Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atmosphere?
I'm a software engineer in the bay area and have been thinking about moving somewhere cheaper (in USA or aboard) where I can live cheaply and focus on my own intellectual pursuits. I'd love to be in a place where the living costs are low and where there exists a thriving intellectual community (I've noticed cities near top academic institutions tend to create that sort of atmosphere but not necessarily). I'd prefer a place where English speakers are common enough such that I won't feel isolated by a language barrier. I haven't traveled too often and would love to hear from HN community about any places that match this general description. Thank you in advance!
1,109 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 281 ms ] threadhttps://boston.craigslist.org/search/aap?bedrooms=1&maxAsk=1...
Looks like it’s pretty easy to find a sub-$1000/mo bedroom
If the OP is into anarchism, art, and culture I would recommend Napoli. An apartment in the best location imaginable would never be more than €700. Airport is a few minutes from the city center. The food, from restaurant to Farmers markets, is unbelievably good and costs little. The intellectual life, well...
It's true that it's not Berlin, but on the other hand it's not any harder to get around in english in southern italy than in portugal (the suggestion in the current top post in this thread).
Visas they will be different for wach person but for most people but if you're not under 30 and not from a western country it is a hassle
Jobs : a lot of jobs require German and the ones that don't you'd face more fierce competition which drives down the wages considerably.
Wages: on average is lower by 20-30 percent than Toronto, 50-60 percent than sf again taking these numbers out of my ass but you get the gist. Higher end more senior jobs pay even less.
Benefits and holidays: significantly better than NA you get like 30 holidays in Bavaria last time I checked
Overall if you don't have a big friend group/ family it's worth the move in my opinion the lifestyle is much more sustainable.
It can be hard to swallow at first, but when you account for lower rent, much cheaper health insurance, and far more vacation days (~20-24 by law - and no one actually expects you to be available) along with safer cities with generally higher quality of life, in my opinion it ends up being a very, very good trade off.
I moved to Amsterdam some years back (and have worked for a Berlin based company) and don't know if I could ever move back to the states.
Also, at least in the cities, everyone will be fluent in English.
If you pick city other than Amsterdam, or are willing to have a 45 min+ commute, rents should still be reasonable.
Also the rights point you bring up is pretty key, the amount of protections, safety net, and rights you get as an employee in Europe makes it so that needing to save copious amount of money in case things go sideways is not a thing.
Mentioning here that startups are not really obsessed by technology, at least most of them. There is this a weird mindset going around I think that technology is a 2nd class citizen. But it is depending on the startup I guess.
To get into one of the bigger companies like Zalando, contentful, N26, GetYourGuide, Klarna, Auto1, GoEuro, DeliveryHero, HelloFresh or SumUp takes more work and experience but it's completely doable. I am now at one of the companies above after 1.5 years of company experience.
I say "here" but I'm typing this in SF...so I guess I mean "there".
You can live comfortably on 1300 EUR/month. (Average salary is 1000 EUR, but probably a bit higher in Vilnius). To evaluate visit first in winter because it’s the worst time.
(For anyone unaware like me)
Super cheap 1-gig internet, super cheap unlimited data mobile LTE / 5G, great food and people. Accommodation is somewhat average, 500-600 euros for a flat in the city centre on average.
Most folks in the city speaks English in the city, so you wont have issues getting around.
There is a growing tech community here as well with a some notable startups/companies.
Cost of living wise, magnitude lower than neighboring Singapore, as such a good consideration
House prices - Not according to https://www.propertyguru.com.my, I looked up Cyberjaya as an example (~15mins on train to KL sentral) and freehold $120,000usd for a 4bedroom/2bathroom place, 1 bedroom condo for much less. That would buy you half a car parking place in Hong Kong (on leasehold no less). Regardless you'd just rent anyway, at least for first few years, $300-$400pm for a nice serviced condo with pool/gym. No point buying unless you eventually get a permanent residence.
English language - I never had a problem with English in KL or Penang or even Alor Setar, except maybe one of the old roadside tea vendors, but that's probably my northern accent. It might not be Singapore or HKG level but it aint significantly off.
edit: fix abbr
I’m there a few times / year and never had a problem. Maybe if you rely on some coffee shops WiFi it could be a problem but that’s a general problem. Internet is really cheap too if you get a SIM card.
Honestly, KL/Klang Valley is such a gem, cost of living is super low for USD folks. Met many Americans who work on their startup/product here. Your runway extends by 4x thanks to currency exchange.
A huge number of co-working spaces around. Gyms too.
Also, Berlin fits your criteria.
If you just want somewhere cheap try Thailand. Many coworking spaces, but harder to find a startup community. The language barrier won't be a problem because of tourism and the polite culture.
[0] https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/most-educated-cities-i...
Ann Arbor is also quite fantastic. I study middle-eastern percussion, and Ann Arbor is a hub for my musical world. Every time I visit family in Michigan I take a couple of days to play house parties, go to concerts, take lessons, and jam. The Arabic/Turkish music scene there is very vibrant, and the city itself is unexpectedly diverse for the midwest.
The cost of living in Michigan is lower than in some third world countries. I bought my mother a house in Grand Rapids, in cash, for less than 25% of what it would have cost me for a down-payment on a 750 ft^2 condo in a really bad neighborhood in San Francisco.
The weather, however, is the deal-closer for me. Winters are pretty miserable.
(edited for clarity and punctuation)
There is a growing tech scene here with companies like Duo (sold for 2bn to cisco), barracuda networks, and a thriving startup scene (farmlogs, trove, spark incubator, etc.).
We have excellent meetups -- at least for javascript (regularly 100 people attend them).
The food here is pretty great considering the size of A2.
The cost of living, however, is quite a bit more expensive than most places in the midwest. Getting an apartment downtown is going to run you close to $1.5-2k.5/mo. There is definitely affordable living here, but you'll have to look further outside the 2mi radius of downtown A2. Purchasing a house in A2 is extremely difficult and fairly expensive.
Also, we are 45 mins away from Detroit, which is making a huge comeback. It has a ton of cultural diversity and some excellent food, things to do.
Prague is relatively cheap.
Also, some of the college towns in the US if they're not nestled within major metros.
Tokyo, SF, NYC, London, Moscow, etc. are where the action is at: for people whom can compete and afford a lifestyle unsustainable for anyone else.
Healthcare starts at ~$130/mo if you manage to not pay for the retirement fund scam (rarely possible), goes up to like $350/mo if you run your own company (not 100% sure, I can thankfully avoid it). The income tax is 19%.
Any starting point?
And about the politics... Only people that want to play into 'politics' game really cares what's happening here - other people just don't care and live happily.
Caring about politics is a total waste of time and energy - in my opinion it's just better to turn these resources into e.g. earning more money than e.g. thinking how much politicians are "stealing" it from us - I think that's the main reason why people are so angry these days and live unhappy lifes
If you are moving to another country, it becomes even more important. Not only can the politics affect your life greatly (being gay might be illegal, for example, with harsh punishments), but in many places, you won't have a say in said politics. You can rally folks together, but most places won't let you vote.
Even if the laws at the present time fit your lifestyle, the political trends might be geared towards changing this. It really pays to pay attention to such things. Politics and culture are important to pay attention to, especially when moving to another country.
In reality there is nothing to be afraid, Poland is one of the safest countries in the World (there are multiple resources about that), people are traditionally hospitable, in bigger cities like Warsaw, Krakow, Wroclaw there is pretty a lot of people from many Western Europe countries, there are also a lot of (about 1 million) refugees and emigrants from Ukraine, emigrants from Belarus, quite big Vietnamese community. So far everyone live in peace together.
A fun fact - my daughter goes to a regular primary public school and in her class there is a boy from India, a boy from western Ukraine, a girl from Ukraine and a girl from Belarus and. They were assimilated very quickly, without particular teachers assistance (public school, so teachers don't have time for anything but teaching); boys soaked into the group immediately, as running around together and screaming plus playing soccer does not require much language skills.
I think that if you consider seriously moving/traveling to country X, relaying on media does not make much sense, as they are chasing something that would make a "news". So, surely, there are people in Poland who bite dogs, yet the reality is that, typically, dogs are biting people.
Luckily, these days it is easy to contact foreigners living in Poland (Facebook groups, native language speakers portals, etc.), so, just ask someone who lives here.
Please don't mix labor migrants (99.99+% of the number you indicated) with refugees.
According to the fresh official Foreigners Office report[0], there were 7.5k applications and around 400(sic!) positive decisions for the "refugee" or "protection" status from the Ukrainian citizens in the last 15(!) years.
[0] https://udsc.gov.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/UKRAINA-01.09...
Here's your litmus test: If you read a news story and it invokes some emotional state within you, immediately preempt that and use your head. Is it possible they could be exaggerating, or straight up lying? What are their motivations and biases? Are there corroborating "ground" reports from individuals with different biases?
Seriously though, Poland is one of the safest place to live in right now, especially if you're a foreigner. Media's portrayal of current political situation in Poland is HUGELY exaggerated.
[1]: http://www.pewforum.org/2018/06/13/young-adults-around-the-w... [2]: https://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2018/10/06/church-in-po...
I wouldn't try that in a backyard alley in a "working class" part of the city, though, especially if they are male. Most of the time it would be OK, but there's a real risk of some idiot being "insulted" by that and reacting stupidly.
I've talked on the internet with a transgender girl that moved from USA to Poland for some time, she had family there, and after a few months she moved out, couldn't handle the shit her family gave her and the looks. So yeah, it's not pretty. Violence wasn't a problem apparently.
Of course if you ask a local if they know someone who got beat up for their identity (be it nationality, language, race or gender), they will usually respond affirmatively... as would quite a lot people in the West. Just don't mess with drunk idiots and you should be fine. Also, based on my observations, there's way less harassment towards women here than in the Bay Area, for some reason.
Poland. Xenophobic.
Czech Republic. VERY Xenophobic.
Budapest is much more welcoming.
Adjusting for costs of living it makes no sense to move abroad from Poland if you work in IT, unless it's because of some niche you want to work in, that you can't find in your city.
Deoending on what you value more I recommend:
- Kraków (biggest startup scene, biggest city out of these, most active cultural scene, but also crowded with tourists, worst air quality and slightly more dangerous than the others because of football clubs violence)
- Wrocław (almost as big tech scene, less tourists and smaller city, but still expansive for Poland, safe and good air)
- Lublin (smaller city with smaller tech scene but still OK, very active culturally but mostly targeting students so in summer holidays it's a ghost city, few tourists, very cheap, highest percentage of students per capita, safe and ok air)
I'm biased because I live in Lublin, but I've lived in Kraków for a short time and in Warsaw for a few years too, and I prefer Lublin. Compared to Kraków a flat will be about 1-2k PLN (2k is very good standard or strict center, median is about 1.5k), and you can earn 10-15k PLN as a senior dev.
Food and services are also very cheap because it's basically a surprise university city in otherwise poorest countryside part of Poland.
In all of these cities there's lots of foreigners, in Kraków it's mostly tourists, in Wrocław it's mostly Ukrainians who migrated for work, in Lublin it's mostly Ukrainians and Asians who are studying there and go back afterwards.
Also - all of this is nice, but be warned that Poland has its own Trump-like revolution going on right now, so far it mostly stays political, with few real-life consequences, but it is making business more risky because of government breaking the constitution and the courts wondering which law is actually binding. Also xenophoby is increasingly used as a political tool.
Xenophobic, homophobic, antisemitic nation. You're rightly warning about the Trump-like revolution. But it is much worse now. For example you can't become a school director if you're not catholic. All national TV is just a fake news brainwash directed by governing party. Don't go to Poland.
P.S. If you're muslim they will lynch you.
I love Wroclaw, I'd move back in a heart beat if it weren't for family here in the states.
Smog.
Krakow can be really nice and interesting, but you should probably be white and Western. Otherwise, you may be setting yourself up for a tough time (not because of any recent events).
In any case you may consider enrolling in some kind of academic research program. Pursuing your own intellectual thing by yourself will be incredibly tough and lonely.
They’re really not far off London prices, and because they’re in the UK, the weather sucks
"Pursuing your own intellectual thing by yourself will be incredibly tough and lonely."
Yes.
If you plan on commercializing those pursuits, talk to a lawyer before signing a contract. Most states/companies will give full ownership of all your work even on your own time to the company. States like California are more protecting of employee off time work but they still lean towards employers if your work "relates" towards your employer which for the top paying companies like Google/Apple/Facebook/Amazon/Microsoft is practically everything so you can still be screwed.
edit: also the exchange rate is favorable, so if you have savings in USD they will go a long way.
One of the weird things about the NBN roll-out was rural areas getting more attention than city suburbs.
Edit: which is mainly why I'm in Melbourne.
Edit2: though to be fair, looking at half the suggestions so far, no one seems to be taking said criteria very seriously.
The entire state only has 500k people in it, and you feel it. Shops close early, and close multiple days a week to save staff costs. You have to buy most stuff online, and shipping takes a while longer than anywhere else (for obvious reasons). The internet is mostly fixed wireless, unless you're in the middle of Hobart. There's regular power and Internet outages. There's a lack of people-stuff, so very few meetups, and it's very hard to find friends.
Most my family are down there (chefs and farmers), and it absolutely suits the outdoors types. Fishing, boating, hiking, and photography are all just cheating down there.
But I wouldn't call it a hub for... anything. You're on an island, and it very much feels like it.
Without a doubt one of my absolute favourite places in Australia (and the world) to holiday though. It's in my top 5 "places people must see before they die" list.
hobart is not a great choice if you are looking to find software-related work locally. you'd be better off in one of the bigger "mainland" australian cities, melbourne, sydney or brisbane, or perhaps perth if the mining industry is in full boom phase. +/- intellectual atmosphere.
I would personally suggest Cape Town, South Africa, if you're a bit adventurous. Lovely weather, good people, cheap, excellent food. It's a bit out of the way (10h flying to Europe, more to US), but same timezone as Europe. English is the main language. Moved here 8 years ago and no regrets
1) Define "cheap". You're in the Bay Area, which is by every definition the opposite of "cheap", but substituting that with something like Seattle or Austin or Brooklyn doesn't sound like it's accomplishing what you're looking for to me, even though it's absolutely cheaper. You said you want to focus on your own intellectual pursuits, so are you planning to quit your job and just try to pick up freelance gigs here and there to pay bills or live off your savings or what?
2) Related to #1... if you plan on quitting your job and just freelancing it or living off your savings, you're going to run into visa issues if you move abroad. If you're planning on finding a job somewhere else that heavily impacts the situation - it needs to be a tech center that offers other options that will sponsor you. What's the intention here?
3) What non-work features/perks/requirements/options are you concerned about? Middle of nowhere Kansas is one of the cheapest places you could possibly find in the US, but it's absolutely not for everyone and won't work out if you like having new restaurants opening every week, going to museums, and the other little things a big city provides to add variety to life.
4) Living in the Bay Area means you're used to cool and rainy but still mild weather year-round. Do you think you could deal with snow and wind with temperatures well into the negative? If not winters in Northern Europe (and, realistically, a lot of the rest of Europe) are going to be a problem. Not a fan of humid and stagnant with no air conditioning? That's going to mean the Caribbean, Central/South America, and parts of the Pacific aren't going to be an option - it's not standard there because of the power requirements. If you end up somewhere with a drastically different climate that can completely destroy your motivation and mood, which could be a deal breaker.
Have you ever actually been to the bay area? Compared to the most of the country, compared to most of the developed world it's sunny as all hell.
Also, only SF proper could be considered particularly "cool".