I remember when Vaping gained popularity, and I advocated it as a way for addicted smokers to slowly reduce their nicotine intake, whilst still having the physical sensation.
Now the issue is that you can constantly increase the strength of the nicotine concentration in your own vape.
You can also decrease the concentration. I smoked for years and eventually switched to vaping for a few months while decreasing the quantity I was using.
The problem with cigarettes is that you have to buy 20 of them at a time and they're all full-length which makes reducing your intake harder as an addict.
It seems like a dangerous gateway for non-smokers to get hooked but I do still think it can help smokers taper off. I haven't smoked (or vaped) in two years after tapering down my intake and quitting.
Sorry, that's what I meant by advocating it as a way for addicted smokers to reduce their nicotine intake. Through decreasing the quantity of Nicotine added into the vape mixture.
I agree, think Vaping for existing smokers is a great idea. Still gives them the psychological feeling of holding and breathing in vapor, but doesn't have the harsh chemicals to go along with it, aside from the Nicotine for which you control the dosage.
As a parent with young teenagers this really worries me. Vaping looks to be a lot more effective way of delivering high doses of nicotine than cigarettes. Do we want a generation of kids addicted to vaping because we thought it harmless?
> Vaping looks to be a lot more effective way of delivering high doses of nicotine than cigarettes
That's not true, from my personal experience cigarettes are MUCH more powerful.
Also I don't understand why everyone so obsessed about nicotine as a main active agent. It looks relatively harmless when comparing with smoke, carbon monoxide, tar in cigarettes and strange substances in e-cigarette vapor (not including nicotine).
Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances known. Cigarettes may indeed be more powerful, but people are obsessed with nicotine because it’s addictive qualities are so well known.
Dependence on nicotine is mostly psychological/social. Nicotine patches could prevent physical one but people still need to perform smoking “ritual” again and again.
What I want to say: we should not fight nicotine, we should fight smoking/vaping.
Who is we? Ever since they came about, professionals we're screaming these were untested, that nicotine is a deadly chemical, and that they had no oversight. I know of no person with relevant credentials who deemed them safe or advocated them as a safe alternative to cigarettes.
People occasionally boil cigarettes to commit suicide but it's rare, people rarely die from arsenic in the water/soil either but it does not negate the fact the substance is indeed poisonous
That's not an answer to the question I just asked. Can you hazard a guess? 2010-2017 deaths from acute nicotine toxicity. How many do you think there were?
In complete agreement with your position, but I'll be damned if the suspense in this dialog isn't maddening. Privy us with enlightenment and citation already, please.
I'm asking because I don't know. It's probably pretty obvious that I think the number is pretty low, maybe even lower than the caffeine number (people have died taking too many no-doz pills; can you nicotine patch yourself to death without making yourself look like a mummy?)
I think, pretty obviously, the subtext here is that the LD50 of nicotine is a red herring, having little (at least epidemiologically) to do with the supposed hazards of vaping. Acetaminophen is also highly toxic --- unlike nicotine, the therapeutic dose is apparently right up on the toxic threshold. Tylenol kills at least 400 people every year, doubtless an order of magnitude (if not two) more than nicotine.
> Vaping looks to be a lot more effective way of delivering high doses of nicotine than cigarettes.
That's one segment of the market. The store I go to mixes everything on site, so I can choose my nicotine level. You can get anywhere from 0mg to 24mg in 3mg increments. When I was quitting smoking, I'd say 18-21 was the closest to a "cigarette" level.
Today I typically vape 6mg, simply because I enjoy the benefits of nicotine and see no immediate reason to quit. I have also helped many stores get setup in my county and most of the pre-made vape juice for the "mod" market that they sell comes in either 0mg or 6mg concentrations; and from my shopping at the wholesaler, this seems to be the vast majority of the market overall and outside of products like JUUL.
There is an effective maximum density for freebase nicotine(most common, and lowest density type of vape juice), but there is a separate type called nicotine salts that are vastly more concentrated, in the ~50-60 mg/mL range. Nicotine salts are widely used in Juuls and other products like the Suorin Air.
I'm going to share a bit of parenting advice from my own father that worked wonders: he threatened my life. Seriously.
"If you ever touch drugs or a drop of alcohol I will take your life with my own two hands." He stared into my eyes and said that with a ferocity I didn't dare challenge (if I recall I was in the 10-11 range).
I didn't touch a thing until college and despite a brief "binge" phase then, I still don't do much of anything save for the rare occasion (in my 30's now).
In short: don't think so helplessly. You can have a serious impact on your kids avoidance of negative stuff. Especially if you explain "why."
Except "reduce the intake of nicotine, with some self discipline".
In the UK, a lot of vape liquid is sold with no nicotine. You state your preferred level of nicotine, and someone behind the desk tells you how much nicotine to purchase to get that level of nicotine in the vape.
You can vape as is, with no nicotine, but what's the point unless you're quitting?
This article is an example of a bit of our society's insanity.
Quitting nicotine is difficult. But people who want to quit work at it and achieve their goals. Throw the shit away, talk to your family for support, don't buy more.
It's insane to imply that we need some sort of product or medical supervision to make a decision and work at something like quitting nicotine.
As it turns out many people don't have the willpower to kick the habit and die from smoking-related illnesses. How does does your suggestion to just quit help? Are you denying the existence of addiction to nicotine? If it were as simple as you describe, don't you think there wouldn't be a problem?
There are a range of choices and lifestyles available to everyone. Habits and addictions, and choices play a role in that.
Many people die from issues related to their habits and addictions. But I do not think it makes sense demand a product or medical intervention as a solution to all of them.
Many harmful habits or addictions are best tackled with planning, decision making, and human effort. I think a good litmus test for whether something can reasonably require medical intervention is the danger to your health from quitting.
It makes sense to intervene for someone going through alcohol withdrawal, because they can be injured from it. It does not make sense for e-cigs, because if someone actually desires to stop, there isn't anything threatening them except their habit.
What would the outcome be, if there was a product to reduce the effort of quitting nicotine? It would simply improve nicotine itself, by removing the biggest reason to avoid it. We'd end up with people habitually taking two drugs, nicotine and the 'quitting drug'.
I’ve been a smoker and I can tell you, reducing the nicotine doesn’t work. And there is no such thing as “self discipline” that can help, unless you’re talking about quitting all smoking.
A tiny amount of nicotine is enough to maintain or reactivate your physical addiction. This is why the phrase “once a smoker always a smoker”, because for people like me it doesn’t matter that we haven’t smoked in 4 years, a single cigarette will bring back that addiction with a vengeance.
A minority of people supposedly have an easier time quitting. Hence the joke: Quitting is easy, I did it dozens of times already.
Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances. AFAIK it ranks higher than drugs like cocaine.
The best strategy is quitting cold turkey, but the withdrawal symptoms can be severe. For people that failed that, there is some medication available that can interfere with the brain receptors to reduce the cravings.
I know several people who quit smoking by switching to vaping and reducing the nicotine concentration. All of them had tried to quit before. At least one of them had tried medication. It does work for some people.
How many of the teenagers that vape today would have used cigarettes fifteen years ago? If you asked my class whether they know someone who regularly smokes because "they have to" everybody would have raised their hands. I think about a third smoked at least occasionally, at parties and such.
I'm not convinced that vaping is a bigger problem or that it's harder to quit vaping than smoking. How is reducing the frequency of vaping, or choosing liquids with lower nicotine content, not possible with vaping, but reducing the number of cigarettes you smoke per day is?
The article specifically calls out the problem of unit measurement when vaping due to varying amounts of nicotine.
The devices themselves have varying liquid capacity and vaporizing volume settings--you can't easily track how many pulls until the device is empty.
Battery limitations also confuse the amount "left" in the device.
Cigarette units are simpler, in part because there aren't that many brands, and even if you roll your own, you probably have a pretty good idea of how much tobacco you're putting in the cigarettes.
But especially with boxes of cigarettes, you can easily count them down and keep track knowing each starts with 20.
I'd also suggest that cigarette use is far more difficult to hide than vaporizer use. Cigarettes smell terrible compared to most vape clouds. The smell and risk of iscovery could be important elements of cigarettes that might make them easier for teenagers to quit.
Finally, vaping comes in just about every flavor imaginable. Much more diverse in taste offering than cigarettes with the same high. It is really a much more refined narcotic delivery than cigarettes and so it aught to be harder for anyone to quit.
I don't vape, but I imagine that the user has a relatively good idea how much they inhale and how much liquid they use per day (or week). It's not like they switch devices, settings, and liquids all the time.
well if you're going into it to stop smoking then yes, but if you're a kid trying out a new toy then probably not, also as it's pretty much a gadget people switch devices, settings and liquids all the time, new is fun.
This is the thing. It costs a lot to get a nice vape and it is also not cheap from an effort / money to maintain compared to cigs which you just throw on the ground. It is almost a hobby-level undertaking.
People do switch juices all the time so it is common to have different bottles of varying quantities sitting around.
If you're just vaping with whatever you can get your hands on and conceal as presumably teens are, I doubt they have a nice repeatable setup with a trigger counter.
But regardless, there are none of these confusing points in branded cigarettes. One cigarette is one cigarette end of story.
Some people do but they’re even less of a concern because they’re vape nerds. They know perfectly well how much they’re consuming. It’s hard to avoid knowing it when you have to buy new cartridges or bottles of fluid when you run out.
"Addicted to caffeine, teenagers have no clear path to quitting".
"Addicted to fortnight, kids have no clear path to quitting".
"Addicted to social media, millennials have no clear path to mental health".
We've spent 100 years creating companies that grow because addiction works. It's gonna take a concerted, societal effort to disconnect addiction and incentives.
Addiction is the result of underlying mental health issues though, not a direct cause of companies selling addictive products... Teens have it rough, at least they imagine.
Edit: Not sure why the downvotes. There is a trend of putting the blame for N things on external factors, e.g "he is in debt because of all those credit card advertisements". For Americans, it might seem like corporations are the cause of many such ills, but there are societies where e.g aggressive advertisements which are common in the US are non-existent, and people still get in debt, eat badly or drink too many sugary drinks.
Sure, but any mentally healthy person can quit without too much trouble if they decide to. The problem is when the person isn't mentally healthy, in such case nicotine might even alleviate the suffering so quitting becomes really hard.
I do believe most smokers today are troubled by something, yes. In the past, it was culturally acceptable but not so much anymore (especially in Northern Europe, I can't really talk for the US). Most people who are bothered by something have a sort obsessive habit, e.g shaking one leg or a finger, touching his hair, smoking, chewing something, eating salty or sugary things. Just an observation.
As a former smoker and current person above their ideal weight who goes to the gym and studies less than they ideally would all of those things are down to prioritises.
Nicotine is fantastic, like caffeine and alcohol, running or weightlifting. Sometimes you have other priorities and you give up something pleasant because it has bad consequences.
Vaping is nicer and safer than smoking, which I would not recommend anyone start, for the wretched smell alone never mind the health effects. If I ever feel like nicotine again I’ll buy a vape again.
There is this thing called physical dependence. Your body physically becomes addicted. Physically. And besides if that’s your explanation everyone has mental issues
Nicotine withdrawal symptoms aren't that extreme though (I've been there). And yes, more people than you imagine have mental issues, not necessarily of such character that they have high life-altering consequences. Humans are strong and small mental issues mostly go unnoticed because they aren't evident unless you're a careful observer.
That is just false. Nicotine has physical withdrawal symptoms that a user suffers regardless of their mental health. What makes it hard to quit is suffering the withdrawal symptoms. I think you’re conflating “mental health” with willpower and the ability to stoically suffer through illness.
I saw an entire country (Norway) quit smoking in a couple of years, family members, friends, and myself. It became culturally unacceptable. Today only people at the bottom of society smoke. Troubled teenagers started using something called "snus" instead because they think it's cool.
An entire country? 11% of adults in Norway still smoke daily, while 12% used snus daily in 2017[0]. In 2015, 22% of adults in Norway smoked, while 14% used smokeless tobacco e.g. snus[1].
Are you classifying ~525,000 people as being from the "bottom of society"? What counts as the "bottom of society"?
I think the anecdotal evidence and opinions you are presenting as fact throughout this thread are earning you downvotes.
First, you write 11% of adults smoke, then go on to write that ~525,000 of the population smokes. 11% of the adult population makes a much smaller number than that. The number of people who smoke daily among 16-24y olds is 3% and 15% for the age group 55-64y [1]. Of those who used to smoke, 80% don't use any nicotine products anymore [2]. The reduction the last years in the numbers of smokers was so large everybody knew at least one close family member in the process of quitting. According to the numbers, most smokers have low education and earn less [3]. As this article points out:
> Samtidig er det vist at relativ fattigdom øker kronisk stress, som igjen fører til mer røyking.
Translation:
At the same time, it is shown that relative poverty increases chronic stress, which in turn leads to more smoking. (I thought this was a pretty well-known fact).
I think it’s a genuinely difficult experience to be a teenager. Caught between worlds, not quite an adult but no longer a child. I wouldn’t want to invalidate that experience.
It's the process of leaving childhood, "the only utopia" as Hayao Miyazaki once said and entering adulthood which usually implies having responsibility/taking care of others.
It's fairly easy to taper your nicotine usage (as well as make your own juice), but I wouldn't expect teenagers to care that much, or use less nicotine even if they were making their own.
I had a few incidents with caffeine/energy drinks, but they were arguably a less harmful and definitely cheaper habit.
It's actually not that hard to OD on caffeine. Doing a couple of strong espressos in a row would do it for many people. Symptoms similar to a panic attack.
Can't speak for parent specifically, but high doses of caffeine can cause:
- Cardiovascular events
- Seizures
- Panic attacks
- Psychotic episodes
These are all exceptional, but it's not that difficult to get to the associated dose range, particularly if you have some preexisting vulnerability that lowers the threshold for one or more of them. Since sensitivities vary in general it's hard to nail down any specific number, but the order of magnitude is around a pot of coffee or a six-pack of one of the more potent energy drinks.
Quitting is hard but it's doable. I smoked off and on for 10 years, the last 3 or so was just bumming cigs when out drunk but finally just gave it up entirely when I was about to turn 30, have to reach a point where you decide you're done.
Serious question what did they do to help teenagers quit cigarettes in the many decades past? Teenagers certainly were smoking well before the electronic cigarette was invented and utterly flopped in the 1960s.
I don't see how a delivery mechanism is any different except perhaps poorly designed regulation and not bringing down the wrath of god upon them immediately for blatantly violating tobacco advertising laws - I remember far too many radio commercials that weren't even trying to hide it - as 'a smoking cessation commercial that spends 75% of the time talking about the satisfaction and telling them they can use it anywhere'.
Delivery mechanism really does matter. Vaping is much more accessible than cigarettes; you can do it indoors with no risk of smelling like anything. You can do it in bathrooms.
Also, if Nicotine is the only reason people are addicted to cigarettes, why doesn't something like nicorette see just as much abuse? Delivery mechanism. Cigarette/Vape users are mentally addicted just as much to the routine and throat hit as they are to the chemical. I'd actually argue more-so.
People have been smoking in bathrooms forever. If large portions of the teenage population were still smoking the schools would explicitly or implicitly give up on forbidding it. Trying to ban a behaviour a third of the population engage in is a losing battle.
> In one of the strangest debates that’s resulted from the spate of shootings and bombings across Paris last November, French school administrators are weighing the dangers of teen smoking against the threat of potential terrorist attacks.
> The survey also found that many students believe they are vaping “just flavoring.” In fact, just about all brands include nicotine, and Juul has particularly high levels of it.
Wow. What?
Minor point, but nearly every flavor of eliquid I've ever seen comes in a 0mg variant. Granted, none of the gas station pod systems have that.
More importantly: there is no way in hell you are vaping a Juul and just think its flavored vapor. I have not once seen someone take a hit on a Juul for the first time and not have a small coughing fit. Unless you inherited an impossibly massive genetic nicotine tolerance, the first few times you hit a Juul you're basically going to fly. I've seen one person puke. Having a small brown-out for a second would not be unheard of. Its very strong. Its made for adult smokers who have been smoking for years and want to quit. Its not even that tasty compared to the other less strong brands; nicotine is straight up disgusting, and only gets more disgusting as the concentration grows.
I don't believe for a second that kids were genuinely self-reporting that they had no idea, unless they were actually vaping something more like 3mg/ml juice from a normal vape. That, I could see. But a 50mg/ml Juul, absolutely not. That's like saying you drank a shot of vodka and had no idea it wasn't water.
I agree with you, but as a note, you'll cough just as hard if you hit a 0mg nicotine vape for the first time. It's not the nicotine that makes you cough.
These kind of articles always seem odd to me. I've used an e-cig to stop smoking. Worked myself down from 21mg juice to 3mg, step by step. Now I really only use it when I'm out drinking, to prevent myself from wanting a cigarette (old habits do die hard, after all)
The e-cig helped, but the real motivator is that I wanted to run and play soccer more effectively. Vaping was just a tool that kept me away from cigarettes.
And one very nice side effect of vapes that I noticed to be crucial for weaning off more easily:
Vaped nicotine feels way less addicting. I think its got something to do with other "active agents" and additives missing compared to cigarettes.
Edit: For example, studies have shown cigarette smoke to inhibit MAO in the brain due to some agent besides nicotine, which vaping very probably doesnt.
This, but for the same reason I found vaping not very useful in stopping my cigarette habit (I missed more than just the nicotine). I’ve heard some of the salts in newer vapes have solved that problem, but who knows what those do.
I smoked for ten years and recently switched to vaping. I don't believe it is necessarily healthier or less addictive, but I do think it might be easier on the lungs and vocal cords (I sing), even though not vaping or smoking at all is clearly the best option.
So, I have tried patches before, and I got relentlessly addicted to them. I wore them for something like two years. I have ADHD and take stimulant medication for it, and stimulants are pretty famous for causing tobacco users to smoke a lot more.
After I got used to the e-cigarettes/vaping, I don't want to go back. I decline offers from friends for real cigarettes when out drinking at bars/etc., and I have had a pack of cigarettes in my house for about 6 weeks now without smoking a single one. The taste and smell just isn't good anymore now that I'm off the "analogs".
It's hard to know how much nicotine I'm ingesting, though. Smoking real cigarettes now gives me a strong nicotine buzz that I don't get from vaping, like that infamous light-headed feeling beginner smokers get. I suspect this is due to vaping delivery being less efficient and more gradually throughout the day, but you would think it would be easier to compare, say, a JUUL to a standard cigarette.
The other problem I've had with my JUUL is leaking. The last few pods I have vaped, have all leaked considerable amounts of liquid - sometimes on my lips, sometimes on the sides of the pod and into the chamber. I'm not sure if this is an issue with my device or QC. I clean the device regularly with a Q-Tip. Obviously, leaked liquid is not ingested or vaped, so that's lost nicotine and can't be counted. The same applies to any liquid left in a JUUL pod when it is thrown away. I've started throwing away pods before they are completely empty, because its not working as well. Air bubbles are also a problem and lead to poor performance.
Just my experience, I'm sure I'll get harassed for this since I'm discussing vape usage, but addictions are addictions, and not everyone wants to quit.
I remember an interesting summary posted on HN back in 2013 about nicotine and tobacco. This was before vaping became popular, but the case he made was that nicotine is actually not very addictive on it own, but seems to reinforce addiction in the presence of other compounds found in tobacco (e.g., MAOIs). Lots of primary sources given.
Most of what I've seen calls nicotine one of the most addictive drugs, but even if it's not that addictive it could still be causing these problems. Addictiveness describes how likely you are to develop a dependency after using some amount of times, and presumably these people are vaping many times before addicted.
Positive comments about nicotine in the LessWrong community were a major reason why I started vaping. I found the addiction to be less serious than commonly claimed, but I also found the beneficial effects to be small. I couldn't say with confidence that it's better than caffeine, and caffeine is more socially acceptable. I don't suppose I'd be shadowbanned for telling people my experience of caffeine.
In my own experience, nicotine was not very addictive. As a non-smoker, I started vaping 36mg/ml nicotine in unflavored propylene glycol. I used a high concentration to minimize exposure to any unknown non-nicotine risks. I vaped heavily for about 2 years before getting bored of it. I tapered the dose to zero over two weeks and experienced only mild withdrawal symptoms. It's been about four years since I quit and I've never felt the effects were sufficiently interesting or enjoyable to start again.
As someone who has never smoked, but juuls occasionally, I would like to see some studies on the health effects on nicotine alone. Much of the anti smoking literature focuses on the health effects of inhaling burning plant matter along with nicotine. How different is a straight nicotine addiction from that of a coffee addiction? A heavy coffee drinker is chemically dependent on the caffeine, but there isn't any cultural or even health pressure to quit coffee (unless some heart/BP issues). You even see articles that say that coffee has health benefits.
I go through great lengths to insure that I don't become dependent on either, though I enjoy both. Caffeine really does reduce fatigue, and nicotine 'dials you in' when you're focusing. Wish I knew what the chemicals themselves were doing to me without the complications from the delivery systems.
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[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 93.6 ms ] threadNow the issue is that you can constantly increase the strength of the nicotine concentration in your own vape.
The problem with cigarettes is that you have to buy 20 of them at a time and they're all full-length which makes reducing your intake harder as an addict.
It seems like a dangerous gateway for non-smokers to get hooked but I do still think it can help smokers taper off. I haven't smoked (or vaped) in two years after tapering down my intake and quitting.
I agree, think Vaping for existing smokers is a great idea. Still gives them the psychological feeling of holding and breathing in vapor, but doesn't have the harsh chemicals to go along with it, aside from the Nicotine for which you control the dosage.
That's not true, from my personal experience cigarettes are MUCH more powerful.
Also I don't understand why everyone so obsessed about nicotine as a main active agent. It looks relatively harmless when comparing with smoke, carbon monoxide, tar in cigarettes and strange substances in e-cigarette vapor (not including nicotine).
Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances known. Cigarettes may indeed be more powerful, but people are obsessed with nicotine because it’s addictive qualities are so well known.
What I want to say: we should not fight nicotine, we should fight smoking/vaping.
[1] https://icd.codes/icd10cm/T652
[0] http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-d... [1]https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/drowning
[0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3880486/
That's one segment of the market. The store I go to mixes everything on site, so I can choose my nicotine level. You can get anywhere from 0mg to 24mg in 3mg increments. When I was quitting smoking, I'd say 18-21 was the closest to a "cigarette" level.
Today I typically vape 6mg, simply because I enjoy the benefits of nicotine and see no immediate reason to quit. I have also helped many stores get setup in my county and most of the pre-made vape juice for the "mod" market that they sell comes in either 0mg or 6mg concentrations; and from my shopping at the wholesaler, this seems to be the vast majority of the market overall and outside of products like JUUL.
"If you ever touch drugs or a drop of alcohol I will take your life with my own two hands." He stared into my eyes and said that with a ferocity I didn't dare challenge (if I recall I was in the 10-11 range).
I didn't touch a thing until college and despite a brief "binge" phase then, I still don't do much of anything save for the rare occasion (in my 30's now).
In short: don't think so helplessly. You can have a serious impact on your kids avoidance of negative stuff. Especially if you explain "why."
This is mental abuse.
In the UK, a lot of vape liquid is sold with no nicotine. You state your preferred level of nicotine, and someone behind the desk tells you how much nicotine to purchase to get that level of nicotine in the vape.
You can vape as is, with no nicotine, but what's the point unless you're quitting?
This article is an example of a bit of our society's insanity.
Quitting nicotine is difficult. But people who want to quit work at it and achieve their goals. Throw the shit away, talk to your family for support, don't buy more.
It's insane to imply that we need some sort of product or medical supervision to make a decision and work at something like quitting nicotine.
Many people die from issues related to their habits and addictions. But I do not think it makes sense demand a product or medical intervention as a solution to all of them.
Many harmful habits or addictions are best tackled with planning, decision making, and human effort. I think a good litmus test for whether something can reasonably require medical intervention is the danger to your health from quitting.
It makes sense to intervene for someone going through alcohol withdrawal, because they can be injured from it. It does not make sense for e-cigs, because if someone actually desires to stop, there isn't anything threatening them except their habit.
What would the outcome be, if there was a product to reduce the effort of quitting nicotine? It would simply improve nicotine itself, by removing the biggest reason to avoid it. We'd end up with people habitually taking two drugs, nicotine and the 'quitting drug'.
A tiny amount of nicotine is enough to maintain or reactivate your physical addiction. This is why the phrase “once a smoker always a smoker”, because for people like me it doesn’t matter that we haven’t smoked in 4 years, a single cigarette will bring back that addiction with a vengeance.
A minority of people supposedly have an easier time quitting. Hence the joke: Quitting is easy, I did it dozens of times already.
Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances. AFAIK it ranks higher than drugs like cocaine.
The best strategy is quitting cold turkey, but the withdrawal symptoms can be severe. For people that failed that, there is some medication available that can interfere with the brain receptors to reduce the cravings.
I'm not convinced that vaping is a bigger problem or that it's harder to quit vaping than smoking. How is reducing the frequency of vaping, or choosing liquids with lower nicotine content, not possible with vaping, but reducing the number of cigarettes you smoke per day is?
The devices themselves have varying liquid capacity and vaporizing volume settings--you can't easily track how many pulls until the device is empty.
Battery limitations also confuse the amount "left" in the device.
Cigarette units are simpler, in part because there aren't that many brands, and even if you roll your own, you probably have a pretty good idea of how much tobacco you're putting in the cigarettes.
But especially with boxes of cigarettes, you can easily count them down and keep track knowing each starts with 20.
I'd also suggest that cigarette use is far more difficult to hide than vaporizer use. Cigarettes smell terrible compared to most vape clouds. The smell and risk of iscovery could be important elements of cigarettes that might make them easier for teenagers to quit.
Finally, vaping comes in just about every flavor imaginable. Much more diverse in taste offering than cigarettes with the same high. It is really a much more refined narcotic delivery than cigarettes and so it aught to be harder for anyone to quit.
People do switch juices all the time so it is common to have different bottles of varying quantities sitting around.
If you're just vaping with whatever you can get your hands on and conceal as presumably teens are, I doubt they have a nice repeatable setup with a trigger counter.
But regardless, there are none of these confusing points in branded cigarettes. One cigarette is one cigarette end of story.
Also: most vapes have a trigger counter.
"Addicted to fortnight, kids have no clear path to quitting".
"Addicted to social media, millennials have no clear path to mental health".
We've spent 100 years creating companies that grow because addiction works. It's gonna take a concerted, societal effort to disconnect addiction and incentives.
Edit: Not sure why the downvotes. There is a trend of putting the blame for N things on external factors, e.g "he is in debt because of all those credit card advertisements". For Americans, it might seem like corporations are the cause of many such ills, but there are societies where e.g aggressive advertisements which are common in the US are non-existent, and people still get in debt, eat badly or drink too many sugary drinks.
Nicotine is fantastic, like caffeine and alcohol, running or weightlifting. Sometimes you have other priorities and you give up something pleasant because it has bad consequences.
Vaping is nicer and safer than smoking, which I would not recommend anyone start, for the wretched smell alone never mind the health effects. If I ever feel like nicotine again I’ll buy a vape again.
Are you classifying ~525,000 people as being from the "bottom of society"? What counts as the "bottom of society"?
I think the anecdotal evidence and opinions you are presenting as fact throughout this thread are earning you downvotes.
[0]: https://www.ssb.no/en/royk [1]: https://tobaccoatlas.org/country/norway/
> Samtidig er det vist at relativ fattigdom øker kronisk stress, som igjen fører til mer røyking.
Translation: At the same time, it is shown that relative poverty increases chronic stress, which in turn leads to more smoking. (I thought this was a pretty well-known fact).
[1] https://www.ssb.no/statbank/table/05307/chartViewLine/
[2] https://www.ssb.no/helse/artikler-og-publikasjoner/fire-av-f...
[3] https://www.fhi.no/ml/royking/hvorfor-har-roykevanene-endret...
It's interesting to see those additional statistics.
Note: the effects appear permanent, and you don't have to continue taking the medication after the first round.
Edit: I'm curious why this was downvoted, I'm simply offering information that I know has helped others in this very situation.
No idea about the down votes; yours is a very reasonable suggestion.
I had a few incidents with caffeine/energy drinks, but they were arguably a less harmful and definitely cheaper habit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Overdose
Then you have stuff like this... https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/buzzaire.shtml
Scroll to the bottom of the page or click 'Buy Now.'
- Cardiovascular events
- Seizures
- Panic attacks
- Psychotic episodes
These are all exceptional, but it's not that difficult to get to the associated dose range, particularly if you have some preexisting vulnerability that lowers the threshold for one or more of them. Since sensitivities vary in general it's hard to nail down any specific number, but the order of magnitude is around a pot of coffee or a six-pack of one of the more potent energy drinks.
I don't see how a delivery mechanism is any different except perhaps poorly designed regulation and not bringing down the wrath of god upon them immediately for blatantly violating tobacco advertising laws - I remember far too many radio commercials that weren't even trying to hide it - as 'a smoking cessation commercial that spends 75% of the time talking about the satisfaction and telling them they can use it anywhere'.
Also, if Nicotine is the only reason people are addicted to cigarettes, why doesn't something like nicorette see just as much abuse? Delivery mechanism. Cigarette/Vape users are mentally addicted just as much to the routine and throat hit as they are to the chemical. I'd actually argue more-so.
Look at France https://thinkprogress.org/french-high-school-students-encour...
> In one of the strangest debates that’s resulted from the spate of shootings and bombings across Paris last November, French school administrators are weighing the dangers of teen smoking against the threat of potential terrorist attacks.
Wow. What?
Minor point, but nearly every flavor of eliquid I've ever seen comes in a 0mg variant. Granted, none of the gas station pod systems have that.
More importantly: there is no way in hell you are vaping a Juul and just think its flavored vapor. I have not once seen someone take a hit on a Juul for the first time and not have a small coughing fit. Unless you inherited an impossibly massive genetic nicotine tolerance, the first few times you hit a Juul you're basically going to fly. I've seen one person puke. Having a small brown-out for a second would not be unheard of. Its very strong. Its made for adult smokers who have been smoking for years and want to quit. Its not even that tasty compared to the other less strong brands; nicotine is straight up disgusting, and only gets more disgusting as the concentration grows.
I don't believe for a second that kids were genuinely self-reporting that they had no idea, unless they were actually vaping something more like 3mg/ml juice from a normal vape. That, I could see. But a 50mg/ml Juul, absolutely not. That's like saying you drank a shot of vodka and had no idea it wasn't water.
I agree on the coughing, but from a straight-up nicotine delivery standpoint, cigarettes seem more pronounced for me.
The e-cig helped, but the real motivator is that I wanted to run and play soccer more effectively. Vaping was just a tool that kept me away from cigarettes.
Vaped nicotine feels way less addicting. I think its got something to do with other "active agents" and additives missing compared to cigarettes.
Edit: For example, studies have shown cigarette smoke to inhibit MAO in the brain due to some agent besides nicotine, which vaping very probably doesnt.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC19495/
So, I have tried patches before, and I got relentlessly addicted to them. I wore them for something like two years. I have ADHD and take stimulant medication for it, and stimulants are pretty famous for causing tobacco users to smoke a lot more.
After I got used to the e-cigarettes/vaping, I don't want to go back. I decline offers from friends for real cigarettes when out drinking at bars/etc., and I have had a pack of cigarettes in my house for about 6 weeks now without smoking a single one. The taste and smell just isn't good anymore now that I'm off the "analogs".
It's hard to know how much nicotine I'm ingesting, though. Smoking real cigarettes now gives me a strong nicotine buzz that I don't get from vaping, like that infamous light-headed feeling beginner smokers get. I suspect this is due to vaping delivery being less efficient and more gradually throughout the day, but you would think it would be easier to compare, say, a JUUL to a standard cigarette.
The other problem I've had with my JUUL is leaking. The last few pods I have vaped, have all leaked considerable amounts of liquid - sometimes on my lips, sometimes on the sides of the pod and into the chamber. I'm not sure if this is an issue with my device or QC. I clean the device regularly with a Q-Tip. Obviously, leaked liquid is not ingested or vaped, so that's lost nicotine and can't be counted. The same applies to any liquid left in a JUUL pod when it is thrown away. I've started throwing away pods before they are completely empty, because its not working as well. Air bubbles are also a problem and lead to poor performance.
Just my experience, I'm sure I'll get harassed for this since I'm discussing vape usage, but addictions are addictions, and not everyone wants to quit.
Yep, of course it is, otherwise nicotine patches wouldn't work. It's also absorbed through mucous membranes in the mouth (see dip, chew, snus, etc).
So what else is in vaping liquid?
"Nicotine as a useful stimulant" (gwern.net)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6457772
I go through great lengths to insure that I don't become dependent on either, though I enjoy both. Caffeine really does reduce fatigue, and nicotine 'dials you in' when you're focusing. Wish I knew what the chemicals themselves were doing to me without the complications from the delivery systems.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
If you look at Figure 1, the e-cig users and never smokers are pretty similar.