Ask HN: Anyone else here struggle with the alcohol?
I thought it might be worthwhile and somewhat cathartic to ask this question here. I'm a long time, accomplished techie and a bit of a serial entrepreneur. I also wonder if I might be a bit of a functioning alcoholic.
I've been drinking regularly since my early teens. In the area of the country where I grew up it was about the only thing to do. I drank too much in high school, college, and grad school, and the initial stages of my PhD, all the while still managing to ace most of my coursework.
Fortunately, I married a very stubborn woman, and she's cut down my drinking substantially. However, I still drink at least 4 times a week, and each night on average 3-6 high alcohol beers.
Even still, I'm not a violent drunk or really a drunk in general. I have developed a pretty high tolerance, so the drinks I have just place me into a comfortable mood, not a stupor. I'm a loving, affectionate husband and father; I just find that alcohol takes the edge off my life. I've quit at times for periods of a month with no sort of withdrawal symptoms, so I don't believe I'm physically addicted. I've always had a bit of an addictive personality, so I think my dependence is largely psychological.
The problem is, my drinking is impulsive. I'm in a senior leadership role by day and I work on my entrepreneurial endeavors by night. I wake up most mornings telling myself it's going to be all work on my ideas when I get home that evening, but by 7 pm the stress of the day makes that beer (and couch time with the wife) so much more appealing.
I'm worried on too fronts: a., the things I'm not able to accomplish because I procrastinate through alcohol, and b., health problems.
Regaring a., how much could I have accomplished if I didn't impusively give in and drink a beer or six? I've had at least one project that's dragged on now for 3 months and I attribute at least some of that drag to beer. If I'm honest with myself, a number of my other projects have suffered because of this same drag on productivity. Hangovers and the general malaise the day after make it very difficult to keep up and focused at times.
Regarding b., my blood pressure has become borderline high over the last two years (I'm in my late 30s), and I am guessing that alcohol has a lot to do with it. If marijuana were to become legal, I'd definitely be open to switching to that, but as it is my wife is totally against it because of its legal status. I've used it in the past and found it to be a wonderful alternative to alcohol. Again, I'm not addicted to the feeling alcohol gives you, but to the edge it takes off my life.
Anyway, I'd love to hear from other HNers regarding insights or tips. I've read that substance abuse in general tends to be common in those with higher IQs, so I imagine there are at least a few of you who have been, or are here, with me.
126 comments
[ 4.3 ms ] story [ 215 ms ] threadEdit: And whatever you do talk to your doc.
Tea, milk (which you'll probably want to drink if you're doing any heavy exercising, to gain weight), ice cold water, even wine have been good substitutes for me. I find that I am usually just very thirty, and if I can quench my thirst initially and have something to sip every few minutes, I no longer reach for a beer.
That said, whatever you choose has to be something that you find relaxing. If you find tea or wine to be a hassle and not relaxing, try something else.
a) As soon as you get off work exercise. hit the driving range, swim, go to gym, run. Hire a trainer and pay in advance for 3 months so there's a penalty for not doing it. Exercise is the worst enemy of stress and alcohol.
b) Wake up early to work on your start-up projects, and flip your addiction to two cups of good coffee in the AM. It's much easier to be unproductive come evening, the old "Idle Hands Are The Devil's Tools" is especially true. Get up at 5am - you're not going to drink before work, and you're going to pass your ass out about 9 - 9:30 each night.
Neither sounds easy, but both are rewarding when you get over the preliminary hump of getting into a routine.
Actually this is not a good motivator, find something you like, otherwise you end up with a 3 month (or a year :P) gym etc. pass and still not exercise. With this kind of forcing you might actually start hating exercise.
And that's what you have, is an addiction. Your post and your comments showcase just about every trait of alcoholism.
There are medicines which greatly treat the desire/need to drink, your doctor can suggest one which can help you change your life in the manner you'd wish to. They are far more effective than group based therapy.
Here are some: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism#Medications
Topiramate in particular sounds to be compelling for you (and many others) as you can still drink like a normal person on it, however you feel the need/desire to much less.
Many alcoholics are self medicating depressives or various other things which are solved by medications much less harmful over the longterm than alcohol. The fact you're drinking to avoid something might put you in that category.
Are you an alcoholic? Eh, maybe. Who cares. Are you drinking more than you like? Yes. Go see the doc, get the meds if you and he thinks it a good idea, and reduce that to the level you find acceptable.
Why not try something natural first like counseling, exercise, meditation, etc? I'm sincerely curious why your immediate response is to use medication to solve the problem.
Additionally, all of those take MUCH more time than the trip to the pharmacy once a month. As the person in question would like to have more time to do his entrepreneurial things...time seems to be important.
AA in particular, which is based around abstinence, changes your life a lot, especially friendships involving moderate social drinking.
The medical approaches clearly tell you the side effects up front. The non-medical ones do not. The medical approaches do not change your interaction with your co-workers, friends and other colleges significantly. Non-medical ones often do. Medical approaches are shown to have much higher long term success rates than non-medical approaches.
Exercise and meditation have their own benefits, however neither are things that people often take up in a lifelong manner, it's more likely to take them up for awhile then quit.
However counseling is a hugely mixed bag, especially group therapy.
Additionally, if there is an underlying problem (such as depression), solving that can completely remove the desire to drink at all.
Go to the doctor for your problems. Medical problems are best solved early. Then you often have non-medical solutions available too.
If they want to actually repeal health care, they are going to have to wait until they have a Republican president, or a veto-proof majority, which won't happen until 2012 at the earliest. There may not be repeal momentum left at that point.
Slightly more on-topic, having things like this on your medical record is a concern, but I think keeping one's good health should always be more important than insurance details that may or may not make any difference.
b. health problems: you do seem to drink beyond what we can describe as "moderate", so this is a real issue.
It sounds like you should look for other ways to relax in addition to alcohol. And then cut back a little.
Try something else, be it exercise, a cup of tea, or reading. Change the tool that you use to smooth the edges.
Some people do thrive on a personally suitable level of intoxication, I used to find it far easier to work after a beer or more preferably a smoke.
That changed over the last couple of years and now even a small drink or smoke leaves me unable to work properly for at least a day afterward, and I had to change my habits.
To the OP I say you've hit the first step, you've realised that something you do is having a negative effect on your life, whichever way you choose to make a change let me just say it is worth it, and if you have a couple of people to share it with it wont be difficult.
I suggest that if you find somebody you can talk to frankly at the times you struggle just having a chance to whinge will make things easier.
And if you're physical health is suffering, as people said, go see the doc.
Cheers
Especially considering the extent to which (so-called) anti-depressants and anti-anxiety drugs are being recognized for what they always have been -- a pseudo-scientific, market-driven fad (for the vast majority of cases which the companies making them have touted them as being useful for).
In any case he almost certainly doesn't need to go on pills -- and by definition, if he doesn't need them (and very, very few people do) he shouldn't start experimenting with them.
Please see also:
For me, in the past, this has meant stopping work all together so I could get enough downtime for my brain to sort out wtf is going on. Things fall in to perspective over time. It took me about a month. If that's not for you, try and reduce your main job to 3-4 days a week on health grounds and use the rest of the time to sort yourself out.
You might want to consider volunteering at an alcohol abuse centre to help you realign your use of alcohol.
Remember, first and foremost it's your life, you've only got one of them so anyone/anything that isn't helping you get to where you want to be should be removed from you life.
It's not going to help though if work isn't the catalyst. Maybe you expect too much of yourself and crumble under your own pressure, maybe you fear failure and alcohol is a convenient excuse, maybe you are heading toward a mental break down. Who knows?
This is gonna sound a bit silly but keeping a mood diary with data about alcohol consumption, mood swings etc might help you step away from the problem far enough to see it in all it's glory.
Finding a mechanism to step back and see the bigger picture often helps. If your family isn't the problem they could be your biggest help in this.
Good luck
Of course we'd all agree that the OP should probably seek medical support regardless of the rambling of a few people on the internet :)
So, decide not to drink alcohol for 4 weeks starting today. If you can't manage it, you will know the former is the problem. If you can, you will have made a great start to addressing the latter.
edit- spell
Have you tried using a reward strategy like I would only drink and chill out after a couple of days when task X is finished? Gradually you can then reduce your drinking days from 4 per week to 1 (or zero).
IMO, it is very difficult to get off alcohol or any other addiction suddenly. It is more effective to tone it down gradually.
But at the end of the day, if it is not working for someone, (s)he would have to find another way.
It sounds like we have similar work responsibilities. I too am married. Up until June of this year I would drink a few glasses of wine and/or cranberry and vodka each night “to relax”. In June I was asking myself why am I drinking several nights a week. I wondered what it would be like to never drink alcohol again. So I quit. The only exception was during a Caribbean cruise. I don’t regret drinking it then and may consider it for future vacations.
For me, I find myself as a leader at the office, at home and at church. Not having alcohol is also consistent with my new minimalist lifestyle and consistent with my mindset that I don’t need everything I want.
The part I miss drinking the most, I my lack of variety on beverages while eating dinner.
Best of luck to you, hopefully you will find out you are not addicted.
perhaps find a less stressful job or find a way to make what you have now less stressful? alcohol sounds like its your default coping mechanism for stress. as mentioned already, exercise will probably help, too, but it sounds like this might be treating the symptoms, not the problem.
Out of 6 billion people no one cares if you get sick, die or have possible alcohol problems. So it's your responsibility to take care of your life. So just grab it by the hornes and say "I think I've had too much alcohol so far. From this second on I will never drink again.". And then stop doing it. There's no middle ground. Its either you do it or you dont.
You can spend as much time as you'd like rationalizing your addiction (which, based on your comments, you seem to be) but ultimately it comes down to a choice: Stop, or don't stop.
I speak from experience here. I quit smoking after smoking a pack a day for a decade. It took a long time, and it took alot of honesty with myself: Recognizing that I was rationalizing "just one more" because "I had a bad day" and that I couldn't quit because my lifestyle didn't accomodate it, etc etc.
Cut the crap and stop. If you can't stop on your own, turn to professional help.
Edit: Pack a day, not week.
There's a substantial body of medical evidence emerging (not to mention 10,000 years of recorded human experience) indicating that lower levels of alcohol consumption (~1 drink a day) aren't just safe, or merely "not so bad", but in fact -- when accompanied by certain eating habits -- can be quite good for you.
There is alot of rationalization on his part throughout this thread, and speaking as someone who had a bonafide addiction and kicked it, I recognize what he's going through.
There are no two ways about it. Addiction is a problem with no tepid, dipping-your-toe-in-the-water approach to solving it.
10 000 years of recorded human experience only tells you that minimal alcohol consumption is not catastrophically bad for you, not that it is "safe".
I hold the result inconclusive, then, on the subject of alcohol itself. Good info, though, thank you!
But a real alcoholic can't just stop at a few drinks. For them, it is a binary decision. It's very rare to find a former alcoholic who now drinks lightly or moderately. Most can only overcome it by quitting entirely.
So even if someone anecdotally knows a recovering alcoholic who can drink in moderation this is very likely to only be the case in the short term.
My point is simply that in the general population[1], patterns of alcohol (mis)use seem to fall on a fairly wide spectrum, and are not simply a matter of "isa" or "!isa" alcoholic.
*[1] based on careful sampling and rigorous application of standard methodologies, i.e. "considering people I know."
That's how I started, in my 20s. I quit for a few years, but didn't develop "good" habits, and went back to drinking. Got worse and worse. I managed to ship a bunch of product and do several start-ups, but it eventually caught up with me.
Frankly, if you're worried, try not drinking for a month (_Alcoholics Anonymous_ recommends a year). If you can't do it, you might have a problem. That's for you to decide.
If you are in trouble, then going to AA isn't a disaster, and it might save your butt. It might even be fun. (I've met executives and science fiction writers and a bunch of other interesting people). I suppose there's other stuff that works; I can't speak to that.
Whatever you decide, good luck.
So, I had the similar problem, and here is what I did:
- Exercise during the week and don't drink alcohol at all during the week. Exercise in the morning is preferable.
- On weekends, drink. But only if you exercised at least 3 times a week.
Personally (I don't currently code except the odd snippet here and there) I find I can have a few whiskys without it impacting any work I decide to get done in the evening.
I definitely enjoy drinking within certain limits, but I've also come to realize (after a career trajectory pretty similar to yours) that excessive substance (ab)use of any kind is basically incompatible with a serious, high-output lifestyle.
It all boils down to the fact that being highly productive is a choice that demands certain sacrifices; chiefly, the sheer amount of time you have to devote to it. And the fact that, health effects aside, the level of drinking you're describing cuts into your available time budget quite drastically.
In any case, 4 or more drinks night after night (or nearly so) sounds not just excessive, but distinctly unpleasant.
So as to practical suggestions: try to pick some hard, if not puritanical limits, and stick to them. Pick a magic number -- say 4 -- as your hard daily limit, then make a decision to keep to it. After this, I would try whittling down the down the "heavy" days (3 or more) to a more manageable level also, say no more than 1x a week. Then stick to that, also.
It's like any other optimization problem, in that sense: first make the problem quantifiable; the set a performance goal (40% volume reduction, say); keep it in place for a while; then do some A/B testing.
For me, what it came down to was that I realized that after a certain level (2-3 in one sitting, or thereabouts) I was getting virtually none of the "benefits" (such as they are) of stress reduction or general easing of mood, while the negatives just kept piling up disproportionately.
Another tip: if you must drink, try at least drinking better quality (if more expensive) stuff. The thing is, the cheaper stuff ends up upsetting your general metabolism (and mood) in a whole lot of ways, so you end up needing to consume more alcohol to counteract this. And wine (especially red wine) is a whole lot better for you than beer, in a whole bunch of ways.
Lastly: please don't consider switching to pot (nevermind the legal status). It's quite different from alcohol, and in my view, deeply insidious, in that it goads us into not just getting on a bit of a breeze, but totally baked, all the while conning us into thinking this isn't harmful.
And because it seems (at least superficially) to be so intellectually stimulating -- that is, it tricks us into thinking that we're having productive thoughts, when most of the time we're not, and even when we are, we find ourselves far less capable of sorting them out and putting them into action the next day (or for far longer than that).
Upshot being that for some reason, long-term potheads seem to be in an incredible amount of denial about the diminishing positive returns, and increasingly negative effects that accompany continued heavy use of their favorite substance. One of the key feature of alcohol (by contrast) is that even its biggest fans readily admit that its effects are largely deleterious (beyond a certain point), and seem to instinctively realize, at least intellectually, that it gets in the way of serious work (and sensitive social situations) -- and in general, whether they're able to put the brakes on it or not, is just plain bad for them on some level.
a) Eat healthy, lots of vegetables and fruits, drink lots of water, whole-grain stuff. makes you feel less like drinking beer. b) No beers at home. Buy your beers on the same day. c) In the evening go to work at a starbucks to do your side-projects. d) Once a year I make a detox month like you (no alcohol, ciggies, etc), my most productive month usually :) e) Not drinking at all is much easier then only limiting yourself. Maybe not drink at all the last week of a month? f) smoke it up! but careful, soon you'll be sipping beers while smoking joints. g) take a bath, makes you feel like 2-3 beers
Likewise I work on my entrepreneurial endeavors at night after my day job, and often times I am so burned out and tired from the day. I will drink something heavily caffeinated on the way home from work, with the hope that it will boost my focus and mental performance, but so many times I just want to crash when I get home. A number of times I've crashed right after drinking the large Red Bull (always sugar free).
A typical day for me is: working out in the morning, taking 3 scoops of jack3d before-hand (pre-workout caffeine-heavy supplement). Drink a Low Carb Rockstar when I get to work, get a double or triple espresso around 2pm, and a couple sodas throughout the day, then another Rockstar when I get home. If I'm still dragging, I will take a few more scoops of jack3d as well, just for mixing up the caffeine sources.
I think my mindset is so performance driven, but my body/mind feel so weary. The first few times I had 3-4 cans of Red Bull in one day I got ultra paranoid. Now it's like the stuff doesn't even affect me except for the expense. $10/day or more just on caffeinated beverages that are not providing me any benefit.
I find it extremely difficult to cut back, but I have to, because I consider it a negative addiction. For what it's worth I'm in my mid 30s, am extremely healthy, and my blood pressure is actually LOW.
It sounds like you put off more work because you're burnt out. Don't feel bad about this. Everyone needs some down time. If you drink beer as part of that down time, don't worry about it, and don't blame the beer (it's the effect, not the cause). The only reason you should be worried about beer is if you mean to only relax for a little bit and then get back to work, and the beer keeps you relaxing longer than you want.
You probably are psychologically addicted. What you need to evaluate is whether you mind that you are addicted. Suppose you'd need to relax all night anyway, if you weren't drinking. Then beer after work is not necessarily a problem. If you have no other problems associated with alcohol, then who the hell cares if you're addicted?
Regarding health problems, high gravity beer is probably not the healthiest drink you could mix. Try switching to 1 or 2 (or 3, I guess) glasses of red wine. A different type of alcohol may cut around your tolerance for beer, so you'll drink less, and red wine in moderate amounts (I don't think 3 glasses is still considered moderate, but w/e) keeps being called healthy. You'll also cut out the massive calories that come with 3-6 high gravity beers. Alternatively, learn to mix drinks and start getting creative. :-)
I can imagine that exercising with a hangover would suck, but I don't know how it's dangerous....
As for drinking too much, sure man I drink more than one serving about 3-4 times a week, some weeks it is 0 some weeks it is 7, especially when I'm in a town where I have lots of old friends or family. It does take effort to make sure to do so responsibly and to take breaks. For example, I do 40 days once a year with absolutely 0 intake, even down to ordering a nonalcoholic becks at a after work meeting. I go up to the bartender and tell him discretely that when I order a becks to make sure it is in a glass, but to simply give me a non-alcoholic one. I've never been to a bar that didn't have some, so it must be pretty common. The reason I take a long break is to stop the slow evolution from 4 days a week to 4.2 to 4.4, etc. The reason that I'm careful is that my genius grandparent (8 languages, 4 engineering degrees + a masters, 3rd most powerful position in a medium world power, 10 instruments, etc) had to totally quit after he developed a problem and...
I like drinking, so I'm willing to be responsible about it and make sure to try to do red wine as often as possible and appropriate. I think that there are a lot of people like the OP reading this that are in the exact same position. They drink slightly more than what has been blessed as kosher by society and are afraid to come out and admit it because they don't want to be lumped in with actual holy-fuck-I-have-a-problem drunks. I don't get drunk when I drink 2 or 3 glasses of wine, I drink responsibly, and I don't do any drugs what-so-ever. Adulthood is good.
Oh and one last thing. Going to a bar with the workmates for the big game? Tell the bar tender this: "Every time I order a beer bring me a glass of water too, if you do this the whole night I'll tip you 20%." That trick will save your ass from doing anything embarrassing.
As I said at the beginning of my comment, the fact that you asked this question, shows you have awareness of a potential problem. I am not sure If I would be able to stop drinking if I had it as "under control" as you, but I think it is very commendable of you to be looking for answers. feel free to contact me anytime off list for any pointers, or references.
I used to be sort of like you. I would have 2-3 pints a day 3 days a week. Over a few years this was enough to make me gain about 45 pounds. I developed high blood pressure.
I quit for a year and a half out of vanity and to save money. I lost 25 pounds without thinking about it and my blood pressure went back to 122/70. I then lost the rest of the weight through exercise and a restrictive diet.
Unfortunately I am single and live in NYC so my social life suffered a bit. The default thing to do is meet for drinks. If you're just drinking seltzer the girl tends to think you're either an alcoholic, rapist, or worse... a mormon.
I got into going to a popular craft beer bar just so I'd have a place to go and not seem like a teetotaling weirdo. Somewhat strangely, after 18 months off, I now find beer, even fancy beer, mostly disgusting. I'm not sure I could drink 2 pints if I tried. I find it hard to choke down a single pint. The ridiculous $12/beer movement is great for me, I can just get a single "cask" whatever-it-is and leave it sit there for the duration of the date.
The point I'm making is that I had drinking habits maybe a notch lower than yours but was able to reign it in to 1 or 2 beers a week, that I nurse over 2 hours.
All that said, being a drunk is not really compatible with success and 6 beers a night 4 times a week in your late 30s is being a drunk. Any drinking that gives you a hangover is bad behavior. And, definitely that much BEER is going to make you blimp out and worsen your high blood pressure. Either reign it in, and if you can't, you might need to stop completely.
In addition, the fact that you're reaching out anonymously to a hacker forum, and begun your post saying you cut down "substantially" to drinking 6 "high alcohol" beers a night 4 times a week seems to indicate you have a much worse problem than you want to admit. Everything you've written down sounds like textbook definition of functional alcoholism.
My bp is currently 140/85 or around there.
Sorry about being a bit misleading on the amount consumed. I would say that if I'm drinking "regular" beers, I on average would put away 4-6 a night, but with high gravity beers it'd be between 3 and 4.