Health should be separate from commerce. It's messed up to refuse to exchange scientific information that could save a lot of lives to get more bargaining power, but it's also messed up if some entity takes that information and internationally patents a vaccine so they could sell it for ungodly high prices.
Does the timing even make sense for attributing the delay to trade tensions? If theyve delayed for more than a year, those tensions were not at their present level a year ago.
The article says that scientists fear that trade tensions will worsen the problem, not that the problem sprang up out of the ether a couple of months ago.
The problem that sprang up out of the ether is the trade war and the subsequent very blatant propaganda war. Note that I'm not saying there is no problem here, but the fact that the story lay dormant and pops up now is not a coincidence. At the very least some NY Times editors thought it was relevant and opportune to shout into the echo chamber right this moment (and the same here, for posting it).
While I'm not sure why Chinese government is not sharing the virus, I really don't like the way the article is written.
The entire article is about guessing the reasons and developing a conspiracy (even the relation to trade war). No response so far from the official channel of Chinese government.
Also for this section:
>> The Chinese government has refused to share clinical data from infected patients, according to scientists[1], and claims to have all but eradicated H7N9 through a single poultry vaccination campaign.
> No response so far from the official channel of Chinese government.
So? Do they ever respond to anything? At the core of a communist regime is secrecy. They seldom respond to any request for information or allegations, and when they do respond to anything, it is usually by way of exerting (physical) force or a war.
I am posting anonymously here because of all the toxicity of this comment. Take away "Chinese" from his argument and he still has an argument. Your comment on the other hand, is just throwing your emotions around. I suspect other commenters downvote him for the same reason. I find this every time an article about China comes up. Its infuriating because there is not legitimate discussion going on. It simply a downvoting war.
That accusation doesn't hold up at all when we look at the data. Indeed you could easily know that for yourself by looking at the histories of most HN accounts that post on the topic. The "50 Cent Party" didn't show up in 2014 to argue about Emacs so they could astroturf HN today. (I'm making that example up, but it's typical.)
This is really just a cheap shot, and there's a site guideline that specifically asks you not to: "Please don't impute astroturfing or shillage. That degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about it, email us and we'll look at the data."
What's true is: (1) HN users are divided on divisive topics, such as political questions surrounding China, so opposing views naturally show up here; and (2) HN commenters need to post substantively, avoid flamewars, and follow the rules at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
This steps into nationalistic flamewar, which is not allowed here. Both sides routinely accuse each other of dominating HN. Such comments add no information and provoke worse from others. Indeed, they're just another move in the flamewar.
> Unlike the US government which is completely sane and trustworthy
Compared to the Chinese government, yes. Competitive governments are more transparent and less corrupt than dictatorships. If one divides the world into binary categories of “never lies” and “has ever lied,” sure, both Beijing and D.C. lie. But in frequency and magnitude, the former knocks it out of the park.
It's not about lying. It's about using weapons of mass destruction. Only one country did this. Twice.
It was not China. You guys are just used to the devil you know, and scared of the devil you don't know. I am also in a way. But worrying about China having a virus? What do you think the US have?
Both China and US will blame any virus on someone else if it comes out to play.
Just to correct the record, several nations have used poison gas both in combat and against civilians.
The USA used 2 atomic bombs on dual civilian/military targets in WW2 after Japan refused to surrender, but there were also firestorms started by multiple countries using conventional bombs.
I don't see what's conspiratorial when it identifies several recent examples of governments doing exactly what the scientists they've interviewed speculate is happening here. If we followed your standard, the Chinese government would be able to get away with anything without scrutiny indefinitely simply by refusing to respond to inquiries.
An argument can be made that China is violating the International Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention. By withholding the samples they are at least constructively stockpiling a lethal pathogen; with full knowledge this action can (and likely will) result in the loss of many lives. The appropriate response is to announce travel restrictions on all travelers originating from China, effective in 30 days. I expect that announcement will dislodge the samples quickly, assuming the present media coverage doesn't already do so.
UPDATE: The virus can (may not necessarily) have a 40% mortality rate says the article below. One would therefore expect the US will obtain samples by other means. At a minimum birds don't recognize borders.
> One would therefore expect the US will obtain samples by other means
From the article:
”At least four research institutions have relied upon a small group of H7N9 samples from cases in Taiwan and Hong Kong. (All four asked not to be identified for fear of further straining ties.)”
That said, a travel ban on travelers originating from or having recently been to China is too harsh. Mandatory quarantines (with the costs of such quarantine being the responsibility of the traveler) would be more prudent.
I think the travel ban is meant to be punitive as much as it is a quarantine. I think the way the OP was suggesting it was travel restrictions to or from a country refusing to cooperate with treaties. Implemented in 30 days, not anyone who has traveled to China within 30 days.
They may be withholding physical samples, but some sequence data appears to have been released[1(eight segments of the virus from one patient),2(sequences from the last ten years)]. Sequence data like this is helpful for genomic epidemiology—modeling how the virus evolves over time and across geographic regions, as well as for investigating the potential functional impact of mutations.
stockpiles are not required if you have the RNA sequences of the virus...
to make matters worse influenza is understood to the extent that any sophomore bio undergrad has the knowledge to create a nasty version, whether they know it or not...the big hurdle is the equipment which is not intrinsically expensive to build, and the biochemical reagents required e.g. restriction enzymes...
> At least four research institutions have relied upon a small group of H7N9 samples from cases in Taiwan and Hong Kong
So why can't Taiwan send a sample?
>The Office of the United States Trade Representative in April released a proposed list of products to be targeted for tariffs — including pharmaceutical products such as vaccines, medicines and medical devices.
Well then, what did you expect? That China do nothing?
37 comments
[ 4.5 ms ] story [ 37.7 ms ] threadThe entire article is about guessing the reasons and developing a conspiracy (even the relation to trade war). No response so far from the official channel of Chinese government.
Also for this section:
>> The Chinese government has refused to share clinical data from infected patients, according to scientists[1], and claims to have all but eradicated H7N9 through a single poultry vaccination campaign.
[1]: Citation needed.
So? Do they ever respond to anything? At the core of a communist regime is secrecy. They seldom respond to any request for information or allegations, and when they do respond to anything, it is usually by way of exerting (physical) force or a war.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
This is really just a cheap shot, and there's a site guideline that specifically asks you not to: "Please don't impute astroturfing or shillage. That degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about it, email us and we'll look at the data."
What's true is: (1) HN users are divided on divisive topics, such as political questions surrounding China, so opposing views naturally show up here; and (2) HN commenters need to post substantively, avoid flamewars, and follow the rules at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Compared to the Chinese government, yes. Competitive governments are more transparent and less corrupt than dictatorships. If one divides the world into binary categories of “never lies” and “has ever lied,” sure, both Beijing and D.C. lie. But in frequency and magnitude, the former knocks it out of the park.
It was not China. You guys are just used to the devil you know, and scared of the devil you don't know. I am also in a way. But worrying about China having a virus? What do you think the US have?
Both China and US will blame any virus on someone else if it comes out to play.
The USA used 2 atomic bombs on dual civilian/military targets in WW2 after Japan refused to surrender, but there were also firestorms started by multiple countries using conventional bombs.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
UPDATE: The virus can (may not necessarily) have a 40% mortality rate says the article below. One would therefore expect the US will obtain samples by other means. At a minimum birds don't recognize borders.
https://www.livescience.com/63448-china-h7n9-flu-samples-pan...
From the article:
”At least four research institutions have relied upon a small group of H7N9 samples from cases in Taiwan and Hong Kong. (All four asked not to be identified for fear of further straining ties.)”
That said, a travel ban on travelers originating from or having recently been to China is too harsh. Mandatory quarantines (with the costs of such quarantine being the responsibility of the traveler) would be more prudent.
1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/?term=Influenza+A+virus...)
2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/?term=(%22H7N9%20subtyp...)
why not?
So why can't Taiwan send a sample?
>The Office of the United States Trade Representative in April released a proposed list of products to be targeted for tariffs — including pharmaceutical products such as vaccines, medicines and medical devices.
Well then, what did you expect? That China do nothing?