Ask HN: Please critique backscatter argument
After reading several comments on a Hacker News thread, I decided to write a note expressing the implications of the machine and pat-downs. I would appreciate reading your thoughts and ways to improve the content. The original thread:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1848622
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"No worse than a doctor seeing it."
Respectfully, I disagree.
* You can screen your doctor for trustworthiness.
* You can choose to visit a doctor of a gender you prefer.
* Doctors are bound by the Hippocratic Oath: "I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know."
* Doctors rarely take, much less retain, nude photographs of your body.
Collection and use of personal information, including digital photographs, paves a road for government with inscrutable purposes: using information about people while denying them the ability to choose how that information is used. This is a severe tilt in balance between the power of the people and the power of the state. A tilt, to emphasize, that is unfavourable to the people.
In Smith v. City of Artesia, 1989, the court said, "Privacy is inherently personal. The right to privacy recognises the sovereignty of the individual." What is more private than our private parts? What can the general public be subjected to, en masse, that is more personally invasive than a pat-down or nude photo?
Bluntly, the choice is: allow an anonymous agent to take nude photographs of your child, or let strangers grope your child until their hands meet "resistance": a euphemistic way to say, "touch their testicles, penis, or vulva."
Any security measure that forces someone to feel a child's crotch so as to encourage parents to usher their children through a machine that takes nude photographs--without probable cause of having committed a crime--is a measure that aught not to exist.
Violations of our private areas must be countered with outrage and utmost resistance against corporations and governments alike. The TSA are not police and North America has no Police States, yet.
Add to this the uncertain health risks. Terahertz waves have resonant effects that can unzip double-stranded DNA, which could significantly interfere with gene expression and DNA replication. Think children, pregnant women, or sperm. And guess what wave frequency x-ray backscatter machines use? Hint: THz. http://arxiv.org/abs/0910.5294
My emotions surge at the thought of people speaking or acting out against tyranny. People must express themselves vehemently and eloquently against the infractions that governments permit to be made on our freedoms. Sometimes one voice, or one brave action, is enough to inspire a nation. http://i.imgur.com/cfifB.jpg
Martin Niemöller foretells of what happens when people--even those who prefer to drive than fly--keep quiet: They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up.
John Dewey stated, "We cannot separate the idea of ourselves and our own good from our idea of others and of their good." When we protect the rights of individuals by forcing Corporations and Governments to sit at the same table as Respect, Dignity, and Decency, we protect all of our society.
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More reading material: http://davidjarvis.ca/dave/letters/nothing-to-hide.pdf
Thank you for reading, and thank you for the original thread--it is inspiring. I look forward to your feedback.
Suggestions for spreading the word are also welcome.
87 comments
[ 3.9 ms ] story [ 162 ms ] thread- I could see the body scan of the TSA agent who is scanning me.
- The body scans of John S. Pistole (TSA administrator), Janet Napolitano (secretary of Homeland Security), and Barack Obama were made public.
I feel that if body scanning is so important then our national leaders should lead the way in showing how it's not a big deal.
I, however, would gladly permit myself to be scanned on condition that I never had to view the body scans of any of the aforementioned government employees.
That being said, being scanned (and especially having some files stored for unknown length of time) seems to be a very unpleasant prospect for many people. And...
There is going to be a huge outcry when (not if) some TSA employee starts posting some images online - or having a huge stash of them found on their personal computer. Count on it happening.
Are you posturing and drawing a line in the sand with no real intent of following through if they cross? Or would you really go through backscatters with no qualms if they did as you asked?
I still wouldn't like it.
But it's a good question to ask, I think.
If our leaders did release their images publicly I would at least feel that they were acting in good faith and I would be much more wiling to go through the body scanner knowing that they had really put themselves out there...
http://www.stopdigitalstripsearches.org/
I think HN can forgive the redundancy in cases such as this.
This argument is a distraction from the root problem that government is involved in something they shouldn't - citizens traveling freely in their own country. Only when government gets involved in something do rights and other issues like this start getting murky. If a private company ran airport security and SFO demanded you do a body scan, you would go to OAK or SJC. No chance of doing that when government's involved. Even if state government was in charge, you could decide to fly out of JFK or Newark based on preferences.
The TSA at its core is a blatant violation of the 10th amendment. In case you aren't familiar (most people aren't and for some reason most people don't care): The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Arguments like this are a distraction from the core point that the federal government should never have been involved in this at all.
Right here in the ninth amendment: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
The ninth probably should have come first, because that worldview is far more important than any list of specific rights. A free man does as he pleases.
If nude scanning is a constitutional infraction, why didn't anyone mention this in response to the 'unreasonable searches and seizures' of my 'effects' (x-ray'ing my personal belongings, rummaging through my bag, etc etc) that has been going on for decades?
If you only focus your outrage on this trivial, narrow issue, you are being played.
I'm not sure about international travel, but searches for domestic flights are unconstitutional.
Now, how do we effectively fight that?
Regular x-rays and metal detectors can be shown to have stopped a very large proportion of items immediately threatening to passenger safety, and are thus to be considered reasonable. Backscatter have no such advantage (in fact, it seems unlikely they could even have stopped 9/11) and are therefore considered unreasonable.
YMMV, but I don't consider myself "played" for subjecting myself to the less intrusive searches. I do feel like an idiot having to pull out my laptop and toothpaste and having to throw out any drinks.
By that logic however, x-rays machines and metal detectors should never have been permitted in the first place because when they were first introduced they had no track record of utility either. You're right that it's the definition of the word "unreasonable" that's the sticky issue, but I don't think that it's as clear cut as you say it is..
And if it is, is flying on a commercial airliner a human right? You can avoid the search by volunteering to pay more to fly on a private jet.
And if flying is a human right why can't I make a homemade airplane and fly whenever and wherever I want, without registering a flight plan with the FAA? Or use a jetpack?
It would be just as egregious if federal employees were stationed for pat downs and full body scans at the World Series or your local Halloween parade. No pat down, no trick or treat for you!
I find all the Republican arguments that begin with "the constitution applies, except when..." a bit disturbing, frankly.
What specifically enumerated power allows the federal government to create the FDA, robbing me of my right to sell food with ground glass in it, or to sell pills that give you cancer?
What specifically enumerated power allows them to rob me of my right to pour radioactive sludge into a river that's on my property?
If you want to take the Super-libertarian Ron Paul approach, and say they shouldn't be doing these things, that's fine. But that strict interpretation of the Ninth Amendment isn't in practice today.
The FDA, as discussed in the Boat Captain thread, is entirely unnecessary. One potential option, as mentioned, was tort liability for all things not disclosed when the pills were sold.
Clearly defined water rights would more than properly solve number two.
Learn something about other political views before making ridiculous statements. There's no need to write it off by citing some Christian quasi-libertarian who for some reason liberals have adopted as the poster child of libertarianism. Probably just to defame it in the minds of mindless liberal voters.
But I am in a statistical minority that cares about laws being enforced as written. Most of the country is fine with the government having whatever powers it finds expedient at the moment.
You don't need a license to write a book, publish a newsletter, to form some sort of organization and assemble, etc...
Your license can be revoke if (for example) you get too many DUIs.
Your rights to freedom of the press, expression, assembly, etc, can't be revoked.
No.
Thought experiment: Where in the constitution does it say that it's a fundamental human right to use laptops? Now, what do you think the supreme court would have to say about congress deciding you have to deposit an unencrypted copy of your hard drive every week with the Laptop Safety Agency?
Just like Congress can regulate laptops in the interest of public safely, they can regulate air travel in the interest of public safety. But in neither of those situation can they subject citizens to unreasonable searches, no matter if the constitution mentions neither laptops or airplanes.
If you lived in a society that:
To exercise you rights of free expression...Any number of human rights and civil liberties organizations would be going crazy. And although some of these organizations may be against some of these restrictions, like random checkpoints, I don't see any legitimate organizations decrying the idea of licensing drivers.
Your right to drive is in an entirely different class than 'fundamental' rights.
If I'm on a public sidewalk, the default assumption is that I can pass out whatever pamphlets I want. That I can spew out whatever tirades I want to. Even if I'm in the KKK. Because I have a fundamental right to free expression and freedom of the press.
I can do this anywhere in the US. The only time I can get into trouble is if I'm conflicting with someone else' fundamental rights. If I do this at a Walmart, they can kick me out because of their own property rights. But even then, they're not saying I can't express myself, I just can't do it on their property. I can go to the public sidewalk in front of the store and they can't do jack.
I can be one of those assholes that stands on the sidewalk outside of a funeral home and say that this marine is dead because God hates gay people. And when the dad sues me, he'll lose, because I have a fundamental right to free speech.
On a public road, the default assumption is that I'm forbidden from driving unless I've met several criteria first. You start with the assumption that by default I'm not allowed to drive on a public road. And I'm only granted that right (or privilege) once I've established that I'm qualified and safe and using an approved vehicle. Not a fundamental right.
Except that isn't really true. Try doing that on a public sidewalk in a residential neighborhood at 1AM. Your going to run into trouble. The Supreme Court has long held that certain restrictions of speech are acceptable. We're all familiar with shouting "fire" in a crowded theater, but the court has heard countless variations. Much of the courts rulings on the first amendment have clearly been in trying to establish a line between the reasonable restriction while preserving the intent of the amendment.
For instance, the supreme court has dealt with exotic dancing on a few occasions. They've held that the exotic dancing is a form of speech (expression) and therefore subject to first amendment protection. However, at the same time they've consistently allowed for limits on that expression. Including cases like Erie vs. Paps (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/98-1161.ZO.html) in which the court held that the city of Erie could enact certain controls over nude dancing (reversing a Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision).
The point being that in the United States there is no such thing as a 'universal right'. The bill of rights lays out fundamental principles, and the courts are responsible for figuring out how best to satisfy those principles in the real world.
I've often wondered what they would do if they saw clear evidence of criminal activity in a vehicle at one of those checkpoints.
Second, while air travel isn't mentioned, the constitution, as I understand it, applies to everything the federal government might do, and since TSA is a federal agency, what it can and can't do is very much governed by the constitution. Random searches of people driving cars are unconstitutional, even if the constitution doesn't grant you the right to drive. After all, you could walk to (almost) anywhere in the US, right?
If Wal-Mart decided to put up these scanners, it could very well be illegal, but it would never be unconstitutional.
Unless you are within 100 miles of the coast or border. http://www.aclu.org/national-security_technology-and-liberty...
I've been stopped at border-patrol checkpoints 100 miles by driving (so shorter as the crow flies) from the border before. It's certainly "unreasonable" in the 4th amendment context.
Using data provided by the U.S. Census Bureau, the ACLU has determined that nearly 2/3 of the entire US population (197.4 million people) live within 100 miles of the US land and coastal borders.
Where in the US Constitution is the Federal government empowered to compel you to be subjected to dangerous radiation in order to board a common carrier?
And why is this outrage limited to aircraft? I can step in a boat and travel down the local river past all sorts of critical facilities without screening. Every drug dealer in my town gets product from a wholesaler in NYC whose couriers use inter-city busses. You can drive around with legal explosive materials with the exception of some tunnels and bridges.
Really? I live in Hawaii. Its 2200 miles to the next state. Across water.
The interesting thing is that air travel is far more of a natural right than travel by road. At least the government built the roads you travel on.
P.S. celebritynudescans.com is still free... perhaps a fake mockup site would attract media attention?
But the question is much more important than this, so I'd recommend not drawing this particular analogy. The degree to which backscanners are like a physician visit is only minimally related to the degree to which they are intolerable in a free society.
That gives me an idea: demanding that every TSA employee that views backscatter imagery or who does a pat down must first be castrated.
Somebody else in this thread called them high-school drop-outs without getting called on it. This is just ad hominem. Why are we insulting these people? They aren't the ones who passed the law, bought the machines, put these processes in motion. Let's not weaken our argument with distracting crap.
I think most of us would stand up against our employers when asked to do something that we felt was wrong. If your boss said that it was the new regulation that you had to do something immoral, questionable or just downright wrong... would you? I personally take it upon myself to find a new job when placed in that situation, or at least convince my superiors that what they are asking isn't right. I see such as my duty as an employee. I'm not there to follow, but to make things better.
2. On what basis do you see them agreeing with the 'party line'?
3. I don't know you, perhaps you are really serious about giving up your job when you see something wrong. That would be awesome, and I salute you as a better man than me. But on what basis do you make this claim for others? When I look around I see no evidence of any 'us' sacrificing for strangers, for the larger good.
4. I don't feel comfortable asking others en masse to make difficult decisions I've never had to make myself. A lot of these people make far less than you and me and are just struggling to get by, to provide for dependents. How entitled can you get to ask them to give up their jobs in this environment? What have you done to help yourself on this issue, that you demand they sacrifice a livelihood to help total strangers?
5. I think if you look around you'll find something wrong with your company worth leaving. Any company that isn't carbon neutral is doing far more harm than just seeing a few people naked. And no companies are carbon neutral today. So quit. I'll wait. Back? Next, you cause more damage everytime you burn oil in your automotive, or by throwing a light switch. What are you going to do about that?
(not a joke post, serious question for someone who knows how these machines work)
I also don't know how thses machines work, but I assume if the foil was enough to block their view, that your pants would appear the same way that guns, knives and other metal objects appear.
Up until about two months ago, I had never been asked by TSA to be scanned with an AIT device. I've always just used the metal detector. Two months ago I was traveling out of Indianapolis, and was told that ALL passengers were now subject to screening with the millimeter scanner. I politely requested the metal detector and was declined, and was passed to an area for a pat-down.
After this experience, I now get agitated every single time I have to fly. When I'm in the security line I choose the line that appears to be going to the metal detector rather than the AIT scanner. Luckily, I have been able to avoid the scanners since then.
But the fact is, I don't see how the government has a right to see my naked body or touch my private parts without probable cause.
At the last airport I was at, there was a sign showing how many items had been confiscated at airports, like "18 firearms were found", and "3 highly concealed items". So, in an entire year, they only found 3 "highly concealed items"? In that same exact trip through Indianapolis, I accidentally had left a box cutter in my laptop bag which I didn't discovered until getting home. Despite spending all this money scanning, a simple business travel got a razor blade through security without a problem.
I really, really, hope these new procedures and devices get tested in court. I simply can't stand back and let people violate my personal privacy without cause.
EDIT: Apparently, at least one lawsuit was filed in July: http://epic.org/privacy/body_scanners/epic_v_dhs_suspension_...
Was that using the backscatter device? If so, does that mean that pre-backscatter, 18 firearms a year would pass security at that airport? And not a single related incident in the entire US?
I wasn't expecting that type of machine. You have to take everything out of your pockets, and unfortunately, I had a tampon in mine. They made me hold the tampon, and hold my hands over my head, during the scan. Which is already a somewhat sexualized position for women, but I was wearing a shortish t-shirt that rode up a little.
I guess in the future I'll know to make sure my pockets are totally empty and to wear a longer shirt, and it won't be as awful. But it's still too invasive.
We should resurrect Ben Franklin's old adage: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Remember that the machines don't see inside body cavities. So if you, dear backscatter supporter, want to feel better (but not actually be safer), you should be arguing for complete cavity searches everywhere.
I'll let security see me naked if it means I can walk through without a long line and without leaving my wallet and phone out of my sight.
[1] Though watches seem to be fine, as I forgot to take mine off last time and didn't have any trouble. Might be different with larger watches, though.
As these machines are ill-advised, you currently have the option to "opt out" and receive a pat-down instead.
PAT-DOWNS:
New guidelines just instituted for the pat-down procedure include groping of breasts, buttocks, and crotches. [8][15] Even for minors. [13] [14]
"My wife tells me that they grabbed my [10-year-old] son's privates and he was crying the whole time and all she could do was stand there and tell him it was going to be OK." [16]
Due to this, the ACLU is now taking reports of pat-down abuse:
http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/tsa-pat-down-sear...
Note that going through a scan does NOT exempt you from a pat-down grope. You may be groped if you trigger a metal detector, or if your backscatter shows an "anomaly", or for any other reason or no reason at all. There are also gate screenings, where you will be pulled aside at the gate, and since there are no machines, you will be patted down / groped.
IMPACT
About 1 in 5 people are sexually assaulted by age 18. [1]
This means that even "normal" pat-downs are extremely distressing or damaging to a significant percentage of the population, and these new procedures are simply sexual assault under color of authority, which can be traumatic. Victims of sexual assault, molestation, and rape often feel like they are re-living their experiences, and even those who don't have such a background may experience emotional damage from the procedure.
I defy anyone to belittle the experience of victims of sexual abuse, who do not want any unwanted touching forced upon them, least of all groping of private areas.
BACKSCATTER SCANS
All the official images have been redacted. Here is what it REALLY looks like, scaled down:
http://dams.rca.ac.uk/res/sites/Show2006/Images06/John_Wild_...
This is an artist's self-portrait. In addition to clearly seeing his genitals, note the penetration into his kneecaps, shin bones, and feet. Then consider the unprotected areas, such as face, neck, and eyes. Look more closely and you can see the bones in his forearms (radius, ulna), part of his humerus, and his hands.
Then consider the findings of people like David Brenner, the head of Columbia University’s Center for Radiological Research, who explains that the dose is actually 20 times higher than the official estimate. [2] [3] [4] [5]
The energy is absorbed mostly in the skin, NOT throughout the volume of the entire body as with other types of ionizing radiation. Also, the dosage is delivered in a few (under 30) seconds. You have to consider dose per unit time; the figures often mentioned for long flights mention the total dose, which is distributed over a period of HOURS.
PRIVACY
The TSA originally claimed that these machines were simply INCAPABLE of storing images. That wasn't true:
"The documents, released by the Department of Homeland Security, reveal that Whole Body Imaging machines can record, store, and transmit digital strip search images of Americans" [6]
This also goes for MMW (millimeter wave) machines used by courthouses:
"Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images" [7]
ANONYMITY
Some locations are now using a full-color video camera in addition to the backscatter / MMW imager. This means your full-body color portrait and unclothed image can be linked; and if they scan your boarding pass or other identifying information, they can link your images to your name and other personal information (phone number, address, BIRTH DATE). [12]
SLIPPERY SLOPE
Originally the TSA claimed the backscatter machines were optional and there was no penalty for declining (no groping); that they had no capability to store images; that they would NEVER be used as primary screening ...
What if a permanent record was made of everyone's objection to the process - even as they acquiesce?
Sure, this is a little juvenile, but how about the "Hawaiian good luck sign" - as used by the POWs of the USS Pueblo?:
http://www.damninteresting.com/the-seizing-of-the-pueblo (third photo down the page)
"And guess what wave frequency x-ray backscatter machines use? Hint: THz. http://arxiv.org/abs/0910.5294
Sorry. You missed by a multiplier of 10000-10000000. X-rays go from tens of petahertz to tens of exahertz.
X-rays have frequencies way above visible light and terahertz waves have frequencies way below visible light. So this is quite glaring error. Is this intentional to increase doubts about x-ray backscattering or just a honest mistake?
Just to clarify for everyone who requires some source for this claim: "X-radiation (composed of X-rays) is a form of electromagnetic radiation. X-rays have a wavelength in the range of 0.01 to 10 nanometers, corresponding to frequencies in the range 30 petahertz to 30 exahertz (3 × 1016 Hz to 3 × 1019 Hz) and energies in the range 120 eV to 120 keV." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray
[EDIT] Removed few sentences which were written before morning coffee, the post was tad impolite before.
* Doctors dont take a picture of you nude for their enjoyment at a later date