's now a 3rd party precision touchpad driver that works surprisingly well for MacBooks. Unfortunately it's CPU-bound and high CPU load can cause the touchpad to be unresponsive. Setting CPU affinity to high partially mitigates the problem though
It would also be amazing to have a linux distro that has excellent, first-class support for recent Apple computers. No such thing has existed for years. It’s terrible that we are all trusting closed-source FileVault.
Interesting that touchpad problems affect _many_ users, it's been a source of pain and complaints for many years and the community can't throw together e.g. $100k to pay a dev to develop a good enough driver.
The touchpad experience of the Mac is where vertical integration really shines. The touchpad is so good precisely because there are not hundreds of hardware variants to support. Just the one that Apple used in their past X years of MacBooks (so never more than a hand-full). And they make their own OS and drivers.
Doing this for all laptops Linux could possibly run on is almost impossible. It’s a shame that touchpad (or laptop) vendors do not see good drivers as a competitive advantage. Sounds like a lot of people would buy a laptop just for its touchpad (though probably not enough to justify investment from manufacturers, so it seems).
There cannot be THAT many different touch pads or drivers for them out there that this is impossible. I bet there are only three or four types of main brands at most which probably all come from the same factory in China.
It’s not like every time a new pc laptop comes out the dell and HP folks say: “Yee haw! Roll up yer sleeves boys, it’s time to write another touchpad driver!” That’s just insanity.
Not knowing how any of this works, I think best would be having a driver that translates the raw signals into an intermediate, near-native form, i.e. basically provide a standard range X-Y-Z vector (z for Pointer intensity) with good enough (very high) resolution per touch point. Single-Touch devices will only ever get one touch point, those that have no concept of intensity will have a constant or binary Z value. Those measuring pointer-size can set the Z-value accordingly (that‘s how I think intensity is measured anyway).
Then allow per-device configs with (basically) calibration curves. Allow for different kinds of curves (discrete value interpolation, Bezier, you name it). This enables the driver to support a lot of different devices. Bonus points if the driver can tell the firmware about the calibrations (I‘d bet quite a few touchpads have their own logic built-in).
Also the driver must support some curve and noise dampening as well as progressive acceleration (basically inflating calibrated numbers with higher speed of moving touch points and rapid succession of the same gesture) and thus also understand some „higher level“ gesture logic, e.g. to properly support the right feeling for touchpad scrolling as Macs do.
It would be enough to have excellent touchpad support on one model (or chipset). We could just buy that one. At least the old Linux users were once used to buy hardware that matches their OS.
I've wanted to do this as well. I came to the conclusion that you'll need to bypass the X windows input system and read the device directly, none of the current solutions (like libinput, mtrack, or synaptics) would work satisfactorily. And integrating it with Gtk or Qt will never work well because of the structure imposed by those frameworks (Cocoa/ObjC is a much more flexible framework)
I was able to write a prototype version of things like a tableview or image viewer that gets input directly from the touchpad device (that draws straight to an OpenGL texture or pixmap). The problem is that you'll never be able to integrate this with Gtk and Qt, it just doesn't fit together. And working within those two frameworks is kind of hell. Generally, gestures are not discrete, you can go halfway through a gesture and change your mind, but you'll still get graphical feedback from the UI. That's part of the joy of using the touchpad. But it's just easier to write it from scratch than to add it to Gtk or Qt.
For me personally, it's not a huge problem because I generally avoid Gtk and Qt apps if at all possible and make my own UI's, but I don't see it gaining widespread adoption so I don't know if it's worth the effort.
Are the Linux touchpad drivers developed apart, or together with other input methods, like touch (e.g. KDE Plasma)?
How is the state of touch on desktop Linux, does it work fluidly? If yes, the drivers that handle touch might be usable to improve touchpad performance.
It's been a year now I've switched from mac to linux. Using libinput-gestures[0] was quite nice, but eventually I changed by workflow to use keyboard shortcuts more.
I've also installed libinput-gestures and I'm using it in a GNOME 3.28.2 Xorg session (with "natural" scrolling disabled) on a MBP 11,1 with the configuration below. I feel this is pretty close to a macOS experience.
# Move to next/prev workspace
gesture swipe down 4 _internal ws_up
gesture swipe up 4 _internal ws_down
# Browser go forward/back
gesture swipe right xdotool key alt+Right
gesture swipe left xdotool key alt+Left
# Toggle Activities overview
gesture swipe up 3 xdotool key super+s
gesture swipe down 3 xdotool key super+s
# Zoom in/out (works in e.g. Firefox, Chromium, Terminal)
Its super basic and doesnt have all the features I want it to yet cuz of time. It works well enough though and doesnt need to do any work on the actual drivers to function.
If you switch to Tridactyl [1], our buggier, less popular, and less user friendly competitor to Vimium, you can pass hints CSS selectors.
E.g, `hint -c a+a+a` only highlights comments on the HN homepage (and every third link in a row on other pages). I have it bound with `bind ;c hint -c [class*="expand"],[class="togg"],a+a+a` which also lets me toggle comments on HN and reddit.
Is the touchpad driver in the macOS kernel? If yes, the kernel itself is open source, would it be crazy to try to extract the driver from there and make it Linux compatible?
Other question: When are you actually using the touchpad? I use my notebook 99% of the time with a screen + keyboard/mouse.
Next question: Can we get to the level of a Macbook touchpad only with software? Is there no magic sauce inside the hardware itself? How does the touchpad feel when installing Windows or Linux on the Mac?
I can only speak for myself. But in now 7 years I never connected a keyboard or mouse to my 2011 MBA. It's keyboard+Touchpad is just so good that I don't need it. Even when I connect to an external display.
I'd say no. In my experience other Companies aren't even able to recreate the smooth surface + 'clicking feel' of the Apple touchpad, which is what I value the most. I suspect that they can, but aren't legally allowed due to patterns.
I tried running Linux and Windows on a 2009 MacBook. Touchpad felt crap compared to on OS X. Pretty sure the Windows experience was better than the Linux one, though.
So software is certainly a part of it.
Edit: This is just considering basic movement of the cursor.
AFAIK macbook's keyboard and touchpad has a dedicated chip to handle user interactions and is possibly part of the firmware. This explains why it works on Apple EFI level and it works smoothly even on high CPU load.
I use a 1st gen "Magic Trackpad" that works great with my hackintosh. Maybe there's special hardware in a MacBook, but the OS seems to be able to work without it.
I salvaged a 2010-model MacBook Pro trackpad, soldered on some USB wires, and made it external. I was actually more interested in the keyboard, but discovered that I needed both because the USB controller is on the trackpad.
Yes, please do! I've spent some time researching this as well, and to me it seems like the author has missed one thing; the Mac touchpad hardware is so much better than other touchpad hardware. (As I understand it, the competition is barred from making similar touchpads due to patents)
I have been running Linux on MacBook Pros for many years, and the touchpad is a constant source of disappointment. For the effort to be worthwhile to me, the goal would have to include getting Apple's touchpads working excellently in Linux.
I would definitely participate in crowdfunding this effort. (Kickstarter or otherwise)
If you're looking for a large touchpad, you don't have to look any further than the HP Spectre x360, which has a touchpad literally the size of a modestly-sized smartphone.
I said this in a previous thread, but I'm surprised that Microsoft haven't jumped on the developer bandwagon after the MBP fallout.
I'd put the Surface Book as ahead of current gen MBP's. The trackpad isn't as good, but that's probably because it's a bit smaller and I like the large track pad. In terms of responsiveness, it's just as good.
The only thing missing is native Linux support, which is why a lot of people on here seem to support the WSL on Windows as an option over just installing Linux on the Surface Book. If Microsoft were to come out and say "Here's the new Surface Book, available in Windows 10 and Linux flavours" I could see a huge shift away from the MBP as the de-facto developer device.
Of course, given how fragmented Microsoft are as a company, I can't see their product team coming together to make this a reality, but a developer can dream.
Have you used an Apple trackpad though? Because they genuinely are light years ahead of the competition. Why wouldn't they patent everything around that?
What do they do that is different? I had a Mac from 2013 with Ubuntu installed. I didn't notice anything different other than a lack of way to emulate a third button.
So what is different? You still didn't answer that. Every time I tried a mac the scroll was upside down and it annoyed me. Now windows seems to have adopted that.
I'm not sure it's IP that's kept Wintel makers from doing decent trackpads. I think they just didn't care until recently.
I have both a 2015 13" rMBP and a 2018 Dell XPS15 on my desk. The Dell's hardware is really fantastic. Overall, it's not QUITE the equal of Cupertino, but it's easily the best Windows hardware I've seen since the glory days of the ThinkPad. The trackpad in particular, though, is just as good as the Apple one, I think. First time I've seen a Windows trackpad that was worth a damn, so I was SHOCKED.
the xps are some damn fine machines. we give them to c-levels here and i'm always super excited to work with them and super jealous when i have to give them away.
I really kinda wonder how viable desktop Linux would be for me on this hardware.
I mean, I think the answer FOR ME is probably still "not yet," given the things that I enjoy about doing most of my computing in the Mac ecosystem, but historically the barriers for me have been twofold: hardware AND software. I suspect the Dell solves the hardware problem.
A cheap mouse allows finer and faster control than the best touchpad that currently exists, so... I plug in a mouse. (Don't believe me? Play an FPS game with touchpad against a mouse user.)
That said, Synaptics touchpad support on Linux is bad. In my case, it's the touchpad on a Thinkpad T440s. It can run in a legacy/standard protocol mode or a "modern" protocol mode. Linux supposedly supports the latter (where palm detection should work) since a few years, but I don't see it being used or palm detection working.
The macbook touchpad is so good that after a few months of practice, I routinely used to top the leaderboard in cod4 hardcore free for all using double tap to aim down the sight, shoot with index finger and aim with middle finger. I even got good at quickscoping with the Barrett 50 Cal, again using only the macbook touchpad. Even mile high club on veteran was not out of reach
Item 1: It's undeniable that the mouse is more precise, but it tethers you to a desk. One with enough space for a mouse. Not always feasible.
Item 2: You're mentioning Thinkpads. Try a touchpad on OS X, then come back. The difference is enormous. You can actually use the GUI without a mouse and without being annoyed, it's the only laptop/OS combination where that works.
Every time I use my gf's Mac I am instantly annoyed by the touchpad. Yeah, it's better than the one on my Thinkpad but there I use the nipple which is faster, more precise and quicker to reach also I can scroll around using a button under my thump + nipple. Mac lacking page-up/page-down keys is annoying if you need to do a lot of scrolling/coming back to keyboard/scrolling.
> Item 2: You're mentioning Thinkpads. Try a touchpad on OS X, then come back. The difference is enormous. You can actually use the GUI without a mouse and without being annoyed, it's the only laptop/OS combination where that works.
Firstly, there is a difference in feel between touchpads on different macbooks. I loved the one on my old Air, whereas the current touchpads on Pros don't really feel right to me. Maybe that's why I am not disappointed by Thinkpads? Drivers are not as good, but calling Lenovo's touchpads unusable would be an exaggeration.
Not sure what model ThinkPad you had, but I was on a MBP 2013 and just recently transitioned to a ThinkPad T480 running Ubuntu. The trackpad is actually really nice on the T480 and I didn't have to do any special driver install to get that working. Scrolling is slightly smoother on the MBP, but honestly that is not a huge deal. (I think this is mostly due to the material of the T480 trackpad having more grip that anything else)
For sure the materials used on the MBP are of higher quality and if I had one complaint it would be that smudging on the T480 trackpad is noticeable where it is not on the MBP. With that said, if you are running a modern distro that has proper driver support then I think the trackpad on the T480 works really well and you will not find the difference to be "enormous".
IIRC I looked basically everywhere. I certainly did try to enable palm detection. The attempt I best remember was using some special synaptics settings GUIs (IIRC one standalone app and KDE synaptics settings). I touched xorg.conf for another purpose, configuring left / mid / right button zones. Right now, the T440s trackpad is configured for clicks and two-finger scrolling only because having movement enabled is a major nuisance without palm detection.
There's no need for this pointless one-upping. Nobody who uses touchpad will say it's more precise/faster than a mouse. And when did anyone proclaim touchpad is great for games?
I love the touchpad because it feels better and natural to me, and gestures make doing tasks like switching between desktops feel great, like I'm literally sliding papers on my desk. Lastly, not having to bring another device with me everywhere makes it a no brainer for me.
The quality of the touchpad combined with the gesture support is a very good experience. The touchpad is very precise (obviously not as precise, but I don’t need that for work), and there’s nothing I struggle to do at all when I’m working with it. If I’m not at my desk with my extra monitors, then I prefer the touchpad. Especially if I’m working across multiple documents/windows where I can swipe between workspaces very easily.
There are very few applications which require the speed and precision of FPS games. Mostly, just FPS games. And I don't want to have to carry around another thing that could possibly get lost and take up space in my bag.
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[ 12.3 ms ] story [ 783 ms ] threadI thought these were mostly programmers, but I cannot picture a programmer using a touchpad instead of a mouse.
Why not?
Why would you use a mouse if you're on a laptop? Especially a macbook, where the trackpad is fantastic to use and offers gestures which give you features you don't get with a mouse.
Why wouldn't you use a mouse, and get better precision, a standard form-factor, and universally solid drivers? Besides, you can take your mouse and plug it into any machine you need to work on.
Most non-Mac-users do. Mac users don't, because they have a touchpad with better precision, a standard form factor and solid drivers. Hence this post. Why should I need to carry a peripheral everywhere for functionality my laptop purportedly has integrated?
One could counter-argue that touchpad is inherently worse than a mouse, but I think you'll find Apple have roundly disproven that. There's a reason the Magic Trackpad exists (though I've never owned one, demand seems to be there).
For most use cases pointing devices makes you less productive than using a keyboard. Going forth and back between keyboard and a pointing device is even worse.
Spend the time to optimize your workflow to be pointer-free as much as you can and you'll never go back.
I don't really use the touchpad part though---I use the "track-point" pointing stick embedded in the center of the keyboard. Without that, I feel like I was transported back in time and placed in front of a VT220 terminal or some dusty old Sun workstation. I am concerned that these seem discontinued, but I also have spare travel-sized units which may last for the rest of my career...
I have one on the Dell laptop I'm using (which also has a touchpad). Once in a while I try to use it, but I find it almost impossible control with any kind of precision. Changing the sensitivity doesn't help much.
I first tried that device on the first Thinkpads that had it, back in the 90's or whenever it was. I have always had the same reaction to it.
How do you use it? Is this just a matter of getting used to it, and if it is, how long does it take?
I am in the market for a new laptop, so perhaps I should give them a chance. Not really for the pointers, but they do seem to be fine laptops overall.
On my own Lenovo, I use the nipple exclusively, and touchpad is disabled completely. I had played Quake vs other human players with the nipple and won, and I find it vastly superior to any kind of touchpad.
I'm not a classic touch typist, but my fingers tend to be near the home row most of the time, having the pointing device one or two keys away, and the mouse buttons next to space, is a big benefit. Having to shift my left hand to the left, and right hand down 3", just to move the pointer, feels like a lot of effort.
I use point-to-focus (but not raise) a fair bit too, as moving the mouse is almost as easy as alt-tab, I use it a lot to switch between terminal windows.
That's completely immaterial to the precision of it, which is why I'm unable to use it: I never managed to aim at something, I take ages to actually reach a button to click on it (either under- or over-shooting it unless I move the cursor extremely slowly) let alone select some characters in the middle of text.
I have that issue on neither trackpad nor mouse, and can use both reliably precisely.
I actually just used the touchpad on said laptop with my thumb, to move the arrow to the 'reply' button (I have an inbuilt distrust of tab on websites). And now I used the trackpoint to resize the text box to read my reply, again without thinking about it.
I suspect that when I'm in "doing" mode I use the trackpoint, when I'm in "consuming" mode I use the pad.
I'd pay significantly more over already inflated Apple prices to have my MBP with a trackpoint and no touchpad.
No, I was not. Go back and actually read my comment, I very specifically talked about myself and my precision using a trackpoint. In support of lokedhs professing to the same. And as an expression of the uselessness and irrelevance of isostatic's comment answering a question nobody'd asked.
But as usual the trackpoint zealots can't even take an expression of personal issues as anything but a personal attack on their way of life. Ya folks are tiring.
To me that reads as though you are unable to use it because the device itself is imprecise. That some indeed do find it more precise would seem to exonerate the device. Personal preference, is a different can of worms. :)
No zealotry present at all, here at least.
It is a call back to lokedhs's original issue:
> Once in a while I try to use it, but I find it almost impossible control with any kind of precision. Changing the sensitivity doesn't help much.
which is what they were asking about when they wrote
> How do you use it? Is this just a matter of getting used to it, and if it is, how long does it take?
right afterwards, not "what finger are you using" (the index of the dominant hand would certainly be the obvious choice to just about anyone).
Now maybe I could get better at the precision piece for trackpoint overtime, but if you use trackpoint you also lose the ability to do multi-touch (two finger) scrolling, which I think is a huge time saver, b/c you can scroll without having to find the scroll bar and/or moving your hand over to the arrow/page keys.
I wish that they made a full size version of it - I miss the extra keys.
Macbook took a couple months of adjustment. But there is almost no use of muscle whatsoever when moving the mouse on a macbook. Thinkpads feel incredibly straining in comparison now. And scrolling on a macbook...completely effortless. There is nothing like it.
These days, I still have a Lenovo X200 for Linux and still use the pointer there although I'm generally happy with trackpads across the board. (Except on Windows apparently. I had to get a mouse for my 17" Alienware laptop because the trackpad still drove me crazy.)
for casual use a touch pad is better and for gaming a mouse is better.
Having said that, this is the beauty of Linux, let people use what they like, being devices or window managers.
My X220 nipple unfortunately became a little unreliable. Needs calibration often (auto moving cursor) and sometimes one direction works better than others. It's annoying, especially since the touchpad is just unusable.
Any suggestions? Hardware or software issue? Would a new rubber nipple hood thingy help?
It works with strain gauges[1]. Thats why you can control the speed of the pointer, not just the direction. When you get used to it, its quite effective.
You can pull the rubber nub off and try it, that shouldn't help but it might. If its sticking in a position that isn't "Neutral"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick
Oddly IBM made a mouse with that nub pointer thing. It worked so much better that any sort of wheel for pointing and scrolling, but I left it when I left IBM many many moons ago.
The nipple on every other manufacturer I have tried isn't even usable. The nipple on the Thinkpad is god like. I used to hear of designers prefer it for Photoshop editing back in the days before Lenovo.
That said, I am using a MacBook Pro now with macOS and have been for years because I tend to spend way too much time tinkering to get things perfect.
Having said that, before libinput I was ready to return my laptop, because the palm rejection was so horrendous with synaptics.
Everybody should be doing this yesterday, it's one of the most obviously good things going.
Do you find the original scrolling mechanism, or the reversed scrolling mechanism, to be "just right"?
They fixed it, so now it is indeed “just right”.
You can reverse the scroll direction on Windows with a PowerShell command:
https://superuser.com/questions/310681/inverting-direction-o...
Either way, one method is "the original one", the other method is the opposite, or reversed, from the original method.
But the default Apple 'moving the document' setting is extremely consistent with the rest of the trackpad. When you use one finger you move the cursor, not the viewport relative to the cursor. Why would it be different with two fingers?
For me, I hate the "natural" scrolling, because I map scrolling motions to "up" and "down". Moving my fingers downward should do what I think of as "down", which is to see what's below my current screen. I have an XPS 15 with the touchscreen, and only when you're actually touching the screen does "down moves the document down (and goes up toward the top)" make sense.
Fingers go up, viewport goes up, as with a scroll wheel. Neither is reversed, they're just different interpretations of the action.
> That’s wrong as anyone who has used a phone or tablet can tell you.
Nonsense. With a phone or tablet, you're manipulating the content itself, directly. Not so with a trackpad or mouse. The display is not under my trackpad.
The original direction made some sense when transitioning from mice with scroll wheels. (Though it is debatable whether the mouse wheel's direction was ever right.)
The current "reversed" direction makes more sense in an era of iPads, smartphones and touch screens.
I can’t tell if you’re referring to the present default scroll behavior or that which was default several years ago. Given that this can be changed in the System Preferences app, it’s a non-argument. It can be set to scroll in either direction.
All that said, I’ve been tremendously disappointed with the new HP laptop touchpad at my current employer. My MBA gets it so right that every shortcoming of the HP is obvious. It requires far more effort to be accurate.
I cannot find anything comparable in terms of size/weight/battery and build quality. Especially the trackpad, nothing is remotely close. Otherwise I'd get that and put Arch on it.
People complain Apple is expensive, not so sure. The TCO may actually be less because of the high resale value. It is also more convenient.
More than once when faced with crossing an annoying border (TSA, sigh) I'd sell the Macbook at my origin and simply pickup a new one at the destination. Thirty minutes in-and-out of the Apple store, they all seem to have exceptionally fast wifi, and setup handled via a curl-to-bash of mine gets me exactly back to where I started, down to the sessions..
Since my points of origin usually have higher Apple prices due to currency/taxes, I end up accidentally eking out a profit after months of use per machine.
If you can't be arsed with the above consider this: Their retail global presence is getting to be quite complete, even coming to Samsung land (Seoul, behold: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt4ldH5vQCQ) and Tel Aviv finally along with some others. Most big airport hub cities will have an Apple store close by.
Stuff gets broken or stolen and yet with this setup I'm generally never 24 hours away from my exact laptop setup...
There is no alternative. I feel trapped.
Now, if all your files live in the cloud, and you have your setup automated completely, why not?
While we’re here, let me just add another little form of “geographic advantage” (?) to the mix: you all know cmd-‘ pages through windows of the same application. On a US layout ‘ is right up next to tab, which makes it extremely convenient to remember the mnemonics of cmd-‘ and cmd-tab. In US intl ‘ is shoved down next to lshift, and the premium key top of tab is the useless §.
Why? Apple, why?!
If your expected adversary is a nation-state intelligence agency, what do you expect to do? Take your laptop with you everywhere you go, all the time? Leave in your apartment for a theoretical attacker to execute an evil maid attack on it?
FDE is highly useful against ordinary adversaries. People with the financial/staffing/training resources to run surveillance on you 24x7 and access your equipment while it's unattended, that's an entirely other ball game.
Take for example China. There are plenty of rumours about business executives taking throw-away electronics while crossing the border or how China installs some random software on people's devices when crossing a border neighbouring a certain province[1]
FDE can also lead to increased suspicion when crossing a border and refusal to unlock the system can pretty much lead to a denial of entry or, worse, detention. FDE also doesn't help in cases when a random border crossing can require installing a malicious boot-loader or a persistent malware somewhere in the system.
In the China story, they might not be installing a persistent bootloader but there's nothing really stopping them from doing that.
Honestly, in certain cases (and I'd rather say, a lot of cases) it's just easier to have no device than deal with what they did to your device after the fact or just sell the device after entering if you are suspicious of it.
[1] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ne94dg/jingwang-a...
For instance a TSA screener is not going to have access to the latest and greatest because information about it gets leaked people will take counter measures.
With a small laptop, this is a very small problem.
>Leave in your apartment for a theoretical attacker to execute an evil maid attack on it?
Security cameras?
With very basic training anyone can maintain good physical opsec, the much harder part is keeping your software secure.
TPM + FDE?
Telling the hands of the government that they don't have the authority seems like a very fast ticket to a very inconvenient travel delay. There's almost certainly some rule or administrative thing where they Can Get Away With pretty much what they say you can, and then you're stuck finding a lawyer.
I'd also like to know more about your config restoration process. Is it literally just running your script? What other things does it do?
My process is fairly streamlined as is, with most things except software installs done automatically. But I'm always on the lookout for improvements.
What kind of details are you looking for? I unbox at the Apple store and:
- Temporarily turn off Spotlight & Time Machine (Permanently) because it helpfully tries to index everything and tinker with a handful of system preferences while a memorized curl|bash runs
Mostly appearance related. This can also be automated but doesn't seem worth it as it only takes a minute. I don't use iCloud.
- Selective sync with Dropbox (which was just installed for me), mostly for the 1Password folder, while the rest of the script runs. Read HN or better yet about the new surroundings.
- Manually run software update and reboot into my now familiar machine
- Turn spotlight back on
I do forget to remap the esc key each time I do this, or the name of the thingie that helps you do that, that's about the only noticeable difference between old and new machines.
I don't suppose it's Karabiner[1], is it? This is the one I'm most familiar with, as it's been around under a few names for a very long time.
If so, this is in `brew cask`[2], which I am assuming is somewhere in your script's mix.
1. https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/
2. https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-cask/blob/master/Casks/...
I've been an MBA user as well, for reference. I use the mousepad little to none though. Possibly (but I'm not sure, since I haven't tried) IBM had such capillary distribution to support the quite bizarre use case of selling and repurchasing a new machine every few months.
Sadly, the line is over, and this type of build is obsolete nowadays.
Btw if thinking of a X1C for Linux use, I'd skip the latest for now due to them changing how the sleep works and it having issues even with Windows (losing battery while sleeping). The fifth model is great though, if you're not looking for the 8th gen CPU and HDR screen.
I'm in the same boat, and I actually think the lack of serviceability is a feature. On the x220 you can change the disk, the memory and the keyboard just by unscrewing a few screws. On newer laptops, including the whole Thinkpad line, you'll eventually end up breaking little pieces of plastic involved in holding the bottom of the machines, regardless of how much care you take, using the right tools etc...
Especially considering that the gain is to be thin, which really doesn't add much to laptop. If you're restricted for space, then the width is the key factor (try to use anything bigger than a 13 inch on an airplane!). "Thin" seems to be a pissing contest between laptop manufacturers, which the marketing departments then took care of convincing buyers that it was an important feature.
It wasn't noticeably different to my R50 a long time ago.
Setting up my mac can be a matter of days and I hate it.
This data compresses quite well and gets you all the hidden and extra attributes an rsync might miss. That would be my unix-y approach.
Homebrew has an app that can also handle installing Mac App Store apps. It also handles installation of third party fonts.
You then download and activate your dotfiles, copy over your data, and that's it.
For sessions, I guess a download of a recent cloud sync of your last tmux state for iTerm2 would do it (haven't tried).
Setting up my mac is a matter of letting things run overnight mostly (the rsync primarily).
Then chsh to zsh and log in/out and bam, back in business. I put all my apps in ~/Applications as well or as often as I can. I think screen flow is the only app that I need to install, but that is a bit of a one off and not often used so no big deal.
True story: we were robbed in 2012, in a quickie smash-and-grab through a rear patio (glass) door. They were in and out in maybe 1 minute, and took only what they could see from the yard -- which included my Macbook Pro.
We're well insured, so I went and got a new one the next day, plugged it into my Time Machine drive, and went and had lunch. When I came back, my new machine was ready to go -- all my apps, all my data, and even all my app windows were restored.
Arch on a macbook is a great experience
well, it's usually just an `apt install` or `pacman -S` away. I don't think that distros are optimized for laptop use cases.
That said, some popular distros do offer laptop modes during install. Off the top of my head, I think Ubuntu and Gentoo do.
What about the trackpad though? Of course the hardware feel is the same and great, but it doesn't move quite right, like it does with macOS, or you would with a mouse.
This is ironic, considering that you live out of a backpack! Honestly though, there are alternatives, but that's the problem with luxuries: once we have been spoiled, human pyschology makes it difficult to accept "less." We tend to describe things we want as things we "need." It seems that many Apple power users, myself included, tend to be perfectionists when it comes to computers. Unlike the rest of the population — the majority of whom don't live out of a backpack and can not justify the cost of Apple products (with the possible exception of an iPhone) — "good enough" just doesn't cut it.
Depending upon what you're using your computer for, you could have a "good enough" setup with just about anything, though it would probably be less comfortable to you than what you have now. For light use, a Chromebook can be instantly set up, and they can be found all over the world. For heavier use, any Windows 10 laptop can sync settings to the cloud and, coupled with Chocolatey and WSL, it's possible to emulate your current workflow. MacBooks are fantastic machines and I believe they offer immense value but, if you feel trapped, it's because the adventurous spirit that has carried you across the world has yet to extend itself to your computing environment!
I am truly trapped. I will buy another macbook, I can't help myself. Even now I can feel myself justifying their flaws in order to propel myself towards the next model. There is no escape.
Having an efficient interface with which to work is really important to me. I suppose it’s a luxury to not have to wait 500ms between keystrokes in vim, but I want instantaneous response.
The MacBook touchpad is really useful and using another slows me down both physically as well as mentally since I know there’s a better option.
Entering country: buy Macbook and SSD/RAM.
Leaving country: remove/hammer old SSD/RAM, install new, and sell.
Wow! I've heard of this as a practice reserved for the ultra-paranoid, but never actually seen somebody who does it. What's your threat model? Do you have some reason to believe that the US three-letter-agencies might target you in particular? Are you famous in security circles?
Apple support (which is a 3rd party in my country) said ~$400 and local repair guys quotes like $350 or so. The new MBA (last year's) is available for ~800 here. Apparently I can't get any other brand's flash drive fit in there.
That laptop worked just fine (battery, screen all). I wish I can find a way to give it another year or two. Maybe boot from a memory card or so and leave it plugged all the time?
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/ssd/owc/macbook-air/2012
Just replaced the internal SSD on a 2012 MBA myself - works great now :)
I've dropped my Macbook Air, open, from a standing height onto a tile floor (accidentally, obviously), and the only damage was a slightly bent corner of the lid. That was 3 years ago and I'm still using it every day. And my home beater is a 2008 Macbook Pro that I've dragged all over the world; the only failure so far has been a fan, which I replaced myself.
- All (newish) thinkpads having spill-resistant keyboards.
- The best-selling ones (X & T series) meeting the Mil-SPEC 810G standard.
I use a Mac though, because I got tired of fighting to get Linux properly running on my thinkpad
edit:format
Wow. I'd love to know more about that.
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/ideapad-700-ser...
Looks like you get twice the ssd for the money and similar performance but you get a better screen on the apple. Of course you could of course spend more and get a model with a better screen as well.
1300 vs 700. Even if you get 25% resale value after 3 years and say 20% for the thinkpad you will have paid 975 vs 560 for the thinkpad.
Here is an interesting analysis of why used macs may be worth more. Authors thesis seems to be that because apple lacks a low end and has a smaller pool of buyers there is more demand among cost conscious buyers. It also holds back in 2015 that used apple products are worth twice as much as other vendors products in the same portion of their lifecycle but seems to have hard numbers only for phones and from 2013 so not neccesarily relevant to present laptops.
https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/apple-tax-macs-hold-resale-val...
https://gizmodo.com/one-huge-reason-to-not-switch-to-android...
I further hold that resale value is of negligable value to most uers who will either break a device, pass it on to a family member, lose it, or hold onto it until it is effectively of negligable resale value.
It would be disingenious to take maybe money into account when making a purchase unless you specifically plan to upgrade frequently and use the money from said sale to offset the cost of newer models.
For example one could spend 1800 then sell for half in 2 years and put it towards the next 1800 machine. One could spend not much more than 900 per year after the initial investment. So say over 10 one would have purchased 1 machine at 1800 at year zero one for 900 each at year 2 4 6 8 for an average cost per year 540 per year.
Of course people are vastly more likely to say purchase for 500-900 and use for 3-5 years then rinse repeat for a cost of 100-300 per year.
could you explain this exactly? i browse hacker news casually and this part is a bit over my head
https://github.com/imbushuo/mac-precision-touchpad
I would donate to such an effort.
Doing this for all laptops Linux could possibly run on is almost impossible. It’s a shame that touchpad (or laptop) vendors do not see good drivers as a competitive advantage. Sounds like a lot of people would buy a laptop just for its touchpad (though probably not enough to justify investment from manufacturers, so it seems).
It’s not like every time a new pc laptop comes out the dell and HP folks say: “Yee haw! Roll up yer sleeves boys, it’s time to write another touchpad driver!” That’s just insanity.
Then allow per-device configs with (basically) calibration curves. Allow for different kinds of curves (discrete value interpolation, Bezier, you name it). This enables the driver to support a lot of different devices. Bonus points if the driver can tell the firmware about the calibrations (I‘d bet quite a few touchpads have their own logic built-in).
Also the driver must support some curve and noise dampening as well as progressive acceleration (basically inflating calibrated numbers with higher speed of moving touch points and rapid succession of the same gesture) and thus also understand some „higher level“ gesture logic, e.g. to properly support the right feeling for touchpad scrolling as Macs do.
Depending on the distribution, touchpads on Linux are between unusable and bad.
False touches are expecially annoying while you're typing a paper and you palm touches the border of the touchpad.
I often disable the touchpad completely, or at least while a key is being pressed, with a few milliseconds delay.
I was able to write a prototype version of things like a tableview or image viewer that gets input directly from the touchpad device (that draws straight to an OpenGL texture or pixmap). The problem is that you'll never be able to integrate this with Gtk and Qt, it just doesn't fit together. And working within those two frameworks is kind of hell. Generally, gestures are not discrete, you can go halfway through a gesture and change your mind, but you'll still get graphical feedback from the UI. That's part of the joy of using the touchpad. But it's just easier to write it from scratch than to add it to Gtk or Qt.
For me personally, it's not a huge problem because I generally avoid Gtk and Qt apps if at all possible and make my own UI's, but I don't see it gaining widespread adoption so I don't know if it's worth the effort.
How is the state of touch on desktop Linux, does it work fluidly? If yes, the drivers that handle touch might be usable to improve touchpad performance.
[0] https://github.com/bulletmark/libinput-gestures
# Move to next/prev workspace
gesture swipe down 4 _internal ws_up
gesture swipe up 4 _internal ws_down
# Browser go forward/back
gesture swipe right xdotool key alt+Right
gesture swipe left xdotool key alt+Left
# Toggle Activities overview
gesture swipe up 3 xdotool key super+s
gesture swipe down 3 xdotool key super+s
# Zoom in/out (works in e.g. Firefox, Chromium, Terminal)
gesture pinch in xdotool key ctrl+minus
gesture pinch out xdotool key ctrl+plus
Its super basic and doesnt have all the features I want it to yet cuz of time. It works well enough though and doesnt need to do any work on the actual drivers to function.
Then I would not need a pointing or scrolling device at ALL.
Which would be heaven.
It brings vim-like shortcuts to your browser. Despite what the Readme says, I find it perfectly usable on Firefox.
[0]: https://github.com/philc/vimium
https://imgur.com/a/7axkPSW
E.g, `hint -c a+a+a` only highlights comments on the HN homepage (and every third link in a row on other pages). I have it bound with `bind ;c hint -c [class*="expand"],[class="togg"],a+a+a` which also lets me toggle comments on HN and reddit.
[1]: https://github.com/cmcaine/tridactyl
Other question: When are you actually using the touchpad? I use my notebook 99% of the time with a screen + keyboard/mouse.
Next question: Can we get to the level of a Macbook touchpad only with software? Is there no magic sauce inside the hardware itself? How does the touchpad feel when installing Windows or Linux on the Mac?
I can only speak for myself. But in now 7 years I never connected a keyboard or mouse to my 2011 MBA. It's keyboard+Touchpad is just so good that I don't need it. Even when I connect to an external display.
I'd say no. In my experience other Companies aren't even able to recreate the smooth surface + 'clicking feel' of the Apple touchpad, which is what I value the most. I suspect that they can, but aren't legally allowed due to patterns.
So software is certainly a part of it.
Edit: This is just considering basic movement of the cursor.
https://hawkwood.com/archives/743
Here's a closeup of the chips:
https://hawkwood.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/IMG_3578.JPG
CY8C24794: Converts SPI to USB. [1]
SST 25WF020: 2 MBit serial flash memory. [2]
BCM5974: Multi-touch controller. [2]
TI CD3238: Driving IC. [3]
[1] https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/333175-macbook-pros-...
[2] https://appleinsider.com/articles/10/07/29/teardown_of_apple...
[3] https://www.semisrael.com/blogs/technology/ti-touch-screen-c...
I have been running Linux on MacBook Pros for many years, and the touchpad is a constant source of disappointment. For the effort to be worthwhile to me, the goal would have to include getting Apple's touchpads working excellently in Linux.
I would definitely participate in crowdfunding this effort. (Kickstarter or otherwise)
I'd put the Surface Book as ahead of current gen MBP's. The trackpad isn't as good, but that's probably because it's a bit smaller and I like the large track pad. In terms of responsiveness, it's just as good.
The only thing missing is native Linux support, which is why a lot of people on here seem to support the WSL on Windows as an option over just installing Linux on the Surface Book. If Microsoft were to come out and say "Here's the new Surface Book, available in Windows 10 and Linux flavours" I could see a huge shift away from the MBP as the de-facto developer device.
Of course, given how fragmented Microsoft are as a company, I can't see their product team coming together to make this a reality, but a developer can dream.
I'm unwilling to believe that Apple discovered the one and only way to make good Trackpad hardware.
so what you tried is what this thread is trying to fix
I have both a 2015 13" rMBP and a 2018 Dell XPS15 on my desk. The Dell's hardware is really fantastic. Overall, it's not QUITE the equal of Cupertino, but it's easily the best Windows hardware I've seen since the glory days of the ThinkPad. The trackpad in particular, though, is just as good as the Apple one, I think. First time I've seen a Windows trackpad that was worth a damn, so I was SHOCKED.
I mean, I think the answer FOR ME is probably still "not yet," given the things that I enjoy about doing most of my computing in the Mac ecosystem, but historically the barriers for me have been twofold: hardware AND software. I suspect the Dell solves the hardware problem.
That said, Synaptics touchpad support on Linux is bad. In my case, it's the touchpad on a Thinkpad T440s. It can run in a legacy/standard protocol mode or a "modern" protocol mode. Linux supposedly supports the latter (where palm detection should work) since a few years, but I don't see it being used or palm detection working.
Item 2: You're mentioning Thinkpads. Try a touchpad on OS X, then come back. The difference is enormous. You can actually use the GUI without a mouse and without being annoyed, it's the only laptop/OS combination where that works.
Also important:
begin document = cmd+up
end document = cmd+down
begin of line = cmd+left
end of line = cmd+right
Firstly, there is a difference in feel between touchpads on different macbooks. I loved the one on my old Air, whereas the current touchpads on Pros don't really feel right to me. Maybe that's why I am not disappointed by Thinkpads? Drivers are not as good, but calling Lenovo's touchpads unusable would be an exaggeration.
For sure the materials used on the MBP are of higher quality and if I had one complaint it would be that smudging on the T480 trackpad is noticeable where it is not on the MBP. With that said, if you are running a modern distro that has proper driver support then I think the trackpad on the T480 works really well and you will not find the difference to be "enormous".
Where did you look? Some of that stuff needs to be enabled manually via the synaptics CLI or via xorg.conf, e.g. on my system: https://github.com/majewsky/system-configuration/blob/fec4e0...
I'll try your configuration soon, too.
I love the touchpad because it feels better and natural to me, and gestures make doing tasks like switching between desktops feel great, like I'm literally sliding papers on my desk. Lastly, not having to bring another device with me everywhere makes it a no brainer for me.