These stories are fun byput why etiquette? Some of course is for gratuitous exclusion and some just to keep people from killing each other (or simply so that you can often know what to do without having to think about it).
But another important factor is hygiene (a form of not killing each other I suppose). As antibiotic resistance increases and vaccination decreases I wonder if there will be a return to serving spoons, butter knives, not wandering around with food etc. Hand washing has already seen a rise in the west over the past couple of decades, with thinks like MRSA bein one of the drivers.
> As antibiotic resistance increases and vaccination decreases I wonder if there will be a return to serving spoons, butter knives, not wandering around with food etc.
Sad thing is, I expect this time solutions will most likely involve a lot more of single-use disposable plastic stuff.
Etiquette is just discipline. once we start dismissing manners as pointless, then we're degrading as a species. We as individuals value certain disciplines over others, or we accuse certain disciplines to be excluding others, but manners is the universal discipline. Being polite has gone out the tube. Parents verbally abuse their own kids, smoke in front of them. Imagine how they treat other peoples. Why? Because they are petty. They are jealous. They hate the rich, hate the poor, hate the black, hate the white, hate the muslim, hate everyone. Why? This is a lack of etiquette. I am not saying we should be militant, but why don't we try to be nice to each other? Why don't we walk in each other shoes?
I'm actually not a huge fan of etiquette. Instead, I value kindness, which in general is universal.
I've found that this attitude of kindness + always trying to be mindful of others feelings to the best of my abilities, I've done well.
Some people wield "etiquette" like a weapon, to look down on and demean people with good intentions.
I'll never shame someone for using the wrong fork or forgetting to take off their shoes or something - but if you call someone out for some petty cultural misunderstanding in front of me, I'll forever remember you as a bully.
manspreading is a sexist term. i am also unsure as to why it gets so much attention. if it must be broken down into a gendered attack, I rarely witnessed it and I use to ride the philadelphia subway everyday. however, I did witness on a daily basis women putting their bags and purses on an additional 1 or more seats.
Putting bags on a second seat is something that people of all genders do. Manspreading is something that is almost exclusively done by men. What's more, generally everybody recognizes that taking up a second seat with a bag is rather rude if there aren't enough seats for everyone, but most men don't even recognize that manspreading is a problem, much less make any effort to stop doing it.
I'm not a man, but mentioned in another comment that manspreading is more about comfort due to having testicles and I can sympathize with that. If the dude is significantly impairing my ability to sit straight on the seat, I will usually spread my legs a little wider to force him to move a little, but if not-- if he's just taking a bit of room-- it doesn't matter so much.
I don't think it's a problem that needs to be solved. Imagine if your discomfort was visual: you're walking on crutches or you have a cast. People would naturally give you more room because they don't want to cause you any pain. Men are not about to say, "excuse me, ma'am, my balls are sweaty and it's not appropriate to adjust them to a certain degree in public, and besides that I don't want to crush them between my legs, so if you don't mind, please forgive me if I take up a bit of room on the seat."
Speaking as someone who used to be a man... that explanation is complete bullshit. Whoever told you that was lying. Men can clamp their legs tightly together without even any testicular discomfort[1]. The only legitimate reason for manspreading to be more prevalent with men is that men tend to have larger thighs, but even that doesn't excuse the practice. Keeping your legs spread a bit may be more comfortable, but that's true for everybody, it's just that women are taught to keep their legs together when sitting and men are not.
In reality, men manspread because they can. Spreading out your body to take up more room discourages someone from sitting next to you. This includes spreading out your shoulders and keeping your arms away from your body too. Most men, if confronted, will defend the practice by saying that they'll move if someone wants to sit next to them. But, though they may not want to admit it, they know that they're intentionally discouraging anyone from sitting next to them, and that most people on mass transit will choose to stand rather than ask a complete stranger to stop hogging the seat.
[1] Under normal circumstances. I'm sure there are medical reasons why someone might have overly tender testicles and experience discomfort doing this, but for the purposes of this conversation we're talking about people without any medical issues.
I also make attempts to discourage people from sitting next to me. This behavior cannot be policed. If you want to sit next to a guy spreading his legs, simply ask him to move over. It's courteous not to attempt to discourage people from using public transit as intended, but it's not a gendered issue that needs widespread media attention chastising males.
But that's the thing, it absolutely is a gendered issue. Woman simply do not manspread. A lot of men do. And the real problem is men do this without even consciously realizing it. This is why raising attention to the issue is important. If men realize they're doing this, then they can choose not to do it (or they can decide to continue being rude of course).
> If you want to sit next to a guy spreading his legs, simply ask him to move over.
That is not an acceptable response. It's a fact that people in general do not feel comfortable talking to strangers on public transit. And it's especially true that women do not feel comfortable confronting strange men. Add to that the fact that everybody can be expected to understand that taking up a seat with their bag is rude, so nodding towards someone's bag as a way of asking "can I sit there?" is acceptable, but most men don't recognize that manspreading is a problem, so you can't just nod towards a seat to mean "can you please minimize your personal space so I can sit there?". You'd have to actually talk to someone, explain that they're taking up too much space, and hope that they don't react poorly to this. This is just not something you can expect people on public transit to do to complete strangers in general, and especially not something you can expect women to do to men.
Manspreading is pretty much exclusively a male problem, and "just ask the person to move" is an example of male privilege. And it's been going on long enough that apparently we do need to keep bringing this up over and over again in public discourse in order to get men to even recognize that there is a problem, much less work to fix it.
Everyone has privileges in life and everyone has disadvantages. Making this an issue about gender hurts everyone. When you hold the group responsible for the actions of individuals in that group, you risk "tribal" war.
Ask the guy to please make some space for you, and move on with your life.
I'm not "making this an issue about gender". It already is one. Pretending it's not is what hurts everybody. Refusing to recognize issues like this only serves to allow them to continue.
Instead of trying to pretend this isn't an issue and making excuses, maybe you should actually listen to all of the women who have had to deal with manspreading. And maybe just start paying attention the next time you're on public transit, any time it's not 100% full already, look around to see just how many men are spreading. Heck, even when it is 100% full, look around for any time you see a woman sitting next to a man and compare how much physical space they're taking up. Even when all the seats are full, men still manspread, and women end up having to minimize the space they take up as a result.
> Ask the guy to please make some space for you, and move on with your life.
It gets attention because it is rude and annoying and subway riders would like it to stop, and, despite your experience, very common, and indeed almost exclusive to men.
I see one or two men "spread" every day on the subway in Boston. Some even do it while someone is seated next to them, forcing their neighbor to sit sideways or be squished. The subway seats are narrower than they ought to be, and many people simply don't fit, but spreading is an act apart.
Never have I seen a woman sit like that on the subway. Granted, it's possible the reason women do not do this is merely one of propriety or upbringing and not conscientiousness. Likewise it's possible the reason men do this is merely obliviousness and not inconsiderateness, posturing, or entitlement. But it is absolutely a predominantly male behavior.
Men have their gonads outside of their bodies and they need to be below body temperature to function properly. When they are too hot, they send the signal of pain to brain. Hopefully this causes an action that reduces the temperature of the gonads and prevent damage. Some men probably have other physical characteristics that exacerbates this heat problem that makes them to want to have their legs spread more than other men. If seats are empty to one side, the spreading of legs should not be seen as some attempt of male dominance, if the man brings them together when someone else comes to sit next to them.
How the term "manspreading" is used, while so many other words are forbidden as offensive, puts on clear display the double standard that many feel is held by mainstream media.
I don't think so, never pain. That being said, it does seem like a more "natural" stance. There does seem to be subtle a reward mechanism for keeping the swimmers cool.
I don't really know what it's like to have testicles, but I imagine it's more comfortable to keep one's legs apart than not, so it's not a problem for me unless his knees are digging into my thighs or he is blocking an empty seat. Usually this isn't the case-- I've noticed men scoot forward a little on the seat with their legs spread so that it isn't an issue.
current title for this on HN is "Two Experts Weigh in on Etiquette of Centuries Past (nytimes.com)" - yet when clicked on, the heading says "Manspreading, Renaissance-Style: 2 Experts Weigh In on Etiquette of Centuries Past"
I know there are char limits and these things change for various reasons. I did read the comments first, so I guess that could have been a clue, however,
I had assumed this was going to be about many etiquette things and perhaps include some the me too and maybe consent things that might be interesting to read some research into past cultural expectation of various behaviors from times past and perhaps places distant and compare to things today, a few years ago and going forward.
Unfortunately from seeing the heading on the page I clicked back so hopefully visiting the page does not count against my monthly free article limit at NYT - as it's not something I would have wasted a monthly visit counter on had I seen the full title of the article before clicking.
26 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 36.0 ms ] threadBut another important factor is hygiene (a form of not killing each other I suppose). As antibiotic resistance increases and vaccination decreases I wonder if there will be a return to serving spoons, butter knives, not wandering around with food etc. Hand washing has already seen a rise in the west over the past couple of decades, with thinks like MRSA bein one of the drivers.
Sad thing is, I expect this time solutions will most likely involve a lot more of single-use disposable plastic stuff.
I've found that this attitude of kindness + always trying to be mindful of others feelings to the best of my abilities, I've done well.
Some people wield "etiquette" like a weapon, to look down on and demean people with good intentions.
I'll never shame someone for using the wrong fork or forgetting to take off their shoes or something - but if you call someone out for some petty cultural misunderstanding in front of me, I'll forever remember you as a bully.
It's hard enough to keep the floorboard gaps of my old wooden floor clean without somebody actively tracking more dirt in.
I don't think it's a problem that needs to be solved. Imagine if your discomfort was visual: you're walking on crutches or you have a cast. People would naturally give you more room because they don't want to cause you any pain. Men are not about to say, "excuse me, ma'am, my balls are sweaty and it's not appropriate to adjust them to a certain degree in public, and besides that I don't want to crush them between my legs, so if you don't mind, please forgive me if I take up a bit of room on the seat."
In reality, men manspread because they can. Spreading out your body to take up more room discourages someone from sitting next to you. This includes spreading out your shoulders and keeping your arms away from your body too. Most men, if confronted, will defend the practice by saying that they'll move if someone wants to sit next to them. But, though they may not want to admit it, they know that they're intentionally discouraging anyone from sitting next to them, and that most people on mass transit will choose to stand rather than ask a complete stranger to stop hogging the seat.
[1] Under normal circumstances. I'm sure there are medical reasons why someone might have overly tender testicles and experience discomfort doing this, but for the purposes of this conversation we're talking about people without any medical issues.
> If you want to sit next to a guy spreading his legs, simply ask him to move over.
That is not an acceptable response. It's a fact that people in general do not feel comfortable talking to strangers on public transit. And it's especially true that women do not feel comfortable confronting strange men. Add to that the fact that everybody can be expected to understand that taking up a seat with their bag is rude, so nodding towards someone's bag as a way of asking "can I sit there?" is acceptable, but most men don't recognize that manspreading is a problem, so you can't just nod towards a seat to mean "can you please minimize your personal space so I can sit there?". You'd have to actually talk to someone, explain that they're taking up too much space, and hope that they don't react poorly to this. This is just not something you can expect people on public transit to do to complete strangers in general, and especially not something you can expect women to do to men.
Manspreading is pretty much exclusively a male problem, and "just ask the person to move" is an example of male privilege. And it's been going on long enough that apparently we do need to keep bringing this up over and over again in public discourse in order to get men to even recognize that there is a problem, much less work to fix it.
Everyone has privileges in life and everyone has disadvantages. Making this an issue about gender hurts everyone. When you hold the group responsible for the actions of individuals in that group, you risk "tribal" war.
Ask the guy to please make some space for you, and move on with your life.
Instead of trying to pretend this isn't an issue and making excuses, maybe you should actually listen to all of the women who have had to deal with manspreading. And maybe just start paying attention the next time you're on public transit, any time it's not 100% full already, look around to see just how many men are spreading. Heck, even when it is 100% full, look around for any time you see a woman sitting next to a man and compare how much physical space they're taking up. Even when all the seats are full, men still manspread, and women end up having to minimize the space they take up as a result.
> Ask the guy to please make some space for you, and move on with your life.
This is a perfect example of male privilege.
I am a woman.
If a man is taking up too much space and I want to sit next to him, I ask him to move over. Never had a single issue.
I see one or two men "spread" every day on the subway in Boston. Some even do it while someone is seated next to them, forcing their neighbor to sit sideways or be squished. The subway seats are narrower than they ought to be, and many people simply don't fit, but spreading is an act apart.
Never have I seen a woman sit like that on the subway. Granted, it's possible the reason women do not do this is merely one of propriety or upbringing and not conscientiousness. Likewise it's possible the reason men do this is merely obliviousness and not inconsiderateness, posturing, or entitlement. But it is absolutely a predominantly male behavior.
I see it nearly daily on trains in Brisbane. I also see idiots "manspreading" about as often. Shit people are shit people.
How the term "manspreading" is used, while so many other words are forbidden as offensive, puts on clear display the double standard that many feel is held by mainstream media.
The worst I experience is sweat-related discomfort, the same manner of discomfort with any sweating body area.
I suspect that biological "explanations" are little more than folklore, and manspresding is just a case of comfort via familiarity.
I know there are char limits and these things change for various reasons. I did read the comments first, so I guess that could have been a clue, however,
I had assumed this was going to be about many etiquette things and perhaps include some the me too and maybe consent things that might be interesting to read some research into past cultural expectation of various behaviors from times past and perhaps places distant and compare to things today, a few years ago and going forward.
Unfortunately from seeing the heading on the page I clicked back so hopefully visiting the page does not count against my monthly free article limit at NYT - as it's not something I would have wasted a monthly visit counter on had I seen the full title of the article before clicking.
It should read: Manspreading, Renaissance-Style: 2 Experts Weigh In on Etiquette of Centuries Past
NYT clickbate