I kinda think this is a non-issue. If you are working at the level of Keras then the back-end is pluggable. You can use a fancy GPU relying on a binary blob, you can use PlaidML to use any random GPU, you can use CPU as a last resort. The Keras code is all the same, you just set the backend you want in an environment variable.
People not sharing weights (or sharing but on non-open licenses) is an issue.
Other things are not an issue (and from the tone of this post is clear that they repeat misheard things).
First, you can load things into your network regardless if you use CPU or GPU. And if needed, people can write GPU code for other architectures/
Second, inference (prediction) is fast. Yeah, it may be not useful for real-time applications on CPU (like: self-driving cars) but for detecting one object it can be fast (see e.g. https://transcranial.github.io/keras-js/#/resnet50).
Third, using things like TensorFlow.js you get GPU acceleration with any GPU card, not only nVidia. It is not nearly as fast, but still faster than Python + CPU. There are real-time demos such as https://experiments.withgoogle.com/collection/ai/move-mirror....
Side note: I just start https://inbrowser.ai/ for tutorials and open source templates for using fully frontend AI.
In the specific case of Leela Zero, there is no NVIDIA lockin whatsoever. Leela Zero uses OpenCL so that people with AMD GPU can use it. Deep learning research code can require NVIDIA; end-user game software mostly can't.
'In fact, they are probably not redistributable unless all the training data is supplied, since the GPL's definition of "source code" is the "preferred form for modification". For a pretrained neural network that is the training data'.
To me, this is the crux of the matter. If the view is taken that software distributed under a "free-software" compatible license is non-free without the ability to obtain all training sets for any models, there's going to be huge difficulty in incorporating ML into free software in many cases. Since many datasets aren't able to be redistributed freely (e.g. licensing, legal, cost), that's an enormous advantage for non-free offerings.
A possible route around this might be 'community curated' datasets, where contributors freely license their data in the same way as we do code. It'd be interesting to see if they come with an analog of the AGPL - ie. models trained on this dataset must be released to the user as source. (This might already exist?)
The above link actually only has the raw sgf files (game records). The actual training data (output of MCTS search) is here: https://leela.online-go.com/training/
I think an ML model is not free if training dataset is not provided. You can't inspect it for vulnerabilities and you can't modify it in the common interpretation of the word.
Whatever difficulties this view presents, this is the only view that makes sense.
That's not even an argument. Here is one against the claims.
Modification: There have been repeatedly successful case of transfer learning where you take a pretrained deep neural network and train on a new dataset (even very small).
Vulnerability: you dont need the training dataset to test vulnerabilities, you just either very specific input (that you probably gonna have to create yourself because they are so specific that they are not even in the dataset) or using one input that you corrupt for attacking. And as far as I know it doesn't sound harder than making test for regular algorithms.
The space of possible inputs to a machine learning model is essentially infinite. This makes it a completely different ballpark than unit testing code, where a small set of tests can cover good amount of interesting cases, and where various coverage metrics can reasonably be used to estimate completeness.
It is also hard to generate tests for ML models due to lack of good oracles (detectors of wrong results).
Defense against adversarial inputs is still considered an open research problem, I believe.
This is totally an issue and I am glad there is some emerging discussion. It's true that practically you can run SGD on a CPU but it is really not feasible as your training time might blow up by a factor of 50 and it is not unusual to train a network for a week using nvidia GPUs (and their proprietary drivers and frameworks like cudnn).
At this point in time you just can't do some of the DL stuff without proprietary nvidia tech.
Most of the questions raised in the thread were basically irrelevant to Leela Zero, which does everything "correct" from the point-of-view of a strict interpretation of free software:
- open freely licensed data set
- open freely licensed training code
The only issue relevant for user software freedom, is that the results of the training process can't be reproduced easily.
I was irritated at the thread because 90% of it was theorising about some alternative situation where the data set was not free, or the training code was not free. That is not the situation we have with Leela Zero, we can skip that discussion and focus on what's actually at issue, i.e. the reproduction / verification of the training process.
What are the issues with reproducing the training process? It requires too many computing resources (which might require non-free cloud services), or it requires non-free software like GPU drivers, or both?
For Leela Zero it's basically just the computing resources, the software is done using an abstract but openly-specified GPU execution system OpenCL, similar (as far as I understand) to an instruction set architecture (ISA).
Whether the abstract execution system is implemented in a proprietary or free way is a separate issue. For example these days it's hard to execute x86 instructions without running some sort of proprietary microcode and/or management engine. For comparison, OpenCL has many competing implementations, including the free open source MESA graphics drivers.
Does "training process" concept in this discussion includes the whole process of starting from scratch and reproduce leela zero from tabula rasa, or is it just the training of the latest network from available training data?
How do you deal with evolving software versions (and dataset versions, and build environment). Do you have to retrain the whole weights to make sure the training would results in exactly the same weights. Maybe some unit cases/non-regression tests between versions to check that there are no breaking changes and that results are fully deterministic?
That's a very interesting question, especially since the training data is also (partly) generated by the software in a self-feedback loop. For the case of Leela Zero, most of it has been generated by Leela Zero itself based on its own algorithm, but some of the data has been supplied from the data set generated by the Facebook ELF Go engine. (They used it as a shortcut to catch up to the level of ELF, and then surpass it.)
In order to reproduce the current best-weights then, one would have to record exactly what versions of Leela Zero and ELF was used to generate which subsets of data, and which subsets were used to create further subsets of the data. I don't think anyone has kept that information around, so I'd guess the current best-weights will not actually be reproducible, ever.
In future, one can imagine other software that could keep track of this information, and then be actually able to reproduce a particular resulting set of weights.
However let's step back a bit. On a high-level, nobody actually cares that the results are not fully deterministic, they only care that it is a faithful representation of what the source code does. This is true both for software determinism and for weights-model determinism. Being deterministic is a (relatively) easy property, which when we achieve it, allows us to verify that the results (binary software, trained weights) don't contain backdoors or other unpleasantness that's not visible in the source code. But the latter is what we "actually" care about.
If we can achieve the latter property without achieving determinism, then we are also mostly satisfied. That would involve being able to examine the model directly and see what it does, and see that it doesn't contain backdoors or other things. I can't even begin to imagine how to achieve this, it is a hard problem and the solution to this, would also solve the criticism of these AI weights/models being opaque and not really contributing much to human knowledge.
Determinism is still useful for other purposes though. If you know exactly how something was produced, you have much greater control and understanding of how to tweak it, which might actually help us with the aforementioned goal of deeply-understanding these weights from a human perspective.
NVIDIA is the major obstacle to FOSS for a decades already. So they keep their spirit even now. Mainline Tensorflow, for example, still doesn't support OpenCL.
So what? High-end GPU are used in servers and desktops, which almost exclusively run Linux in this space. The really relevant thing here is hardware (Nvidia vs AMD) and software - Nvidia drivers + CUDA (+ Nvidia's OpenCL) vs AMD drivers + OpenCL.
So far Nvidia does excellent technical work with their hardware + their out of the box CUDA toolkit + support in every major deep learning library. The drawback is that they keep everything closed and they charge a huge premium.
AMD has great hardware at good prices but the software side is non-existent and the Linux support goes from bad to worse.
Nvidia is the one having absolute control here and they choose to squeeze the market because they can.
And Nvidia isn’t the only company to do so. Intel had a similar monopoly and squeezed it for all it was worth, while providing the best available scientific computing libraries. I can’t blame them, but I would certainly prefer it if there was a way to generically dispatch optimal code for heterogeneous hardware.
The advantages of MKL (or does that mean something else?) are over-sold. Indeed, I understand the relevant primitives in this context were driven by Pabst's free implementations in libxsmm. I don't know whether "dispatch optimal code for heterogeneous hardware" means chose the SIMD instructions or offload appropriately, but what's missing in whichever case it is?
Intel's free software release seems to me to be rather in their favour compared with other vendors.
I was speaking regarding different GPUs. I’d like a framework which generates the fastest code for performing a given task for whatever GPU you have.
MKL’s fft isn’t a huge improvement on fftw with avx512, but its blas is ~3x as fast as openblas currently. And before these open source projects caught up, it was by far the best.
And I agree, they’ve been better about it lately. I was comparing Intel then and Nvidia now.
I don't know a lot about GPU compilation/offload, but I'd expect normally to dispatch to library kernels the way linear algebra frameworks do, given we can't even compile GEMM effectively on CPUs. Sufficiently smart tools always welcome, though.
For a free avx512 BLAS, use the current release of BLIS.
OpenBLAS recently gained skx (but not knl) gemm support, but I don't know how good it is as I don't have the hardware.
Could AMD open-sourcing their (hopefully incoming) stack of learning libraries be a competitive edge for them? They are far behind but this could be an important step.
Fundamentally, the large-scale collection of (often user generated) data to train models puts a more and more power into the hands of those doing the collection.
Since giving away this data is mostly neither possible or desirable legally, nor in the interest of the dataset owner, there is a tradeoff between wanting to learn from data, and preserving privacy of the people generating/described by the data.
That is not to say that science is not trying, like for example this paper:
Its good to see some discussion about this. I'm currently maintaining an open source automated speech transcription library (https://github.com/persephone-tools/persephone) that's being used in some research and we are extremely concerned about enabling reproducible research. Because the system is neural net based (Tensorflow) we have gone to effort beyond just open sourcing the code to make sure that people can rerun experiments. Reading this and the comments makes me aware that there might be sources of nondeterminism or other issues I may not be aware of. What issues should we be aware of for making sure that people can replicate results that were trained earlier? Are there any resources that discuss how people have gone about doing this? Any advice would be much appreciated
I think distributing the weights will give you guaranteed reproducibility. If your users intend on retraining the network, another idea would be to set performance expectations on a validation set within ballpark. So you could tell them, "we got 90% accuracy on this dataset, if you re-train and get below 80 you've probably made a mistake somewhere." The scary thing to me would be the very small test cases where maybe different trained neural nets end up having a lot of variance because there is barely more than noise to learn.
Distributing the weights seems to be the safest method, something I'll have to look into a bit more. It's a bit disturbing that training with the same data and same parameters could lead to different weights and therefore different accuracies but it's better to know that this is the case than not.
My understanding (though it may be out of date) is that reproducibility is tough, at least in part because of closed gpu drivers, and in part because the big frameworks aren't really designed for it (possibly because it's pointless given the driver situation).
On the framework side, you'd want good ways to ensure that random seeds are well distributed across a cluster of workers (and be able to restore state of a machine goes down). Also need to ensure that workers consume training data in a fixed order. This will slow you down, since you've got to wait for the slow poke every time, before updating weights.
People keep saying it's "not feasible" to do deep learning on a CPU. Is that actually true? I'm thinking of papers like this one[0] from Uber. that make the claim that CPU training is very much feasible, in this case with a cluster of 10 machines, each with 72~ CPUs. There's a blog post about someone recreating the paper here[1].
Sure, you can't do it on ONE CPU, but the point is to have a cluster of CPUs. It's not the case that you're forced to use nVidia's proprietary stuff in order to do deep learning.
It's definitely feasible and widely used for reinforcement learning on low dimensional systems, where the neural networks are small and the simulator is more expensive than backprop. On other hand, deep Q learning from pixels on Atari is practically impossible without GPUs.
41 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 81.1 ms ] threadFirst, you can load things into your network regardless if you use CPU or GPU. And if needed, people can write GPU code for other architectures/
Second, inference (prediction) is fast. Yeah, it may be not useful for real-time applications on CPU (like: self-driving cars) but for detecting one object it can be fast (see e.g. https://transcranial.github.io/keras-js/#/resnet50).
Third, using things like TensorFlow.js you get GPU acceleration with any GPU card, not only nVidia. It is not nearly as fast, but still faster than Python + CPU. There are real-time demos such as https://experiments.withgoogle.com/collection/ai/move-mirror....
Side note: I just start https://inbrowser.ai/ for tutorials and open source templates for using fully frontend AI.
To me, this is the crux of the matter. If the view is taken that software distributed under a "free-software" compatible license is non-free without the ability to obtain all training sets for any models, there's going to be huge difficulty in incorporating ML into free software in many cases. Since many datasets aren't able to be redistributed freely (e.g. licensing, legal, cost), that's an enormous advantage for non-free offerings.
A possible route around this might be 'community curated' datasets, where contributors freely license their data in the same way as we do code. It'd be interesting to see if they come with an analog of the AGPL - ie. models trained on this dataset must be released to the user as source. (This might already exist?)
Whatever difficulties this view presents, this is the only view that makes sense.
It's like saying you can modify and audit Microsoft Windows or other proprietary software because you can write and read the bytes of its object code.
Modification: There have been repeatedly successful case of transfer learning where you take a pretrained deep neural network and train on a new dataset (even very small).
Vulnerability: you dont need the training dataset to test vulnerabilities, you just either very specific input (that you probably gonna have to create yourself because they are so specific that they are not even in the dataset) or using one input that you corrupt for attacking. And as far as I know it doesn't sound harder than making test for regular algorithms.
At this point in time you just can't do some of the DL stuff without proprietary nvidia tech.
Most of the questions raised in the thread were basically irrelevant to Leela Zero, which does everything "correct" from the point-of-view of a strict interpretation of free software:
- open freely licensed data set - open freely licensed training code
The only issue relevant for user software freedom, is that the results of the training process can't be reproduced easily.
I was irritated at the thread because 90% of it was theorising about some alternative situation where the data set was not free, or the training code was not free. That is not the situation we have with Leela Zero, we can skip that discussion and focus on what's actually at issue, i.e. the reproduction / verification of the training process.
I suppose no one could just lend you the infrastructure needed to rebuild the model (sponsors, or otherwise supporters of Debian?)
Whether the abstract execution system is implemented in a proprietary or free way is a separate issue. For example these days it's hard to execute x86 instructions without running some sort of proprietary microcode and/or management engine. For comparison, OpenCL has many competing implementations, including the free open source MESA graphics drivers.
In order to reproduce the current best-weights then, one would have to record exactly what versions of Leela Zero and ELF was used to generate which subsets of data, and which subsets were used to create further subsets of the data. I don't think anyone has kept that information around, so I'd guess the current best-weights will not actually be reproducible, ever.
In future, one can imagine other software that could keep track of this information, and then be actually able to reproduce a particular resulting set of weights.
However let's step back a bit. On a high-level, nobody actually cares that the results are not fully deterministic, they only care that it is a faithful representation of what the source code does. This is true both for software determinism and for weights-model determinism. Being deterministic is a (relatively) easy property, which when we achieve it, allows us to verify that the results (binary software, trained weights) don't contain backdoors or other unpleasantness that's not visible in the source code. But the latter is what we "actually" care about.
If we can achieve the latter property without achieving determinism, then we are also mostly satisfied. That would involve being able to examine the model directly and see what it does, and see that it doesn't contain backdoors or other things. I can't even begin to imagine how to achieve this, it is a hard problem and the solution to this, would also solve the criticism of these AI weights/models being opaque and not really contributing much to human knowledge.
Determinism is still useful for other purposes though. If you know exactly how something was produced, you have much greater control and understanding of how to tweak it, which might actually help us with the aforementioned goal of deeply-understanding these weights from a human perspective.
Edit: yes. Discussion on hn: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17231593
So far Nvidia does excellent technical work with their hardware + their out of the box CUDA toolkit + support in every major deep learning library. The drawback is that they keep everything closed and they charge a huge premium. AMD has great hardware at good prices but the software side is non-existent and the Linux support goes from bad to worse.
Nvidia is the one having absolute control here and they choose to squeeze the market because they can.
Intel's free software release seems to me to be rather in their favour compared with other vendors.
MKL’s fft isn’t a huge improvement on fftw with avx512, but its blas is ~3x as fast as openblas currently. And before these open source projects caught up, it was by far the best.
And I agree, they’ve been better about it lately. I was comparing Intel then and Nvidia now.
For a free avx512 BLAS, use the current release of BLIS. OpenBLAS recently gained skx (but not knl) gemm support, but I don't know how good it is as I don't have the hardware.
When they realized the mistake and came up with SPIR it was too late.
Also SYSCL is no better than CUDA with their community edition.
Is the era of computers + internet = freedom and knowledge-sharing over?
Perhaps I'm over-dramatising but this is not something to be okay with.
Since giving away this data is mostly neither possible or desirable legally, nor in the interest of the dataset owner, there is a tradeoff between wanting to learn from data, and preserving privacy of the people generating/described by the data.
That is not to say that science is not trying, like for example this paper:
https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2813687
On the framework side, you'd want good ways to ensure that random seeds are well distributed across a cluster of workers (and be able to restore state of a machine goes down). Also need to ensure that workers consume training data in a fixed order. This will slow you down, since you've got to wait for the slow poke every time, before updating weights.
Sure, you can't do it on ONE CPU, but the point is to have a cluster of CPUs. It's not the case that you're forced to use nVidia's proprietary stuff in order to do deep learning.
[0]: https://arxiv.org/abs/1712.06567 [1]: https://towardsdatascience.com/paper-repro-deep-neuroevoluti...