Ask HN: What are the websites that you rely on but have horrible UI?

55 points by bearwithclaws ↗ HN
I love travelling and use Wotif.com a lot to find great hotel deals. The things is, Wotif has horrible user interface. For example, if you go to its homepage, you need to do multiple scrolling to select your destination on a country list with the size of 1 inch. Another example is airline websites, but thankfully this has been solved with Hipmunk (yay!).

So I'm asking you guys here if you share any frustrations with me on the websites that have really bad UI but we need to use it anyway. I hope this post will inspire these companies to either fix their UI, or more likely, somebody starts something better to replace them.

Thank you.

148 comments

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TripAdvisor. Terrible UI in that everything was too green and too dense. It used to be especially hard to use on the iPhone.

If it were me, the mobile use case would be among the first I'd solve for a travel site, but it took them some time to get around to it.

Meanwhile, you'd load up Trip Advisor on Mobile Safari and get either browser pop-ups or worse, content-obscuring overlay ads you had to swipe around the screen to dismiss. (Best part: these popups were trying to sell me airline tickets for the town I was already in.)

It became so bad I just stopped using Trip Advisor, but I endured it for awhile every time I traveled. Now I use travel guides and other sources.

I think when you're talking about the mobile site you're probably referring to when they didn't have a mobile site yet. Over the year they've released an actual mobile website.

I do agree that the full site ads are pretty annoying, and the mobile site has its issues, but it's more usable than what it was before (which was the full site on mobile).

Yeah, I was using it on iPhone before they had a proper, mobile-optimized site.

And wow, just tried it out. Much easier to use than muddling through the full site before.

Maybe I'll give them a try again. I was turned off by their aggressive sales pitches.

Trip Advisor also has this weird thing where the reviews are in pages of three.
Slightly off on a tangent here, but with the recent influx of Digg users to Reddit there's been an unusual amount of chatter over there about usability. The newbies seem to think Reddit is ugly and hard to navigate, whereas the old-timers think of it as spartan and utilitarian.
Ugly? maybe. Hard to navigate? I don't know how you could make it any easier. Maybe making everything bigger?
My bank's website. For example to get my account statement, I have to select which company I want, which account I want and what type of statement I want. Even though I have exactly one company, exactly one account for it and exactly one possible statement I can ask for.
Seconded, at least for my Chase accounts. Credit unions' websites are often much better than your average BigCo bank (ex: https://www.becu.org/).
HN? :-)

If Reddit is "Spartan but functional", HN is positively Hittite. "We'll impale you on an iron stake and let you die slowly outside the city gates if you don't like it" user friendliness.

Oh well, at least it keeps the barbarians out.

What is horrible about it? It doesn't get in your way and allows you to post quickly. This is the only place I've engaged in online conversation for years and that's because it's just so quick and simple. Compared to forums and commenting on blogs & entering captcha's it's very usable!
Have you ever tried using HN on a mobile device?

I've been tempted to hack up yet another iOS app for HN, but A. I don't have the time to do it in what i would call the Right Way(tm) -- or a Hacked-Up Way(tm) either and B. it would really be better off as a separate style than a separate app.

Yes. I have a Nokia E51, it's just a standard T9 phone with wifi / 3g, as I don't need anything fancy. I've loaded HN on it and can skim the articles for anything interesting when I'm out and about. True I wouldn't write a comment, but it works fine for me for what I need.
I use http://ihackernews.com for mobile and it is very readable. The same developer wrote ViewText, which is a nice readability bookmarklet.
I often browse HN on my android phone (as I am now) with no problems. Page automatically resizes to fit the screen, works nicely.
I like most of the HN interface. The one part I really hate is that when you click the Reply button, most of the context you are replying to, excepting only the direct parent comment, disappears. This is really irritating, and HN is the ONLY site that I visit that does this.
I would agree on that point. Yes, that is my one annoyance.
That might be on purpose. The HN commenting interface is meant to discourage back-and-forth arguments.
The problem is that it makes it hard to summarize a set of arguments; for example, to focus on points of agreement or disagreement. Which I think tends to encourage back-and-forth arguments.
How often have you mis-clicked on an down arrow instead of an up arrow (or vice versa)?

Have you ever asked someone who's not a regular to upvote something? That's obviously not something that should be done (but I guess we all sin sometimes... call it a wild unruly youth), but if you do, you'll find that most people don't even see the voting arrows, let alone figure out what they mean.

If advanced users still make fairly critical usage errors because of small, opposite buttons right next to each other, and newbies can't learn the fundamentals of the interface, i'd say that makes it fairly bad.

On the other hand, as I said, it keeps the barbarians out.

Maybe that improves the results. Your score is not a straight up vote from everyone, it's just a sampling from the subset of HN users that can figure out what the buttons do.
> it's just a sampling from the subset of HN users that can figure out what the buttons do

Or those who don't experience layout problems. Often there is a significant part of the down arrow that results in an upvote or vice versa. Generally happens in FF for me. I feel like I need to check the URL before clicking.

I can use my mouse, I haven't managed to misclick once.
Why do some people have down arrows?
You gain the ability to downvote once you've crossed a certain karma threshold.
Take a look at your settings page sometime. Would you have any idea what notifo, showdead, noprocrast, maxvisit, minaway, and delay meant if you didn't look them up or goof around until you figure out what they do?
I haven't really looked at them no - I guess I haven't needed to because it just works?
Yeah, I learned my lesson from randomly putting high numbers in there :(
New HN user here, and I still have no clue. I even looked for mouseover text. :-(
you have no idea how glad I am that HN doesn't look like StackOverflow or Digg
Oh, I do. As I said, it keeps the barbarians out of the city gates.
I'm new to Hacker News, I've been searching but couldn't find the "save story" or "favourite" button
Stories you upvote are saved in your profile.
Absolutely agree: HN's UI is bad.

I'm not talking about ugly or beautiful, I'm talking about very specific usability problems. For example, it's very hard to tell when someone replies to you, which means I would just drop out of conversations if they didn't appear on my "threads" page. (Although there is a solution nowadays, notifo). HN also has problem with the voting, like being unable to change votes, etc.

That said, HN still rocks. Does the incredibly limited UI have anything to do with it? I don't know. But I wouldn't mess around with HN too much: why mess with something that works?

No - I think it is minimalistic, not bad. At one level the need to check your comments to see who has replied to you seems bad - but the resulting behavior patterns it results in seems quite productive to me.
Really the only thing I don't like about HN's UI is how the comment lines aren't formatted to a readable width -- they run about twice as wide as a standard book line and maybe 4/3 as long as a normal online article.

What's more, comments are really difficult to read on a mobile phone, which is surprising, given that they are basically just plain text which should have the virtue of being easily reworkable.

That said, HN rocks, so I can't complain too much.

I would argue that it's hard to tell when someone replies at all.

While I appreciate minimalism I think the comments page is lacking. Let me preface my complaint with the fact that HN is probably the only site I visit frequently, due to the quality of posts and commenters.

My biggest complaint is this: I enjoy reading the comments of submissions, oftentimes more than the submissions themselves. It's really frustrating to read a post with many comments in the morning (lets say, 40), then come back at lunch and browse the same comments when there are more (say, 45 - I often leave interesting posts open in tabs to look at later). Obviously these numbers are arbitrary - think of 10 new comments on a page with 100 or more! Without a clear indication of what is new after a page refresh, I have to re-read every comment and compare post times (or effectively recall reading that comment previously) in order to see what's new. Compounding that is that the post order can change.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of anything that can be done to fix this. To me, that is a usability defect. Enough for me to stop visiting? No!

> Unfortunately, I'm not aware of anything that can be done to fix this.

For logged-in users, Scoop (Kuro5hin's software) keeps track of when you last visited a comments thread, and displays a [new] next to all comments posted since that timestamp.

I love the way HN looks and feels.
HN feels quite usable to me. The only problem is the few remaining links based on closures (x?fnid=...), because they expire and it's just dumb. I may be mistaken, but I think closure-based links have been slowly phased out over the lifetime of HN, and now they seem to be used only for "more" and "logout". Why not throw them away completely?

About possible enhancements: ajaxifying the "reply" link, as billswift suggested, would help. Ajaxifying the "edit" and "delete" links would definitely help. LW does both and it's much more convenient. Making the vote buttons light up on hover would make the interface feel more consistent, because links already react to hover.

One thing HN does very right (compared to Reddit and LW) is that users' "comments" pages are threaded, not flat.

CiteSeer.

I spend most of my non-work hours there and it's horribly broken. Case in point, I just went there now to tally the most visible aspects of its brokenness, turns out it's down, again.

Yeah, CiteSeer is horribly broken. ArXiv is mostly for crackpot physics and has a tiny CS/EE index. What else? I refuse to pay ACM, Springer, or IEEE.

Google Scholar just .. looks "search enginey" and doesn't have the summary bar with citations, years, etc. Also, it heavily links to the above "resources" that I refuse to pay for.

CiteULike is just as lame as CiteSeer in terms of UI, but lacks the info-bar on the side, and adds crappy social elements.

CiteSeer gets the caching right though, which is why I keep going back to it.

arXiv is not just for crackpot physics. A lot of the papers on arXiv are there to allow wide access to science research that would otherwise not be possible with the prohibitive cost of journal subscriptions. I know several fantastic physicists and major international collaborations that publish on arXiv 6 months before the paper is published in a journal.

It's true that you need to be an expert in the field to tell the crackpots from the experts, but if you don't understand enough of the paper to tell whether it is realistic or not then you probably will not gain very much from reading it.

Oh, I stand corrected then.

I discovered ArXiv over a decade ago, but from early on, it was filled with people of questionable insight, if not sanity, and I began to avoid it. There are some notorious USENET trolls who used it to build their credibility, and it kept me away since.

It's got no data quality checks, so you need to use it with caution, but something like http://arxiv.org/list/hep-ex/recent is a really nice tool for High Energy Physics (you can see quite a few of the first results from the LHC there, for example, without paying any journal subs.)

But it's a much better academic tool than a commercial one, and I would not be surprised that a lot of cranks put stuff up there and claim respectability by association, especially in theory or mathematics.

Actually, getting your paper into arXiv isn't that easy - IIRC, it essentially requires you to work at a university.
I think that you must register as being present at an institution, but I am not sure how strongly they check that information. Maybe they take your subs off if you are caught lying, but what are the chances of being caught?
??? "ArXiv is mostly for crackpot physics" ???

The entire string theory community publishes all their papers on hep-th before sending sending them to journals (which nobody reads as everything is on ArXiv). Of course, maybe you will argue that string theory is crackpot physics...

Craigslist. In spite of the UI, it's still the best place to locally buy/sell used stuff within the US.

It has been like this for years though, so at this point I doubt they'll make any significant changes to the user interface.

They recently made changes, but I really love the simplicity of the UI. Minimalist. What is it that really makes it a poor UI, lack of gradients or lack of ajax. I think it does what its supposed to do exactly how it should be done.
it takes too much of my time to do simple tasks
GoDaddy.

I was going to cite some specific examples but really the entire site is a perfect case study for bad UI.

On the other hand, it is extremely well optimized for revenue (but that's a different discussion).

I hate when I have to do anything on Godaddy. It might be optimized for revenue, but I find the added steps so they can upsell very annoying. I've been using namecheap a lot more lately and their UI is not much better, but I'm able to do what I need to do much faster.
It would be nice if GoDaddy had an option for your account like: "I'm never ever going to buy a shopping cart, or email addresses, or any of that other stuff from you, just take me right to the payment page, please."
Just finished transferring all my domain names to NameCheap for that very reason -- I got tired of sifting through tens of pages with links in various font sizes to find that ever-elusive DNS setting ... among other things.
Although NameCheap's website is also horrible. I mean now that I know my way around I can get stuff done, but to say that it's busy/cluttered is an understatement. I've never had any problems with them though, so I'm stickin' with 'em.
www.teamliquid.net

everything is forum style with a shitty forum implementation :/

All the banking sites I have used have highly unusable UI. The same with my mobile and broadband service provider websites.

Sometimes it is just not about the UI. I can live without the best looking websites, but if the functionality is equally broken as the UI, then it is really frustrating. One of my biggest pet peeves is the back button not working in many websites. Many systems just tell you to log in again and it just freaks me out.

Lucky you don't use my bank: it might just tip you over the edge :). Not only does the back button not work (most of the time), but they've also specifically added back-button detection so they can tell you why:

For security reasons you’re unable to use the Back, Forward and Refresh buttons in your browser.

Uh, ok...

Commonwealth Bank?
Yep. The NetBank project also seems to have involved every second developer in Sydney at some point or another.
Ah, NetBank is not so bad. You can get the basic stuff done without any hassle at all (transfers, BPAY, etc.)
Yeah, I don't find NetBank too bad. It's just the back button issue that's a pain.
NetBank is pretty great in terms of online banking!
How often do you log into your carrier or ISP websites? I don't think I have ever visited their websites, much less be bothered by the UI.
How do you pay your bills then?
Monthly direct debit / monthly credit card tx, like any sane person.
If it's a completely flat rate (my ISP), I do that, but if it's a variable rate (like mobile phone), I like to be able to see what they're trying to charge me before I pay it, so I can catch/dispute any weird charges. Especially so in the past year or two, where fraudulent third-party charges on my mobile bill seem to be getting more common.
Oh god - don't get me started. I have one that enforces a crazily long password and then asks you for characters taken at specific locations from this password.

Which means that every time I log in I either end up scribbling down my password on a bit of paper or typing it into an editor window.

I refuse to believe this actually improves the level of security.

You could use Wells Fargo instead - they limit you to 14 characters, which isn't even what I would consider a medium length password.
I'm guessing that he's talking about Barclays in the UK. There the only one's i know who do this.
The Royal Bank of Scotland does this too, though they don't enforce crazy long passwords.
Lloyds TSB in the UK, too.
HSBC do this, but limit you to 10 digits
The reason for this is that they use the same password in the call centre. So when you phone up they say "give us the 3rd letter of your password" and the 2nd digit of your Pin Number. The point of it is to make it hard for a call centre operator to get hold of your password. The internet banks are all built on top of the Direct Bank systems and ported that model in whole or in part to the internet. Legacy systems issue!
This.

Another thing that gets to me is trying to check my credit card balance on the Bank of America "Mobile Site". The only number it will show me is the sum of the transactions that have cleared - it's impossible to see my "available credit" (or the information necessary to figure it out) which is probably the only thing I would ever care about on the mobile site.

Of course my completely unscientific tests seem to indicate that the standard, non-mobile site is significantly faster than the mobile one on my N1 in any case... So I'm stuck using that atrocity instead.

Oh, and don't forget Bank of America's Android/iPhone apps, which, last I checked, were just WebViews around their website.

The all-time worst I've ever experienced is Korea Exchange Bank.

It only works in MSIE. You have to install a panoply of ActiveX controls. You have to install a "keyboard security" device driver (ha!).

Then, for an actual transaction involving funds transfer, it's a long-winded, 15-20 step process requiring so many layers of authentication that the typical person keeps an unsecured document around detailing what to enter on each step.

I'd kill for plain old HTTPS.

Major Chinese banks are about the same. The best part is that the ActiveX controls are optimized for IE6 (seriously) since various security settings in IE7+ prevent them from working.

Yes, the controls for added security only work with lower security settings. We keep around an dusty old Windows XP machine in the house just for using these websites.

AMEN! I never thought a website would be a competitive advantage for a bank, but I am actually switching all my accounts to Wells Fargo because their interface is mediocre (compared to Chase's which is horrendous). I have over a dozen bank accounts, and even more credit cards, between personal and businesses. It's an exponential increase in UI confusion with each account.
Blackboard, at every university.
I really believe this market is ripe for disruption. Like right now.
The problem is that as soon as you are any threat to them, they'll either sue you (they have a ton of e-learning related patents) or buy you. Not sure you want to go into that area.
Our University recently switched to Moodle, which is an open source competitor.
My university tried to write their own. But then each faculty decided they didn't like it and then wrote THEIR own.

Now I have to log into about 5 different systems to get anything done.

So did ours. The problem is that most faculty hates it. You need to realize that most professors are quite set in their ways and have been using Blackboard for years, so they're opposing the full roll-out. Even some of the I.T. Faculty want to stick with Blackboard.
Same reason our University had such a hard time switching from Internet Explorer, and is still stuck on Windows XP. Most faculty members are not power users and they want to stick with what they know, no matter how crappy it is.
Is this what's keeping all the e-learning UIs so crappy and 1990s-looking? That's sad.
:) Recently acquired by Bb (from Elluminate). Not a user of the software so I can't really comment on that, I'm a Web guy. My Wife uses it and does occasionally complain to me now that I work for Bb, as if I could do something about it. I like the team that I work with though, good people.
Is Blackboard still horrible? I mean I know my University uses some old obscure version of Blackboard which is right out of the 90s, but judging by the blackboard website right now, it looks like their current UI might not be so bad. Too bad you can't find any sort of information about their products from the website - all they want is for you to call them.
Not only is the UI bad and filled with popups, frames and java-based security features, a friend of mine had to take a web-based test through the blackboard system and the test was all based on JavaScript - You could actually find out the correct answers by viewing the page source!
Several of the TV shows I watch put the episodes online (which is great), but the websites invariably fall short in the way they organise those videos and the rest of the site. They are definitely popular in spite of their UI, not because users "unconciously" prefer it.
Which TV sites do you not like and which do you consider good UI?

I am currently working on a video site, and looking for suggestions.

Paypal. Trying to find anything is a 10 minute exercise in spelunking through at least 10 different pages.
It's also way too slow.
Every single credit card gateway's web interface I've used.
Perhaps unrelated, but I've always wondered why http://www.authorize.net/ insists on generously using 1990s-style stock clipart all over their site. Does the picture of the lady with the headset really make their operation that much more trustworthy?

Not to mention, anything with this sort of clipart now automatically looks like spam/domain landing page to my eyes.

I think "stock photography" is the phrase you're looking for.

> Does the picture of the lady with the headset really make their operation that much more trustworthy?

Actually, yes. I would definitely bet that that style of corporate stock photography is what their target audience associates with "trustworthy".

Sad thing is, Auth.net is one of the better interfaces I've seen lately...
Slashdot! Especially on iPhone/iPads. It randomly switches between normal and some large font special rendering for no apparent reason. The comments interface is barely usable on these devices too - no drag/drop of the comments filtering threshold, expanding a hidden comment on the ipad scrolls you off a mile down the page, fortunately with a small arrow showing the chosen comment when you scroll back up to find it....

And the ajax interface is so intertwined with the generated HTML I can't see an easy way to write a decent native app...

And trying to google for anyone else's thoughts on the matter just leads to more slashdot stories...

I'm so happy to have found HN for a sane browsing experience! (Not just the usability!)

I agree on the Slashdot iPad issue. Expanding a hidden comment is useless.
DNS Made Easy

You can't use the back button and you can't open links in a new tab/window

Yup. Their website is totally DNS Made Hard. Furthermore, delete removes all records by domain name. So if you have aliases, you have to type them in all over again.
Spires (http://www.slac.stanford.edu/spires/) is a difficult search box to use. Everyone I know uses the "Easy Search" option on that page. It's just my hunch, but if you need to have a non-default "easy" option for searching, you're probably doing it wrong.

However, the info aggregation at Spires is amazing and it's more or less an essential tool in High Energy Physics.

The most (and it has ben decades) badass UI of the web is the sun Java website which keeps you from downloading the right sdk/jde/jee/bleh in under 10 minutes !

edit: I'm complaining about their multiple bundles that make no sense at all , at least for me.

Don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth and I still love the product, but Google Docs hasn't improved all that much since it launched. I loved Etherpad when it came out, then I was really excited when Google bought Etherpad... but they haven't implemented some of the basic stuff Etherpad had.

Still love GDocs and I'm really hesitant to complain about something I'm getting for free - but I do think they're playing with fire here a little bit if Google actually cares about the online document space. If they don't improve GDocs, someone's going to come take that market share from them, and Etherpad already showed a few easy improvements to make.

What are some specific problems you have with GDocs? I see a small bug once in a while, but nothing major.
I was using Chrome and imported a .doc into GDocs a week ago. A ton of words were marked misspelled; it was internally seeing "wor d" instead of "word". Deleting and retyping the words didn't help.
Pivotal Tracker.
Windows live mail
I'll second all the bank comments. My own bank is horrible and has no way of escaping from statement view without logging back in (same with print friendly pages).

Of all the others, the one that got me most recently was Skype. Trying to upgrade my account, I spent a good half hour trying to figure out which links did what (some go to help, others to order pages). It's never entirely clear that you are buying what you think you are until you get to final payment page.

Hotmail, even after its recent Gmaily redesign.

I find all the View options distract my eye from the Actions that I am more often looking for, and I still find it clunky and too time consuming to use easily. I'm only still on there for old contacts who don't have my gmail address.