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Ask YC: What are starting salaries for CS grads this year?

45 points by iamelgringo ↗ HN
I'm curious to find out what grads from CS programs are getting offered. The last post by Spolsky seemed to say that MSFT is offering starting salaries close to 6 figures.

s this accurate? Can anyone corroborate? If you're graduating and have offers on the table, would you mind posting a ball-park figure of what you're getting offered? I'd love to hear it.

110 comments

[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 227 ms ] thread
rms
A friend of mine just took a menial enterprise programming job (in Pittsburgh) that is paying 55k. And I mean menial, it's converting legacy systems from Cobol to Java.
itay
I've seen offers from 75k to 95k (though the 95k was an outlier). Most were in the 80-85k for first tier companies.
tomjen
Just write a cobol to java compiler and be done with it.
NonEUCitizen
he may not have to write one himself:

  http://www.jazillian.com/howCOBOL.html
disclaimer: i don't know cobol and have never tried this.
rms
That is a consulting company, not a software product.
rms
I talked to him, he said that there are a bunch out there already and they'll be using them to aid in the process. But there's still work to be done, there are a lot of legacy systems that need to have optimized/readable code.
Raphael
But don't let on. Work on your startup with the new extra time.
adammichaelc
I think you should let on... first of all, it's honest (I know if I were the founder I would really want to keep an honest problem-solver happy and well-paid) and second of all what goes around comes around.
mrtron
The menial job is likely NOT a startup, and is a huge corporation that will not likely recognize your massive contribution.

I don't know that it is exactly good karma to not let on, but it would be something to consider.

Would you really give the honest problem-solver what they deserve though? The last project I did at a large company that saved the company a lot of time and money netted me a 10% raise. Probably less than 1% what I saved them per year.

suboptimal
Yeah, legacy COBOL probably equals "huge corporation." I assume, then, that there's an employment agreement covering this scenario.

It's an ethical dilemma, but in my opinion the fundamental right to earn a living (basic economic freedom) trumps the letter of an overly-restrictive contract, _if_ the employee's outside activities don't impact the employer in a material way. That's not law, that's just my opinion, and I realize it could be a bit of a slippery slope. However I just don't see how a company can own an employee's time away from work (again unless the employee is competing in the employer's direct line of business). See the work of Brandeis.

donw
$85k +/- 5k seems to be the average here out on the West Coast. I'm curious as to what the difference is for people with masters degrees or doctorates, though.
cperciva
I haven't seen anyone even suggest less than $100k for a newly minted doctorate in CS from a good university, and I've seen numbers in the $120k - $140k range thrown around. It sounds like East Coast hedge funds are even more generous.
menloparkbum
I have. HR knows that CS PhDs will work for peanuts because they've had their financial self-esteem slowly beaten out of them over the past five years. East Coast hedge funds mostly hire physics and applied math PhDs. Masters +10 PhD -30 but YMMV.
carterschonwald
is that supposed to be +30? else that doesn't make sense?
suboptimal
I think he means the PhDs have been flogged by academia longer than the Masters, who thus retain a modicum of self-worth.

I don't know about starting salaries, but DC-area hiring is plentiful, and you should be able to hit $100k in a few years (if not sooner). Of course if you want to be under the bright lights, and not spend your career backstage, then: Go west, young man.

cperciva
Clearly CS PhDs are different from CS DPhils. :-)
neilc
I think it depends on the job. If it doesn't take advantage of your research abilities, then a freshly-minted PhD (without other work experience) probably won't be paid too much more than a M. Sc. (less than an undergrad is plainly nonsense, though). But if you're taking a job at a place like MSR or IBM Research, not only is a PhD essentially a job requirement, but the starting salary is typically around $130k.
hugh
Wow, way to make me feel bad for being a postdoc! :(

(Computational physics, not CS, but still...)

cperciva
I worked as a postdoc for a while, too. The lower salary is the price to pay for having more freedom in our research (and freedom to publish). :-)
notauser
Here in the UK the starting salary for coders outside London is around $45k (+$5k for a masters).

However that is for a 37 hour working week. Most people can add 50% over basic in overtime (for 40% extra hours, due to premium rates).

Northern Mexico is about $30k which, compared to basic cost of living, equates to about $120k in California :)

immad
In London, CS grads at banks get around $80k. IT consultants get $60k. You can't really survive on much less than that in London :)
vilaca
do you mean £40 for grads and £30 for consultants?
immad
yeah approximately. And by consultants I mean grads that go and work for IT consultancies like Accenture, IBM, not grads that become consultants (which are relatively rare from my experience)
nuggien
I've seen it vary greatly here in the SF bay area. I've seen offers as low as 65k and as high as 95k. The two most important factors that decide where in the range you fall are the company making the offer, and the school you graduated from. You probably have a lot more leverage in asking for 5-10k extra if you are graduating from a place like stanford/berkeley as opposed to sjsu. But then again, 5-10k is nothing to a company if you are an impressive candidate.
jmzachary
That $5-10k delta could be made up within a year or two for a good developer coming from a non-namebrand CS school who puts his/her nose to the grindstone.
nuggien
That is true. Good engineers will always rise above the bad ones, regardless of what background they have. But we are talking about starting salaries here.
jmzachary
I understand that. And it's true that it is best to negotiate the highest starting salary as possible because most people, on average, will get a standard "cost of living" (whatever that means anymore) raise increase on an annual basis. But, I wanted to point out that there is definitely hope for non-namebrand CS program graduates, too.
menloparkbum
$80K +/- 5K at GOOG for Stanford grads and $85K at Amazon for a Berkeley grad.
mrtron
Roughly the same numbers for Waterloo grads at those places.
natch
For anyone wondering the other question, what about salaries for experienced developers, keep in mind the numbers others are sharing here are just what was asked for, -starting- salaries. After a few years, the salaries are much higher, but still under $150K. $130K plus options is pretty standard in the West Coast for an experienced developer with or without any degree. Seems to have jumped up some in the last couple years along with gas prices. Google, though, pays less.
culley
100k plus options. 10 yrs experience. NM. Nice House in city center $800 a month. 20 min commute. But no comparable companies to move to in town.
cousin_it
Wow, just wow. I live in Moscow and earn about 30K a year. 25 years old, 10 of them coding for money. Maths degree.
iamelgringo
Moscow's supposed to be about as expensive to live in as the Bay Area or Manhattan from what I've read. Rents here in the Bay area are around $1400 for a 1 bedroom apartment. What are they in Moscow?
cousin_it
I pay around $1300 for a 1 bedroom apartment. This is a bit on the high side, but I like living in the city center, in summer it's almost European.
tomh
Salaries for grads outside of Moscow are probably half that - I think PHP coders in Kharkov, Ukraine for example would be pretty happy with 12-15K. QA positions could be as low as 8-10K.

And $1300 for a 1-bedroom in Moscow center...what can I say you got off light. All my friends had to go through realtors for $2K places (2-3 rooms through) near Kitai-Gorod.

vtx
How about $5K for 2 years experience PHP developer in Dnepr, Ukraine. I work for this now and my motivation is lost completely. May be I will try to relocate. Now i see even in Dnepropetrovsk salary for html coder for $10K and php dev $14K, but they require strong knowledge of all what can imagine, even speaking english. My bad, need better education.
projectileboy
$30k + $1300/month rent?? Dang... Are other countries an option for you?
cousin_it
I lack the determination to pack up and move. :-( But I suspect I'll leave eventually. Don't know where.
apotheon
Sounds to me like prime motivation for a startup. If you're not getting paid much, you have more motivation to try something a little risky to improve your lot in life.
cousin_it
Hey, my lot in life isn't too bad! :-) I launched a non-profit project that's fairly important to me (http://openphotovr.org) this winter. Now thinking about starting something else, for money, not sure what exactly.
sethg
What do people in that part of Moscow tend to pay for food, utilities, taxes, transportation...?
dcurtis
In San Francisco, 1400 dollars will barely get you a studio (in the interesting parts of the city).
iamelgringo
Yeah, sorry, I should have said, "South Bay Area" when I was quoting rent prices. I'm assuming things would be quite a bit more expensive in Palo Alto or San Fran. My quote was also based on a new grad wanting to live in El-Cheapo rent districts. If someone wants to, they can certainly pay $2000 a month for a rather nice one bedroom with a concierge at the desk in the South Bay.
antiismist
You can get a studio in a nice part of town for a lot less than that.

Two years ago I had a great studio in downtown SF for $650. I can't imagine things have changed that much since then.

menloparkbum
You cannot get a studio for $650 in any part of san francisco, much less a nice part. Just go to craig's list and do a search for apartments less than $650. ZERO results show up.
andreyf
Manhattan ranges - 1br in the West Village goes for $1,950/month.
wallflower
Good article about the experience of finding apartments:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/24/garden/24new.html?n=Top/Re...

Manhattan had a very successful policy of encouraging diversity by apartment subsidies (Mitchell-Lama). Otherwise, you restrict the area to only those who can "afford" it. I heard recently about someone who sold their apartment back to their rent-subsidized apartment building. A 3br on the Upper West Side. For $12,000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell-Lama

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skavish
My guess is that after taxes, but in the US they are usually talking about salary before taxex. So basically your $30K is about $40K here.
apotheon
Are you saying that $30K is like $40K after taxes? It'd be closer to $55K, I think. Taxes are insane in the US (though nothing like northern Europe).
skavish
for a salary of $40K the taxes would be around 20-30% in the US depending on your family situation
jon_dahl
Total taxes in the US on a $40K salary for a single person with no other income and no other deductions: about $4,200 (10.5%). The marginal tax rate is higher, of course, and state taxes will add a little, but not too much.
cellis
haha I actually make 40K... i think its significantly higher than that. All told I think i'll be paying around 12K. (MI.)
mattmaroon
If you only make $40k and are paying 30% in taxes, you're doing something very wrong.
cellis
You are right. It was quite an exaggeration on my part. Its more like 21.5%.
mattmaroon
I've payed less than that in income tax on income much greater than that. Legally, that is. According to H&R's calculator, you should be paying under $5k, and thats with no dependents or other similar deductions.
dmnd
80k to start in 2009 at MSFT. Makes me think I should've thought more about inflation before signing.
simianstyle
I just graduated with a business degree, but I was hired at a startup in Boston as a Rails coder making $65K. I turned down an offer of $100k at a big corporation for obvious reasons.

I figured it's enough for me to live comfortably and continue to work on my side projects :)

csmajorfive
On this note, I have a question that I (as a new grad) don't know anything about. What are raises like? How often do they happen? How much? What does it take?
cstejerean
Raises? It's called changing jobs.
csmajorfive
I'm not sure what you're getting at -- should I change jobs when I feel like I'm due a better salary? Even if the job is awesome?
pchristensen
yes. raises tend tp ne 2-3%, You can get 10-15% or more for changing jobs
andreyf
You don't need to actually change jobs. If you get a better offer, you can tell your company that you feel you're being undervalued, and ask for a raise.

It's just money, so don't be shy.

hsu
I've been working for over 10 years, and I've found that most companies offer 2% - 5% raises, a little more if you are a super employee. The only ways to get more than a 10% raise are to change jobs or to use another job offer as a means to extract a counter offer from your current employer.
timcederman
As a new PhD grad, I got a raise after 6 months, and another (larger one) 6 months after that. Just ask for a performance review.
swombat
Don't count on quick raises from a very low salary unless you've explicitly discussed that with your boss or at your interview. In most places I've seen, they're happy to calculate raises using %, which means you get a whopping 20% raise on a £20k salary - which still amounts to peanuts (£24k is not much different from £20k).

Negotiate your starting salary as high as you can, and don't count on quick raises.

Here's a useful article on the topic from ever-helpful Rands:

http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2008/04/11/the_busines...

Daniel

utnick
haha ya... my first post grad programming job raise was smaller in $'s per hour than the raises I got as a lifeguard when I was 15 :(
CapnObvious
Any significant 'raise' will require you to either change jobs, or to get a new position within the current company that suddenly takes on a lot more responsibility, and even that will limit you to maybe 10%.

Get a bit of experience and start shopping around, that's how you'll know what you're worth.

Note that the real value of a salary is almost entirely dependent on your location and cost of living.

AndyKelley
Am I going to be screwed over because I go to Arizona State?
timcederman
It depends. If you're a rock star candidate, then no. If you're average to good, then probably yes.
Todd
Not at all. Unless you went to a top school, where you went to school becomes irrelevant after a few years. Where you worked and what you did become much more important.
jmzachary
Todd is right. After a couple of years, your school is much less important than what you've done with it during that time.
projectileboy
I would say that after a few years, even if you went to a top-flight school, no one cares. The only lasting benefit is the collection of connections that you made while you were there.
brianm
No, as someone doing a lot of interviewing lately, it really doesn't matter. YMMV, of course, I know more good programmers out of Drexel than Stanford, and am in Palo Alto!
phaedrus
In Oklahoma it seems to be more like $40K. :( When I went to make some job applications, I realized none of my professors gave any of the new CS graduates any advice on what salary to ask for. It's a moot point because I'm not convinced there are any CS jobs out here. I'm graduating top in my class, have 3 years experience working at a (folded) software development startup, and I've even done a NASA intership - and even with a resume like that I haven't even so much as gotten an interview yet: the job market out here is just so low-tech...
brianr
Sounds like it's time to move?
aceofaces
In the Tulsa area there is a high demand for CS types. I probably get a call once every two weeks wanting an interview. My company routinely has a need for Java devs. I know of 2 companies hiring Rails jobs right now. I think you need to look a bit harder. Oh, btw I have no degree, work in CS, and make 70K a year in Tulsa, OK.
utefan001
We may want to hire you. Email my yahoo address please.
goofygrin
There are a plethora of IT jobs in Tulsa and OKC. I know that where I'm consulting right now, one company they work with out of Tulsa likes to bring guys from Tulsa, pay them Tulsa salary and bill them at Dallas rates.

Now, the work likely isn't sexy. Look at the medical and oil/gas industry and start applying there.

And College doesn't teach you how to work in the real world. Why would you trust one of your college professors, who likely haven't worked at a "real" job in 20 years, with any advice relating to salary or real world type work?

fool
Academia, of course, gives you entirely different salaries. For an Assistant Prof. job at a good university you are looking at ~65,000 +/- 10k depending on location. This of course is supposed to be for 9 months, but good luck telling your tenure review committee you didn't do any work during the summers. Word is lucrative part-time consulting gigs can be had if you are enterprising. It looks as if you are at about 1/2 of what an industrial lab will pay. But then if you are in the academy, supposedly you care more about freedom than money.
yummyfajitas
Salary for the summer comes from grants. Universities like it that way, it gives you good motivation to go bring home the bacon.

By the way, even your salary number seems low. Perhaps your numbers include teaching colleges?

As for summers, they are also a good time to build a startup. Most tenure review committees don't mind that sort of thing.

hugh
I've heard of offers as low as $48K for assistant professors in biological sciences. That's at a real PhD-granting research university, though admittedly not a particularly good one. Even lower for fields like English and History. Higher for hard sciences, and even higher for CS.
ible
The CRA Taulbee Survey (http://www.cra.org/statistics/) has detailed info on CS faculty salaries in the US and Canada. 2005-2006 9-month salaries for a new PhD in CS with a tenure track position ranged from $70k to $99k with $82k median. Of course, you have to get one of those positions first. PhD production has been at record levels in North America for a few years now. It seems lots of people decided to go to grad school after the bubble burst. The survey has incredible detail including, for instance, how many positions opened up as a result of people dying!
azsromej
For Atlanta, salary.com says 53-56K; median for Georgia Tech in 2007 was 60K. This is in line with anecdotal evidence I've culled.
mpc
60~70 in Cambridge/Boston. There are some major companies here (Google, Microsoft, ITA) that probably offer more to really good hacker candidates.
lunchbox
Try salary.com for statistics on this. -- enter "Software Engineer I" or "web developer".
wallflower
So if we take into account cost-of-living adjustments (ignoring quality of life +/- adjustments), the average starting salary is around $50K
tonyvt2005
In D.C. it's about 55-65, but if you have clearance it can go 5-10 more.
fishhead
dallas 65
goofygrin
I think that's likely high (I'm in Dallas and have some experience in the last couple years with recruiting college people).

I'd say the average is around 50k, only people with real experience getting more than that. Some companies are paying higher, but they are turning around and billing them out at a stupid high rate (EDS I'm looking at you).

matthavener
I'd agree, the average is 50 but any decent grad should be able to grab 60-65
fishhead
I'm an ms grad so probably you're right.
lyime
Friend just got offered 90K from both Adobe and Amazon. Got rejected from Google and MSFT. Has had quite a few good internships.
humanlever
According to Fortune's best places to work (http://tinyurl.com/3dofj9), Adobe isn't a bad gig.

You can use the same list to see what people are making at different companies and what kinds of perks they're getting. i.e. A software developer at the SAS Institute pulls down $104,566/yr.

aggieben
In 2005, I had two offers upon finishing my master's: one in Austin for $61K and one in the Dallas area for $64K.

My officemate took an offer in Baltimore for $75K-ish, I think.

ia
did you have any professional experience prior to that? i graduated in 05 with a ba in english, but will have my MS in CS in early 09 (so it'll have been about 3.5yrs of CS)... my professional experience is limited, so i anticipate a weird situation where i'm looking for jobs that i seem over qualified for (on paper) but may be under qualified for because i don't have the 3-5 years professional experience required...
aggieben
I've had that problem before too. It's just the basic bootstrapping problem of starting a career that everyone goes through.

To answer your question, my only professional experience before finishing school was through internships, including one at Microsoft which I am sure has opened doors for me (although I can't be sure which ones), and my graduate assistantship.

hbien
starting at 50-60 in San Diego, CA, graduated from UCSD. Mostly from web programming jobs (php, rails, and java).
iamelgringo
Wow. And living in San Diego is expensive, too. Probably a lot more expensive than in Dallas or Austin that have comparable salaries.
jomunculus
I'll let you know. I'm currently outsourcing my education to a 20 year old in Bangalore. If all goes well I'll have my BS in CS by the end of 2009 and at a huge savings.
jon_dahl
Man - my first job out of college was $16/hour. That's what I get for majoring in philosophy.
monological
my buddy just got a job in san jose w/ a salary around ~$86K