"carrying along more than a liter or two of water is just plain realistic." Well if you say so!
Also, I hike a ton, many miles up many mountains. 3 liters really isn't that much weight at all, many camelbak style products support that volume, and will get you through a pretty long and arduous day. In my experience 12-15 miles in hot climates.
You lose between 1-2L/hr of moderate exercise. To stay fully hydrated and performing well, you would thus probably want to drink 5-10L ish on those hikes, leaning towards the high side if it's hot and arid.
You certainly can get by with less, but that's not the point.
You generally aren't cooling down through sweating alone, so those figures sound a little high. I can't really come up with anything that would make me drink 10L and still qualify as 'moderate exercise'.
1-2L/hr is ridiculous. No one would be able take any reasonable hikes without bringing a burrow with them. 15 mile hike is roughly 4-5hrs across rough terrain. I've done tons of of them without any signs of dehydration.
I mean, this is a funny troll, but I hope nobody actually packs 16 liters of water for a one day hike. This is a recipe for hyponatremia, a rare yet serious condition of too low blood sodium levels from overhydration.
I don't think most adults should need more than 3 liters of water for a day long hike if they are already properly hydrated. The idea is to hydrate for 24 hours before you exercise. Then during the exercise, you take small sips occasionally. After an hour, you may need to begin replacing lost electrolytes. You also want to drink more often at high elevation and in the cold.
You can actually check how much water you'll need during exercise. Weigh yourself, exercise for an hour, and weigh again. The lost weight is the water you lost and need to replenish.
In any case, you should be peeing every 2 to 4 hours. If the water is clear, you're hydrated. If the water is dark yellow, you're really not hydrated.
I mean sure, that's sort of a given. Are you suggesting you don't piss?
Maybe you just hike differently to what I assumed.
I do the occasional hike anywhere from 4-8 miles and I usually drink an extra 1-2L for the day - that's how I reckon I'd double my intake for a 12-15 mile hike.
I don't piss like a race horse, the hikes are in 95-105 degree weather, and I go at pace. To each their own.
I'm definitely not headed to the bathroom every half hour, like I would be if I drank 4 liters of water ever day. What exactly needs that much replenishing working at a computer in the air conditioning most of my day?
Military suggests roughly 4 liters for an active person, for an entire day. Even adding another liter for strenuous and in dry climates, that's far less than 8 liters.
4L of fluids, currently around 3L of water + 1L of milk.
If you're awake for around 16 hours, not sure why drinking an average of 500ml of fluids every 2 hours seems excessive to you. Or why drinking 1L of fluids every 2 hours (when your agenda for the day includes doing a 15 mile hike in hot weather) is considered a lot.
If what I've described above would make you go to the bathroom every 30 mins, perhaps see a doctor.
That's the point, you said double it. 8L is a ton of water, even when active. No one is carrying that much, even the military. 4L is excessive for a normal day not being active.
I appreciate the feedback, but perhaps don't tell me what to do.
I hike pretty often and unless it's extremely arid like in the desert, I'll usually just eat a bunch of fresh fruit and vegetables before setting off on a full day of hiking. It's far more pleasant to be unburdened by carrying things, and I'm more likely to mix in some trail running as well.
What I've found is I can pretty trivially go a full day without any food or water, even when doing physical activity. It's just important to not start out already dehydrated, and a last meal full of moisture with enough bulk to take some time to digest doesn't seem to hurt.
I'd be pretty god damn impressed if you can head out with nothing but fruit prior to an all day hike up a mountain. Especially in the middle of summer. That's some super human shit right there. Even if you could, you're providing yourself nothing in case of an emergency.
Appropriate emergency preparedness levels is something to evaluate on a case by case basis. There are definitely scenarios where I won't head out without more stuff.
But what I've found is day hikes in general where I'm expected back in civilization before dark don't require anything, and are a whole lot more enjoyable that way.
Recently I was surprised by a pair of trail runners out in joshua tree national park who had appeared out of nowhere at the end of a ~4-mile spur. It was a young fit couple carrying nothing with them at all, not even water, and were turning right around to run straight back with the intention of running another 8-mile loop before dark, according to our brief conversation.
They had done what my group of slow midwesterners carrying piles of food and water were taking all day to do in probably ~1 hour, simply by being unburdened and running it.
what time of year did that happen in Joshua Tree? I lived there for a while and that sounds like a death wish if it was hot - but a lot of the year the temperature is pretty nice.
This was late spring. It wasn't a hot day, but the aridity out there is too dehydrating for me, I always bring a water bottle hiking any distance in the desert. Just breathing in that environment dries me out.
Keep in mind it only takes around 30-40 minutes to run 4 miles, so they were looking at spending a little over an hour without water before getting back to their vehicle.
I regularly run a 4 mile loop near my property by JTNP, it's not that big a deal until summer arrives then I have to do it at or after dusk to not overheat.
It's much more dehydrating to go slow and spend all day out there, in my experience.
I've got a 5 acre parcel in Wonder Valley - nice to see someone else on HN from the area. I'm contemplating starting some sort of hacker community out there at some point, I think it's a great spot and one of the best areas in California for the price.
I'll move there permanently at some point, but for now I go out from Nov-Feb when the weather's nice (and fewer snakes). I still need to get a proper well drilled. I was living in a trailer out there which was great but it got vandalized, so my plan is to build something more permanent.
I think there's a ton of potential in the CA deserts. The low prices, relative proximity to LA, ability for people to work remotely, decreasing prices of solar - I'm predicting a boom out there in the next 2 decades. The 1950s homesteaders fled because it was too inhospitable, but technology seems to have changed that.
That's neat, my place is in Wonder Valley as well.
I agree for the most part with everything you've said about the area's potential future. There's too much property crime out there currently though, and things could easily get a lot worse as the population grows. Wonder Valley is a pretty fragile society currently. Much of the harmless residents are elderly and unless more people like us fill in the vacuum they'll leave behind it will probably go down the crapper quite fast. Personally I'm hoping the nascent artist community takes over, but it's going to take some serious luck and effort for a sustainable economy to emerge.
I understand the fast and light ethos; I have also read enough Accidents in North American Climbing reports to squarely assume my risk assessment abilities are not so dialed in that I can forgo basic safety preparations. So, yes - I bring some water and appropriate weather protection in case, for instance, that day hike doesn’t end by sundown (for whatever reason). I also tell someone where I intend to go and when I intend to be back. basics.
I'm all for ultralight, I get it. I travel the world with nothing but a carry on pack. I hike the Canadian Rockies with Inov8 shoes that weigh less than 250 grams. Not carrying water, and at least a little energy is dumb. The Osprey pack I carry is super light, holds 3 liters of water, and has enough pockets for essentials. Not everyone can, or wants to run up mountains. I've been hiking my entire life, and that is serious work to sustain that.
It's not really about how far you can run in a day, more if you can survive long enough with a broken ancle to get help.
In some climates that means having some form of basic shelter (wind sack, sleeping bag) so you won't die from exposure during the night, or due to a shift in the weather.
Any food you put in your body requires water to digest. If you can’t convert calories, your body will struggle to regulate core temp, so this is a danger in cold temps, not just heat.
Dehydration can impair judgement. If you get injured or lost with no way to get more water or food, you run a serious risk of dying, or at best requiring a very expensive rescue.
Experienced hikers have died mere hundreds of feet off trail [0], and that’s starting with food/water/gear/etc. If you are comfortable going an entire day without water, that is your prerogative, but to anyone looking to dabble in outdoor adventure, DO NOT attempt any hike without some kind of survival supplies. The cost/impact ratio is just ludicrous and should be a no-brainer.
Back in the 50's and 60's, the top Tour de France contenders would tell people not to eat or drink anything before or during a race, for fear that their stomach would start digestion and rob them of power. Several of them died on the tour essentially of exertion and dehydration.
Your body will not tell you when you are dehydrated until it is too late. Your mind can get clouded, you can get delusional, and then lost. You might try to wander around and an accident will happen. Or you might get really tired and decide to sit down and wait for someone to come by you. It's just stupid to go out for multi-hour hikes or runs in the wilderness without the essentials (such as water).
> Several of them died on the tour essentially of exertion and dehydration.
In case anyone was curious, four cyclists have died during the Tour de France. One drowned during a rest day (in 1910) and two crashed in different ways (in 1935 and 1995). The remaining cyclist died of heart failure on a hot day (in 1967), after mixing alcohol and amphetamines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Tom_Simpson
There's a difference between backpacking and hiking.
What I tend to see is people often preparing as if we're going backpacking for days just to hike 12 miles in a day, usually climbing up to some ridge from a beach then back down to the coast here around the SF bay area.
I'm not advising people stop preparing appropriately for the situation at hand, but it's worth noting that people tend to overpack and actually make it unnecessarily harder on themselves in the process. Increasing the likelihood of injury with the added load and altered center of gravity.
I used to carry way too much crap on the most trivial of hikes, because it was all crazy nature outdoorsy stuff. After getting more experienced, my actual requirements are much better calibrated to the task at hand.
The only advice I'd actually give newbies to the outdoors is to go with someone experienced and listen to what they recommend bringing.
Backpacking and hiking are different, true. And I’ll admit that on 1-2 hour trail runs I don’t bring water. But please consider that you are hiking in a place with optimal climate. A 12 mile hike in Colorado can take you through 3 seasons, and high enough to develop altitude sickness. I consider myself experienced, but I minimally still bring food, water, extra layers, sunscreen, sunglasses, a knife and a small first aid kit, and I use all of them every time except the first aid. My wife and I also carry two-way radios because sometimes I like to forge ahead. My pack comes in around 10 lbs during the summer.
At the end of the day I’m not even saying you’re wrong. We take calculated risks like not carrying water on a trail run, but they are still risks. Your original post came off like someone declaring a position of authority and ended stating an all day hike can be done without water. I just wanted to make sure people who saw that and might not know better saw another perspective.
"It may be hard to figure out where downhill is, when the land appears flat, but it still slopes downhill. If nothing else, it always slopes towards the ocean."
> According to the laws of physics, water always flows downhill. So if you’re looking for water, it only makes sense to flow the same way. No matter where you are, there’s always something downhill of you, unless you’re standing at sea level.
New Orleans, Death Valley, and a lot of other places would like to have a word with you.
I don't know why people are bothering to point this out.
All things considered, those places are very rare. Surely you're not saying people should disregard advice that's accurate 99.99% of the time because of a handful of counterexamples?
New Orleans and Death Valley are particularly silly examples because New Orleans is not wild in the sense of the article, and a person will almost certainly know when they're in Death Valley and be aware of its unique situation.
In a temperate woodlands environment (such as the eastern US), you will be able to get water by setting out a container and waiting for it to rain, which will likely happen before you die of dehydration. If that takes too long, then just wander around aimlessly for a bit and you'll find a stream that's at least intermittent if not permanent. You don't need a guide to find water because you can't get away from it.
The only reason to have a guide on how to find water is if a) you need a guide on how to find potable water (which this dismisses by saying "eh, you'll be filtering everything so any water is good enough" [1]), or b) you are in an arid or other similar environment where water is hard to find. In the later situation, endorheic basins are going to be substantially more common, and the problems with endorheic lakes as water sources are definitely worth mentioning.
[1] As others have noted, this isn't true. Water sources, particularly in endorheic basins, can be unacceptably concentrated in poisons such as agricultural runoff or arsenic, or too salty to drink.
I live in Colorado, and have little experience with the eastern US, but in large parts of the west you'll do much better searching for a stream than waiting for it to rain.
And it's good practice to filter all water from natural sources because parasites like giardia can be deadly.
> In a temperate woodlands environment (such as the eastern US), you will be able to get water by setting out a container and waiting for it to rain, which will likely happen before you die of dehydration.
What? I used to live in Bergen - and even there we'd see a full week without precipitation parts of the year. If you're out of water, I can't imagine there are many places in the world where "waiting rain" is the surest way to ensure hydration within the next 72 hours? Especially if you go hiking in periods of "good" weather.
Everything in gray is an area where simply following the current gradient of the land downwards will not lead you to the ocean. As you can see, this is a sizable chunk of the world.
The OP was making a snarky comment about New Orleans and Death Valley being below sea level. Believe it or not, even in an Endorheic basin, and even below sea level, water still flows down hill.
Honestly, I pointed it out because it's an article on survival, which is a serious topic, and in the first paragraph it's got misinformation. That's not a great start.
I place things like that just below "I'm a programmer but I'm going to treat this tech talk like I'm a stand up comedian, which means it'll be neither funny or informative."
Also fair. At that point, though, if someone's out of water and in a survival situation, and lights a fire in a cave like that, well... I'd be doubtful they've got the outdoor knowledge to hack it.
ABC’s, Airway, Breathing, Circulation. Having said that, it’s clear in context that survival needs referred to external factors such as food, water, shelter, and fire.
First, I have found water in the southern Utah slickrock desert by noticing a small area with flying insects. It was just a small pocket of water in a crack in the slickrock, but had I needed it, it could have saved my life.
Second, there are some places where "look for the green" can get you to water that you can't drink. In particular, in southern Utah, there are some springs that contain arsenic. Some plants will grow in that water, but there are no animal tracks leading to it. There aren't even insect larvae in it. Nice clean water isn't necessarily a good sign.
63 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 252 ms ] threadAlso, I hike a ton, many miles up many mountains. 3 liters really isn't that much weight at all, many camelbak style products support that volume, and will get you through a pretty long and arduous day. In my experience 12-15 miles in hot climates.
You certainly can get by with less, but that's not the point.
A lot of people drink out of habit, also a lot of drinks make you thirsty.
I don't think most adults should need more than 3 liters of water for a day long hike if they are already properly hydrated. The idea is to hydrate for 24 hours before you exercise. Then during the exercise, you take small sips occasionally. After an hour, you may need to begin replacing lost electrolytes. You also want to drink more often at high elevation and in the cold.
You can actually check how much water you'll need during exercise. Weigh yourself, exercise for an hour, and weigh again. The lost weight is the water you lost and need to replenish.
In any case, you should be peeing every 2 to 4 hours. If the water is clear, you're hydrated. If the water is dark yellow, you're really not hydrated.
Maybe you just hike differently to what I assumed.
I do the occasional hike anywhere from 4-8 miles and I usually drink an extra 1-2L for the day - that's how I reckon I'd double my intake for a 12-15 mile hike. I don't piss like a race horse, the hikes are in 95-105 degree weather, and I go at pace. To each their own.
https://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/fitness-and-nutrition/co...
Military suggests roughly 4 liters for an active person, for an entire day. Even adding another liter for strenuous and in dry climates, that's far less than 8 liters.
If you're awake for around 16 hours, not sure why drinking an average of 500ml of fluids every 2 hours seems excessive to you. Or why drinking 1L of fluids every 2 hours (when your agenda for the day includes doing a 15 mile hike in hot weather) is considered a lot.
If what I've described above would make you go to the bathroom every 30 mins, perhaps see a doctor.
I appreciate the feedback, but perhaps don't tell me what to do.
What I've found is I can pretty trivially go a full day without any food or water, even when doing physical activity. It's just important to not start out already dehydrated, and a last meal full of moisture with enough bulk to take some time to digest doesn't seem to hurt.
But what I've found is day hikes in general where I'm expected back in civilization before dark don't require anything, and are a whole lot more enjoyable that way.
Recently I was surprised by a pair of trail runners out in joshua tree national park who had appeared out of nowhere at the end of a ~4-mile spur. It was a young fit couple carrying nothing with them at all, not even water, and were turning right around to run straight back with the intention of running another 8-mile loop before dark, according to our brief conversation.
They had done what my group of slow midwesterners carrying piles of food and water were taking all day to do in probably ~1 hour, simply by being unburdened and running it.
Keep in mind it only takes around 30-40 minutes to run 4 miles, so they were looking at spending a little over an hour without water before getting back to their vehicle.
I regularly run a 4 mile loop near my property by JTNP, it's not that big a deal until summer arrives then I have to do it at or after dusk to not overheat.
It's much more dehydrating to go slow and spend all day out there, in my experience.
Are you living there full-time?
I think there's a ton of potential in the CA deserts. The low prices, relative proximity to LA, ability for people to work remotely, decreasing prices of solar - I'm predicting a boom out there in the next 2 decades. The 1950s homesteaders fled because it was too inhospitable, but technology seems to have changed that.
I agree for the most part with everything you've said about the area's potential future. There's too much property crime out there currently though, and things could easily get a lot worse as the population grows. Wonder Valley is a pretty fragile society currently. Much of the harmless residents are elderly and unless more people like us fill in the vacuum they'll leave behind it will probably go down the crapper quite fast. Personally I'm hoping the nascent artist community takes over, but it's going to take some serious luck and effort for a sustainable economy to emerge.
In some climates that means having some form of basic shelter (wind sack, sleeping bag) so you won't die from exposure during the night, or due to a shift in the weather.
Any food you put in your body requires water to digest. If you can’t convert calories, your body will struggle to regulate core temp, so this is a danger in cold temps, not just heat.
Dehydration can impair judgement. If you get injured or lost with no way to get more water or food, you run a serious risk of dying, or at best requiring a very expensive rescue.
Experienced hikers have died mere hundreds of feet off trail [0], and that’s starting with food/water/gear/etc. If you are comfortable going an entire day without water, that is your prerogative, but to anyone looking to dabble in outdoor adventure, DO NOT attempt any hike without some kind of survival supplies. The cost/impact ratio is just ludicrous and should be a no-brainer.
[0]: https://m.ranker.com/list/lost-hikers-near-civilization/jaco...
Back in the 50's and 60's, the top Tour de France contenders would tell people not to eat or drink anything before or during a race, for fear that their stomach would start digestion and rob them of power. Several of them died on the tour essentially of exertion and dehydration.
Your body will not tell you when you are dehydrated until it is too late. Your mind can get clouded, you can get delusional, and then lost. You might try to wander around and an accident will happen. Or you might get really tired and decide to sit down and wait for someone to come by you. It's just stupid to go out for multi-hour hikes or runs in the wilderness without the essentials (such as water).
In case anyone was curious, four cyclists have died during the Tour de France. One drowned during a rest day (in 1910) and two crashed in different ways (in 1935 and 1995). The remaining cyclist died of heart failure on a hot day (in 1967), after mixing alcohol and amphetamines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Tom_Simpson
What I tend to see is people often preparing as if we're going backpacking for days just to hike 12 miles in a day, usually climbing up to some ridge from a beach then back down to the coast here around the SF bay area.
I'm not advising people stop preparing appropriately for the situation at hand, but it's worth noting that people tend to overpack and actually make it unnecessarily harder on themselves in the process. Increasing the likelihood of injury with the added load and altered center of gravity.
I used to carry way too much crap on the most trivial of hikes, because it was all crazy nature outdoorsy stuff. After getting more experienced, my actual requirements are much better calibrated to the task at hand.
The only advice I'd actually give newbies to the outdoors is to go with someone experienced and listen to what they recommend bringing.
At the end of the day I’m not even saying you’re wrong. We take calculated risks like not carrying water on a trail run, but they are still risks. Your original post came off like someone declaring a position of authority and ended stating an all day hike can be done without water. I just wanted to make sure people who saw that and might not know better saw another perspective.
Happy trails!
Not always - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Basin
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badwater_Basin
New Orleans, Death Valley, and a lot of other places would like to have a word with you.
All things considered, those places are very rare. Surely you're not saying people should disregard advice that's accurate 99.99% of the time because of a handful of counterexamples?
New Orleans and Death Valley are particularly silly examples because New Orleans is not wild in the sense of the article, and a person will almost certainly know when they're in Death Valley and be aware of its unique situation.
The only reason to have a guide on how to find water is if a) you need a guide on how to find potable water (which this dismisses by saying "eh, you'll be filtering everything so any water is good enough" [1]), or b) you are in an arid or other similar environment where water is hard to find. In the later situation, endorheic basins are going to be substantially more common, and the problems with endorheic lakes as water sources are definitely worth mentioning.
[1] As others have noted, this isn't true. Water sources, particularly in endorheic basins, can be unacceptably concentrated in poisons such as agricultural runoff or arsenic, or too salty to drink.
And it's good practice to filter all water from natural sources because parasites like giardia can be deadly.
What? I used to live in Bergen - and even there we'd see a full week without precipitation parts of the year. If you're out of water, I can't imagine there are many places in the world where "waiting rain" is the surest way to ensure hydration within the next 72 hours? Especially if you go hiking in periods of "good" weather.
http://www.bergen.climatemps.com/precipitation.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorheic_basin#/media/File:Oc...
Everything in gray is an area where simply following the current gradient of the land downwards will not lead you to the ocean. As you can see, this is a sizable chunk of the world.
I place things like that just below "I'm a programmer but I'm going to treat this tech talk like I'm a stand up comedian, which means it'll be neither funny or informative."
Hmmm, I'd say oxygen supply in the blood is probably #2.
Maintaining core temperature is something you must actively manage, just as water intake is actively managed.
You can survive approximately: 3 minutes without oxygen, 3 hours of exposure (core temperature), 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food
Supposedly the special forces add to this "3 seconds after a bad decision."
Second, there are some places where "look for the green" can get you to water that you can't drink. In particular, in southern Utah, there are some springs that contain arsenic. Some plants will grow in that water, but there are no animal tracks leading to it. There aren't even insect larvae in it. Nice clean water isn't necessarily a good sign.
I don't know if this is the best blog to learn to survive from.