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From the article: “What he omitted to mention was that bitcoin has been operating successfully for almost ten years now, with no confirmed cases of fraudulent transactions.“

I think you have to stretch the definition of “fradulent transaction” to the breaking point to be able to make that claim with a straight face. At best, we have a definitive record of every fradulent transaction ever committed with Bitcoin, which is progress of a sort.

I guess they are talking about bad entries entering the blockchain and not the legal concept of fraud.

Of course, 0 bad entries is probably a necessary condition for a ledger that is supposed to be cryptographically secure.

But this is exactly what Bitcoin cash is.
It's a completely separate chain, a social attack on Bitcoin rather than a technical one.
In fact, it is not a separate chain, it is a single tree.
Which isn't a meaningful concept if you are trying to send a bitcoin from one address to another (aka, "using it").
Quite, hence the notion that there has been no fraud is laughable.
Grafting a branch onto a chain doesn’t actually affect the chain, though. In the digital world, you don’t have a tree, you have two chains that happen to have identical sections.
It does allow you to double spend though.
True. Good point.

However, and here’s the kicker, it’s no more fake than the original. So as long as somebody will accept it as part of another chain, then it has value.

This feels like a very poor defense of fraud.
Well, my point was just that it begs the question. If Bitcoin is fraud, then BCC is fraud. If BCC is fraud then BTC is fraud.

So you are left with the task of proving that Bitcoin is fraud in and of itself, rather than on the basis of circular argument.

I think we agree there has been double spending. We may not agree on whether that constitutes fraud.
Fraudulent transactions is not the same as fraud
In this context, I believe the "fraudulent" means a double-spend or any other attack that fundamentally altered the supply. After all, that's the problem that is solved by the blockchain.
Technically correct. Practically misleading.
I'm not seeing how it's misleading, can you expand on that?
You agree to sell me some Bitcoin. I send you USD on PayPal and you send me Bitcoin. I later dispute the charge on PayPal. Your Bitcoin payment can't be similarly disputed. Now I have both my original USD and your Bitcoin. This happened all the time in the early days of Bitcoin.

The Bitcoin network worked as expected, but by most normal definitions of fraud, I've defrauded you.

Fraud occurred, but it was not a fraudulent Bitcoin transaction. There is a big difference - though, I understand that the difference is likely lost on the average person, and that the average person places more value on centralized authority in financial matters.
Let's assume the average reader knows nothing about cryptocurrency besides it being 'digital money' nor do they care about the technical details. Telling people there have been no fraudulent transactions in the history of the currency is disingenuous. There have been numerous instances in which A's money moved to B without A's consent. Technically writing that off as non-fraudulent might be correct, in that it abides by the rules of the system, but it is likely not what the average reader is using to interpret it. The nature of the system is that it is more vulnerable to fraud than in traditional banking systems, and worse, when you are defrauded in most conventional banking systems, there are remedies you can seek. You get nothing with crypto. There are of course things you can do to avoid most of the gaping security holes many people have fallen into but that misses the point for the mass market and does nothing to address certain edge cases, e.g. robber hitting you with a wrench and demanding a private key.

To hit the whole article more generally, the author claims that men with guns can't guarantee fiat currency remains valid. True. But if men with guns say your crypto is now illegal, the utility of crypto for the common individual is now (value - expected cost of committing a felony on a public ledger). You might still find a use for it, but the majority of layperson use cases to mitigate hyperinflation just went down the toilet.

Maybe I'm misreading, but can you give one "instance in which A's money moved to B without A's consent."?

I suppose you mean phishing attacks or some form of hack on an exchange or end user.

Sure. Those qualify. I also like to highlight the opportunity for violent physical crime. I have no idea if this story is true but it is at least representative. http://altdigitalcurrency.com/police-arrest-gang-that-kidnap...

I'd bet that the police were unable to recover anything that the gang members robbed. Crypto introduces a weird situation in which you either: A - keep all of your private keys at home which is effectively just like keeping all of your cash at home, but in easily distributable packages or B - trust some third party entity to hold and protected your assets from what looks like fraudulent transactions. I would imagine a world in which everyone has crypto as their currency would have a lot more physical crime, home break ins, and robberies.

Those would not qualify actually. IMHO, the class of attacks on humans is never solvable at protocol layer and the statement you made that funds from A can be moved without A's action is both technically and practically incorrect.

I come from a family of policemen and consider that cryptocurrency adoption will lead us to a scenario where your assets can't be taken away from you because they can't be linked to your physical identity in the first place. The idea that others will protect your personal property on your behalf actually puts you and your assets at danger in more sinuous and violent ways, either by theft or injunction or even by clerical mistake.

They are already solved, or at least safeguarded against to a highly useful degree. If you try to withdraw all of your money at an ATM, the ATM will say "no, that looks fraudulent." If you try to transfer your savings account to an unknown individual, the bank will say "no, that looks fraudulent". At worst, bank transfers are sent to people with verified identities, which makes crime hard. If you do this with crypto, it will say "ok".

If crypto is the main currency then it will be tied to your physical identity, because you will "use" it- and whatever medium you're using to convey that payment, be it a QR code on a physical card or a phone app, has significantly increased risk if lost or stolen or forcibly abused.

Much of the benefits of crypto for non major financial transactions can be solved with cash and a shady hoody. But laypeople still use banks, because what they really want is risk reduction, and for 99% of the population, banks provide that.

"Much of the benefits of crypto for non major financial transactions can be solved with cash and a shady hoody."

Just the other day some guy on HN was adamant that bitcoin was "only" useful to buy drugs without having to meet shady people. I thought he was short sighted but you can't even see the benefit in _that_ specific disintermediation...

In all honesty, when I read things like what you just wrote, it doesn't make me want to spend my time showing you a different point of view because I don't believe you are able to learn from the experiences of others.

> Let's assume the average reader knows nothing about cryptocurrency besides it being 'digital money' nor do they care about the technical details. Telling people there have been no fraudulent transactions in the history of the currency is disingenuous. There have been numerous instances in which A's money moved to B without A's consent. Technically writing that off as non-fraudulent might be correct, in that it abides by the rules of the system, but it is likely not what the average reader is using to interpret it.

So your argument is not that it's misleading/infactual, infactual, but that the colon person would misinterpret this.

Does this not happen with technical subjects all the time? Such as in law, some of the lingo used doesn't follow the community accepted definition.

I don't think that means what you think it means.
Fraudulent like counterfeiting or tax fraud—i.e. tricking the system into allowing you to do something you shouldn't be able to do.

Tricking other people out of their BTC, meanwhile, isn't really fraud, it's just theft.

Right. "No confirmed cases of counterfeiting" is about as far as you can go. There's been fraud, theft, loss, and about ever scam known.
Interesting idea about Bitcoin being a "settlement system", as opposed to a payment system like Visa or Paypal.

I think of Bitcoin as being a Gold 2.0. Reasons:

1. It's like gold, but it removes some of its technical shortcomings.

2. It's also not a fiat currency, because it's not possible to just print new money.

Those two properties are, I believe, its defining properties.

Not being able to print new money might be a good thing, or it might be a bad thing. It could very well be that the control that central banks have over the money supply might not be a good thing. Or it may indeed be a good thing. Who knows.

Krugman might think the control that governments exercise over the money supply is benign - but Krugman and his fellow economists are not scientists. There are equally compelling arguments that fiat currencies encourage people to put their money into fractional reserve banks, creating lots of risky debt. The banks themselves end up being too big to fail, needing periodic bailouts, creating moral hazards that result in future risk, and making ordinary people pick up the tab.

A bitcoin economy, in contrast, will presumably not have such cheap access to credit. It will probably be a "deflationary" currency, encouraging people to save up their money, rather than lend it out, avoiding needless debt. Whether or not this is a good thing is unclear.

Full disclosure: I have 200 GBP in Bitcoin. Treat these things like lottery tickets.

It’s exactly like gold except that you can’t do anything at all of practical use with it.
And you can create unlimited forks of it, which is kinda hard with gold.

For me this makes the real value zero, but I am already proven wrong for more then 10 years.

The value of Bitcoin comes from social consensus. You cannot fork that. You can only fork a code repository. End of the day, it is just a bunch of 1s and 0s without a social consensus of value.
You are begging the question. "Social consensus" is literally the same thing market value.
> The value of Bitcoin comes from social consensus. You cannot fork that.

Can’t? Perhaps it is difficult, but not impossible. I can think of some examples of forking social consensus: x11-wayland, Debian-Ubuntu, star office - open office - whatever office it is now.

Gold, based on its practical uses, should have a much lower value as well--but naysayers have been proven wrong since time immemorial. I think the market will continue to stay irrational much longer than we will be alive.
Few consumptive uses is actually a positive for a monetary system.
Apart from:

- Its usage in black markets, like drugs and weapons.

- Its usage as a speculative commodity.

- Its usage as a hedge against hyperinflation.

Those are current uses - and any one of them could grow much bigger. Conceivably, a government may end up creating a new black market traded in bitcoin, which might then propel it to mainstream adoption.

Footnotes: Drugs are bad; don't do drugs. Guns kill people. Don't sell your house for Bitcoins. Etc.

* - Its usage as a speculative commodity.

- Its usage as a hedge against hyperinflation.*

FYI - those are both features that gold currently possesses.

Yes, but to secure the gold requires physical security. To secure bitcoins or other cryptocurrency requires digital security. It requires different types of knowledge, but in theory, digital security is highly efficient and I'd argue orders of magnitude just plain better.
I am not convinced that Bitcoin is all that, but the usefulness of gold is also rather limited. Silver and platinum are much more important for technical applications, as opposed to looking nice. If it was about usefulness, platinum would have long replaced gold for the purpose of storing value.
This is also a great feature that makes it exactly like gold. But unlike gold, you don't need to dig a hole in the ground, put it there and have people guard it. You just need enough electricity to run it.
Fractional reserve is really what makes a bank a bank instead of a gold/dollar holding company. The problem for banks in not so much debt defaults by people who they loan money to, but lots of people the bank owns money to wanting it back all at the same time.

We could get rid of almost all the bank default risk by making banks match the maturity of their deposits with the maturity of the loans they make. But with less risk, the bank would not be as profitable most years.

Banks have existed long before fractional reserve though. You really don't need fraction reserve for banks to exist.
How would that work? You put money in a bank, the bank can only keep it in the vault, sitting there doing nothing waiting for you to take it back, unless it can lend part of it out. Thus fractional reserve. Loans existed before banks, but fractional reserve is the whole trick behind banks. Banks started out, I believe, as as goldsmiths[1]. They were places where people paid to keep there gold and and other valuables, and got a receipt for the deposit. These goldsmiths also loaned their own money to people at interest. Eventually some of the more risk taking ones decided that since not all depositors would come for their money at once, they could lend some of deposits out at interest. Modern banking was born.

[1]http://encyclopedia-of-money.blogspot.com/2010/03/goldsmith-...

Well not only would banks be far less profitable, but the entire modern economy would grind to halt. I think that's the real problem with 100% reserve banking--it's disingenuous to cast it as less profit for banks.
2013 called, it wants its hot take on "digital gold" back.
Settlement system vs payment system is a false dilemma. Cryptocurrencies can be both.

To me digital trustless and permissionless transfers are the most important features of cryptocurrencies.

> 1. It's like gold, but it removes some of its technical shortcomings.

Bitcoin, or the technology of Proof-of-work and immutable history that is based on it, is not like gold:

One can take the entire history, change specific parameters, and create a new coin (bitcoin cash for instance) that has the same history. Hence people that had bitcoins have the same amount in this new currency.

This is like taking all gold in existence, magically duplicate its exact quantity into say another chemical element which never existed before, and distribute the amounts to all the people that owned gold before; in the same proportions.

Would this make the scarcity property of gold less interesting for using it as a medium of exchange? You bet so! One could magically do this ad-infinitum, possibly creating infinite other chemical elements - what would then set gold apart from the rest?

One only needs to try to send LTC to someone who wants BTC to discover that there is indeed a significant difference between a Bitcoin and a Litecoin.

Your argument would apply equally to any currency. What stops me printing jstanley dollars and claiming there is 1:1 parity with actual dollars? Nothing! And yet that doesn't devalue actual dollars.

I was specifically talking about gold... not other types of currency.
> What stops me printing jstanley dollars and claiming there is 1:1 parity with actual dollars? Nothing! And yet that doesn't devalue actual dollars.

If most people had legitimate reason to believe that your jstanley dollars would retain 1:1 parity with US dollars, and they would be able to be used interchangeably with US dollars for most financial interactions for the foreseeable future, then you might devalue the US dollar by printing enough jstanley dollars.

That is unlikely though - there is no reason to believe any of those things about your dollars.

Whereas if you believe in the model of bitcoin, why don’t you believe in the model of bitcoin2? The best answer I am aware of is “network effects”, but that isn’t a very good one.

The network effect is the only thing supporting a fiat currency like the USD - as evidenced by Krugman’s “men with guns” quote in the article.
> Full disclosure: I have 200 GBP in Bitcoin.

Hey, I appreciate this. As someone that doesn't like bitcoin, it became clear that the people shilling bitcoin we're not honest about their investments.

I think of Bitcoin as being a Gold 2.0.

That may be a bug, not a feature. See William Jennings Brian, "Cross of Gold" speech. Having a fixed currency and economic growth forces deflation, which is really tough on debtors.

Gold, like diamonds, is a promoted rarity. The gold industry's "World Gold Council" puts effort into into getting gold safely locked up in safe uses like jewelry and off the trading market.

The deflation problem with Bitcoin will keep getting worse because the mining reward decreases over time.
> It's also not a fiat currency, because it's not possible to just print new money.

Fiat money is money that is in itself intrinsically valueless but that is accepted as money because the government says that it must be. It has nothing to do with whether or not it can be printed (or otherwise easily created).

If a government were to make a cryptocurrency like Bitcoin their legal tender and require that it be accepted as money, then that cryptocurrency would become fiat money.

Money has for the most part been a dichotomy: commodity money and fiat money. Bitcoin doesn't fit fully into either category, but it actually is closer to a non-government fiat currency than to commodity currency.

Commodity money was things that were valuable themselves, independent of their use as money. Gems and precious metals, for example, are useful for making jewelry and for other aesthetic purposes, and their rarity makes them useful as status symbols for upper classes.

In societies that do not use them for money, people still want them and use whatever is used for money to buy them.

Cryptocurrency doesn't really fit as commodity money because the demand for it is almost all for its use as money. If people did not accept cryptocurrency as money, I doubt many people would be interested in buying it.

As money, cryptocurrency is much more like fiat money: something worthless that has been declared to be money. The only difference from most other fiat money is that with cryptocurrency it is not a government declaring it to be money. It is a large group of people.

We probably need a new category, non-government fiat currency, to cover cryptocurrency as money.

> cryptocurrency is...something worthless

Cryptocurrencies aren't worthless though. Computationally expensive, cryptographically useful numbers are a valuable commodity. They are valuable in virtue of the computational work that they make possible, the same way that electricity or silicon are valuable in virtue of the computational work that they make possible, i.e. successfully, verifiably lengthening the blockchain.

> Fiat money is money that is in itself intrinsically valueless but that is accepted as money because the government says that it must be...require that it be accepted as money (emphasis added)

There's the part where you say it.

> The only difference from most other fiat money is that with cryptocurrency it is not a government declaring it to be money. It is a large group of people.

And there's the part where you take it back. As you started to say, declaration is a necessary but not sufficient condition for fiat; it also requires forcibly maintaining the declaration. If a large group of people have that power then they're effectively a government, making "non-government fiat currency" an oxymoron.

The problem Bitcoin solves is that fiat currencies fail all the time due to: debasement, hyperinflation, counterfeiting, wars, coups d'état, etc.

It occurred to me that someone should make a sister site to the (satirical) https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoinobituaries/ except it would list real-world occurrences of fiat currencies "dying" of these various causes.

> Perhaps the most compelling argument for bitcoin is the completely apolitical and predictable monetary policy it operates within. Bitcoin cannot be used for quantitative easing, for example. You can’t just print more of it when the whim takes you.

Bitcoin eliminates the possibility of inflation by replacing it with a guarantee of deflation. Deflation comes with its own sets of economic and political problems, some of which can be just as thorny as the ones that come with inflation.

There is a school of thought that holds that inflation is so bad that its opposite must inherently be good. How much Bitcoin appeals to you will depend a lot on how close this aligns with your own thinking.

As a long-time proponent of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, I agree. Bitcoin is and was intended as a political tool. It may yet transcend that use, but it’s yet to be seen if that will be the case.
Keeping the blockchain going requires enormous amounts of electricity, which contributes to Climate Change greatly. Unless it can solve this issue, it must be shut down for the survival of humanity.
Electricity secures bitcoin's inherent security. It's a feature, not a bug.

Seeing as most everyone's information used to access credit is available on dark sites, I'm willing to go long on cryptocurrencies.

> Keeping the blockchain going requires enormous amounts of electricity.

When demand abates, the electricity requirements will follow.

World energy production: 168,519TWh

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption

Bitcoin mining energy consumption: 73.12TWh

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

Percentage: 0.0433897661%

I wish people would actually do some research before making hyperbolic statements like this.

edit (percent fix and formatting)

Do you know how large 73TWh is? 0.04% is huge when compared to total energy consumption
I don't find it large compared to other uses of electricity that waste large amounts, or other forms of pollution that don't provide any use to the world.

If you find it useless then sure vilify it, but not everyone feels that the creation of an entire industry that has allowed certain people financial freedom is a drain. I feel there are much bigger fish to aim an ecological spear at.

(updated the previous comment to show production not consumption btw)

I'm not singling out Bitcoin at all. I think all polluters need to become carbon neutral or quit existing. It's a part of the problem, no matter how small of a percentage of pollution it is.
> There was never an example of hyperinflation when economies operated a gold or silver standard.

And the price revolution about 400 years ago? While this is not a hyperinflation, this introduced inflation to a world which didn't know it, and the cause was the influx of gold and silver from the New World to Spain and indirectly to the rest of Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_revolution

My point is that even gold and silver could undergo inflation pressures and that it already happened.

All money come in existence by issuing a credit. Notes are debt obligation with no interest issued by the central bank. Other forms of money are coming into existence by commercial banks when issuing credit. Refer to autonomous money creation.

Bitcoin is no money unless banks (central or commercial) can create it at will.

Money creation is an essential prerequisite for capitalism. With no money creation through credit there is no capitalism any more.

Bitcoin does not solve any problem, but it creates new ones.

Your currency is not supported by "men with guns". Your currency is supported because you have to pay you taxes in that currency. The state want to have currency, not Bitcoins. You Bitcoins are only of value as far as the can be converted to fiat currency at the time your taxes are due. You are completely depended on someone else to give you something of value (currency) against something without value (Bitcoin).