Ask HN: Washed up at 40 when you're crazy?
I've managed a dozen datacenters, implemented CFEngine, Chef, Puppet, Salt. I've started 2 failed web apps, a boutique bicycle company, a successful "devops" consulting company that I sold, and a dns company that I sold.
I'm also crazy, bi-polar 2, and have burned many, many bridges. I'm unable to learn to code at this point, I'm unable to focus on anything for more than 10 minutes at a time, and that's a good day. I've tried most attention drugs, meditation, every other armchair psychology technique you might suggest. I'm just incapable of becoming more than just another old sysadmin who writes shell script and a cut and paste coder.
I was fired from my last job for daring to ask my boss to narrow the $50k gap between me and everybody else in my team who had the same title as me. I was desperate to find a job and had to accept an insultingly low salary.
Now I've applied to about 500 positions with exactly 5 responses. 2 lead to embarassing coding interviews with 22 year old children. The other 3 were polite "go away, old men".
What do you do when you're too old to learn like a 20 year old kid, you're too worn down to pimp yourself out, and you can't deep throat a shotgun because you have a kid to support?
68 comments
[ 4.7 ms ] story [ 126 ms ] threadYou need to focus a bit on yourself and apply some fixes. You say experience and connections but also talk about too many burned bridges and interviews that seem to suggest that your experience may not be good enough.
If you are talking about being burned out it suggests not only some physiological problems but also not feeling like doing it (psychological). If you get low pay and you despise what you're doing maybe try looking for something that you would enjoy? 40 is not end of the world. You can dive into a new thing at 60 and 70 if you keep trying to make some use of your brain.
I know that it's all very difficult when you need to keep providing for your family and focusing on them too instead of just being able to take a few months off to try to sort yourself out, but difficult position is where you already are, so what's left is trying to figure out how to get out of it.
Only you know your situation well enough, so get an hour of peace, take a piece of paper, think about what you don't like about the place where you are currently and think about solutions that you can implement to help yourself. If you think you can be useful at any job then you need some problem solving skills - start with this problem.
Hack around, if you get 1% response to your CV then look at how other CVs look like. Make it more like them. Heck, post a job offer and see what candidates look like.
And remember that sleep is super important.
Sysadmins job changed a lot. If you are somewhat decent, you already know how to code. So you could try applying as full stack coder instead.
And try to look past the age barrier. If they invited you, then the age is not the problem. But if you psychologically despise the fact that some kids interview you, your body will send signals to them about that. Regardless of your competence there will be lack of rapport, poor communication and unwillingness to cooperate.
Shit could be worse. Good luck.
That last part really got to me. What country are you in? USA?
Regardless of whether or not you have a child to support your situation is serious and you should contact a mental healthcare professional, these sort of things do not typically go away because of pressure of having children to support, they get worse because of them.
I would caution against going with any HN advice over and beyond: find a professional.
Best of luck.
I reached out on HN mostly because I'm hoping to find some other crazy old men, as I've known quite a few people in my direct career field who I could be describing in this way (washed up young, formerly successful, diagnosed bi-polar or schizophrenic (I'm thankful I'm not schizophrenic. I've been to a few funerals for them. Most people my age from the bay would remember a sysadmin named SLF when I say this). )
My kid I don't interact with much, I decided a long time ago it was better to keep them shielded from my craziness. Now it's just text messages & international adventures once a year.
Did your kid had a say in that decision? I know you're trying to protect him, but he might want to be with you regardless.
Meds take time to work. Weeks to even make you feel different, months to stabilize, years to "fix" you.
I have something of a cyclic regularity to my episodes (although what I have hasn't been clear cut episodes for a few years now) and I can see it getting better year after year.
So if you're not in a consistent regime of daily medications right now, you need to find one. The way out is through.
(Finally: maybe you can get disability welfsre where you live.)
I'm jealous of regularity. I'm ultradian cycling, they can last months, or days. As I get older, I don't get the joy of the manic highs anymore. I miss that quite a bit.
I'm from America, but don't live there, there's really not much of a social fabric. I couldn't even pay child support off of what I'd get, and I'd have to physically be in-country to qualify for any of that.
Big parts of the tech industry has an ugly ageism problem, as you have witnessed first-hand. So why do you help perpetuate it?
Professionally. Review your CV. Starting several businesses and selling them is amazing. That's unique experience you can sell on the market. For example, you could work for a tech/business incubator as one of the managers.
Ofc, everyone handles things differently. Exercise and sleep are struggles for me I have to 'fight' to have success with. It just doesn't come naturally to me.
Others find it easy, but trouble with other things.
I guess my takeaway is to carefully look at your triggers and/or areas you need to improve on, and break the cycle by putting attention to it finally.
Your story sounds rough though - applying to 500 positions and only getting 5 responses - sorry to hear. With your track record you should have gotten more responses. Maybe it's worth getting your resume reviewed or google yourself and see what comes up and 'clean up' if anything comes up that you think is not a true representation of yourself.
And you're only 40 - that's not old!
EDIT: removed suggestion to talk to physician about certain medication for improving focus and concentration...
Just a suggestion to take to his doctor and see what s/he says?
How could I have phrased it differently, so it's not seen as medical advice?
Employers are picky and in the catbird seat. Turning away 99/100 is working for them so why stop?
To me it sounds like your main issue is understanding your diagnosis of bipolar and keeping its symptoms under control. You are not crazy! Bipolar is an eminently treatable disease I asked my friend who is a physician with 25 years in the field and she recommended going back to see a doctor to look at some alternative medications. At this point lamotrigine, valproate and lithium have validated efficacy and can help with the symptoms you describe. I'd suggest a second medical opinion!
Regarding your coding interviews, I would suggest leaving them until after you start feeling in control. Practice, targeting your resume (500 applications is a lot!) and staying calm will get you a comfortable position with your experience IMO.
If money didn't matter, what would you want to do most days for the next few months, or what about years?
Every time I sell a company, or get fired, I tend to take 2-4 months off to backpack around the world, or find a new hobby / learn a new interest.. Then the reality that living in hostels doesn't pay the bills sets in and I have to go back to the real world.
^ The above is a pretty compelling story and the audience is there because a lot of people want to become digital nomads. Plus you have a pretty big amount of uniqueness. Most people might try that move when they are 20, but you can say "look, I was 40, I hit rock bottom and said fuck it, 3 weeks later I took my life savings and booked a 1 way ticket to Thailand".
Now you just need to figure out how to monetize it, and suddenly your backpacking trips aren't just what you want to do, it is the real world.
I think if you documented everything in the open (blogging, youtube, etc.) and then rolled it into a course once you had enough content / feedback, you'd have a pretty good shot to make some money out of it. Just based on your reply, you have the ability to write.
There's a huge community of digital nomads so I'm sure you'd be able to find some type of mentor who could help you out with the coding aspect while you do the majority of the learning on your own.
I think you’re burnt out for sure. Ideally, you need some downtime to recover. The problem, I’d guess, is that it’s financially not feasible for you to get any.
I just want to say you’re doing really well to keep it together. You don’t need to be doing more right now.
Another commenter recommending making sure your sleep and health are in order. This has helped me for sure. If you can find something that helps give you a sense of achievement (which I’d guess you can’t get from work) that also could help. For me it was blogging, and the interactions that come with that.
I’m still figuring this stuff out too, and it’s not easy. You’re not alone, and don’t be too hard on yourself.
I had to fix myself, it's not easy. But I'd also like to really push a point: see a mental health professional. Seriously. Plenty of us self diagnosed "crazies" pretend we understand our problems; we're prideful, fragile, ego maniacs so we tend to think were smarter than we actually are in some cases. So we tell ourselves: " I don't need no stinking shrink. I'll figure this out myself." But the reality is you need someone who is trained to observe and learn our bubble world we live in and tell us what they see, how to mitigate and how to improve. Instead, here we are, frustrated, pissed off and desperate for relief.
Have I seen a shrink? Nope. Why? Like you I'm stubborn. I also can't get my shit together enough to schedule something with someone. It's my fault for not going. Instead I self medicate with marijuana and try to live a life simple even though it's a massively complex mess. I also lost a lot of weight over the last year and a half going from 215 lbs to 160. I look better and feel better so that's a good first step. My mattress is also shot so sleep has been poor so i use the weed to help myself sleep ont hat slab of crap but that's because I'm too disorganized to buy a mattress and clean my room to prepare for delivery.
It's a vicious cycle if not properly addressed which we have to admit to ourselves is almost impossible without professional help.
I have a nice mattress but I stopped sitting on it or laying on it unless I'm going to sleep. I make sure for the hour before bed I turn off overhead lights and just use a lamp, and in the last hour I also refrain from screen use, except for brief moments. No matter how tired I am, I wait until the end of the hour to crawl into bed (build sleep pressure if it's there). Finally, and I just discovered this several weeks ago, I play white noise off my Google home (rain noise actually). That last step has added atleast an hour to my sleep every night, and I suddenly started having dreams again. And give yourself lots of time so that you never need to use an alarm.
A week of that routine and you will be falling asleep and waking up in extremely consistent ranges night to night. My target sleep is 10-630 and I estimate that I'm falling asleep 2 minutes after getting in bed and I wake up between 610-630 everyday.
Results: consistent mood, lower appetite, probably better learning and memory.
On a more practical note take a job that involves hard physical work outside in the sunshine. Six months of backbreaking work will give you a new perspective on life.
Drop me a message, I'll be happy to just listen.
Besides that i think you have been very successful at life. All the things you mentioned are positive achievements.
Perhaps you're already doing this, but if not, I'd highly suggest you find someone to speak to long-term, and also find someone to help you manage these feelings with medication. It does make a difference.
Meet a new kind of people, adjust to being outside & the physical work, get rid of all the office jerks, re-find your love for a local club and kick all medical drug dependencies.
But, my friend ...
Step 1: Stop calling yourself names. Please stop. You're not impressing anyone.
Step 2: Reach out. You may have "burned many bridges" but I'm sure you have one friend who you can talk to. If you don't have this friend, pick up that phone and chat to Dad or Mom or your guardian (hope they are alive). Those are fireproof bridges. Time to use them. Say exactly what you've posted here. Including the name calling of yourself. See what they say. Time to belong again.
Step 3: Time to spend more time with your kiddo, with homework and projects and play. Time to become a kid to be with the kid that matters the most.
I pretty much burnt out at age 39 too and quit a lucrative contracting job. Everything else besides the money was crumbling around me. Poor health (packing on weight in the middle), steadily increasing my drinking habit, distancing relationship with the wife and kids and lack of perspective on what I wanted to do with my free time and career. I changed that one day after I couldn't take the drive to the office. Stopped at the roadside, thought for a bit, turned the car and headed back home. I phoned in sick and later that evening wrote an email that I wanted to take some time off. Like permanently. I spent 6 months doing absolutely nothing from an earnings point of view. I joined the gym, I spent time with wife, learnt how to reconnect with my eldest teenager and took activities with my youngest. I even flirted with the idea of a startup. Still flirting... :-)
I have hobbled, tripped, fallen, injured, suffered and then recovered after 5 years on the income side but I have emerged on the whole a bit wiser, a bit bearable (ok, debatable!), a bit forgiving (mostly of myself), a bit less volatile, a bit accepting and a bit fitter. I cherish mostly what I learned about myself: that I can tolerate some things and some things I cannot. I now know instinctively whether a movie is worth it in the first 5 min just as much as I can tell whether a gig will be mentally and emotionally nourishing for me or not before I start it. It ain't just the money. If my instincts say no, I walk away. Chuck some things. This is what you are developing now. A sense of what matters and what doesn't. Don't fight the learning process.
Take care, Little Prince!
[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0384680/?ref_=nv_sr_1 (Don't go by the hopeless IMDB ranking of 6.6. That's a travesty for Gore Verbinski's work of art.)
Secondly, create one more company.
Third read 4 hour workweek by Tim Ferris. He has some practical not so evident shortcuts.
I'm 41. Always in tech. Currently back in school for an Economics degree. I had 4 or so years where I was considered schizo-affective by my PCP and a Psychiatrist. I got better and it has been about 15 years since I have taken medication. My PCP eventually told me it was probably just an "episode" versus a "diagnosis". However, it caused my divorce and I too burned bridges.
My advice:
1. Seek help, immediately. Your situation wont change if you don't. It will get worse. Professional help is very important and starts to give you a support system.
2. Can you get back to the United States? I assume you are a citizen and there should be a way for you to get into a facility to start getting help.
3. Start seeing your kid. It is clear you want to but are afraid/nervous since you want to "shield from the crazy". Perhaps seeing your kid will help you get some renewed energy.
4. Take a job that you can do. Even if it is working at Starbucks. Starbucks is accepting of all walks of life, provide benefits, usually starting pay is more than minimum wage and they embrace being an individual. Have fun with the job as you start to polish a resume, etc.
5. Start to learn slowly. You wont become an expert overnight. Practice, practice, practice. There are so many free resources.
6. Lastly. Believe in your self. Look in a mirror and realize the good. If you dont see any good. "Get a better mirror, look a little longer, stare a little harder." [0]
Hang in there.
[0] "To This Day" ... for the bullied and beautiful | Shane Koyczan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa1iS1MqUy4)
Second, have you expanded your search outside of typical technology companies? Lots of organizations need your exact skill set. They aren't the typical technology companies, but the conditions are amazing and you would fit in well with your background.
Third, be safe. I know it's hard to consider professional help, but seriously, please be safe.
rob@syberia.io