Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder has bailed.

129 points by drinko ↗ HN
Looking for YC advice:

I am the non technical co founder of a startup, which has been in development mode for 12 months. I took a $30,000 loan and raised some $160,000 in funding from friends and an angel to develop an idea to the proof of concept stage. I found a Django technical developer 14 months ago, and initially have paid her $6900 a month and 6% of the company equity to build a decent prototytpe, with an expectation of ratching it up in the longer term. She quoted it would take her 6 months of full time work to do this.

4 months into development, she threatened to bail on the project and raise funding for her own startup idea unless I increased her equity stake to 35%. I was initially very upset by this change, as I had been up front and honest from the beginning and I didn't like the idea of switching terms midway through the project. I felt there was an asymmetry in our risk, as I quit my nursing job to do this and raised all the capital. She also refused to take a pay cut in return for the equity. I had limited alternative developer options to leverage in the situation.

I eventually agreed because without a proof of concept,I knew we wouldn't make it, and it seemed we were getting close to launch. I thought I would rather have a real partner than a long term contract developer, and adjusted to the concept if both being in it full time. I have taken a 55% pay cut to work on the startup, and have been paying myself $3000 a months, which comes to about $2400 incomes after taxes.

12 months later, we have a partially complete web app, have run out of money, and she has bolted back to her contract gigs. She hasn't finished the work to the point where I can do a beta, as the alpha feedback has not been incorporated into the software.

She refuses to invest any of her own money into the idea, I don't want to "get a real job" because I won't be able to work on the startup idea. I have very little money left in the bank. Raising more capital is really hard, because we haven't executed on our milestones. I refuse to give up on the idea, and I know that the window of opportunity is only a few months.

I am considering outsourcing the development to India, so I can get it to a releasable state. I have the source code and am also considering learning Django from scratch: How hard would that be?

Where should I go from here? Any thoughts gratefully received.

drinko

240 comments

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Sounds like a rough spot to be in. Where are you located? Depending on your location you may be able to meet someone that is fairly experienced and can work with the existing code.

It is hard to give any advice because we know very little about the actual application you are building. 12 months and no prototype sounds very long to me and maybe some of the more time consuming features should be cut and the rest buttoned up to have a working demo.

Could you explain the idea so that we could get a better idea of the difficulty?

Learning Django isn't difficult at all. If anything, learning Django will be a huge benefit even if you do find a Django coder. Not only will you be able to convey your ideas more efficiently by having an understanding of code, but I'm sure your coder won't feel as much of a slave. Learn Python first: http://openbookproject.net//thinkCSpy/ and for Django: http://www.djangobook.com/

If you're really dedicated to continue with the startup idea, and want to complete your first beta, I'm not sure waiting to learn Django, getting your feet wet, and developing proficient skills to actually continue the project would be the best idea, as it would hinder you from launching quickly, if that's your desire. So, although you may decide to do it on your own, you should be actively looking for coders.

If you're really out of cash, and you have no family/other sources to borrow or raise money from, and you need money, then maybe a part time job to start generating some sort of revenue may serve well.

Also, go to your local Django camps, check out djangogigs.com, get on listservs, find the Django Google group and post there. Not using Django should be an option as well, if you happen to come across that gem of a coder who's willing to take the load and doesn't code in Djnago. Also, applying to YC could be an option. If you do have some sort of prototype to show, and are willing to learn to program, you could be paired up with a group, of course that's all speculation.

Just don't get stuck in a rut of depression. Be rational, and exercise some damage control, because down the road, you'll probably find yourself in a more unforgiving storm.

Respect for you -- who posted as a noncoder here last year and now a coder!
Absolutely agree - hop on the irc channel too, people are extremely helpful there.
Mr. Tron is probably referring to the #django channel on irc.freenode.net (select the Freenode server from the drop-down list on http://www.mibbit.com to connect quickly), but he might also be referring to the #startups channel, where a lot of people from around here hang out, also on Freenode.
There may be some legal action you could take - did you sign a contract with the developer? It won't solve your problem but it may get you some money back so you can divert it to some other development.

At the moment, I think you need to get an opinion from a real developer who can look at the code and the project design to see how long it would take to get it to the prototype stage. Depending on that I would try to get more funding in order to implement it while at the same time pursuing the legal route and trying to get your money back.

Also, learning Django may seem a little overwhelming at first but it's not too difficult - you can usually find the answers to any questions online.

What legal action are you thinking he could take to force someone to work on a project? Even on consulting projects with defined statements of work and acceptance criteria, it is hard to recover up-front payments when projects go bad. This doesn't sound like a consulting gig; it sounds like an employment arrangement.

Also, bear in mind that if he structured the company as an LLC, there's no such thing as an equity-holding employee; she's a principal. He may not even be able to fire her or recover the equity, unless they're on good terms.

The operating agreement should handle the case of a founder leaving the project. If that has not been specified it should default back to the state's default case.

In any case, I am just considering that an option to at least try to get the partner to finish the job or at least get some of the costs back.

The development must go on so I wouldn't say pursuing the legal route is the primary goal.

I can recover the extra 29%, as it was structured as an option.
no project contract was signed - I was naive and had met her through a mutual friend, so I thought I could trust her and we could save some money.

There is a contract for the company set and equity structure.

Then write up a legal agreement that says she must be with the company for "x" years to earn the equity. Add in a little extra incentives for signing it ("Dual monitors!"). Once she signs it, fire her.

Regarding legal costs, I've used Pre-Paid Legal's Small Business Plan for a year. It costs $69/month and they do all sorts of stuff (and things like contract review are free). It isn't perfect but it has saved me the hassle of, "Should I sign this? Should I do it like this?" since I no longer have to worry about money when it comes to important legal decisions. URL: http://wserver0.prepaidlegal.com/legalzoom/SBpage2b.html

It doesn't matter if a legal contract was signed. As long as you undertook this venture with the agreement (verbal) that each person owns a part of the business, than it's the same as forming a legal partnership. Though, it wouldn't be useful to sue her unless you guys specifically agreed that she would finish the work, etc...
I think she made a "douche-move" by upping her equity forcefully while still taking $6,900/mo - To be honest no matter the turn out your better without her cause she is lacking integrity.
Why? Even at 35%, she's got much less equity than the original founder. If her market value is 80k, and they're taking salaries, what do you expect her to do?

Talent is a marketplace. It isn't owed to anybody.

because she agreed to 6% and $6,900/mo (a lot more than the founder) ... I think loyalty means something, be loyal to what you agree to; or quit... but don't hold the whole company hostage being selfish. I still stick with the "better off without her" mantra here.
Accidentally downed instead of upped you. Sorry. Will boost up another two of your posts.
I think 6% is actually pretty sweet, I built a 1.0 for a startup from scratch while in grad school, and got all of a 0.5% stake, plus consulting fees. Usually a large slice of the equity pie assumes that you are taking a hit in the wallet now for something better down the road. I believe your developer felt like she was getting the best of both worlds.
That totally depends on the app, doesn't it?
Not only that, but the market it's based in - our poster's app happens to be in healthcare, which has its own 800-lb gorillas (large hospitals and pharmas) and its own smaller players too.

Obviously the poster thought that the app would become lucrative enough to justify a $160k investment. If the payoff looked really huge, you could justify being a little more stingy with the options. Just sayin'. (From the guy who doesn't have a lot of options because his app is in healthcare too)

I think it depends less on the app and more on the negotiating power/experience of each party.
How did she hold the company hostage? She did quit.
"threatened to quit and raise her own funding" unless equity was raised to 35%, that is very very hostile. - she only quit once they ran out of money., actions just speak louder than words for me.
I don't get it. This isn't MTV's The Real World: Tulsa Edition. She didn't like the deal she had. She told the founder, whose stake dwarfed hers, what her issue was. It didn't work out. She left.

What are you asking her to do? Stay on in an untenable situation? News flash for you: when you make a mistake signing on with a company, you aren't "honor-bound" to stay there until the situation plays itself out. If your situation sucks, leave. She did.

There's another unfortunate lesson here. When people threaten to quit, counteroffers are often a waste of time. People with MBAs will tell you not to make them at all. I've learned this the hard way; I got a really good offer in the middle of my last PM job, brought it up with my current company, and they upped my stake. But for the next 2 years, they were constantly on the defensive assuming I was going to quit again; it damaged the working relationship severely.

If you're a solid company, and someone gives you an ultimatum, a no-foul clean break is often going to be the right move. I wish it wasn't like that (I had no intention of quitting), but some political situations are untenable.

Just smells wrong, to take $6,900/mo + 6% (and agree to it) then for no reason demand more equity (which can't pay your bills) so basically the only reason to demand more equity is selfish-ness and you realize the founder is in a bad spot.

- She only left cause they were out of money, I suspect she would have rode that horse to death.

-I'm done debating; it was really fun, I got work to do; Im sure you do too... .rb

Unlike you, I do not want to do my work, which involves writing proposals today. =)
Yeah, but now all the technical knowledge of the project has walked out the door with her. Its a classic 'single point of failure' scenario.
That was a huge management error. A significant capital investment went into development. But it doesn't sound like any effort was put into consolidating the gains they made throughout the year she worked there.

Again: the project could have been broken into milestones, maybe with each demo-able. The founder wasn't technically capable of doing this, but could have had the dev write up a spec milestone-by-milestone, and then managed the project to that spec. At any point during the year, the dev could have left and the founder would have had something usable to work with.

Not only that, but by not managing the project well, the founder sent a message to the dev: "I don't really know what I'm doing, so I'm throwing money at you to make things work". There's nothing wrong with that when the person you're throwing money at is a full partner whose interests are aligned with yours. This person wasn't.

I'm making a lot of assumptions here, and I apologize if I'm off the mark.

I don't think anyone is saying that she (the dev) didn't use her leverage to her advantage. We all recognize that it was the OP's fault to give her that leverage in the first place.

However in business, relationships and "karma" - for lack of a better term - are really what things are about. There are times when you should be looking at maximizing your position, and there are other times when you should be looking to cooperate in order to maximize a collective position.

Many of the people here (myself included) are simply stating that the dev displayed poor business acumen by being too aggressive in taking advantage of another's weaker position. The key being who that other person is - her supposed partner.

Partnerships need to have a level of loyalty beyond any particular transaction or they simply won't work.

I'm speculating here, but I'm guessing that when she took the job, she thought "Sure, this'll be a cinch. I get a full salary, and if it works out, a nice bonus." Then it turned out the job was much harder than she expected, she saw the founder with 94% doing basically nothing, and said "Dude, if I'm going to slave away with this code for months, I should get founder-level shares. Otherwise, I could just do what you're doing and take the 94% you're getting" and tried to renegotiate for a stake that'd make the development pain worthwhile. The OP refused, so she walked.

Chalk it up to first-time founder mistakes on both sides. Almost everybody drastically underestimates the amount of effort required to get a startup off the ground. So what seems acceptable at first ("yeah, this won't be hard for me, I can whip it off for you") starts to feel like you're getting massively ripped off later.

And I totally agree with the comments on other subthreads that she's probably not a very good Django dev. I wouldn't be surprised if this is her first Django project. I remember that I expected my first PHP project to take 3 months; it ended up taking 3 years (I didn't charge for it; it was a volunteer project in college).

nostrademons, please re-read the original post.

I never had 94%

I was eventually ok with giving up founder level share, but expected founder level commitment. This is where the gap lies.

If you are a paying your developer a market value salary, you are basically paying to have your idea developed.

Unless you were paying the developer very little, or nothing, that is when equity should be used as payment

35% is a LOT with $6900/m

What was the nurse doing? Ideas aren't worth 65% of the company alone.

I don't know if it's intentional but it seems like a lot of people here are talking as if there were "rules", like "x% is fair, y% is unreasonable". There are rules of thumb. But compensation is a marketplace. If the founder has no leverage, taking a lower stake in exchange for salary isn't honorable. It's just stupid.

Both parties need to feel like they're getting a square deal. If either of them don't, it doesn't work.

It doesn't matter what the nurse was doing, the developer was getting paid a good amount of money.

If I was hired to do a project, and my payment was inline with my market value, I wouldn't care what my employer is doing as long as I kept getting my money.

$6900/m sounds like market value to me. If I was in the nurses position, I would have offered 1% equity on top of $6900/m

It doesn't matter what the nurse was doing OR how much the developer was getting paid. The developer agreed to the terms upfront (and I'm hoping there was some kind of contract involved). Renegotiating or asking for a raise is one thing, but this sounds a bit too much like blackmail to me.

Of course, there are two sides to every story.

Blackmail?! She didn't take the company hostage. She quit it. You can always quit. I can always fire you.

If you make a mistake when you negotiate a position, you are not ethically required to "ride it out" to some foreordained date.

I doubt anyone would consider it blackmail in the legal sense. But I'm putting myself in the owner's place: upfront contract, month 4 of 6, more equity promised upon receiving a deliverable. Losing the developer is a major setback for my startup, and the developer threatens me with creating this setback unless I give a large amount of equity. I would certainly feel that the developer is trying to take advantage of me at that point.

Like I said, it's one thing to negotiate better compensation, or to walk away for a better offer, etc. It's another to say "I can screw you over and I will use that to get more from you".

And like I also said, there are two sides to every story. This is seen exclusively from the owner's side.

I raised the funding, performed the market research, liased with many different health organisations, classifed the information in the database, wrote all the copy for the app, and created the interface mockups working with a designer.
Four possibilities spring to mind:

* Maybe you really did do a majority stake's worth of work, and she was just inexperienced.

* Maybe you didn't really do a majority stake's worth of work, and she felt like she had gotten shafted. You did start her at 6%.

* Maybe she was just a bad employee and a crap dev and wanted the paycheck. You weren't experienced enough to notice and fire her.

* Maybe through no fault of her own the project became untenable (for instance, maybe the spec changed a bunch of times, or you couldn't hammer out a reasonable set of features to launch on --- this has happened to us lots). You ran out of money, and she couldn't stay, good faith or not.

What are you going to do different next time?

You're much better off paying that 35% equity along with a full salary than giving her 6% (or worse, 1%). Think about it this way: she is building your product. She can either put in high effort or low effort. If you give her 35%, there's a good chance she'll put in high effort, you'll both succeed, and your 65% is actually worth something. If you give her 6%, there's a good chance she'll put in low effort, you'll fail, and she'll soak you for your $6900/m sunk cost. If you give her 1%, it's almost certain she'll blow you off and you get the privilege of paying her $6900/month for nothing.

As happened here, apparently.

There's a whole chapter on this problem in most introductory game theory textbooks. The basic problem is that you cannot directly control how hard someone works, you can only give them incentives to work hard and then measure the output. Much as you'd like to say "She's a professional, you're paying her, she ought to do a good job," the real world doesn't work that way. She'll do a good job if it's worth her while to do a good job.

The economy is not fair. You can try to pretend it is and watch all your ventures get driven into the ground, or assume that you're going to get a raw deal sometimes and only take those raw deals when it leads to a sweeter deal later on.

nostrademons

I paid the 35% equity 8 months ago, only to have her quit when the going got tough.

I think that the project was doomed with this particular developer from the start, because it sounds like she doesn't really know how to program. 12 months for a Django website with nothing to show for it is insane.

My comments are mostly intended for bystander-readers who're thinking of doing the same thing - paying a technical developer a full salary + 1-5% equity to develop a product from scratch. There're a lot of people that still suggest that, and it really doesn't work, as you've found out the hard way.

I dunno what advice I'd give to you personally - it's a hard situation, as many others have pointed out. Probably cut your losses, chalk it up to an expensive learning experience, and move on, then try again some other time. As I mentioned in another comment, I think it's fairly unlikely that this developer left you usable code that someone else could pick up, so it'd be difficult to get a contract developer to push it to finish line. You could learn to hack yourself - Python and Django are not difficult - but it'd set you back at least a couple months, and then you'd still have to implement everything.

[Edit: last paragraph was on the assumption that her work was not even demoable, but rereading your post, it sounds like you've gotten to alpha but just need to incorporate the feedback in. If that's the case, a contractor might work, but be aware that it's harder to read code than to write code, and if the code quality is bad enough any contractor would just have to throw everything out and start from scratch.]

If you can find a technical cofounder, someone that you trust that you know is a good developer, I'd do that (and give the decent equity from the start!), and then they can probably write the whole site from scratch in a couple months. But it has to be someone you know well, someone whose skills you're sure about, because otherwise you run the same risk with them.

Python & Django might not be too hard to learn, but learning Python, Django, HTML, CSS and probably Javascript will slow you down a lot.
Agreed Javascript in itself is a whole different beast together. I would have considered encouraging Drinko to learn jQuery first but then if you don't know how to hack to begin with then that advice doesn't really count.
Agreed 12 months for a demoable web app is bad IMHO, unless you're writing avionics software(even that is a stretch) web apps aren't exactly rocket science to begin with. So you can chalk it up to developer inexperience OR she was doing work on the side. Which would probably explain why it took her 12 months to begin with.
I had to take a salary, because I am 32 yr old experienced nurse and have monthly fixed costs that I can't get away from.
I'm not criticizing you for taking a salary. I take a nice one. I'm just saying, you're not working on "2 people in a garage" terms.
Well, my monthly outgoing are $2000 a month, so it kinda feels garagelike to me.
$3000 income - $2000 outgoing is more College like than garagelike, thats $250 free money a week (lots of ramen noodles)
$2400 (after taxes, see OP) - $2000 is more like $100 a week.
She's taking a full salary, which by itself negatively affects the startup's chances for success.

She's not taking enough risk to get anything close to 35% in my opinion. It doesn't get more sweetheart that that. Too bad she was too dumb to realize that her good position could have been very good later on.

If her work makes or breaks the company, and she's worth more than 80k on the open market, and she isn't "65% stake confident" in the founder, it's not a "sweetheart deal". It's a sucker's bet.

Again, it seems like you're talking as if there were "rules" about equity participation. You would have to have an absolutely awesome idea to make, for instance, a security researcher participate in a startup for no salary. Even if you pay one $50k, and that $50k cripples the startup and maxes out hardship for everyone else in the company, it's still a sucker deal for the researcher.

I'm using a familiar example to illustrate a point. It's a marketplace, not a secret society.

It is a marketplace. A marketplace where I know that good people exist that will not draw a standard salary and demand equity at the same time. (at least not in the levels we're using here)

And I don't care what you're doing, if it takes 12 months to get a prototype in django, you aren't worth 80K.

You're totally right about that. Sounds like there's a consensus that this project needed milestones.
I think there is also consensus that this dev wasn't very good. Not sure I have seen a site so complicated that you couldn't at least roughly approximate it in 12 months with django.

Whole deal sounds to me like she didn't give a crap about long term future of the company, she just wanted to ride the funding into the ground through her paycheck. I'd bet she demanded more equity in a moment of faith, but by that point they were doomed.

The investment round was 20%, and I have a 45% stake.
I think you need to find a new technical co-founder. Or, raise more investment. Neither of these are easy of course, but startups are tough.

You probably have to really love your idea in order to stick with it. Reading your post made me think about the most recent PG essay ("be good"):

http://paulgraham.com/good.html

Specifically, this quote:

The added confidence that comes from trying to help people can also help you with investors. One of the founders of Chatterous told me recently that he and his cofounder had decided that this service was something the world needed, so they were going to keep working on it no matter what, even if they had to move back to Canada and live in their parents' basements.

Once they realized this, they stopped caring so much what investors thought about them. They still met with them, but they weren't going to die if they didn't get their money. And you know what? The investors got a lot more interested. They could sense that the Chatterouses were going to do this startup with or without them.

i am near Tulsa, Oklahoma.

We have a prototype, but not one I would be able to release, as it needs a lot of user interface refining.

It is an online web app service for patients with chronic conditions that helps them manage their problems and has some social network features. (I am a nurse)

If the backend and basic interaction works, there are tens of consultancies who can turn it into a presentable, usable, launchable web application. For a complex application, you're probably looking at 15-25k.
No, really, there are. =)
i assume you made this comment because somebody downmodded you for no real reason? that seems to be happening a lot in the last few days. i'm seeing lots of comments at zero points that didn't deserve it, so i bump them back up to one.

i think we've got a silent karma troll.

Sorry, I just thought it was amusing. I don't really care. To make this thread slightly more productive, I will recommend one such consultancy: Blue Flavor.
I will recommend one such consultancy: Blue Flavor.

Since you're plugging them, could you disclose your relationship?

I'm a security researcher, not a web dev, so I'll just say there's no possible conflict.
I met one of the Blue Flavor crew at a recent event in Seattle and have only seen and heard good things about them.
Is this purely a community support kind of thing? Or does it allow the patients to manage their condition using the site?

I probably can't help because of a non-compete (I'm working on something that sounds almost identical, minus social networking). However, this space is always interesting to me.

I was in the process of writing a long post but here it is in a few points:

Ditch her. You don't need her and her screwy demands. That's pretty decent pay, I wouldn't have given her any equity. Do what you can to part ways as soon as you can.

Find another developer, on a contract no equity basis, if you can afford it somehow. If you can't you'll need to offer equity. Learning Python from scratch is an option but not a good one in my opinion. If you can afford to outsource, you can probably afford a semi-decent developer who is prepared to accept a decent sized share. Try and find someone who isn't going to screw you over, look worldwide and not just in your own backyard. As most of the work is done and you just need to get things refined to release an alpha or beta, it shouldn't take too much money in development costs. Then you can start whoring it out and getting some money to get things going.

I don't know what anyone else thinks but don't pay yourself. Invest all you can into the business. If it means you can only check on progress for an hour a day and you need to work part-time or full-time in Starbucks, then that's what you are going to have to do. Run it like you would a normal business. No one I know would have paid themselves that well before they've even started. If the idea and execution is good, it's a sacrifice worth making.

Good luck.

I worked as a rails developer for less equity and less pay in Silicon Valley for almost a year -- I thought it was a pretty fair deal too.
Are you any good? Are you still looking? I'll beat that number.
Currently employed at near market value :)
I'm not sure I can give any advice to help your situation specifically but I can say some stuff that might help other non-technically people in the future.

Make sure you have milestones setup in your development process. If she said it would take 6 months then make sure at 4 months your developer is at a reasonable place, hell make sure at 2 months that they are, if they aren't then it's time to reconsider the contract.

If they estimated it would take 6 months to do then by 4 months 90% of the site should be done, the other 90% is the smaller fixes, tweaks etc that always take a long time but a good developer will have learned to account for these in their estimate, but you should have a functioning(although not totally) site that far in.

I'm not one for micromanaging or the non-technical boss watching over the hackers shoulder every 2 minutes getting in the way, but it really shouldn't have been allowed to drag on for 12 months without a product. After missing the first estimate without a full application(even if it was a buggy one) you are going to have serious problems and should be looking for someone else because they are either too inexperienced to estimate their own work, too inexperienced to break their estimates down, or not doing their work.

My advice is to get a temporary e-mail address and put it in your HN profile. I'm sure you'll find some help.
That’s a hard spot to be in. I can hear your pain on how you want you idea to be launched. Honestly, learning django is no brainer. Django guys have done an amazing job building the framework. On a side note, why is your prototype taking that long? In today’s world, you can build complex apps faster than you can think off. Here is some links that can be handy for your django learning. All the best!

This is a excellent wiki with lot of tutorial/information/samples about django http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/Tutorials http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2006/nov/16/django-tips-get-mos.... http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2007/sep/04/django-accelerated/ http://www.slideshare.net/simon/advanced-django/ http://djangoplugables.com/ http://www.djangoproject.com/community/ http://djangobook.com http://showmedo.com/videos/video?name=1100000&fromSeries.... http://showmedo.com/videos/series?name=v7kABKL6R http://blog.disqus.net/2007/03/11/a-django-primer/ http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-django....

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It sounds to me like this is a set of circumstances where the developer had most of the leverage, you failed to recognize it, and got burned.

Lots of businesspeople manage low-equity (or no-equity) employees. Their business isn't jeopardized when one of them threatens to quit. Some of them are savvy enough to know how to keep projects small and focused and checkpointable, so they're never more than a milestone into the weeds and can always hand working code off to the next developer. Others simply pay more than 80k for a lead developer. Many of them pay large premiums to hired gun consulting teams who will deliver pro work without caring about equity.

80k may sound really expensive to you. For a startup, it kind of is. But it's right smack in the middle of the ballpark for an experience Python webdev. It doesn't sound like you were really doing this person a favor. Chances are, when she poked her head up and looked around a few months into the project, it seemed like she was doing all the work and taking a sucker's cut.

She doesn't have to be right about that. She gets to do whatever she wants. People renegotiate comp all the time. You didn't sell her. She left. Learn more about managing people before you hire or contract more of them.

"this is a set of circumstances where the developer had most of the leverage, you failed to recognize it and got burned"

This is true to a degree. We agreed to the initial arrangement as a fair deal, but I didn't appreciate the way she swtiched terms on me, and then bailed when the going got tough. (ie funding ran out)

Doesn't speak well to her commitment to the company, but she probably was right about being owed more equity in the company, if only because her leaving really has taken out a good chunk of the value of the enterprise.
"Commitment to DrinkoCorp" is not actually a virtue, just so we're clear.
I disagree, at least in the general case. I believe everyone has a basic responsibility for the well-being of others (insofar as you can reasonably help), and so even if the negotiated agreement is bad I think it's more virtuous to end on good terms. Threatening to quit just because you have a ton of leverage isn't illegal or immoral, but I'd look down on somebody who did it as prizing money over relationships, which to me is definitely a vice.
If relationships are paramount, everyone should have the same equity stake. What's the formula that gets you from 50% to 6% for $6000/mo? Just a thought.
Ouch. I suppose the moral of this story is to make sure you draw a line between employee and partner right up front, and be very firm about the roles. Obviously, ee's get a paycheck and little else, and partners equity and a little paycheck. Sounds like you put yourself in the position where an ee could hold you for ransom. You were paying her a good salary, and she had no risk. Lesson learned huh?

So what do you do now? You need to sever the relationship with this person, first and foremost. How much work is there left to do? If it's less than 25%, outsource this (doesn't have to be india... many dev's will be ok to pick it up, especially if there could be an upside - in the future). You should/could learn django regardless, since you should be aware of what your system does in the end.

If you've got more than 25% to do, you should really learn to finish this yourself. I'm learning django and python at the same time, and honestly it isn't difficult if you have a programming background. Be aware that you may need to move this to the back burner and take a job to get by.. you won't be able to move as fast as she did. You may also be able to find some devs on YC here that might be interested in negotiating on more favorable terms. Not all programmers can look at things that way, but most here can.

Good luck to you, and if you see me on IRC (django) I go by the same user name.

Not to be argumentative, but just to talk straight: you can "draw lines" between employer and employee all you want, but if both parties are rational, it's the market that enforces the line, not you.

In other words, if you bring very little to the table, and your "employee" brings a lot to the table, you're setting yourself up to fail by being "clear" about an untenable arrangement.

I think this example shows that the market has nothing to do with anything - it's people's perception that matters. It this particular case the dev won. I'll give you that most of the time it works the other way around.

Clearly, the poster underestimated her position and overestimated the dev's ability and that's what got her in trouble. With more knowledge, she could easily see that a django dev isn't worth 80K + 35%! In fact, I'm sure she'd get some bites (provided a solid idea) for the 35% alone from some very experienced people.

If the market did enforce the line, we wouldn't be having this discussion. :-)

I think we're agreed in principal and opposed semantically --- if drinko's position was better, a dev quitting wouldn't matter to her.

Strong disagree that a Django dev isn't worth 80k+35%. Sure, I wouldn't pay anything close to that, but I have a mature thriving company. But on day 1, without the capital to contract the project out, that could be a totally fair deal.

Am I totally wrong about how much Django devs make relative to PHP or Rails devs? Because my experience is they make more than 80k if they're good and have any business aptitude. They certainly get billed out higher than that.

No, I think an 80K mark is good for a salary. What I disagree with is that a brand new startup should be hiring an 80K dev right out of the blocks like that.

This startup needs a technical partner, not an employee, imo. So, you'd be looking at upwards of a 50% share with nowhere near that salary requirement.

BTW - Billing rates rarely translate into salaries in any normal fashion. Two different markets, and the billing rate one tends to be much more inflationary.

Indeed - a good Python dev is worth multiples more than than 80k. But we're talking cofounders here, no?
Hey Drinko, Normally when you give equity, their shares do not vest for at least 4 years. This is usually the case in most of the employee contracts. Also usually if any co-founder/employee leaves before an year she gets no equity. This is the standard.

As for getting the project finished, realistically learning django now is not an option. Outsourcing is an option but I wouldn't recommend it. You don't want to outsource your development at this early stage in your company.

Your best bet to getting the project finished is to threaten to fire your current developer. If she is fired before 12 months, she does not get any equity. Don't repeat the mistake of giving more equity/money to a third-grade developer who hasn't been able to get a working prototype in 12 months.

I wouldn't sign on to a startup with no employees, no code, no long-term funding, and no revenue for a 6% (or 35%) vested stake.
I realize this won't sound encouraging, but it seems to me that you were doomed from the start. Whoever writes the code in a web startup has to be a full cofounder-- which means a friend, not just a stranger you recruited for this project. You've inadvertantly shown why this custom exists. Trying to outsource the development would just be repeating the same mistake. Your best bets would be either to learn to hack, or find a cofounder who can among your friends.
pg,

The idea was that always that she would be a full co-founder. We agreed on a low equity split initially because of the asymmetric risk we were taking. The idea was always to increase her stake 6 months into the project, but not in the way it happened.

I met her through a friend, and 3 months ago would have been proud to call her my cofounder.

I am going to learn to hack regardless, I am just trying to figure out the best way forward in the short term, as the payoff for learning to hack will be a few months.

...as the payoff for learning to hack will be a few months.

It doesn't have to be that long. Do you have any programming experience? Do you have any friends that do? With a smart friend guiding you through, you can skip a lot of annoyances when you learn to program.

This is also a prudent point - what have you been doing the last 12 months? That would have been more than enough to get the hang of Django...

I don't have any programming experience beyond BASIC as a 5th grader.

Market research, ethnographic study, trying to raise more funding,(too early for VCs here, and there are not many risk taking angels here), running the ongoing alpha, liaising with patient groups, and health organisations, writing copy and designing interfaces. Learning about tech startups is a phase transition from the perspective of a nurse.

Your project sides interesting and in the same space as mine. Send me an email at mbedwards@gmail.com
It doesn't sound particularly like she believed in the idea.

I think in retrospect it would have been better to offer 50% and the same salary as you.

Going forward though, I'd say definitely learn to hack. Also find people who might help not because of a salary, but because they think the idea is cool and want to be part of it.

Why is "learning to hack" the answer here? Doesn't that leave this person with a startup with no team?
No one is saying learn to hack is the solution to the issue. Regardless of doing it alone, or finding a team, it'll be an invaluable tool. It'll help him play a more significant role if a team was formed.

Stop refuting everyone's opinion.

Either learn to hack, or find others who are passionate about the idea who can hack. Rather than people who are passionate about a salary. But doing both is a good idea IMHO.
Would definitely help them manage developers in the future. The best manager I ever had couldn't write a line though.
It's not part of the solution here. It's just a good investment if you are running a tech start-up.

For example, if there was another partner here that knew how to hack, but wasn't a nurse, I'd say: Learn as much as possible about health care - it's your industry.

You can be a sole founder you know. Works quite well :)
note that she took a pay cut because she wanted a greater stake in the company. does that fit with her not believing in it?

it does sound like she didn't have the experience or the maturity to whittle down to an achievable project, however. learn to code, maybe that plus this experience will make you a much stronger manager and designer next time around.

if I read it correctly she REFUSED to take a paycut.
you're absolutely right, I apologise.

Point remains that asking for equity does not fit with expectation of failure.

Learn to hack. Giving any employee a hazy equity offer with promises to "scale it up" is a bad idea. The better your prospects get the more she is likely to feel screwed. And the worse they get, the less motivating the prospect of continuing seems.

Any scaling equity package should be linked to dates and performance goals. You basically said you didn't want her to own the company unless it succeeded, when success was contingent on her.

Sounds like she trusted you. Then stopped trusting you. Then left a few months later. You screwed up. Go apologize.

She wasn't initially hired as an employee - it was more of a contract agreement to develop the beta, with the option to come on as a full partner if we were working well together.

It wasn't a hazy equity offer.

What was the partner option contingent on?
I can counter that with a real world example. I've done a startup that succeeded and got a pretty neat product out (which btw. included FPGA programming, hardware, mobile technology, and web technology - not exactly easy stuff..) and we had contractors do everything. No hackers aboard. And it worked.

So it can be done.

More data points: I've had experiences with only two startups which outsourced their initial code - and both regretted it deeply (ended up in complete rewrites).
>ended up in complete rewrites

I don't think you can blame outsourcing for that exclusively. Most startups rewrite their code multiple times, to track design changes. OTOH, if it was a rewrite motivated by code quality issues, I can see what you mean.

Good to see you back in the game ovi256

;-)

Good to see people care. I'll get you all beers if we ever get together.
We'll remember that ;-)

where do you live?

Right now, Lyon, France until June. I'll graduate then, and afterwards we'll see.
Of course we care!

(The beers make us care even more.)

Hope someday we get that chance.

Yet another data point that agrees with you.

I and a couple of friends of mine did the technical work for a startup on a contract basis 2-3 years ago. We were working in our spare time, and it seemed like a fun project, and a good occasion to learn Rails.

Of course, little did we realize that they were planning to pay us with money they hadn't actually raised yet.

We did end up completing the working demo for them, but basically left after that because they weren't paying us. They had the demo they needed to keep pitching it to investors, but it took a lot longer than they had expected. A year or so later, they had apparently raised more capital, because they launched a beta from a different technical team that had apparently rewritten the site from scratch in PHP. They have since unlaunched, though the site still offers to let you know when they launch.

If you can perform technical work yourself, you have the ability to keep working on delivering the product you want to deliver without draining your cash reserves. You can take a day job, live in your parents basement, or whatever works for you that allows you to keep building your company.

If you can't perform technical work yourself, then the minute you run out of money, you lose the ability to work on your product. That gives your project a much higher risk of failure.

Data points work best in groups. Here's more.

We outsourced initial development of a prototype, it cost us little money but much time, and the quality of the output was appalling (from both a user and a technical perspective). It was functional on a very pedantic level, but mostly useless.

Daniel

I get the feeling that there's an exception to almost every startup rule.

In my personal experience, I've never seen outsourcing work well, or really work at all. The first startup I worked at spent $300k to setup an office in China, paying their developers about $10-15k/year. It would've been a great deal, except that the China office produced nothing and sucked up the complete time of both the CTO and chief scientist so they couldn't get anything done stateside. They would've been far better off writing the code themselves.

I see your point, and I think that I'm probably one of the few people that have seen it from both sides - allow me to explain:

The startup I talked about above was some years ago, and I had no idea how to program anything. It worked out because we were extremely persistent, and simply didn't take no for an answer. A year ago I thought that it might be a good idea to actually learn to hack, and so I set about learning it. Now I'm doing a web-based startup and I have to admit that programming it yourself, and knowing what the heck you're talking about gives a number of advantages:

1) your dependance on external partners is minimised

2) you can see what features are trivial to do, which are hard, and which are just impossible.

3) your product becomes better because it is what you want, not someone elses interpretation of what you want.

4) you don't need a lot of capital, just a lot of time.

For people that do try to outsource, the crucial question to ask yourself is "What do I bring to the table that a hacker might need?" I chose to partner with a non-technical friend (who ended up quitting, but at least he gave me full ownership of the startup), because this friend was adept at dealing with people and had connections to several possible angel investors. These are aspects of the startup experience that terrify me, and so I was more than happy to let him deal with them.

For your experience, persistence and not taking no are both really important to startups and very difficult for many technical people. So you added some value that a hacker couldn't get by just going off and doing the same thing on his own.

In the startup I mentioned above, the founders were all technical people and didn't really add anything of business value besides that. They were outsourcing because it was cheap and out of a misguided assumption that they needed a big team (and probably because they were spending Other People's Money). They would've been far better off writing the product themselves.

I don't know enough about drinko to know what s/he brings to the table, but unless it's a lot of sales connections to potential customers, it'll be hard for a good programmer to justify spending time on her project vs. all the other projects out there.

I think that what drino is bringign to the table (this is pure speculation based on the original post) is knowledge of the domain, and persistence. If she is good at selling the solution then I think she has a good chance of succeeding.

An overall note on your post: I think that when you break it all down there are basically only two things that matter in a startup: 1) having a product. 2) being able to sell it. Often the people that are good at making products are terrible at selling them and vice versa. So you certainly need good hackers, but you also need great salesmen. And both of them need to be pretty persistent, since they're facing tough jobs.

> I get the feeling that there's an exception to almost every startup rule.

Well, it would be a lot easier if it were just a collection of rules to follow;-)

I'd be interested to hear what mixmax did, in what field, in order to succeed without technical people, although it's mainly academic interest, as I'm definitely "technical people" myself.

got a pretty neat product out (which btw. included FPGA programming, hardware, mobile technology, and web technology

What was it? Sounds fun.

Since fallentimes just asked the same in an e-mail I can copy paste it here :-)

Basically it’s an advertising display. The way it works is that you have a motor with an attached circuitboard that has a row of RGB LED’s attached in a line from the center and out. When you spin the circuitboard and modulate the LED’s in the right fashion you can create the illusion of a display that’s hanging in midair. This is pretty computationally intensive for an embedded application (72 RGB LED’s that each need to update roughly 5000 times a second) so we used FPGA’s for it. The whole contraption has a built-in GSM phone module, and can communicate with a central server. The idea is that you take the display to a bar or some other outlet and plug it in. It will then automatically call in to the central server and request updates. Each display has a unique ID and thus it is possible to create content and advertising for individual displays, or groups of displays. If for instance you want to advertise in a certain part of town you can buy advertising time on only displays in the part of town you’re interested in. There’s a webbased tool for doing this.

Great idea, there was a clock display on Wired a few years ago that did something similar. Did you guys roll it out?
No unfortunately we didn't...

Our focus was on building a media channel, and we thought we would be distracted by doing consumer products as well.

I've been in pretty much the same situation - being the guy with the idea, not knowing how to code it and having problems finding developers that were both talented, got things done and were willing to stick through the hard times. My solution was simply to learn to code (PHP in my case) and it has been one of the best decisions I've ever made. I think you should do the same. It's not all that hard, and there's plenty of help to get if you ask google.

And by the way, it is obvious from your post that you're dedicated and really want this to succeed - that is the one most important ingredient in success. I think you have a good chance,

Good luck.

Feel free to e-mail me if you have any questions, my mail is in my profile.

What is the feedback you need to respond to? How much different is what the app needs to be from what you have. Examples will help us understand better.
the non intuitive nature of some of the UI features.

Instructional copy is written, but not implemented.

Lack of help - again written, but not implemented.

Lack of privacy settings.

Inability to search.

Hmm... None of these, with the possible exception of no privacy (as in, the defaults provide no privacy), sound like they would stop you from putting it out there to see how it does and then improving as you go (outsourced, etc).

I have fallen into the trap of "more development" will solve this before. If you're selling a fire hose to someone on fire, they won't be too concerned with its color. Are you not releasing because there is no fire? Is that possibly why the developer did not see dollar signs and left? I ask you this not to be glib, but because I was on the other side of a similar, but much more amicable situation.

Did you see the application working (partially) or did the developer say that there's nothing to see yet (because the application isn't finished)?
I've seen it, and have it running on my server in alpha.
Even if you are able to get it out with the help of another developer(on contract or otherwise) it still doesnt cut it because this is just beta and there is a long way ahead for you to build a business.

For this reasons, and still more, I would suggest that to take this forward you absolutely need a technical co-founder. Try to find one, and even if you have to give a very high (~40-45% stake) consider it a good deal.

Additionally, 12 months is too long a time for beta. Cut down your featureset ruthlessly so that only the ones required to expose the core functionality of your site remain.

So what exactly do you do on a daily basis that effectively prevents you from "getting a real job" ? To put it bluntly - I can't really think of what a non-tech person can be doing full-time for 12 months while waiting for the beta to be done.
Well, from what we have been told so far, this is a medical startup. Which means that there's a good deal of regulations and rules that someone has to learn how the company should handle. Since they took investment money, that means that there are investors to cope with. Also, there's that inconvenient issue of working with potential users to learn what they need. Again, because this is related to the medical field, user relations will be more involved than it would be for a twitter or a reddit. The unfortunate thing about this case is that drinko could have forgone hiring a developer and spent an additional 2+ years to learn how to program and build the site with the investment funding.
From what I gather it's a social networking site for people with certain medical condition(s). I might be wrong but this is hardly a "medical startup" and thus it's not likely to require extensive certification/compliance paperwork (if any at all). Besides this paperwork would've needed to be handled by the lawyers.

I can see the logic in your UI comment, but again - 12 months ? That's enough to design and polish the UI of a Boeing cockpit :)

Not so fast - there are laws on the books like HIPAA that govern patient confidentiality and protectected health information. If she's selling to 'covered entities' under HIPAA they have to subscribe to a certain level of security or anonymity in their systems.

Why do you think MSFT and GOOG are so slow to enter this space? Because of all the hidden rules, regulations and pitfalls of the medical industry. Our poster probably has a good handle on this, or has been working hard to get a handle on this in the last 12 months.

this is a very tough position, and I certainly applaud your openness - it takes guts to get on here and tell your story.

I cannot imagine having paid this person so much money, $6900 is a lot of money, x12 is like a well paying job. To have her leave without finishing is horrible.

As your pretty far into it, all I can say is you must get to market fast. My #1 suggestion is hitting your network, find a good developer to consult with, have help you put together a road map for completion then consider your options.

Don't loose faith and don't spend another dime until you have a clear path to launch planned out. Good luck boss!

i play runescape.I need cash for my account
drinko -- maybe you could give me a shout, pcc5757 AT gmail.com (just a temp addr, will pass you the real one once we start talking); can't promise anything, but might be able to help.
Now is the time to be honest with yourself. You need to find out why she left. People usually complain about money/equity issues when they think the situation is so crappy that only money/equity can keep them in the situation. Was there a lot of scope creep?

Let me pose this hypothetical situation. You contract with this developer to create your web app before you have fully spec'd it out. But that's okay because you're using more of an agile approach. The developer gets on with her job of creating a basic prototype and you tackle issues as they arise. Things begin to change and you see want a few minor changes to the web app. The developer not being very assertive, says okay to most change requests. But 6 months in things have changed so much that the developer realizes that this project will be in perpetual beta. You are frustrated because the developer hasn't finished when she said she would. She's frustrated because she realizes just how extensive the web app is and that she underestimated the amount of work that would be involved (and with the feature creep there is even more work now to boot). Both of you are so far away from the original terms of the agreement that the whole thing leaves a sour taste in your mouth. She can walk. But you're left with the tab.

If this sounds like your situation, I know it won't make you feel any better, but it's a common story. I think what you need to do is offer the developer a way to save face while helping get you out of your current rut. Chances are she's not very proud of having bailed on the project, nor does she want bad word of mouth to spread. She was probably frustrated. Can you identify her frustrations and address them? If so, can you talk her into re-joining the team and giving her the 35% equity? Right now, you have 94% of a whole lot of nothing. If she doesn't want to re-join fully, ask her if she will help document the project and transition it to another developer for you. If she does this, you will give her the existing 6% equity in the company. If she flat out refuses to talk to you, keep your composure and be polite but let her know that under the circumstances you feel her monthly payments were more than acceptable compensation and she has no equity. If this happens, your money is gone and isn't worth pursuing. But I would contact a lawyer in order to sort out this non-documented partnership. You will want her to sign something because right now there are a whole bunch of ugly intellectual property ownership issues that you are at risk of down the road.

She left because we ran out of money.

Scope creep was limited.

The company owns the IP - we did sign paperwork on that.

In case it isn't clear, at the time I did agree to giving her the 35% in equity. I currently own 45%.

She has agreed to documenting and transitioning the app.

Damn. I feel for you then. If she's gone, she's gone. Fat chance she'll even document/transition the app. She's probably gambling on the fact you have no money to pay another developer so she figures she won't have to do it.

As others have said... learn to program. Consider it a character building exercise. I don't see too many other ways out of this situation.

That said, I don't think she was being malicious here. Most of these stories don't involve malicious folks. But when working with contractors you have to factor significant cost overruns as a reality. The work will be costlier and take longer than you expect.

EDIT: I also forgot to add. This is a litmus test. If she thought that her work would yield dividends, she might just bite the bullet and work for free until everything is finished. But she's not. She doesn't have confidence in the viability of your product/service. You might want to probe her and ask why. If you aren't going to get much out of her, you may as well at least try to get some feedback.

Does anyone else think that a salary of $6,900 is too much? I even think that $3,000 is too much... Of course my situation in South Africa might be a lot cheaper. I got away with $1,250 per month, and even then I was able to live pretty comfortably.
Absolutely -- that was a huge red flag for me. That much salary plus equity is a lot of money.
Absolutely. I live in Eastern Europe, working as a software developer in a big company, and my salary is around $2000. I would be more than happy to work for $6,900 with 0% equity as long as the founder would pay me. ;-)
I would have loved to make even half that a month, and I live just 150 miles from Tulsa. And if I'd been the one working on it, I'd have stayed and the app would be done now!
$6,900 is quite reasonable in the US for a great developer. But for a bootstrapping startup, $6,900 plus significant equity is a little much.