According to Wikipedia, he's 63. Doesn't seem to be all that old, from my perspective (I'm 40). Good on him, that he has the money to call it quits. I'm saving/investing money to be in that position as well, after reading about the FIRE movement.
63 is the average retirement age in the US, though. And the better part of a decade past the average for many countries with more socialised services (for example, Australians retire at 55 on average).
Never retire. It is the downfall of a human being; you don't want to stop working, you're just wanting a different routine. The author mentioned things they'd prefer to do; oddly enough, they can all be done WHILE working. Maybe stop having a J.O.B. , but not working. I plan to work into my mid-80's.
My anecdata with my parents generation suggests the same. Quite often retirees I know grow 'old' quite overnight after retiring. One or two even died soon after retirement with no prior illnesses. The total absence of responsibilities is what I contribute it too. You don't want too much stress in your life, and winding down a bit at 60+ seems legit, but a sound daily rhythm and outside expectation just seem to fit with being a social animal. They all want to see the grandkids more but end up mostly being entertained while doing groceries. Obviously a massive simplification of other peoples real lives, but the fittest 60+ yr olds I meet are usually (partially) employed. I totally acknowledge that it is more feasible for consultant-type white collar jobs and that on it's own is a subset with different health characteristics, so I'd happily learn of more research in this area.
I would hope that Amazon would be smart enough to let someone like Tim semi-retire. I'm just a few years younger and I completely sympathize with what he says about being tired after a full day at work. I have a raft of project I'm not working on, largely due to not having the energy I once had. Maybe working 30 hours, or 20 hours, a week should be an option for more people. I would seriously consider working half time if I still got health care. I expect health care will keep me on the job until age 65 even if I have the money to quit sooner.
I think the problem is not the amount of hours per week, but the hours per day. It could be useful to start at 10 AM and leave at 5 PM or something. That way, you can take a nap before taking care of dinner and stuff.
The problem for me--and I've thought about this--is that shorter days wouldn't really buy me anything (I already have a lot of flexibility) and a 4 or 3 day week would only buy me, well, longer weekends. Those would be nice but nothing life-changing. What I'd really like to do is take regular extended vacations to go hiking, etc. And, once you're heading off for a month here and there, it's really hard to keep up with what's going on/being someone people can depend on/etc.
It is possible in some roles where things don't change all that much, you don't need to deal with the business side, and tasks are fairly short in duration. (I knew someone who worked as a lawyer for around 6 months a year.) But for me, disappearing for a month or two at a time and unplugging would be hard to pull off while doing what I do now.
Maybe I’m crazy, but I feel like I would get really bored if I were to retire and stop working altogether. I’m in the very fortunate position that I really enjoy the work that I do so that obviously helps. I also love the interactions that occur while working on projects and in business that I’m not sure you really get once you’re retired.
I also know a number of older folks (70+) who kept working and it seems like they are still quite a bit more “with it” because they have work to keep them motivated. That’s not to say there aren’t retired people like that, but my sense is that it’s more common among people who keep working beyond retirement age.
Seems a bit all or nothing/permanent, though I don't have the perspective of age quite yet.
In my mind, paid work is the 'degraded' form of life; you do it when you have to, for as long as you have to, and aim to not be doing it.
I've probably spent less than half of my adult life "working" (easy as a software dev, a starting salary is more than double minimum wage).
That doesn't mean I'm not studying/working in the abstract sense (I work on my own projects or play sysadmin or whatever), but money really shouldn't be an issue I think, unless you inflate lifestyle to require an always-on income.
I think another poster dealt with this well. A job is a job, work is work, they are seperate. Work is good; jobs are necessary evil.
I’m not quite there yet (mid-40s), but I have reached the point where I’ve started thinking about what life would be like post-career. I have no desire to sit around watch the news all day, or commiserate over coffee with other retirees, but like Tim, I have any number of projects that could be interesting to work on. They’re unlikely to be profitable, but would be fun to build, and would keep the gears turning.
Regarding his comment about his father declining rapidly after retirement, this seems to be a frequent enough occurrence - I heard some statistic once about a large percentage of people dying within 6 months of retirement, but I’ve no idea if it’s accurate. I’m wondering if there are studies that have looked at why this is and what separates people who live long lives after retirement, and those who don’t.
I'll be in that position, minus the fame, eventually as well.
I'm leaning more towards a second career around 50 at this point. Not any stop in work really, until much later. Just something less stressful; and to say I finally did it.
I think a good middle ground is taking care of an open source project. Something simple but important, where experience counts a lot more than rambunctious energy to add a bunch of poorly thought-out features that will cause problems.
If it's something other than a personal hobby project, you usually can't just dip in and out as you feel like it or have time and disappear for a month or two because you want to go on a long trip somewhere.
As I wrote elsewhere, this is the general problem with part-time activities for me. Cutting back on the hours per day or days per week is pretty straightforward. But extended absences are a lot harder.
retire if you can. really at the end of your life you are never going to say to yourself 'i worked too little', but 'what would have happened if i had stayed on holiday a while longer in spring 2018 instead of going back to work'
We can always negotiate a shorter work week, or shorter/time-shifted work days, or move to a place/company where that can happen. It's easier if you are The Tim Bray, but I've done it before and, if I can do it, so can anyone.
I'm 58. The only reason I haven't already made the decision is because, well, I've never retired before. It's hard to know that you've got enough to last the next 30+ years.
I've three income legs - pensions, SS & 401K money. Each has its own perils; all of them seem to have the US's growing instability at their core. Being an expat is looking better and better.
If you actually want to know the likelihood of your retirement income sources failing use firecalc.com.
The U.S. descending into anarchy is unlikely. The way you are talking it sounds like you're flying by the seat of your pants and feeding into your own paranoia, even though you may be just fine. The backtesting data used in firecalc includes the Great Depression, so is likely to already include your worst nightmares.
One of my favorite books, "A Pattern Language" [1] – which is a sort of architecture manifesto / philosophy book – has a section related to building a workshop for retirement. The idea is that retirement shouldn't be an end, but rather a transition to a kind of work more suited towards one's later years. In building that space, one starts preparing for that next chapter, considering what that new role will look like, and eventually moving into it when the time is right.
A couple of months ago, I had a nice conversation with a local restaurant owner. He's in his 70s, and mostly runs the place himself, doing the waiting and the cooking. His wife died a few years back, his kids are grown, and what else is he going to do? Watch tv? Move back to Trinidad? (He's lived in Minneapolis since the 1960s) Nah. He likes to cook, he has loyal customers due to his flatly amazing food, and he feels useful. It keeps him going. I'm sure if he "retired", he'd be dead not long after.
Harry Singh's Caribbean. If you like spicy, and like Indian food (Trinidad food is basically Indian food), it's a must-try. He's the Picasso of chili peppers. Do not order "as hot as you can make it", because you'll just annoy him and he might have to call an ambulance. I recommend getting the roti with whatever filling you like - he makes all his roti by hand, refusing to use a machine, because it makes a real difference. Jerk chicken and curried vegetables are standouts, but it's all amazing. If in doubt about heat levels, order milder than you expect and ask for hot sauce. He makes his own from Trinidad scorpion peppers...
This article equates “exciting work” with “9-5 job at BigCo”.
After going independent, my impact has only gotten bigger and my work more interesting and engaging. Write and share what you’ve learned, consult, do OSS, be an “emeritus”, work part time... these require the ability to self-manage, but it’s a skill that can be learned like anything else.
Why a financially independent person would spend most of their waking hours chipping away on Amazon’s problems is baffling to me.
I think he explains it pretty clearly. Seems like pretty low stress for him, he seems to be enjoying it and it gives him the opportunity to work on high scale projects, which is more tricky to get when being independent.
I guess the perfect work for him would be to find a way to start contracting for his current position, but I can see how he's happy at work.
On another note, I became independent myself recently and I totally agree with you. I don't see myself going back to another company ever, but I'm still opened to the idea, because it might allow me to get to work on super interesting problems somehow.
Retiring without a plan for what you’re going to do with all the time is a very bad idea. You don’t have to have hobbies and what not planned out with the rigor you’d bring to a day job, but you need something. I’ve seen far too many people in my family retire, plop down in front of a TV, and fall apart mentally and physically within a few years.
Social contact is good too, and an underrated aspect of in person day jobs. Social isolation kills.
"Progressive friends, people whose opinions I respect, give me shit about working for Amazon."
I hope he's exaggerating. While I can see how friends can meaningfully criticise him, if he feels like shit afterwards, they are not very good friends.
I think you might be interpreting the figure of speech wrong: You can "give someone shit" in a joking or less serious way. It doesn't necessarily end with personal internal crisis. I used to give my buddy shit for being an investment banking associate, "you're helping to cause Wall Street to take over the world, duuuuude!" over a couple of beers.
I have decided to not wait until retirement to do things that I want. I don't know if I will have health and money to do things when I retire. I have a full time job and I try to manage my time well so that I have free time and time to pursue hobbies. As a result my career will most likely suffer and overall I will make less money but I am OK with that trade off. I am happier, less stressed out, get time to pursue my hobbies, have more time with family. I think that's a good deal.
I haven't done it more recently for a variety of reasons but in a former job I took month-long vacations every couple of years. I definitely knew co-workers who thought this was just shocking and had trouble wrapping their heads around just taking extended time off like that. (I still take my full vacation; I just haven't taken it in such a large chunk recently.)
I'm jealous that he's able to have "money" as the last (least important?) item in each of the pro/con lists for retiring. I can say the only think keeping me from retiring today is my perpetually insufficient $$$ savings.
I can understand his "reasons to retire" list, but his "reasons to keep working" 1-7 don't resonate with me at all. I mean, I'm glad my own career lets me do some of those kinds of things (moving the needle, working with great people, etc.) but it's not a "reason to not retire." Not saying I'm right and he's wrong, but I feel that strange feeling when you read something from someone whose world view totally unaligned with your own! To be so wrapped up in your career and to have it so strongly define who you are--it seems so alien.
I look at the CxOs and SVP level people in my TechMegaCorp employer and wonder why on earth they still come to work every day. They all have more money than God, and could literally stop any time they wanted, and do whatever they wished to do. Collect airplanes, travel the world, build a monorail for the city, but no, they simply keep on being SVP of software technology or whatever. The mind boggles!
I'm 34. My plan is to have a big enough nest egg to retire (even if it's a pretty lean retirement) at 40 and be actually ready to retire by the time my oldest kid graduates HS, which will be when I'm 50. My wife and I want to see the world before big chunks of it are under water, so that's what we'll be doing in retirement.
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[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 100 ms ] thread[1] https://www.playingwithfire.co/the-documentary/
1. more flexible hours
2. outcomes not tied to income (meaning you no longer worry about what you're paid as the deciding factor in why you work somewhere)
It is possible in some roles where things don't change all that much, you don't need to deal with the business side, and tasks are fairly short in duration. (I knew someone who worked as a lawyer for around 6 months a year.) But for me, disappearing for a month or two at a time and unplugging would be hard to pull off while doing what I do now.
I also know a number of older folks (70+) who kept working and it seems like they are still quite a bit more “with it” because they have work to keep them motivated. That’s not to say there aren’t retired people like that, but my sense is that it’s more common among people who keep working beyond retirement age.
My late grandpa was still quite bright when he was in his 90's. He kept doing work around the house and going for hikes till his last days.
If I ever get to retire before I die, I'll find something to do for "work", but I'll probably not work for someone else.
In my mind, paid work is the 'degraded' form of life; you do it when you have to, for as long as you have to, and aim to not be doing it.
I've probably spent less than half of my adult life "working" (easy as a software dev, a starting salary is more than double minimum wage).
That doesn't mean I'm not studying/working in the abstract sense (I work on my own projects or play sysadmin or whatever), but money really shouldn't be an issue I think, unless you inflate lifestyle to require an always-on income.
I think another poster dealt with this well. A job is a job, work is work, they are seperate. Work is good; jobs are necessary evil.
Regarding his comment about his father declining rapidly after retirement, this seems to be a frequent enough occurrence - I heard some statistic once about a large percentage of people dying within 6 months of retirement, but I’ve no idea if it’s accurate. I’m wondering if there are studies that have looked at why this is and what separates people who live long lives after retirement, and those who don’t.
I'm leaning more towards a second career around 50 at this point. Not any stop in work really, until much later. Just something less stressful; and to say I finally did it.
Some projects need greybeards.
As I wrote elsewhere, this is the general problem with part-time activities for me. Cutting back on the hours per day or days per week is pretty straightforward. But extended absences are a lot harder.
I've three income legs - pensions, SS & 401K money. Each has its own perils; all of them seem to have the US's growing instability at their core. Being an expat is looking better and better.
The U.S. descending into anarchy is unlikely. The way you are talking it sounds like you're flying by the seat of your pants and feeding into your own paranoia, even though you may be just fine. The backtesting data used in firecalc includes the Great Depression, so is likely to already include your worst nightmares.
1: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/79766.A_Pattern_Language
After going independent, my impact has only gotten bigger and my work more interesting and engaging. Write and share what you’ve learned, consult, do OSS, be an “emeritus”, work part time... these require the ability to self-manage, but it’s a skill that can be learned like anything else.
Why a financially independent person would spend most of their waking hours chipping away on Amazon’s problems is baffling to me.
I guess the perfect work for him would be to find a way to start contracting for his current position, but I can see how he's happy at work.
On another note, I became independent myself recently and I totally agree with you. I don't see myself going back to another company ever, but I'm still opened to the idea, because it might allow me to get to work on super interesting problems somehow.
"I get to write software that filters and routes a million messages a second."
So it seems he likes the problems he gets to work on, and the resources he can access, at Amazon.
Social contact is good too, and an underrated aspect of in person day jobs. Social isolation kills.
Please for the love of all, no.
I hope he's exaggerating. While I can see how friends can meaningfully criticise him, if he feels like shit afterwards, they are not very good friends.
I can understand his "reasons to retire" list, but his "reasons to keep working" 1-7 don't resonate with me at all. I mean, I'm glad my own career lets me do some of those kinds of things (moving the needle, working with great people, etc.) but it's not a "reason to not retire." Not saying I'm right and he's wrong, but I feel that strange feeling when you read something from someone whose world view totally unaligned with your own! To be so wrapped up in your career and to have it so strongly define who you are--it seems so alien.
I look at the CxOs and SVP level people in my TechMegaCorp employer and wonder why on earth they still come to work every day. They all have more money than God, and could literally stop any time they wanted, and do whatever they wished to do. Collect airplanes, travel the world, build a monorail for the city, but no, they simply keep on being SVP of software technology or whatever. The mind boggles!