Its not safe to be queer. There are broad societal protection that one loses out on the second they aren't straight acting and cis-gendered, all it takes is a shift in the political winds for governments to start rounding up any class or minority they don't like.
There are "safer" places in the world to be queer, but the threat of danger and violence never goes away, even in gayborhoods like here in parts of Seattle.
> There are "safer" places in the world to be queer, but the threat of danger and violence never goes away, even in gayborhoods like here in parts of Seattle.
100% true. And the risk is multiplied for those of us who are both queer and not-white.
Yes, sometimes there are ways to mitigate that risk, but most of the time, it's just there - nothing we can do except hope that we're lucky.
This is on point. HN blows chunks for downvoting you, but whadaya expect from a site heavily populated by cis-gendered techbros pushing a lawbertarian agenda?
What you're saying may well be true, but it has no bearing on the case in this article. Based on the article, it appears that the author wasn't jailed for writing gay sex scenes, but rather for selling books with sex scenes of any kind. Apparently China has a law against selling pornographic books of any kind, and this author ran afoul of it.
> Based on the article, it appears that the author wasn't jailed for writing gay sex scenes, but rather for selling books with sex scenes of any kind. Apparently China has a law against selling pornographic books of any kind, and this author ran afoul of it.
All over the world, sex-negative laws are disproportionately enforced against queer people (and specifically queer people of color). Sure, the statue here applies to all pornography/erotica, but that doesn't negate OP's point that it is not safe to be queer (or to produce content targeted at a queer audience).
Except it very much does have bearing on this case.
That's your assumption, but without hard data about how many people have been sentenced for distributing gay pornography books vs. straight pornography books, it is exactly that...an assumption.
Said laws are likely made to be enforced selectively when a distraction is needed or a pretext. One naughty book in a library and you have something to vilify that troublesome bookseller over.
I did say likely - it is possible they are sincere in their doctrines. Why I think this is more conjecture than proven fact or feeling. Laws everyone breaks and are enforced only when convenient is a classic totalitarian tactic for control.
Given other accounts about things like the lax pollution enforcement until it causes a loss of face and how corruption charges were used more for solidifying President for Life status than actually reducing corruption cynical motivations are consistent.
Modern corporate "pride" parades blow chunks in comparison, just a scam by large companies to create a new holiday to profit on while garnering community goodwill.
That's true for every minority everywhere - for ethnic, religious and as you mentioned sexual minorities. The threat that the majority would turn the tables on you is always a future threat.
It's a matter of degree surely. There are plenty of places in the world where a straight, white Westerner can live as a minority with relatively little fear of violence. Almost none for a gay person.
Gotta love it when HN downvotes you for reasonable comments!
To the downvoters of OP, where is safe from harassment and attacks? Here in Seattle, the queer haters literally roll in and beat us up for fun, even enclaves like Fire Island aren't going to be able to avoid this threat.
How do you explain the extremely high domestic violence rates amongst gay couples? It might be higher than Hetero couples. It seems gay is not even safe with gay.
I would love to see a citation for this, as I can't find domestic violence statistics for this. Most of the domestic violence I hear about is family attacking the queer member of the household, my current SO has multiple scars from that, and my prior one left home at 16 to get away from the abuse.
> How do you explain the extremely high domestic violence rates amongst gay couples?
A combination of indirect effects of heteronormative broader society:
"We found evidence that supports the minority stress model - the idea that being part of a minority creates additional stress," he says.
"There are external stressors, like discrimination and violence against gays, and there are internal stressors, such as internalised negative attitudes about homosexuality."
Not to take anything away from your point, but if you mean white males, then why not say so? And what do I (a white male) have to do with any of this? Should I feel guilty now?
The Reddit discussion said the issue was not about being gay but about being pornography, sold illegally, to minors, violating all sorts of copyright and porn related regulations.
Apologies for not having a link handy from my cell phone, I'd appreciate if someone could look it up and respond with links.
Thank you. Correlation != Causation, but I guess logic doesn’t apply when it comes to anything China related discussion here. Saying that, this is still an ridiculously outdated law, 10 years sentence seems rediciculous.
Censorship of erotic material isn't a purely Chinese thing, other countries practice it at smaller scales. In England, various fictional artworks can be prosecuted under the Obscene Publications act, even possession of some cartoon pornography can be prosecuted under CAJA 2009 s.63. To the dismay of LGBTQ+ and sexual freedom campaigners, even possession of simulated rape pornography is illegal.
That's not to say that homosexuality can be compared to fetish porn, but people should be aware that in some countries without constitutional protection for free speech (or those with one but with an "obscenity" exception, looking at you Canada) censorship of harmless porn is par for the course.
(Would someone mind explaining why this is being downvoted? In my experience, few people are familiar with such laws in Western countries, and of course I condemn China's laws more; is this comment off topic? Please tell me if I can improve.)
> In England, various fictional artworks can be prosecuted under the Obscene Publications act, even possession of some cartoon pornography can be prosecuted under CAJA 2009 s.63. To the dismay of LGBTQ+ and sexual freedom campaigners, even possession of simulated rape pornography is illegal.
The UK is hardly a touchstone of freedom of erotica. It's not just simulated rape - if you look at the full list of things censored under Cameron, it includes a lot of things that would be considered rather dry by American standards (such as most pornography filmed outdoors).
I didn't reference that material because as far as I know, only the production of such pornography within the UK is illegalised, that is to say, it's still fine to possess and view it, download it etc. so long as you don't produce (or even sell?) it. Correct me if I'm wrong here, please.
But yeah, there's very little room for disagreement here, England is known for its ingrained doctrines of legal moralism and legal paternalism.
I would contend that there can be harms involved even with porn that you might consider harmless; harms such as addiction, damaged relationships, objectification of partners. Porn can damage minds.
Many things (like alcohol) can be addictive and damage relationships. Who objectifies others should be a personal choice, censorship should not be performed for the purpose of protecting people from thinking in a certain way. Plenty of other information can damage minds too, can't it? Who's to decide which porn is more or less damaging, unless you support a blanket ban on all pornography? Come to think of it, even non-pornographic fiction can damage minds; films involving drug use, James Joyce's Ulysses.
> Who's to decide which porn is more or less damaging
Or just what is meant by 'damage'? Discourse here is unlikely to be a friendly academic discussion on the meaning of words, but instead another instance of the eternal question "Who? Whom?"
That is quite a monoatomically smooth polished and lubricated slope there. Truthful descriptions of somebody's past actions can damage relationships. Pointing out that your partner sleeps with someone else on every business trip can. Should telling you that your partner is cheating on you be a felony then? Should history books be banned because some get the completely wrong message and idolize Hitler and Stalin? And how does one define damage to the mind anyway?
Likely it is over being taken as whataboutism - pointing out shitty behavior of others taken as a defense via deflection instead of a "be vigilant against it elsewhere" message.
Are you completely sure you want to use CAJA 2009 as your example? On the subject of pornography, that Act only covers images of sex with children (or images of children witnessing bestiality).
I presume you have some justification for asserting that LGBTQ+ campaigners had issues with that part of the Act because that's a pretty provocative assertion. My recollection (and the only evidence I can find from searching) is some concern from graphic novelists and their publishers that's proved baseless.
>Are you completely sure you want to use CAJA 2009 as your example?
Yes, I am sure. Several researchers have noted also there is very little, if any, rational justification for that censorship. On what grounds do you say the concerns of the artists was baseless? My comment on LGBT campaigners was in reference to Cameron's 2015 law on simulated rape pornography.
They've likely had chilling effects, haven't they? Just as with any censorship, there are chilling effects. According to some data I saw a while ago given in parliament, around 20 people a year are prosecuted for possession or production of the material, at least in magistrate courts. Taking the concerns of the graphic novel artists in a more general sense, they were completely right on warning about the juridification of the imagination. It's extremely unsettling how in the face of this you can say that their concerns haven't materialised, even given how overseas artists have lost the UK audience too. If Google were declared illegal to use, would you claim that its illegalisation has had no effect on web search?
As a side note, although there were no graphic novelists to speak for me, other regulation on fiction in the UK has had its own effects on my own online activity. The only way you'd know is if you had a keen enough eye to spot my activity cease when I was made aware of the hideous laws in England.
I would hope they’ve had chilling effects or what would be the point of the legislation?
The 20 probably refers to the CPS’s VAWG report in 2012. As I’m sure you’re aware that was 20 cases that had magistrates’ hearings covered by section 62. Not convictions and not just cartoons (I don’t believe there were any cartoons but I could be mistaken). It was somewhat more the following year but still very low, <200.
If that has helped reduce the amount of child porn entering the UK from abroad then that’s great. I doubt it though.
No idea what this has to do with Google.
TBH if your work actually flouts section 62 then I’m 100% ok with you stopping. I see no particular need to support someone’s freedom to express depictions of child sex. Freedom of expression has far more important battles to fight than that.
>I see no particular need to support someone’s freedom to express depictions of child sex.
Do you see the particular need to support someone's freedom to make metal music, regular pornography, films with drug use, online roleplayers, teenagers writing fanfiction, etc? What if a few MPs decided they saw no particular need to support your right to comment on HN?
The fact that there are more important battles does not mean this one should be ignored. Matters of justice have little to do with whether you would support the activity, and much more to do with whether you would support the principle. The question I am asking you is whether people should be punished by the state for possession or creation of these drawings, and if so, why? People's lives are literally at risk over these drawings of fictional characters. Going to prison, potentially being put on the register, etc. is no small deal. Suspended sentences are still on your criminal record.
The numbers I was referring to were specifically on drawn fictional non-photorealistic depictions. As such, that included cartoons (like Japanese hentai). Maybe I read the stats incorrectly, though.
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[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 130 ms ] threadThere are "safer" places in the world to be queer, but the threat of danger and violence never goes away, even in gayborhoods like here in parts of Seattle.
100% true. And the risk is multiplied for those of us who are both queer and not-white.
Yes, sometimes there are ways to mitigate that risk, but most of the time, it's just there - nothing we can do except hope that we're lucky.
All over the world, sex-negative laws are disproportionately enforced against queer people (and specifically queer people of color). Sure, the statue here applies to all pornography/erotica, but that doesn't negate OP's point that it is not safe to be queer (or to produce content targeted at a queer audience).
Nor did I say that it did. In fact I said the opposite, in the very first words of my comment..."What you're saying may well be true...".
> but it has no bearing on the case in this article
Except it very much does have bearing on this case.
That's your assumption, but without hard data about how many people have been sentenced for distributing gay pornography books vs. straight pornography books, it is exactly that...an assumption.
Given other accounts about things like the lax pollution enforcement until it causes a loss of face and how corruption charges were used more for solidifying President for Life status than actually reducing corruption cynical motivations are consistent.
Modern corporate "pride" parades blow chunks in comparison, just a scam by large companies to create a new holiday to profit on while garnering community goodwill.
To the downvoters of OP, where is safe from harassment and attacks? Here in Seattle, the queer haters literally roll in and beat us up for fun, even enclaves like Fire Island aren't going to be able to avoid this threat.
A combination of indirect effects of heteronormative broader society:
"We found evidence that supports the minority stress model - the idea that being part of a minority creates additional stress," he says.
"There are external stressors, like discrimination and violence against gays, and there are internal stressors, such as internalised negative attitudes about homosexuality."
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29994648
Not to take anything away from your point, but if you mean white males, then why not say so? And what do I (a white male) have to do with any of this? Should I feel guilty now?
Nothing to do with white or male.
Apologies for not having a link handy from my cell phone, I'd appreciate if someone could look it up and respond with links.
That's not to say that homosexuality can be compared to fetish porn, but people should be aware that in some countries without constitutional protection for free speech (or those with one but with an "obscenity" exception, looking at you Canada) censorship of harmless porn is par for the course.
(Would someone mind explaining why this is being downvoted? In my experience, few people are familiar with such laws in Western countries, and of course I condemn China's laws more; is this comment off topic? Please tell me if I can improve.)
The UK is hardly a touchstone of freedom of erotica. It's not just simulated rape - if you look at the full list of things censored under Cameron, it includes a lot of things that would be considered rather dry by American standards (such as most pornography filmed outdoors).
But yeah, there's very little room for disagreement here, England is known for its ingrained doctrines of legal moralism and legal paternalism.
Or just what is meant by 'damage'? Discourse here is unlikely to be a friendly academic discussion on the meaning of words, but instead another instance of the eternal question "Who? Whom?"
I presume you have some justification for asserting that LGBTQ+ campaigners had issues with that part of the Act because that's a pretty provocative assertion. My recollection (and the only evidence I can find from searching) is some concern from graphic novelists and their publishers that's proved baseless.
Yes, I am sure. Several researchers have noted also there is very little, if any, rational justification for that censorship. On what grounds do you say the concerns of the artists was baseless? My comment on LGBT campaigners was in reference to Cameron's 2015 law on simulated rape pornography.
As a side note, although there were no graphic novelists to speak for me, other regulation on fiction in the UK has had its own effects on my own online activity. The only way you'd know is if you had a keen enough eye to spot my activity cease when I was made aware of the hideous laws in England.
The 20 probably refers to the CPS’s VAWG report in 2012. As I’m sure you’re aware that was 20 cases that had magistrates’ hearings covered by section 62. Not convictions and not just cartoons (I don’t believe there were any cartoons but I could be mistaken). It was somewhat more the following year but still very low, <200.
If that has helped reduce the amount of child porn entering the UK from abroad then that’s great. I doubt it though.
No idea what this has to do with Google.
TBH if your work actually flouts section 62 then I’m 100% ok with you stopping. I see no particular need to support someone’s freedom to express depictions of child sex. Freedom of expression has far more important battles to fight than that.
Do you see the particular need to support someone's freedom to make metal music, regular pornography, films with drug use, online roleplayers, teenagers writing fanfiction, etc? What if a few MPs decided they saw no particular need to support your right to comment on HN?
The fact that there are more important battles does not mean this one should be ignored. Matters of justice have little to do with whether you would support the activity, and much more to do with whether you would support the principle. The question I am asking you is whether people should be punished by the state for possession or creation of these drawings, and if so, why? People's lives are literally at risk over these drawings of fictional characters. Going to prison, potentially being put on the register, etc. is no small deal. Suspended sentences are still on your criminal record.
The numbers I was referring to were specifically on drawn fictional non-photorealistic depictions. As such, that included cartoons (like Japanese hentai). Maybe I read the stats incorrectly, though.
[0] https://www.cps.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/publica... (page 71, A50)