They left out the best part: The use of the word "redhead," for people with hair that is decidedly orange rather than red, predates the emergence of the color name "orange." Otherwise, they would presumably have been called "orangeheads."
Oh danger, orange, her hair may be, by the manger, quite, orange she sees, the fire burns bright, the ranger, he schemes, in death she finds evil Sir Granger's deeds.
It's not as absurd as it may seem. Eminem discussed the topic at one point, although I don't think any of them would fit the bill as a replacement for "redhead": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPcR5RVXHMg
I am wondering why didn't the word percolate to Punjabi language where we call the colour as "santri" and the fruit is called "santra". Hindi has the same word for it, I think.
Or to Kannada, where the fruit is called "kittaLe", despite also being classified a Dravidian language. Kannada and Telugu in general seem to have too many differences from Tamil and Malayalam to be lumped into a common bucket.
The color has always been referred to as "kesari" in Kannada, and translates to saffron.
The "even older Dravidian [language]" referred to in the article is not exactly Tamil. The oldest written evidence we have for Old Tamil[1] dates to the 3rd century BC[2]. But we're told that this word is in Sanskrit's vocabulary, which was already developed well before then. (Some people date the Vedas to the 15th century BC.)
That means it probably didn't come from Tamil, and instead came from some other, older Dravidian language. That might be Proto-Dravidian, the common ancestor of all Dravidian languages (Tamil, Malayalam, Kannada, Telugu, etc.), or some other ancient Dravidian language that we don't have a record of.
(That seems likely, because that's generally how other Dravidian words in Sanskrit are thought to have gotten there: Skt. फल (phala) 'fruit' is thought to have been borrowed from Proto-Dravidian *palam, which has descended into Tamil பழம் (paḻam), Malayalam പഴം (paḻaṃ), etc.)
Some English words actually are directly from Tamil, though. Curry[3] and mango[4] are both directly from Tamil.
[1]: Old Tamil is actually quite different from Modern Tamil, but let's not get into that
personally dont care about peer review status since we know the reasons westerners reject this information has nothing to do with science but self interest
but you might be interested to know it was first proposed by a european named jacobi before europeans got the desire to be aryan leading to the world war and destruction
I will wait for an article published in a journal which at least has an Impact Factor. Cannot even find impact factor for the journal you linked to. And your central theme is invalidating western views while proving Indian supremacy, I will not lend any credence to your views and assertions.
the recent harvard preprint only had evidence for steppe women settling with indus men
this was not noted in the paper itself but only on twitter
you can imagine the ridiculousness of claims that women drove out dravidians and then installed a patriarchy
i hope they do publish cause it would mark the low point of western science future historians can point to as the beginning of the fall
in any case they have no evidence of steppe languages only inferences and we have strong evidence of sanskrit in india 3000 BC well before the fake aryan invasion claims of 1500 BC
the word for rice also comes from tamil arici and not from the chinese mi
unexpectedly even the japanese use a form of the tamil word coupled with the chinese word uruchi mai leading to theories of dravidian japanese linkages or atleast contact and trade
but the debate of whether the tamil word itself comes from sanskrit vrihi is not settled
there is the possibility of agriculture spreading to north india from south india and lanka starting 17.5kya and then on to the fertile crescent as well contrary to popular beliefs
Indian marxist? No wonder you belong and advocate views of Hindu nationalist party of India, BJP. Pathetic diss.
Two Points regarding the article:-
1. Author says agriculture first started in Sri Lanka, and then uses that to say India was the country where agriculture started. Completely ignoring the fact that Sri Lanka is not in India.
2. Author says, "India cannot now be ruled out as the home of the grape, in which case, we would have a Neolithic-era spread of a crop from India to the FC and beyond."
His whole assertion is this paper [A], where all the paper authors say is that grape could have been present in India before the presently accepted timeline, they don't say anything about India being home of the grape or even if grape spread out from India. IndiaFacts did quite a reach there just for proving supremacy of India.
So yeah again, a better site for your ignorant BS. It is better to not bring your level of discourse to this site.
I think it is called an older Dravidian language, and not Tamil because the older Dravidian language cannot be called Tamil. It is vastly different from the Tamil that is spoken today. Calling a language the "oldest" is usually just veiled attempts at asserting racial/cultural superiority that does not really exist. Oscar Tay has a great answer on Quora explaining this, and I cannot state it any better: https://www.quora.com/Is-Tamil-the-oldest-living-language-in...
Interestingly, in Dutch, the word is "Appelsien" according to Wikipedia, which seems quite unrelated to any word like "Orange" - this in a country where the royal family is called "House of Orange"?
The word "sinaasappel" is much more common, which sounds a lot more like the Chinese apple you're referring to than "appelsien". The latter is used in a brand name for fruit juice (used to be exclusively orange juice). Besides that it's practically not used in modern Dutch.
Both sinaasappel and appelsien are derived from chinese apple (from dutch wikipedia: De sinaasappel komt oorspronkelijk uit China (in de oude vorm: Sina), waar ook de naam naar verwijst. In het vroegnieuwnederlands komt "appel sina" voor, in het nieuwnederlands "appelsien").
(Also in flemish appelsien is used far more than sinaasappel).
FTA: "His orange exists only to brighten up tawny, a dark brown."
Almost like orange-is-to-brown as pink-is-to-red. This is more apparent when looking at http://colorizer.org/ and choosing HSV colorspace with H==34, S==80, and varying V==[20,90].
In Italian we have the Latin word "luscinia" (nightingale) that became "usignolo". -olo is just a suffix that means small, the interesting part is that at some point people started confusing the initial L for the article l'.
I'm not buying this. "eke" as "also" may give the sense "by-name", alright. What irks me is the lack of explanation of the rebracketing, which would appear like a mistake. But "nick of time" and the like would make a reanalysis as "short name" plausible, so not a mistake but a funny play of words.
Rebracketing also happened a lot when incorporating words from other languages, from a misunderstanding of the other languages (often the misunderstanding occurred first in another language before being borrowed by English).
"Alligator" is from Spanish "el lagarto" ("the lizard").
Tons of terms from Arabic include "al," the Arabic word for "the":
Rebracketing also leads to some interesting affix/root usage:
The root of "cybernetics" is "cybern," but "cyber" is frequently used to form related words.
"Helicopter" comes from "helix" ("spiral") and "pteron" ("wing"), but it is generally split into "heli"/"helo" and "copter" for the formation of related words.
For a fun examplen from another language, consider the Arabic version of the name Alexander.
On hearing the city name "Alexandria" in many places (most notably Egypt), Arabs assumed the start was the Arabic definite article: Al-exandria. In addition, they swapped the "k" and "s" sounds, in an inverse of the African-American Vernacular formation of "aks" from "ask", making the city name "Al-iskandaria". To complete the ridiculous chain, they then back-formed the historical figure's name from the cities named after him: Iskandar.
My favorite one is "umpire". The origin of the word is the Old French nonper which means "not even", referring to an extra person arbitrating a match between two "even" teams.
The "per" part of "nonper" originated from the Latin "par" meaning "even" which is also the root of the modern English words "parity" and the "par" in "par for the course".
"Nonper" then made it's way into Middle English as "noumpere", and "a noumpere" soon became "an oumpere" via re-bracketing. The word pair then evolved into "an oumper", which finally became "an umpire" in modern English.
Anyone here have any idea how it came about that the element called Tungsten in english, is called Wolfram in swedish? Tungsten is obviously from swedish, as "tung" means "heavy" and "sten" means "rock"? (and Tungsten is indeed an extremely heavy metal). Wolfram, OTOH looks very much like an english word. Is it common for two languages to swap words like this?
In Turkish, orange is called „Portakal“. Reason is, this fruit was introduced to Ottoman soil by Portuguese sailors. Probably Turkish people heard the name first from North African Arabs living in Ottoman Empire, and they started to use this word.
I was reading comments to see if anybody mentioned the Russian words for orange color and fruit. "apelsin" is the word for the fruit and must have come over from Western Europe but the word for the color is "oranzhevuy" which is just "naranj" with the adjective suffix.
In Persian, "orange" as a fruit is also "portaghal". But the color is "narenji". And then there's another citrus fruit quite close to the orange called a "narenj", that you can't usually find in the West.
Interestingly, nobody eats the "narenj" directly. They usually squeeze its juice on a fish dish. It gives it a very nice flavour.
"Clementines"[1] are a fruit related to oranges that are commonly sold in grocery stores where I live, but the country they are sourced in varies. I've found the best ones seem to be from Portugal or Spain.
It’s pretty simple in Hungarian. The orange fruit is called “narancs”, while the color is “naracssárga” (“narancs” + “sárga”, where “sárga” means yellow).
Interesting that English was lacking this word for so long. Swedish has the word "brandgul" ("fire-yellow") which predates the English word orange by a couple of decades and is still in use. Which I guess in Swedish just makes it a variant of yellow instead of it's "own" color.
The word "orange" is also used for the color, but not for the fruit (which is "apelsin")
Really interesting, but I thought this was a bit weak:
> Alexander the Great dressed in robes, some “of crimson, some of purple, some of murrey, and some of orange colour velvet.” The translator is confident that “murrey” will be identifiable—it is a reddish purple, the color of mulberries—but he needs to add the noun “colour” after “orange” for its meaning to be clear.
I would read that as a list of things, each of which is a colour of velvet.
84 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 129 ms ] threadI think it could be better. A lot of oversees development has not been documented well and "studied" on an ad-hoc basis.
The incorrect division of Italian "(n)arancia" is debatable, as the similarity to e.g. Lt. aur(um), French or - gold might be completely intentional.
"Four engineers wore orange brassieres."
Came up with that one allll by myself.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuhhw
Puts all heaven in a rage
simply doesn’t have the same punch.
The Dravidian language referred here is Tamil. The fruit in the citrus family is called Narthangai. The unripe fruit makes a sour delicious pickle.
It's such a joy to hear a Tamil word used everyday around the globe.
The color has always been referred to as "kesari" in Kannada, and translates to saffron.
The "even older Dravidian [language]" referred to in the article is not exactly Tamil. The oldest written evidence we have for Old Tamil[1] dates to the 3rd century BC[2]. But we're told that this word is in Sanskrit's vocabulary, which was already developed well before then. (Some people date the Vedas to the 15th century BC.)
That means it probably didn't come from Tamil, and instead came from some other, older Dravidian language. That might be Proto-Dravidian, the common ancestor of all Dravidian languages (Tamil, Malayalam, Kannada, Telugu, etc.), or some other ancient Dravidian language that we don't have a record of.
(That seems likely, because that's generally how other Dravidian words in Sanskrit are thought to have gotten there: Skt. फल (phala) 'fruit' is thought to have been borrowed from Proto-Dravidian *palam, which has descended into Tamil பழம் (paḻam), Malayalam പഴം (paḻaṃ), etc.)
Some English words actually are directly from Tamil, though. Curry[3] and mango[4] are both directly from Tamil.
[1]: Old Tamil is actually quite different from Modern Tamil, but let's not get into that
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Tamil_language
[3]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/curry#Etymology_1
[4]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mango#Etymology
indians date it quite securely via astronomical observations in the texts of dhruva the pole star to 3000 BC or 5kya
dhruva was thuban or alpha draconis of draco or the indian constellation sisumara whale dolphin
there were no pole stars from about 2300 BC to 1500 AD but the knowledge of the previous one was preserved in india
the rig veda and some other vedas even predate the dhruva observation but have not been securely dated
Please post a credible source for whole of your post.
http://www.academia.edu/7193503/Dhruva-the-Ancient-Vedic-Hin...
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/RN_Iyengar
personally dont care about peer review status since we know the reasons westerners reject this information has nothing to do with science but self interest
but you might be interested to know it was first proposed by a european named jacobi before europeans got the desire to be aryan leading to the world war and destruction
video lecture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R2lXuUMdoo
another person same conclusion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfW4iLBgxg8
and actual science will head back east to india and maybe china if they can get their act together
this was not noted in the paper itself but only on twitter
you can imagine the ridiculousness of claims that women drove out dravidians and then installed a patriarchy
i hope they do publish cause it would mark the low point of western science future historians can point to as the beginning of the fall
in any case they have no evidence of steppe languages only inferences and we have strong evidence of sanskrit in india 3000 BC well before the fake aryan invasion claims of 1500 BC
unexpectedly even the japanese use a form of the tamil word coupled with the chinese word uruchi mai leading to theories of dravidian japanese linkages or atleast contact and trade
but the debate of whether the tamil word itself comes from sanskrit vrihi is not settled there is the possibility of agriculture spreading to north india from south india and lanka starting 17.5kya and then on to the fertile crescent as well contrary to popular beliefs
http://indiafacts.org/how-old-is-indian-agriculture/
please argue on merits of the content of the article
if you think there is something false please point to the specifics
Two Points regarding the article:- 1. Author says agriculture first started in Sri Lanka, and then uses that to say India was the country where agriculture started. Completely ignoring the fact that Sri Lanka is not in India.
2. Author says, "India cannot now be ruled out as the home of the grape, in which case, we would have a Neolithic-era spread of a crop from India to the FC and beyond."
His whole assertion is this paper [A], where all the paper authors say is that grape could have been present in India before the presently accepted timeline, they don't say anything about India being home of the grape or even if grape spread out from India. IndiaFacts did quite a reach there just for proving supremacy of India.
So yeah again, a better site for your ignorant BS. It is better to not bring your level of discourse to this site.
[A] - http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Downloads/article_id_097_04_...
rest of your nit picking i will ignore since you seem to have accepted and not disputed the main claim of lankan agri well before the fertile crescent
Any other independent source for it?
(Also in flemish appelsien is used far more than sinaasappel).
Almost like orange-is-to-brown as pink-is-to-red. This is more apparent when looking at http://colorizer.org/ and choosing HSV colorspace with H==34, S==80, and varying V==[20,90].
EDIT: reverse pink/red.
an napron => an apron
a nauger => an auger
a nadder => an adder
And there's probably a bunch more for future centuries [1].
[1] https://eggcorns.lascribe.net/
[(xocalia + a'tl) => chocola-tl => chocolate => choco-] + [(al-kuhl => alcohol) + (-ique => -ic) => -holic] => chocoholic
which, having contributions from Nahuatl, Arabic, and Latin results in a word with morphemes originating in 3 distinct language families.
On the topic of article rebracketing, I also love "an eke-name" (an extra name) becoming "a nickname".
I'm not buying this. "eke" as "also" may give the sense "by-name", alright. What irks me is the lack of explanation of the rebracketing, which would appear like a mistake. But "nick of time" and the like would make a reanalysis as "short name" plausible, so not a mistake but a funny play of words.
"Alligator" is from Spanish "el lagarto" ("the lizard").
Tons of terms from Arabic include "al," the Arabic word for "the":
Alchemy, algorithm, algebra, alfalfa, alkaline, alcohol, alcove.
Rebracketing also leads to some interesting affix/root usage:
The root of "cybernetics" is "cybern," but "cyber" is frequently used to form related words.
"Helicopter" comes from "helix" ("spiral") and "pteron" ("wing"), but it is generally split into "heli"/"helo" and "copter" for the formation of related words.
On hearing the city name "Alexandria" in many places (most notably Egypt), Arabs assumed the start was the Arabic definite article: Al-exandria. In addition, they swapped the "k" and "s" sounds, in an inverse of the African-American Vernacular formation of "aks" from "ask", making the city name "Al-iskandaria". To complete the ridiculous chain, they then back-formed the historical figure's name from the cities named after him: Iskandar.
The "per" part of "nonper" originated from the Latin "par" meaning "even" which is also the root of the modern English words "parity" and the "par" in "par for the course".
"Nonper" then made it's way into Middle English as "noumpere", and "a noumpere" soon became "an oumpere" via re-bracketing. The word pair then evolved into "an oumper", which finally became "an umpire" in modern English.
Is that why gold fish are called gold fish - and not orange fish?
برتقالي
What's the word for "Portugal" in arabic? "bortughal" (that is also not a good transliteration)
برتغال
Arabic is my favorite.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%AA%D9%82%D8%A...
(via Greek, via Venetian!)
πορτοκάλι = Portokali = Orange
Πορτογαλία = Portogalia = Portugal
Interestingly, nobody eats the "narenj" directly. They usually squeeze its juice on a fish dish. It gives it a very nice flavour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_orange
I don't know if I've ever had it or not!
Edit: corresponding Farsi Wikipedia link: https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%86%D8%AC
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementine
Wow. And the company defends it as a “feminine rebellion”. I couldn’t make it though the post but the link is below.
https://m.facebook.com/katvond/posts/10155445610990454:0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A3cHzFQsqI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_leaf_grading#Orange_pekoe
The word "orange" is also used for the color, but not for the fruit (which is "apelsin")
> Alexander the Great dressed in robes, some “of crimson, some of purple, some of murrey, and some of orange colour velvet.” The translator is confident that “murrey” will be identifiable—it is a reddish purple, the color of mulberries—but he needs to add the noun “colour” after “orange” for its meaning to be clear.
I would read that as a list of things, each of which is a colour of velvet.
That is how the fruit "orange" is called in modern Hebrew