What I really liked about this article is that this idea looks like it could be applied just about anywhere. What I think the folks in Atlanta need to do next is to produce a manual that shares what they've learned, what works and what doesn't.
Then you could realistically launch in other cities like Detroit that appears to be tailor made for this type of program.
You should read the story about the founder. It is an amazing company, and product! I wish more companies would give some felons a second chance. Not everybody is "bread" (hah!) to be a felon. Not everybody is hopeless, but as a society we sure stack the deck against them by denying them decent employment after they've paid their debt to society. Companies like DKB are much needed. They've changed a lot of lives for the better, and I'm sure have kept more than a few criminals from returning to their former "profession" by giving them skills and paying a living wage. http://www.daveskillerbread.com/our-history/#our-history-1
So that's what they mean by "killer" bread. On a more serious note, of the 12 ex-felons on their website, 2 are black males and 5 are women. This is highly nonrepresentative of prison demographics.
It seems likely that, for the same reasons normal companies prefer not to hire ex-felons at all, Dave's Killer Bread might prefer to hire ex-felons who are slanted toward the nonviolent end of the ex-felon pool.
To be fair, they probably learned it from Detroit. It's just a lot less formal in Detroit than the program they put together in Atlanta. And it's done more to put food on the table by necessity in Detroit rather than as a sort of public works kind of thing.
Atlantan here. I got a bottle of their hot sauce with my CSA and it's really good. I'm not normally a big vinegar-sauce guy, but their recipe has lavender in it and it's pleasantly funky. Recommended!
Ooh, I love the smell of lavender, but I've only had it in desert foods, which didn't work for me (lavender and lemon cake really rubbed me the wrong way.) I've never even thought of lavender in more savory food.
Such an awesome program and a great way to tackle multiple tough problems (how to reduce recidivism rates; how to solve the food desert problem in urban areas; how to improve the health & nutrition of the black community) with one solution.
Programs like this really give me hope, I wish there were more incentives from the government to spark innovations like this; monolithic solutions like food stamps and medicaid are strong programs that I support, but on the other end I'd like to see more funding for "micro-service" programs like this that solve issues on a census tract scale.
This is one of the most positive articles I've read all year. This program looks so powerful as a community driver. I can't wait to see what will change in the next 20 years if this keeps growing. The picture of people doing yoga was great. I'm not interested in churches as a community event, but if my town had a movement like this I'd definitely volunteer if it was accessible.
I’m curious as to how they manage rival gang factions. In the first picture alone I noticed three gang signs. Perhaps they stick to their own groups? Not sure but would be interesting to know how that works.
That stood out to me as well. Palm inward on the peace sign is considered offensive to some and the looks on the faces of the guys with the gang signs do not look happy at all.
disclosure: I am a former inmate at a regional detention center in the midwest. I work as an engine mechanic now.
Prison quality varies dramatically around the country. Some prisons are only interested in turning a profit or keeping the lights running, so youll be scrubbing dishes and floors for "shit tickets" and soap. These places are miserable. the people who work at these places are equally miserable. they barely earn more than you. These places serve no purpose but to make shareholders rich. they only make money so long as you are there.
Good, state run prisons, have every incentive in the world to offer competent education in farming, machining, or trade (part of what I learned.) A good prison can help heal your soul, and learn about yourself.
The real challenge isnt getting ex-convicts to work, its getting employers to hire them. Since in the US youre legally required to disclose your former convictions and felonies, most ex-convicts are barred from ever rejoining the workforce (or society for that matter.) Its biblical retribution.
convicts arent evil demons. Most of the circumstances that landed them in prison would really surprise you. Entrepreneurship might just be the only way to break out of the sorry cycle of unemployment, and I for one really hope Atlanta turns this into something sustained.
With each of these institutions it's not so much a problem of being run for profit but rather one of misaligned incentives.
Commercially run prisons where the operators get paid based on a lack of recidivism in former inmates rather than the time those inmates spend at the facility could help with alleviating some of the problems with the current prison system in the US.
Given the current state of those institutions, obviously those metrics are too difficult to define and measure and/or are too easy and profitable to corrupt.
Measuring the value of something in terms of time spent for its creation or delivery rather than its actual value because defining these value metrics is too difficult is a problem with many economic transactions.
However, with these institutions in particular I'd say the metrics a pretty well-defined:
- both prisons and healthcare: Lack of recidivism, time until you're a productive member of society again
- prisons and universities: Economic welfare of former 'inmates'. Some universities for example operate on a business model where they get paid a share of the graduate's income for a few years after graduation.
Sure, like many metrics these probably could be gamed but they're way better than current metrics, including those state-run institutions of these kinds operate with (if they have any metrics at all, that is).
The problem is also that you must make the game advantageous to all party involved So if you allow a prison to run for profit you must devise incentives that allows the prison a certain "guaranteed" profit.
What is hard is not just finding good metrics (that cannot be gamed), it is finding good metrict (that cannot be gamed) that can also provide profits to good players.
There's no such thing as guaranteed profit in a free market system, yet free markets seem to provide ample incentive for players to participate.
Obviously, there's no guarantee that a former inmate won't commit another crime even if the rehabilitative measures he experienced while doing time were exemplary. However, there's also no guarantee that in the university example a graduate will find a well-paid job. Still, there are universities that have successfully implemented this business model.
There's a whole industry that's predicated on this kind of uncertainties: The insurance industry. While there's no guaranteed outcome risks and probabilities can be calculated and factored into the price of a service.
The question perhaps is: What value do we as a society allocate to a former convict likely not committing crimes in the future anymore but contributing to society instead?
Considering the alternative, i.e. a former convict not only being a liability to society but also being highly likely to commit crimes in the future, I'd that service should come with quite a high price tag.
Given the (apparent) ethical black hole that is the current for-profit prison system, I’d be very worried what they might do to (instead of for) inmates to discourage recidivism.
This isn't biblical retribution. In the Bible, there are consequences for crime, for sure… but there are also the concepts of restitution and restoration.
You weren't punished forever. Forgiveness existed.
You weren't in debt forever. There was an end in sight.
Look up "Jubilee".
IF ONLY we had that today.
I think the only thing coming close to this concept has to do with your credit history, and things falling off after 7 years.
> The possible redemption from the predicament of irreversibility - of being unable to undo what one has done - is the faculty of forgiving. The remedy for unpredictability, for the chaotic uncertainty of the future, is contained in the faculty to make and keep promises. Both faculties depend upon plurality, on the presence and acting of others, for no man can forgive himself and no one can be bound by a promise made only to himself.
Although an interesting though I've had is that in the future people might get sent to jail on purpose for a non-violent offense because they'll essentially educate you while providing free room and board. There was a 60 minutes episode on an inmate who essentially was able to educate himself enough about the law to help appeal other convicts sentences and he became a lawyer when he got out.
I joke about this. 3 years ago I was giving conference talks, now I am seemingly chronically unemployed and homeless in Silicon Valley, working odd jobs (eg. Christmas tree lot, trench digging). Jail sounds nice.
There's a reason that it's called penitentiary. It's because you're supposed to repent and show penance. It's meant to rehabilitate and return people to society after they have not only intellectually understood and apologized for their actions, but actually successfully modified their behavior to become a successful member of society.
Now while that is the intent, it does not mean it has not been corrupted. My main point is your idea of learning a skill is 100% what the Bible encourages. Not the punishment. Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone and all that.
Perhaps it's time to return these institutions to their proper purpose by actually discussing what we think should be a crime, and what we think the consequences should be from the ground up.
Good luck with that though when we can't even decide if the other side is evil or not.
There is a small, growing movement called the "Ban the box" movement. It's intended to change laws around employment hiring, to stop people from asking whether you have a criminal background (with some exceptions for crimes like rape or murder, usually);
specifically recognizing the difficulty returning citizens have in getting back on their feet. When the labor pool for returning citizens is so small, so constrained, and the jobs aren't that great, it's just another factor working against their reintegrating into society.
I for one think the ban the box movement is an absolutely fantastic idea, and hope it gains steam.
> “I was so used to seeing death that I didn’t know how it’d feel to see something grow,” Trent said. “To see plants grow full of life, from something I control, it’s probably the best feeling in the world.
This made my whole day, maybe my whole week. I can also say I agree wholeheartedly. There's something magical and healing about plants, and getting your hands in the dirt. I highly recommend it.
I'm surprised this is understood so positively. The article is revealing how much discrimination is happening. It is obviously being economically rooted, also if you look at the history.
That being said, farming is the least economically interesting thing to do.
I'm not saying this is not interesting but this is picked up surprisingly positively. But if you ask in terms of solutions, it seems to make more sense to tackle the socio-economic root causes instead of creating another vicious circle.
Alright ;) My argument is purely based on observing the past and the present. Georgia has a history of slavery, one might argue the state has his wealth build on that, the peach being the symbol of it. Virtually all of the slaves had African American heritage and self-speaking low income.
Of course slavery has become illegal, segregation rules as well. But obviously you cannot make the past disappear instantly. Nowadays there are areas in which there are only black people living, those areas are unfortunately poor and large. Presumably a lot of crime happens there, which should also be no surprise because the area is so poor. People get imprisoned, even worse, sometimes the police has a negative bias towards black people.
So yes, and nowadays the state endorses putting the people back on the field? These seems almost insulting to me. Probably it's easy for me to think like this, I don't live in the U.S. but on the other hand probably all developed nations have a archaic past. It's one thing to deal with it and another thing to pretend it didn't happen.
45 comments
[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 94.2 ms ] threadThen you could realistically launch in other cities like Detroit that appears to be tailor made for this type of program.
Programs like this really give me hope, I wish there were more incentives from the government to spark innovations like this; monolithic solutions like food stamps and medicaid are strong programs that I support, but on the other end I'd like to see more funding for "micro-service" programs like this that solve issues on a census tract scale.
Prison quality varies dramatically around the country. Some prisons are only interested in turning a profit or keeping the lights running, so youll be scrubbing dishes and floors for "shit tickets" and soap. These places are miserable. the people who work at these places are equally miserable. they barely earn more than you. These places serve no purpose but to make shareholders rich. they only make money so long as you are there.
Good, state run prisons, have every incentive in the world to offer competent education in farming, machining, or trade (part of what I learned.) A good prison can help heal your soul, and learn about yourself.
The real challenge isnt getting ex-convicts to work, its getting employers to hire them. Since in the US youre legally required to disclose your former convictions and felonies, most ex-convicts are barred from ever rejoining the workforce (or society for that matter.) Its biblical retribution.
convicts arent evil demons. Most of the circumstances that landed them in prison would really surprise you. Entrepreneurship might just be the only way to break out of the sorry cycle of unemployment, and I for one really hope Atlanta turns this into something sustained.
Commercially run prisons where the operators get paid based on a lack of recidivism in former inmates rather than the time those inmates spend at the facility could help with alleviating some of the problems with the current prison system in the US.
However, with these institutions in particular I'd say the metrics a pretty well-defined:
- both prisons and healthcare: Lack of recidivism, time until you're a productive member of society again
- prisons and universities: Economic welfare of former 'inmates'. Some universities for example operate on a business model where they get paid a share of the graduate's income for a few years after graduation.
Sure, like many metrics these probably could be gamed but they're way better than current metrics, including those state-run institutions of these kinds operate with (if they have any metrics at all, that is).
What is hard is not just finding good metrics (that cannot be gamed), it is finding good metrict (that cannot be gamed) that can also provide profits to good players.
Obviously, there's no guarantee that a former inmate won't commit another crime even if the rehabilitative measures he experienced while doing time were exemplary. However, there's also no guarantee that in the university example a graduate will find a well-paid job. Still, there are universities that have successfully implemented this business model.
There's a whole industry that's predicated on this kind of uncertainties: The insurance industry. While there's no guaranteed outcome risks and probabilities can be calculated and factored into the price of a service.
The question perhaps is: What value do we as a society allocate to a former convict likely not committing crimes in the future anymore but contributing to society instead?
Considering the alternative, i.e. a former convict not only being a liability to society but also being highly likely to commit crimes in the future, I'd that service should come with quite a high price tag.
You weren't punished forever. Forgiveness existed.
You weren't in debt forever. There was an end in sight.
Look up "Jubilee".
IF ONLY we had that today.
I think the only thing coming close to this concept has to do with your credit history, and things falling off after 7 years.
-- Hannah Arendt
Also, you are not legally required to disclose your former convictions, unless you are asked. It is smart to do so, though.
Although an interesting though I've had is that in the future people might get sent to jail on purpose for a non-violent offense because they'll essentially educate you while providing free room and board. There was a 60 minutes episode on an inmate who essentially was able to educate himself enough about the law to help appeal other convicts sentences and he became a lawyer when he got out.
I know if I was homeless I would consider it
Now while that is the intent, it does not mean it has not been corrupted. My main point is your idea of learning a skill is 100% what the Bible encourages. Not the punishment. Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone and all that.
Perhaps it's time to return these institutions to their proper purpose by actually discussing what we think should be a crime, and what we think the consequences should be from the ground up.
Good luck with that though when we can't even decide if the other side is evil or not.
specifically recognizing the difficulty returning citizens have in getting back on their feet. When the labor pool for returning citizens is so small, so constrained, and the jobs aren't that great, it's just another factor working against their reintegrating into society.
I for one think the ban the box movement is an absolutely fantastic idea, and hope it gains steam.
"It's like printing money."
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EzZzZ_qpZ4w
This made my whole day, maybe my whole week. I can also say I agree wholeheartedly. There's something magical and healing about plants, and getting your hands in the dirt. I highly recommend it.
That being said, farming is the least economically interesting thing to do.
You made an assertion, I'm curious how you will back it up, if at all.
The stage is yours.
Of course slavery has become illegal, segregation rules as well. But obviously you cannot make the past disappear instantly. Nowadays there are areas in which there are only black people living, those areas are unfortunately poor and large. Presumably a lot of crime happens there, which should also be no surprise because the area is so poor. People get imprisoned, even worse, sometimes the police has a negative bias towards black people.
So yes, and nowadays the state endorses putting the people back on the field? These seems almost insulting to me. Probably it's easy for me to think like this, I don't live in the U.S. but on the other hand probably all developed nations have a archaic past. It's one thing to deal with it and another thing to pretend it didn't happen.