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> Missouri is a one-party consent state

There you have it- and a private car with a stranger driving is not a place with a reasonable expectation of privacy.

This is a non-story. Uber drivers near me have cameras, not for twitch, but just to protect themselves against unruly/lying passengers.

"without their consent" is a big difference from those "smile, you're on TV" security signs.
I think we can do without obvious troll usernames here, no matter how noteworthy your comments may be.
Excuse me, it's not a troll username. If you have something to add to the discussion, please do. Otherwise, is my username on topic?
Some videos are still up: https://www.twitch.tv/justsmurf/videos/all

Creepy as fuck to be honest

Most taxis have videos... just a matter of who watches it.

Is it less creepy if it's just some guy watching old surveillance videos if he works for a security company? Or the NSA? Because... well, look, if you find this creepy you'll just make yourself sad reading about what our government does.

I think “creepy” is one of the least interesting arguments someone can have. Plenty of things are creepy, and the word “creepy” itself falls into the same category as “offensive” or other very subjective accusations.

“Creepy” is not a good argument. What’s offensive to you is normal to me, what’s creepy to me is normal to you.

It is a violation of rights of people captured in the video. What is creepy for you is not very relevant here.
I want to understand why you think it's a violation of rights of people in the video. Because to me, it doesn't seem clear cut at all.

Is it a policy violation of Uber/Lyft? That doesn't seem like the case because there are other drivers that livestream uber rides.

Is it a violation of reasonable expectation to privacy when you're in someone else's vehicle? Because that's not necessarily a given, since you're in someone else's vehicle.

Is it because it's being live streamed and recorded on a site like twitch? Because it seems to me that if someone can legally record video, it's their copyright, and they can distribute it however they want to.

What am I missing?

Because I think that people have a right not to be secretly filmed let alone being published on the Internet. For me it seems a natural thing that doesn't need explanation.

> a violation of reasonable expectation to privacy

Probably. The customers expected that they just take a ride and are not being filmed. They don't expect that their face will be published on the Internet so that anyone can find their social network page and learn who they are.

> if someone can legally record video, it's their copyright, and they can distribute it however they want to.

It should not be this way. Wikipedia says that in some countries there are laws against this [1]. Of course, some laws could be written before Internet become popular so they need adaptation.

This article [2] also mentions that surveillance can be regulated by laws.

Finally, there are personality rights [3] although they are related to commercial activity.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_photography

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_rights

Thanks for replying.

I think there's a wide gulf between what people estimate their rights to be and their actual rights granted to them by law.

I understand your sentiment with not having your image spread throughout the internet without your permission, but asking for that right would break journalism.

I'd be up for a fix so long as it doesn't create criminals of both professional photographers and tourists livestreaming on times square, say.

Being allowed to record video (e.g. in a cab for security reasons) does not imply you can freely publish it. Copyright doesn't say anything about potential other rights of the people depicted - e.g. copyright of a photograph of a person doesn't imply you can freely use it for all purposes.

That said, in the US these rights are very weak compared to other countries, so this might very well be legal. In some states, audio recording without consent is not legal, but Missouri appears to be one-party-consent.

That makes no sense. If I have the right to record a video, I also have the right to publish the video as well.

Otherwise news outlets would never be able to publish the video they capture, especially in the coverage of breaking news.

That's not a logical argument. I did not say you never have the right, you don't necessarily have it, so news publishing video doesn't mean anything about other cases. In most jurisdictions, news explicitly have "high-priority" rights (freedom of press etc) to publish things related to current issues even if they can't be published for other purposes.

There's a reason things like model releases for photography and film exist: Having the copyright for something does not mean you have full freedom to use it. Again, in the US these rights tend to be limited, but even there they exist. E.g. while you can freely photograph in public (which is not the case everywhere in the world), you can't use people's image for advertising without permission, you can't freely use photos of artwork in public places or of some buildings, ..., all despite having the copyright on your images.

While those are very good points, none of them seem to apply here in this specific case.

In fact it's hard to see how his behavior is illegal, given today's laws.

It might be creepy, but a lot of creepy things are not illegal.

>What is creepy for you is not very relevant here.

Then (grandparent poster should) select better adjectives when making a point.

I didn't make the argument that it was or was not creepy, the parent made that. I just said "creepy" isn't an interesting argument. If it's a violation of rights, call it that. Getting my arm chopped off might be icky, but a doctor's not going to treat "icky arm", they're going to treat a dismemberment.
This guy is a veteran?!! What a shame, that someone sworn to protect Americans now cowers behind semantics and loopholes to exploit their trust!! Clearly ridership dropped on notifying them of the streaming, no excuse can hide the truth here - he wants to exploit their trust!

For shame! And unlike the proud, honest veterans who actually care for Americans!

Edit: any lawyers here? Can this become a federal wiretapping case, as twitch streams across state lines? Like gambling online relies on meaningless semantics of being within a state that allows for such?

> someone sworn to protect Americans now cowers behind semantics and loopholes to exploit their trust

This is pretty American if you ask me

I'm not a veteran, but I did take the oath of office. To me, the oath that I swore to uphold is to defend American government institutions (and particularly the agency I worked for) against foreign and domestic enemies. My oath doesn't mean I have any special commitments to individual American citizens acting in an individual capacity.
Indeed, semantics.

Wherever Americans specifically call out their gratitude for veteran's service, they're not thanking them for their allegiance to government institutions that may or may not be on their side. They specifically perceive veterans to be selflessly protecting 'the people'

I think, perhaps, you didn't interpret the oath as was intended...

It's supposed to be to The People through the agency of the Constitution and not pledging allegiance to whomever cuts your paycheck.

Remind me, why do people favor Uber over a taxi?
Is there any reason this could not happen in a taxi?
Cheaper. Easier ordering. You know when it will arrive. You can land in a country where people speak != your language, and still get around without having to learn the "local way". Reviews of rider and driver provide some metrics to act upon by vendor.
In NYC, I'll take a cab. Just about everywhere else in America I get a Lyft. Why? Because taxi dispatch sucks. The cabs never come, or they come very late. The dispatch operators are rude if you ask where the cab you called is. In some places, like Albany, NY, the cabs will take detours to pick up other passengers without asking you or telling you that's what will happen. Etc.

If you live in most of America, and want to get somewhere, and the public transit sucks, Lyft gets you there. Taxis just don't.

Speed and convenience.

People who get snarky about Uber/Facebook/etc. users don't seem to realize that these things have very real utility for millions of people. We don't just use them because we're too stupid to know better. If you want to address their (very real, glaring) problems, you'll need to offer an equally-useful alternative, not just smug moralizing.

in the US, there was a problem with taxis not picking up some minorities. If you were LGBT, there was a high likelihood of harassment or abuse by the driver. These are far less likely in lyft/uber s
Uber/Lyft vs Taxi

- call by tapping a few times (vs finding dispatch phone number in every city)

- reliable ETA always on screen (vs calling dispatch for unreliable estimate)

- cheaper and always shows the price before I get in (vs more expensive and no estimate)

- never taken on scenic route and usually dropped off directly at destination (vs often driver optimizes by taking scenic route or dropping off short of destination)

I do not agree with streaming but there are a LOT of uber and lyft drivers that now use cameras which record the interior of the car. If you pick up a lot of drunk people inevitably a bunch of them are going to be assholes, pick fights, claim sexual harassment when there was none, vomit in the back of the car and then deny the cleaning charge, etc. I do not envy the "dealing with the random public" part that full time uber/lyft drivers have to handle.
Yeah it's the profit that pushes this right into unethical territory.
If you warn them that they are recorded then it would be ok. But, as the article states, many people refuse to ride in this case.
Gargac’s videos fit into the newer “IRL,” or “In Real Life,” section that encourages users to stream their life outside of games.

Gargac says he’s earned about $3,500 off Twitch users so far, including subscriptions, donations and tips called “bits.” That’s on top of about $150 to $300 he earns from fares on an average night. He typically drives on weekend nights because, he says, the bar crowd makes for the most entertaining rides.

So, the Gig Economy, where so many workers are underpaid and have no benefits, etc, mated with the Internet version of Reality TV and this is their bastard child.

I find it disturbing, but I think the conversation here should really be about "What can the average person realistically do who doesn't want to be a wage slave anymore?" I mean, if we want people to not whore out their passengers' lives in a grotesque modern version of Candid Camera for cash, maybe we should, like, create jobs with adequate pay and benefits.

Bizarre concept, I know, that treating all your citizens like they deserve a living wage, medical care and basic, decent housing might promote ethical behavior. But I'm putting it out there anyway.

No. You cannot rationalize someone's malicious intent to exploit and profit off of trust people place in you by getting into your cab on the gig economy, or anything else. That's a slippery slope where bad actors place blame on non causal issues for their actions
I am neither rationalizing it, nor justifying it. However, having spent several years homeless and found that classism, sexism and other societal crap were huge barriers to me getting my life back, I think it is unrealistic and cruel to not criticize the sick system that helps foster such bad choices.

If you make it hard enough to make good choices that you approve of, don't be shocked when some people's moral fiber fails the test and they get on with meeting survival needs instead of ethically and high-mindedly starving.

I don't see how any of what you said applies to the current story. We don't know whether the driver has financial problems or not.

On the surface, it seems likely that the driver is simply an unethical person who is abusing his customers' trust for money and/or fame.

I feel some very valid assumptions about an uber driver were made in the initial comment, that might explain this behaviour. These comments were made with regards to his income situation.

I agree with you though that it might not be for making money, but just because the driver is a morally bad individual.

A much more likely scenario than him being a bad actor is that he might've thought he had found a hole in the market that would bring him 15 minutes of fame, and that's where his rational and moral thoughts went out the window.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17583690

My dad was a veteran with shrapnel in one eye that made him unable to purchase additional life insurance and it caused blind spells that left him intermittently unemployed for months at a time. I've had a class on Homelessness and Public Policy. I know something about both veterans and homelessness. (For those not bothering to click on the link above, veterans are over-represented amongst the homeless.)

Veterans tend to be proud people. They may not tell you how maimed their military career left them and it may not be obvious why they can't get a better job. I also don't see where the article made any effort whatsoever to understand why he has chosen to do such a thing.

So perhaps you don't see how my remark applies to the current story because the current story would like to vilify him while glossing over the context in which this is occurring.

I agree that this is a symptom.

Uber is in the business of pushing exploitation as far as possible. And they are not the only company doing this in the self-destructive frenzy of late stage capitalism.

The official narrative is that everyone has a choice, while removing as much choice as possible for most.

It doesn't have to be either/or between "malicious and greedy" and "poor person desperate to make ends meet." The truth often lies somewhere in between.
>You cannot rationalize someone's malicious intent to exploit and profit off of trust people place in you

What? That's Hacker News' favorite thing to do.

>by getting into your cab on the gig economy

OH. Right. Yeah. They're doing it face to face, not from behind apps and contracts of adhesion. Very different. Carry on.

I am not sure if providing benefits would offset the temptation to earn 3.5k extra income. Case in point, This guy is an army vet so presumably he already has health benefits.

> treating all your citizens

non citizen population need benefits too.

Gargac began driving for Uber, and occasionally Lyft, in early March. He was livestreaming all of his rides by the end of that month.

That $3.5k in extra income is over the course of about 3.5 months or so. Call it an extra $1000/month. A quick google tells me that health insurance costs average around $321 or $558 per month for an individual and $833 per month for a family, plus there is a multi-thousand dollar annual deductible. [2] Sounds to me like, yes, universal basic health coverage absolutely could help someone resist the temptation for that amount of money.

Edit: I will note the article indicates he is 32, so while he's a veteran, he's not a military retiree. He likely doesn't have military medical benefits.

non citizen population need benefits too.

I don't disagree with you.[2] I'm just shooting for the low hanging fruit first that hopefully more people will readily agree on.

[1] https://gusto.com/framework/health-benefits/how-much-is-heal...

[2] https://twitter.com/doreen_michele/status/102075093793191116...

>Sounds to me like, yes, universal basic health coverage absolutely could help someone resist the temptation for that amount of money.

...if you give someone any amount of money, it will help resist the temptation for more money, unless they're already not interested in money in the first place.

So, yes, universal health care would do the trick, as would a flat reimbursement, or lower prices on goods/services (effectively more money), as would any other manner of lessening the amount of money they need.

> Sounds to me like, yes, universal basic health coverage absolutely could help someone resist the temptation for that amount of money.

Your thesis basically is that this could never happen in Canada or happens less frequently in canada. It could be true.

But there seem to be lots of these in canada too

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/uber-scam-driver-polic...

My thesis is more like "You can't reasonably assume he is merely a malicious ass hat given the crap going on in the US today and the lack of certain details in the article."

I'm not saying such people don't exist. I'm just saying that when the system actively makes it hard enough to survive while doing things the world would approve of, don't be all shocked when some folks stop caring about the world's approval and start caring more about their bottom line.

This would never happen in Canada... our data rates are too outrageous to make this viable.
Ring doorbell cameras record without consent, and can be shared via their neighborhood feature. Uber vehicles, like homes with Ring cameras, are private property. Aside from Uber serving as a middleman between private citizens and private property, what's the difference?
For one thing, doorbell cameras aren't generally streamed to the entire world.
would it make a difference if they were?
Yeah I think so. Also if someone is clearly profiting from my privacy breach I'm going to be further upset.

Mind you I often, when going to people's houses ask them to turn off their Alexa or whatever and they're pretty happy to.

Hidden trigger phrases or targeted spying are a real hard to discover possibility.

Yes, it would. It is normal that if you come to someone's door the owner can see you.
What is the expectation of privacy in a vehicle in a public place, according to the law?

I’m not weighing in on what it should be - not being a lawyer I’m curious what the law or precedent dictates.

it's not even that, it's a question of the expectation of privacy in someone else's vehicle.
Am I the only one who has no problem with this? You're in someone else's car. Of course that person has a right to record you. And freedom of the press is a crucial cornerstone of a democratic state. Of course this person has a right to publish anything they please.

This is just journalism paired with a new and novel social and technological configuration. Nothing more.

Meanwhile, actual eavesdropping-style surveillance is ongoing via state institutions. Are we perhaps bothered by our conscience a bit here?

It's basic decency to let the people know they are being filmed.
> Am I the only one who has no problem with this? You're in someone else's car. Of course that person has a right to record you. And freedom of the press is a crucial cornerstone of a democratic state. Of course this person has a right to publish anything they please.

Is there a name for the fallacy that says "anything not actually illegal must therefore be morally correct"?

I wasn't making the case that it's merely legal and therefore OK - it's actually novel and interesting IMO. What's so wrong with it?
It's neither novel nor interesting, and other countries have already regulated this.

For example, in England you're allowed to use CCTV but you need to register with ICO and you can only use that video for law enforcement purposes - eg if someone vomits in your car you could use the video when you sue that person.

I, too, don't have a problem with this. Overall, video would increase safety of passenger and driver. My problem is with the comments on the video stream. For safety of passenger, I hope he obscures their names and addresses.
For safety you don't need to film people secretly or upload the video to the Internet. The driver did this for profit.
I am not fine with this. I don't want anyone to record me secretly let alone stream over Internet.
> I don't want anyone to record me secretly

Well, too bad. The photons that bounce off your skin don't belong to you in perpetuity. You don't get to tell the rest of us how to use our eyes (including electronic eyes).

Do you instruct everyone you converse with to forget what you've said unless they have your permission to remember?

If we follow your logic then sneaking around a military base with a camera is not a problem, right?
12 US states have laws against surreptitiously recording private figures. Their media and democratic institutions seem to function about as well as the rest.

Most people believe that not all information is newsworthy. That includes most journalists, who try to balance people's rights to live their lives unmolested with the public interest. If what Jason Gargac is doing is journalism, so is "revenge porn".

Gargac also lied about his recording and hypocritically asked the Post-Dispatch to withhold his name "because privacy concerns".

What point are you trying to make about warrantless spying? The legal rationalization relies on a reductionist view of privacy similar to yours.

Does anyone have a feeling for what the GDPR fine would be, if this had taken place in Europe? The number of people affected is fairly small, but this isn't the usual negligence or incompetence.

(Ironically, the site is geoblocked for the EU.)

I guess $1000 per case of filming plus his earnings
I guess it would really depend if they go after the driver or Uber itself.
Cowardly behaviour to hide behind the “it’s legal” line. If the majority of your passengers, who don’t know they’re on camera, think this is creepy then ethically you’re in the wrong.
This guy is one indecent exposure instance away from potentially serious legal issues.
Of course this dude is trying to be a cop.
This is seriously not OK. I guess I’m going to have to carry around a hat or something and keep my head down whenever I get into a Lyft. It might be legal, but it’s truly not OK especially when people don’t know they are being streamed live. I hope Uber wises up and does something about this guy.
If a passenger who is a minor exposed themself to the camera, would the driver the liable for producing (and distributing) child pornography, if they somehow didn't notice and let it be posted?
Technically, it is against policy to transport minors under 18; that’s up to the driver.
What surprised me most is not the poor culture of the driver or the viewers but rather poor legislation in USA. They have the right to bear arms, but have no sane protection for privacy.

For comparison. on Japanese TV when they take an interview in the street, they hide the faces of unrelated people passing by. That's the example of sane legislation.

The US Govt surprisingly has very lax laws towards privacy. I guess you can’t build a govt for the people when corporate money runs the system.
You know this episode of Black Mirror with Hamm...? Nevermind
Update - When first asked to comment on the story Uber said the following: "Recording passengers without their consent is illegal in some states, but not Missouri.”

Then around 7 pm they suspended the drivers access to the app pending investigation. They just affirmed what he's doing is not illegal. So is the investigation time being used so their lawyers can find a valid excuse to terminate him?

By the way an adequate response would be to publish driver's full name, photo and address and tell the story on the local news. So that everyone around knows who he is and he can better understand how victims felt.
I drive for Uber as a mental and emotional health break between contracts.

Uber partners do not have to accept every request. In fact, I don’t accept any passenger with a low score. As it turns out, there’s no shortage of passengers in San Francisco. Be nice to your driver!

Most passengers appear to be completely unaware that it is a “privilege” for a passenger to ride in my car, (not a “right”)

Resultingly, a very small group of terrible passengers feel that their abusive behavior towards others or my property is justified.

With informed consent, I do indeed record all activity in and out of the car.

If it starts to get abusive I will simply end the ride when and where it is safe to do so.

When one enters my car, they’re inside my privately owned vehicle. If they don’t like being recorded - They can probably easily find a ride with a different driver.

Of course, everybody I drive seems to be OK with this arrangement, as my driver score is 4.99 stars.

This is what I have written / posted: ——————————

First, welcome to my car!

If you’re reasonable, decent, empathetic human who understands how painful it is for me to have to write the following informed consent disclaimer, thanks.

You are appreciated, friend.

• This car is equipped with video capture and broadcast devices.

• This equipment protects you (the passenger), Joshua (the driver), and the vehicle from a "He Said - She Said" scenario in the event of accident or an incident.

• In California, video recording does not require two party consent; only “informed consent” I.e me informing you - which this just did.

• There is no audio recording - that would require your consent.

• In addition, an abbreviated notice of active filming has been posted on all exterior passenger windows.

• If at any time you feel uncomfortable with video being captured, please inform me as soon as possible. We will work together to find a agreeable safe place to promptly end this trip. You will only be charged for the partial trip. Note that video capture and recording will continue in the event of a rapid escalation of hostilities.

Thanks for understanding!

I forgot add- I only keep recordings for me.
I doubt that will qualify as "informed consent" for those not literate in English or the vision-impaired.
True, but my legal obligation has been fulfilled.

CA Government doesn’t require me to cover every use case for the recording law as it applies to every camera recording the public.

Just curious, so if a potential passenger were unhappy with the recording (I wouldn't care FWIW) do you just cancel the trip before they ride or mark them as a no show?
Insane! The driver wants his privacy respected by not having reporters include his full name in the stories...