Ask HN: Is there any evidence in favor of or against ketogenic diet?

18 points by gnulinux ↗ HN
21, male, exercise regularly, healthy. I live in a friends circle with a lot of bodybuilders, eating 0 carb, high pro, high fat diet. I tried reducing my carb intake. I felt generally good, but nothing significant. I was skeptical to continue this any longer than a month or so because when I did some research on keto it seemed like there is almost no long-term study supporting keto for healthy humans. I found some evidence for unhealthy people: [1], [2], [7].

When I searched about people who support this diet I found two interesting things. For one, these people (as seen in this [3] reddit thread) are convinced that modern society likes the taste of carbs and feel "safe" eating plants, so people don't want to spend money on researching keto diet (as seen in that thread). I'm skeptical of this since research institutes do research on things public is not generally interested in.

Second, proponents of this diet seem to think this diet is practiced by ancient humans before agriculture. Recall the contents of Iceman Otzi's stomach before he was murdered [4]: fatty goat meat and pure fat (lard). We, HN, recently discussed the lifespan and general health of our ancestors. [5]

There is also this [6] research paper:

> A low-carbohydrate diet based on animal sources was associated with higher all-cause mortality in both men and women, whereas a vegetable-based low-carbohydrate diet was associated with lower all-cause and cardiovascular disease mortality rates.

[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27060389

[2]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24386671

[3]: https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/comments/7o54yh/longterm_keto_study/

[4]: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/06/110623-iceman-mummy-otzi-meal-goat-stomach-science/

[5]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18132096

[6]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989112/

[7]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/

12 comments

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I have made a few attempts at eating more ketogenic style in the past year, reading some things that seemed promising. Anecdotally, I found it inordinately difficult to stay that low-carb for very long; it seemed especially difficult to stay low-carb and also restrict calories (aiming for some weight loss on this end); I seemed to feel physically less healthy eating that way than I do favoring more of a vegetable / beans / lean-meats diet.

So I have, at least for now, given up on that.

As far as evidence... really not sure what to say. For anything I found supporting ketogenic eating, I could find something else that did not support it. So many conflicting "nutritional science" reports that I'm really not sure who to believe, and thus, for me personally, I'm more inclined to go with whatever reports seem to best mesh with my anecdotal personal results.

I do notice that pretty much every credible-sounding diet plan advocates for less processed sugar and less heavily processed grains, so that much should be easy.

If you have an autoinflammatory disease (of which there are many) then absolutely anything that lowers blood sugar and slows you down will improve your symptoms for the simple reason that your body doesn't have quite as much spare energy to attack itself. But you're still deliberately making life difficult your body, so a shorter lifespan isn't too surprising.

Vert short periods of ketogenesis are a different story entirely.

[mouse study] https://www.salk.edu/news-release/eating-in-10-hour-window-c...

I'm not following you? The paper I gave can equally suggest longer lifespan, or it can suggest animal-based diet causes shorter lifespan. Also anecdotal evidence seems to suggest keto gives people more energy, not less unlike what you suggested, and I'm struggling to find any paper supporting these claims (both yours and anecdotal reddit evidence)?
With a serious inflammatory disease, you'll have more energy if your body tones down the cytokines than the little energy you had before; but not normal energy because you've got 30% less blood sugar to play with. People in normal health do less under a ketogenic diet, as one would expect.
The real question is whether or not ketogenic diet is good for you. Unfortunately, the literature simply cannot supply a clear answer either way.

Joe Rogen just did a great show with two scientists discussing the evidence for and against carnivore vs. ketogenic vs. low carb. vs. high carb: https://youtu.be/u93oh9kC-rU. In summary, we're a long way off from matching an individual's biomarkers to an optimal diet, but caloric restriction seems to provide the bulk of the benefits for any given diet.

I'm sorry I want to make myself clear that I'm a lay person so I'm not trying to be skeptical. But is this correct? This conflicts with my understanding. E.g. I have a family history of heart diseases (although mine and my sister's hearts are healthy so far) so proponents of high-carb diet would claim fat would increase the likelihood of heart disease by clogging my arteries. But low-carb people would claim fat would have no affect on my arteries, and the only factor would be my genetic markers making heart diseases more likely. I would guess that if this debate was settled, wouldn't it be easy to just say keto is bad since it increases the likelihood of heart diseases. But I really cannot find evidence supporting this. Quite the contrary, plant based low carb diet seems to decrease these diseases. What's going on here?

Even if you were to personalize my diet based on my full history and genetics, it doesn't seem possible you could do that, since we don't have evidence even for that.

As best I can tell, the comment is accurate and asserts three things:

1. It depends a lot on individual factors.

2. What we know is limited.

3. Caloric restriction seems helpful, regardless of what you actually eat.

I haven't really looked at keto. What I can tell you is that different fats have different chemical composition and this impacts how the body reacts to them, especially if you have specific problems.

I have no plans to ever get all that knowledgeable about keto. I don't think it actually makes sense and I suspect its positive reputation is probably rooted in benefits from confounding factors that haven't been identified, such as inadvertently eliminating allergens for some people. If you stop eating things that are actively making you low grade sick, you will feel better, possibly dramatically so, and it almost doesn't matter what you actually are eating, so long as it is less harmful than what you were consuming.

"...inadvertently eliminating allergens..."

Whatever your view on ketosis, I strongly agree that food allergies may be causing more grief than we know. In particular, I suspect most people with GERD are consuming food they're allergic to. It's tragic.

On the contrary, I think you're being precisely the right amount of skeptical.

I'm no expert, either. I've read some of the relevant literature when able, and I've experimented extensively with food and supplements. I also collect anecdotal evidence for the success and failure of different dietary regimes. I think it's especially instructive when your own chosen regime fails for other people. Caution is always warranted.

If you ask a toxicologist whether or not something can kill you, the reply will come swiftly: "How much?" Given the number of people that die each year from water toxicity, we clearly lack intuition regarding the answer. When it comes to fat (saturated fat, in particular), there clearly must be some upper limit before pathologies arise, but the question actually being debated is, "How little saturated fat should we consume?" Similar questions have been posed about cortisol and inflammation, two "obviously bad" things that, as it happens, we cannot do without.

From this standpoint, such debates are largely ideological, as contradictory evidence, discovered in earnest, for opposing viewpoints implies both must be wrong in some fundamental way. Scientists generally recognize this; enthusiasts and journalists, less so. This in no way means proponents are wrong about their observations. Rather, it means their conclusions--that is, the model through which they view their results--are somehow incomplete. This is where new science can shed the most light.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying I have no idea how to reconcile even the data I have seen because there's so much data I haven't read or don't understand. Besides, even experts are weary to give medical advice. And just because my blood work on a ketogenic diet looks fine, that doesn't mean your family history won't affect your own results on the same diet.

If you don't trust your physician to keep up on the latest nutritional science (Why would they?), you can at least work with them to monitor lipid panels while experimenting with your diet. Regular blood work every couple years can also alert you to drastic changes you might not otherwise be aware of. Just be sure to request complete copies of the data for your own records. Otherwise, you may only receive a list of notable results.

Best of luck to you.

[6] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989112/ is a questionnaire, meaning the study design is flawed from the start. What you are looking for is double-blind, placebo-controlled randomized studies, not funded by the meat, egg or diary industry. For example, you can take a look at these studies here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Fung%20TT[Author]&...

Iceman Otzi had an artherosclerosis, not the best example of good health https://www.livescience.com/62689-otzi-iceman-mummy-heart-di...

[7] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/ is only 24 week period, following obese patients, which already have extremely high levels of LDL by default. First of all - 24 weeks is not that long of a period, second - if you just put obese people on any kind of diet that restricts calories or reduces the amount of processed foods they eat - it is only natural that they LDL will be lowered as a result

You can also take a look at this compilation of health studies: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cOFTFhMg1UakqvP5MGe6...

My opinion has always been, balanced is best.

If you have to stick to a 'high' anything diet, make it vegetables.

I practice semi-Keto. But it works for me. I have a hard time controlling my self when it comes to eating/snacking. I find that high protein/high fat foods are more filling per calorie and stops me from devouring high carb snacks.

I think people get turned on by the near-instant weight drop when you cut out carbs from your diet and lose water weight in the first few days.

Keto is also expensive and harder to stick to exactly than I'm willing to put in the effort for. I supplement 'no carbs' with 'some carbs' from whole grains, beans, and veggie-carbs to help bring down the cost.

The healthiest thing to do (imo) is to a) not over-eat, b) avoid added sugar, c) get your micro nutrients, d) mix it up

My personal and limited experience also has been low-sugar, mid-carb, high-fiber (lots of broccoli), high-protein, high-fat diet seems to make me feel better. Although, it goes without saying, feeling better isn't isomorphic to being healthy, living longer, or maximizing your bodily functions (such as muscle building, better cognition or better sex life).