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Ask HN: Why can’t I block all incoming calls that aren’t in my contact list?

319 points by tones411 ↗ HN
It’s pointless to block every single spam number that can call in. If we can’t end spam calls, why don’t phones let you at least block all except numbers in your contact list?

331 comments

[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 314 ms ] thread
slater
Or even maybe just a wildcard option, e.g. "block all calls from 555-*" would be nice
kazinator
On Android, the Call Blocker app from embware does "starts with" and "ends with" matching.

Blocker does a good job on dropping unwanted calls in such a way that they rarely have an opportunity to go to voicemail.

koolba
The vast majority of junk calls I receive on my cell have my local area code so that wouldn’t work.
joe_the_user
Just get a number with an area code outside of your current location. I wound-up in this situation and it's a good junk filter. To their credit, T-Mobile also does decent spam filtering.
joshka
Same boat. Milking this until it's not :|
derekp7
For me, most of them have the same area code AND prefix as my cell phone (so obviously caller ID spoofed). I wish I could block those, without blocking the couple other phones in my calling plan that share the same prefix.
vforgione
On iOS there’s an app called Exchange Blocker that does exactly this.
huxflux
That's exactly why I left Apple after six years of usage, I don't want to have to use an app for every single little task.
malshe
This whole comment thread is listing number of Android apps doing it...maybe you missed that
anigbrowl
Because nobody wants to download a third party phone call app?
kazinator
The carriers should pick up the ball a little bit and deal with the spam call problem at the network level, rather than leaving it to apps.

How can the tech be broken that call display can be spoofed; like someone obviously from outside of your area spoofs a number in your area. I can't believe that can't be intercepted.

They just don't care beyond collecting a monthly bill from you.

jimktrains2
Caller ID originates from the sender and has no authentication. (Bell 303 modem modulation between the 1st and 2nd rings iirc.) I don't believe there is any other data with the call to know the calling number either. (I don't work in Telecom, so take it with a grain of salt as that's just the research I've done as an outsider.)
max76
T-Mobile is the front runner carrier for dealing with spam and fraud phone calls in the US. I'll link some official marketing about one of their features, but they are doing a lot in this space. I suspect they find that these features increase brand loyalty per dollar more than the coverage arms race, which they can never win against their deep pocketed opponents.

https://www.t-mobile.com/resources/call-protection

bscphil
I've been on Google Fi for a few years, and I don't believe I have received a single spam call, ever. I don't know if that's because Google is just good at filtering, because they operate over T-Mobile's networks, or just a coincidence.
anigbrowl
I shudder to think what the others are like, because I use TM and get a ton of spam calls despite a fairly lowonline profile.
mathewspolin
iOS "do not disturb" does this.
cimmanom
By only if you’re also willing to forgo every single other possible notification.
WestCoastJustin
I just put my iphone on "do not disturb" full-time and use my favourites list to only allow calls though (from a selected list). People who double call are also allowed through. Then you are not constantly distracted by notifications, emails, texts, spam calls [1]. My thinking is, my phone should serve me, not the other way around, so I only check when I'm not focused on something else. Personally, I find useless notifications way worse than calls.

[1] https://www.iphonelife.com/blog/32671/tip-day-how-let-favori...

kylec
I want to do this, but only for calls. All other notifications should happen normally. It annoys me that iOS doesn't support that though, it's all or nothing.
IgorPartola
Custom ringtone that is silent and individual ring tones for the select few contacts?
tintor
That is genius!
EGreg
Well you know us HN crowd...
Meph504
Wonder if you could do a no vibration pattern also, I haven't turn my ring tone on in like 10 years.
DonHopkins
Yea, Crazy Frog "The Annoying Thing" permanently turned me off to ring tones.
afiori
I really like my Nokia 6 except I hate that you cannot disable just vibrations easily. and also that there is a high minimum volume for all sounds, sometimes at night I use earphones as speakers.
CamperBob2
I've done this since the original iPhone first started to support custom ringtones. I used a quiet passage from a recording of Beethoven's 7th.

Why Apple doesn't include a silent ringtone -- a feature found on pretty much every 'feature phone' I've ever seen or used -- is just one of life's dumb mysteries.

cco
Surprised you didn't use 4'33".
paul7986
Exactly only for calls... text is my main form of communication. I want only calls from those I let ring my phone do so and all others go to voicemail.

I hope Apple updates DND with more options like DND for calls only.

m463
This still lets people on that list wake you up after hours unless you take manual action.

I believe apple has a new call fitering API, but of course you don't have a way of really knowing what apps do with their permissions.

Apple should give you the ability to firewall apps from any net access.

WestCoastJustin
Yeah, in my case that is what I want. There is only a handful of family that can get through. But, if they are calling at 3am, it is very likely an emergency. If this becomes a problem, I'd just ask them not to call at 3am. I haven't had any issues though.
joshka
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/callkit/cxcalldire...

Single number at a time though. Useless for spammers that use random spoofed numbers. Not sure what sort of performance problems you'd hit by adding 10M numbers per area code. It's probably a hashset underneath, so maybe none...?

paulie_a
I was so annoyed by spam calls that I called my carrier and asked if I could block Texas and Florida.

Apparently you cannot.

brerlapn
The Hiya app lets you block calls that start with a particular string. It looks like the app allows for blocking just an area code. The only downside is that numbers being blocked by Hiya will sometimes start to ring for like a quarter of a second before the blocking takes effect - still better than having them ring through. I have the area code and exchange for both of the numbers that ring to my phone automatically blocked in Hiya (so, first six numbers) and it makes a big difference. My LG G7 has a call blocking feature, as well, but trying to block only the initial string of numbers for the area code and exchange didn't work. I'd recommend Hiya.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.webascende...

paulie_a
The thing that pisses me off is that the numbers are either faked or stolen. The people actually making the call on those numbers need to be arrested and charged with a felony. I don't care if they are some low level telemarketing drone. They are already scammers and are committing hundreds of felonies a day. Put them in prison.
avh02
Personal habit that's worked for me for years: turn off all data when I go to bed - only calls and sms can wake me up (of course this works if you don't use sms as a regular communication medium)

I end up syncing in the morning when I turn Wi-Fi back on

lowlevel
I've wanted a whitelist only setting for a very long time... and I have also resorted to using the iPhones DND feature but instead of favorites I just use contacts.

Havn't heard from the fake CRA, chinese immigration or duct cleaners for ages... I do still get text messages so I'm not sure what people are talking about by 'all or nothing' ...

As far as I can tell, the only downside is anyone in my contact list can wake me up at 4am...

BillinghamJ
Not quite the same thing, but I have my mobile network set up to forward every call to a Twilio number which just states that my number doesn't accept calls. It sends me an SMS so I know someone tried to. It's great. People who do need to call me then will just use FaceTime Audio or WhatsApp calls.
savrajsingh
Interesting. Do you state FaceTime/WhatsApp in the twilio message?
cblades
That seems really obnoxious for anyone that has your number. Do you just not give your number out?
greedo
Because spam calls don't occur because you gave your number out, but because the spammers either farm your number from a "partner" or iterate through numbers.
Terretta
That’s one class. Another class is if the number was in a credit application or marketing form, then got resold or data-breached.

I only put burner numbers on forms. They start to get called about 90 - 180 days later. Not all, but enough you don’t want to give your cell out.

BillinghamJ
I avoid giving it out wherever possible. Some forms require phone numbers, in which case I generally try to enter an obviously-incorrect number.
russelldavis
This approach comes pretty close to solving the problem, but a couple issues are dealbreakers for me:

1) It mutes all notifications, not just non-whitelisted calls. As much as I hate notification overload, I do want a select few to come through.

2) I want a discoverable way for non-whitelisted callers to be able to break through (not everyone will know to call multiple times to break through).

I'm working on an app that addresses those -- email me if you're interested (see my profile).

kd5bjo
re #2: They can leave a voicemail; I'll listen to it and call back if necessary.
tones411
Going back and listening to voicemails of spam is more time consuming than just answering it at the time it comes in.
kd5bjo
At the moment, the percentage of spam calls that bother to leave a message is low enough that it seems to work out. I also don't have to worry about the impoliteness of hanging up when it's a live human on the other end, and can time-shift the annoyance to when I'm not in the middle of something.
paulie_a
I wish I could ban the hundreds of 2-4 second voicemails I get a week. actually ban the number too.
toss1
Hmmm, as interrupting to answer at the time has the additional overhead of task/context switching, I'd say it's more.

If you just switch to/from the voicemail context once for 10 messages, the cost is only 10% of the cost for real-time answering.

linsomniac
Usually works well, but when you get caught in a cycle of always missing each other it sucks. Usually this is a business or similar where they call and are making a bunch of calls, so by the time I call back they are on the line with someone else.
pbhjpbhj
We have POTS at home and work with a regular digital answerphone set to "speaker" ("always answer").

So, all calls get answered by the answerphone, most spam callers hangup as soon as the message starts.

Genuine callers start to give a message and you can pick up if you want to handle the call immediately. If someone needs to "break through" then they can say "hi, it's X, can you pick up please".

Works fantastically.

I would love my mobile to work the same way.

freehunter
I've been getting a lot of spam calls where they call, immediately hang up, and then call back from the same number. I assume it's to get around do not disturb.
INTPenis
I love the DnD feature of Android but I've noticed that if someone persists they still get through. A feature I assume.
linsomniac
This is a setting. Go to settings and search for "repeat" and disable "Allow repeat callers".
pxeboot
Just a guess, but I would expect carriers to be strongly against any feature that made it easy to block most calls.
jonwachob91
Carriers no longer get paid per call, so you'd think they'd be incentivized to lower the load on their network by reducing the number of spam calls.
pxeboot
At least in the US, the carrier initiating the call still pays the receiving carrier. This is less then 1¢/minute in most cases, but still represents real money when multipled by millions of calls a day.

Users just pay for 'Unlimited Calling' now, but all the legacy payment structures still exist on the back end.

vortico
But with less usage, their service is valued less by the customer, which would cause more unsubscribes/downgrades in service.
nikanj
The more people block most calls, the less useful the ability to make calls is. And making calls is rather important for telcos.
altmind
Just checked, I got this feature on stock samsung s8(phone-settings-block numbers-block unknown callers)? Are you talking about iphone(as if it is a default phone vendor) ?
jonwachob91
There is a difference between unknown callers and calls from numbers not in your contact list.
squirrelicus
Can you explain?
lashkari
An "unknown caller" is typically one that has no caller ID information provided (e.g., unlisted number). However, getting a random telemarketing call from a VoIP-provided (or spoofed) local number would still come through since the caller ID information is provided, even though the number is not in your contacts list.
bcyn
Unknown = caller who has chosen to hide their number, or their number is just unavailable for any other reason.
mamon
Fortunately, my carrier allows blocking such calls on NETWORK level, so they don't ever reach my phone.
tones411
Thanks. I am using iphone but didn’t realize Samsung had that option. I couldn’t find that option on my Essential Android phone either so it must be a vendor thing.
undoware
Oh, easy. Collection agencies.

Collection agencies are a vital part of the capitalist financial apparatus. Banks rely on them to enforce loan term agreements, and in turn defend them when in negotiation with e.g. Apple, when e.g. negotiating agreements regarding e.g. Apple Pay. I suspect (but cannot prove) an elaborate leaning on mobile companies to keep nonconsensual cold calls possible.

Look for this state-of-affairs to change abruptly when being in arrears can directly affect the state of your device.

I expect, by 2025 at the latest, that mobile service and handset providers will begin kneecapping devices whose owners have displeased Equifax. When this occurs, it will no longer be necessary to allow nonconsensual calls, and there will be much touting of the new-and-improved DND.

Probably court summons and legal stuff works similarly, so my second prediction is that, around the same time, it will be possible to serve you notice of a subpoena by unblockable alert.

max76
> I expect, by 2025 at the latest, that mobile service and handset providers will begin kneecapping devices whose owners have displeased Equifax.

What type of action could someone put on a device to deal with an owner that has bad credit?

undoware
Downvoters, why do you disagree? I'm sincere and I believe myself to be correct.
GalacticDomin8r
They are vital in the same way mosquitoes are vital to the ecosystem. You try to assume they must serve some higher purpose greater than blood-sucking(eg food for fish), but nope that's it.
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
undoware
I fail to understand how I assume they serve a greater purpose -- they simply provide consequences for debtors, something increasingly difficult. I hate them, but it fascinates me that some folks can't even bear to discuss how the meat grinder actually works.

Because grind it does.

GalacticDomin8r
You stated they are vital. This is an assumption. They are not vital. The real consequences are already part of the system and the collection agencies serve no purpose but to harass and annoy.
Figs
You can? I thought that was pretty standard on Android phones? On my phone, at least, there are do-not-disturb options for "priority only" (which can be set to either specific contacts or the whole contact list), "alarms only", and "total silence" (careful with that one).
sagarm
I use priority only to only allow started contacts through at night. During the day, I want all contacts to come through but not unknown numbers.
ryan-allen
Yep I'm pretty sure this is standard on Android phones. Not sure if it can be done on iPhones though!
russjr08
On iOS, you can do block everyone but favorites, or just all, with an option of allowing repeat callers through (they call X amount of times in a 5 minute duration).

Unfortunately this also disables all other app notifications which is less than desirable.

sliken
It's on my pixel 3 xl, if you turn on "do not disturb" you can allow calls from anyone, contacts, starred contacts, or nobody.
tones411
Does it disable other notifications on android though?
koheripbal
My challenge on Android is that Hangouts calls have zero ability to filter.
pmoriarty
On Android, you can do exactly this with an app called "Should I Answer?"

That app has a lot more features too, like blocking calls which are rated negatively in the community-curated database. Of course, you can rate numbers yourself as well, and block/whitelist those.

It can also block hidden numbers or foreign numbers, and a whole bunch of other stuff as well.

It's a pretty cool app. Check it out.

zamalek
It's mostly built in for Pixel: it warns about spam calls under the caller ID and allows you to report spam. In addition, there's the new call screening functionality [1] (which also now works on the Pixel 2).

[1]: https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/google-call-screening-h...

MarkSummer
> It's mostly built in for Pixel

I this this "Pixel" reply is misplaced. I've been using "Should I Answer" for about a year on my Galaxy S6, and it does everything the OP was requesting and then some. I just donated to them yesterday for the first time in fact.

Even if you don't choose to use your contacts as a white list (which I don't because I often have client/prospect calls coming in that aren't in my contacts yet), it still catches about 95% of calls thanks to thepower of the masses fighting back.

If you don't have it, definitely worth a download

SAI_Peregrinus
Agreed. And it does it by periodically downloading a ratings database and storing it on your phone, so the checking doesn't leak any personal info. That takes some space, but not very much.
aiyodev
This is still possible with Google Voice but through the legacy menu. I hope they aren't planning to drop these features any time soon.

You can screen calls or automatically send them to voicemail. You can create rules for groups of contacts that override the default. You can setup different voicemail messages for different groups.

I have it setup to send everyone but friends and family to voicemail. The transcript of this message is emailed to me. If I get multiple spam voicemails from the same number, I add the number to a contact called "Block" which sends them to a custom voicemail message I recorded telling them the number has been disconnected.

My number is posted on websites, I use it when signing up for shady things, but I hardly ever get spam. I remember having to add a lot of numbers the first month and then suddenly the torrent of spam calls abruptly stopped. I assume they blacklisted my number on their lists. I've been pretty much spam free for years.

TYPE_FASTER
Get a Google Voice number. Give your cell number to people, the Google Voice number everywhere else. You can configure Google Voice to send all calls to voicemail if you want. And I think you can still configure it to send you a transcription via text. Spam calls won't leave a message.
sagarm
Google voice can be configured to screen calls from anyone not in your contacts. It works pretty well in my experience.
quarkral
Doesn't work. Spammers still manage to blind call my actual cell phone number even though I've given it to absolutely not a single person, dead or alive.
GalacticDomin8r
Your provider/mvno should allow you change that one easily. I just did with mine that some spammers had. Works great except new one is on the school districts notification list with no easy way to opt-out. But that one is easy to block.
jzl
Exactly. Robocallers just call every single phone number. There aren't that many.
tones411
Yep. Even if I switch numbers they real number is still out in the wild. And even if it’s not in the wild my guess is they are just calling every combination of numbers.
Cactus2018
Tangentially; T-Mobile tags suspect numbers with "Scam Likely" caller ID. Opt-in to block these calls by dialing #662# - https://www.t-mobile.com/resources/call-protection

edit; T-Mobile accepts forwarded text message SPAM at 7726 - https://www.t-mobile.com/responsibility/privacy/fraud-spam/s...

fosco
Thank you trying this out now.

Awesome.

YeahSureWhyNot
I do report numbers all the time but I didn't know I can prevent them from calling me. Just did that 662 dial. thank you
wj
Half of my spam calls these days are from numbers that are supposedly in the same area code as my phone (likely spoofed as I've called a couple back before and the person didn't know what I was talking about when I said they called me) but since I no longer live in that area code I am able to use that as an identifier.
magduf
It's the same for me. Any time I see a call from my phone's area code, I know it's 99% likely to be spam (the other 1% is a recruiter, who I also don't want to talk to because they're trying to get me to take a job back in that same area code).

Having a phone with a far-away area code is actually really useful just for this reason, I've found.

glitcher
Thank you, just activated this. And it is #632# to opt back out again (for my own future reference, I can probably find this thread faster than T-Mobile's documentation :)
thusjustin
I use this, and it lets many scam calls through / unmarked.
piyush_soni
There are many apps that do the same, at least on Android I've personally tried, but i guess should be the case on iPhone too.
sys_64738
I use callcentric for voip and it allows all non-whitelist numbers to fall through to ‘press random digit to connect’. That gets rid of spam calls for me.
stonogo
They used to, before the Android/iOS takeover of the industry.

Competition was nice.

axaxs
I was going to say... I'm 90 percent sure my RAZR had that ability even...
kregasaurusrex
Still sad that BB10 will have support ending at year's end... But does a market exist for users of a non-Android/IOS phone in 2019 and beyond?
kkarakk
KaiOS is the new up and comer
pdx6
It is pretty annoying -- you'd think there would be an out of the box solution for this. We can block IPs, why not phone numbers?

With the Galaxy 9, there are some Name ID features built in if you use T-Mobile. For iOS on T-Mobile, I do:

1. Pay for T-Mobile Plus to get Name ID.

2. Install the Name ID app and enable all the blocking features.

3. Manage Blocks, Go to VM, and whitelist contacts

Another thread mentions Exchange Blocker, this also helps with exchange alias scams and is a light weight app that takes a minute to install.

lsllc
This. It's a complete nightmare, I get 5-10 junk calls a day, all from "local" numbers. I gave up blocking them as they are seemingly random. Some of the calls are in Chinese!

At this point I just don't answer a call that's not in my contacts, but I should be able to enable this as the default. If it's someone that really wants to talk to me, then they'll leave voicemail.

I shouldn't have to use Do-Not-Disturb; that's for something else (don't ring my phone at all when I am sleeping), also I don't want to lose my other notifications.

The telcos charge for a "blocking" service so they have no incentive to do anything about it ... but I don't understand why Apple hasn't addressed this (maybe today's 15% decline in iPhone sales is people saying f-it and switching to Android where you can get apps to block calls).

RileyJames
I got a “new” number when I moved to Canada. The ONLY calls I receive (about 2 per week) are robo call spam / scams. The messages repeat once in English and then in mandarin. (It’s a Vancouver number.. only logic I can see).

Most of the time they go straight to voicemail and leave the same message.

All my real friends FaceTime, signal, iMessage, etc.

It bewilders me that telcos haven’t done anything about this. It’s 100% of my incoming calls... and they only about 2 unique actual messages, pre recorded...

avtar
The Mandarin spam is not specific to Vancouver numbers. I live in Toronto and receive daily calls.
wyred
What if it was a legitimate emergency?

Like if someone used your number as an emergency contact. Or some hospital in the world trying to contact you because someone you know got hospitalized (touch wood).

kalleboo
This is a good reason for the telcos to actually fix their shit instead of slapping this bandaid on it. But until then people are just going to manually ignore calls from unknown numbers assuming they're spam calls and the result will be the same.

In this case, maybe sending the calls to voicemail instead of outright blocking them will work. AFAIK robocallers disconnect when encountering voicemail, whereas in a real emergency they'd leave a message to call back.

smelendez
That's absolutely an issue for some people but not for everyone.
JauntyHatAngle
What happened 40 years ago when home phones were the only way to contact somebody?

I'm not trying to say it's not an issue, but the mentality that you need to be connected and accessible at all times is a relatively new phenomenon. If you are in a caretaker role than sure, but if my best friend is sick in hospital and I miss it because I'm out hiking or have turned my phone off, that's just life. People are not supposed to be 24/7 contactable in my view.

jimrandomh
In those days, you would answer the phone when it rang because most calls were legitimate contact attempts. Then telemarketing came, but it was kept somewhat in check by the need to have a human make the call. Spam robocallers are a very recent phenomenon; but they've made it so that the overwhelming majority of unknown-number calls people get are spam.
blihp
To make matters worse, 40 years ago most people didn't even have answering machines... most of the time the phone just rang and rang. Somehow we muddled through. Your point is spot on re: not being reachable 24/7 by the entire world.
pishpash
People wrote letters. For urgent matters you paid a visit. Imagine that.
tomjen3
The BBC used to have a service that would send those messages over the radio. E.g "to the Travis family traveling in a blue sedan, number so and so on vacation in Northern Wales, please immediately contact Bristol General Hospital, your daughter is in critical condition"; the idea was that even if you didn't hear the broadcast, somebody near your would and would bring on the message.
jzl
But that's pretty much already a problem because most people, myself included, no longer answer calls from unknown numbers, unless we are expecting one. And my patience even for that is running thin -- more than once in the last few months I've been expecting an incoming call (e.g. Lyft driver) and have picked up an unknown number only to be greeted by spam.

If a legitimate business or other entity wants to get through to me and isn't in my contacts, their best bet is to leave a voicemail and hope I get around to taking a look at my visual voicemail transcriptions. Most robocalls don't leave voicemail, but some are starting to.

tones411
Right. If I don’t know the number I don’t answer it anyway.
Simon_says
For legitimate emergencies, 911 is open 24 hours a day. Everything else can wait until I'm ready.
sliken
30 seconds later I'd get the transcribed message. What irks me is when people claim "it's really important", but don't leave a voice message.
trixie_
Not a problem. They leave a message and you can get back to them.
[deleted]
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nikanj
This is 100% a risk I’d be willing to take. I am not trading actual every day pain for extra safety in a carefully constructed trolley problem scenario
michaelt
No doubt this depends on where you are in your life.

As a single guy with no children, I'm unlikely to get any emergency calls. But my friend who has two children in school and one in nursery? You bet they're going to call her if one of them gets sick or has an accident.

huxflux
I use a Chinese Android phone called OPPO R17 Pro, and I have exactly this feature built into the stock-rom (ColorOS) and a bunch of other really cool once, such as block foreign numbers, numbers not in my contact list, numbers not on my VIP-list, service numbers etc.
proxygeek
But you can! Mostly in Android though. I can confirm MIUI - the stock rom on Xiaomi phones - have this exact feature built in.

You can block all hidden numbers, all numbers not in your address book, specific numbers, etc.

Or one can use Tasker - an Android automation app to achieve the same functionality and more in any Android phone. I suppose these days, you can use Iphone's scripting functionality as well for the same, can't you?

Privacy concerns regarding MIUI /Android can be handled by installing a firewall like Netguard.

narag
I can confirm that. No need for me to block all except whitelisted numbers. Blocking the dozen or so worst offenders was more than enough.

Also the feature of recording conversations is very nice.

fdsak
Yes this is excellent feature and working very well
marcosdumay
There is a "Blacklist Block" app on F-Droid that (despite the name) will do that on any Android phone.
wittedhaddock
My name is James, I work for Community Phone, a nationwide cell phone company.

Show of hands: if we opened up this feature for you to control this filter for yourself or your loved ones, holding all else constant (price and coverage), would that be sufficient to cause a switch to try out an alternate provider?

meetuu
hi James, This filter is a filter i would love to have for my phone, there is a wish list that could accompany the desire to filter calls, a ^large^ list perhaps, but i think it would be summed up as another user has stated, I want my phone to serve me, not the other way around. I also believe the smart phone thing has been abused for far too long, to the point I will not operate a smart phone for reasons of security, privacy and the interruption of tasks with alerts popups updates, and feature bloating. baked in apps that depart radicly from the stated function of the app, unnessecary permisions and connectivity. These reasons and more are why i refuse to use anything other than a dinosaur flipphone, and e-mail. thanks for the ear James.
wittedhaddock
Hi meetuu, thanks very much for your thoughtful response. I totally can relate to your desire for that feature and I hope you do not feel ashamed for it. Your phone is a personal device, and it ought to exist to serve your personal preferences so that you may live the best possible life with the thing (toleration or enjoyment)! I think it can be confusing now, that they have become so impersonally social, that we can be made to feel strange for wanting them to behave in different ways. And I appreciate your desire for simplicity and wanting to get to the essence of your communications.

At what point did you finally decide to leave your smartphone behind and how severe of a lifestyle change have you had to make in order to operate and function as you have come to expect of yourself?

- We currently offer unlimited talking and texting for $15/month + state taxes and FCC fees, or ~$18.

samstave
Hi James,

Interesting service - how did it get started? I see that you're all over the site, assuming youre "Strategy Team James"... Are you the founder of this service?

Who backs the network you talk to?

Would you have a data-only-text-only SIM plan? (i.e. could I have a ~$3/month SIM that ONLY allowed Text? or a $5/month plan that ONLY allowed text+SOME data?

I'd like to put sims in some IoT devices - and want to find the cheapest method to allow this.

I have some other ideas I'd like to talk to you guys about if these sorts of things are something you're open to.

Thanks

wittedhaddock
Hi Sam, I started a previous company (caffei.net) and during this time of selling network software that improves end user privacy, battery life, network performance, and total data used to the folks building all the apps all the people use for 2 years, I grew disgusted with how little regard they have for all of the many prepaid people in the world... for whom a sloppily set up RPC connection for some trash 30 second video ad will cost them $0.40. This is why we had that lemonde.fr teardown on HN several months back: apps stuff themselves with third parties that hog up the network and thus battery life and aren't penalized for it. So the phone company we started became a way to exact the proper practices we know we can deliver, and we know that folks would benefit from. But then we started finding a lot of people in far worse situations with their big phone company providers, paying more than $300 a month for less than 2 gigabytes of data (using less than 50mb a month) etc etc. So our morals pushed us because we couldn't find anyone else helping them! Yes, Consumer Cellular, and yes GreatCall, are supposed to be good, but in practice for about 5% of users, they are really, really bad. And yeah I'm a founder.

We use AT&T, Sprint, and T-Mobile networks. We also peer with a few hundred regional carriers around the world.

What is your business application and how big of a cost component are these SIM cards and how many of them would you need? Have you checked out hologram.io? They have a card built for this IIRC.

Always open to ideas! I am james@communityphone.org

samstave
Man, I wish I had heard of hologram earlier - thanks for that.

Ill send you an email though - love the mission you describe for what youre doing.

wittedhaddock
Thanks Sam. I hope you love the mission enough to switch!
WrtCdEvrydy
Interesting, got any family plans?
wittedhaddock
Absolutely. Our most popular family plans involve two unlimited everything plans for the kids ($45 each for two, or $50 for one) and then a $35 2gb plan for the parents with an additional line of unlimited t&t for $10 sharing that 2gb pool, or $45 + $90 = $135 plus taxes and fcc fees for the 4 lines.
meetuu
hi again james, the problem with phone abuse became apparent, so long ago that i cant even remember. my wife bought a smartphone for me to use and it took less than a week for me to begin raging. the greatest peeves involved a "certain browser corporation" baking in thier browser, and requireing a sign in to a "G / G+ account" the lack of controll over basic functions, and camera use. It seemed that every time i wanted to snap a pic of a moment never to be seen again, the process was interrupted with suggestions, or a suddenly critical update [turning off OTA updates would be wonderful]. The life style adjustment that was presented to me was 1 device many uses , like camera, GPS, note taking, sharing of information. But it was a false promise as these things came at the price of not being able to actually use thes features in an effective manner. I was unwilling to adjust my life style to accomodate this "mess" so i have a task bag with SLR camera, GPS, FRS/HAM radio, PDA, laptop, and pocket router hotspot. This is my lifestyle, and im called a fossil, a dinosaur, older than dirt etc. if i had a device that was all of these things [basically a smartphone] but allowed me to ^totally^ controll it up to and including selection and design of an operating system and firmware of my own choice i would not balk at paying $900 on hardware that sits in the palm of my hand. Please all you hardware devs out there i hope you are listening as well. Thanx again James it sounds like you have a good price point as well, but im just interested in giving constructive feedback, i hope your company is able to be a suffiently successful competitor, and reset the bar for all others.
wittedhaddock
Hey Meetuu, I'm happy you've been able to find and fashion yourself a solution to these problems you've experienced. I worry about the people who agree with you, but who might not be smart enough to realize it, and instead choose to acquiesce to the mainstream pull of sterile veneer throwing up lowercase I prepends all over the place. If I comment back here in a few months, or years, will you receive my notification? I would like to give you updates and receive more of your constructive criticism as we move forward :)

Maybe you are a fossil, how could I know, but we've figured out how to fashion literal fossils into the black goop that's brought the entire world this far... fossils of all kinds must have a lot of potential!

danShumway
Huh. I am currently on Google Fi.

I'm not thrilled putting Google in charge of my mobile data, but I still trust Google to safeguard my privacy more than any of the major telcos, and for someone who uses small amounts of data, they're very competitively priced and have really good, simple billing.

But particularly with the Librem Phone coming up, I've been trying to find other phone providers I won't hate that can give me more flexibility in devices and that at least somewhat shares my values. Community Phone looks really interesting. I'm frankly a little bit weirded out that the prices are that low, I'm going over the site trying to figure out what the tradeoffs are.

Rolling out a feature like this would definitely make me more interested in switching. Even if I didn't think it was valuable for me personally, it would make me feel like the company was in close contact with its users and working with them, rather than just blindly selling to them.

From a pure feature point of view, I would still want unknown people to be able to leave me messages. I get legitimate calls from unknown numbers -- but my policy is that if I don't know you and the call isn't important enough to leave a message, you're either spam or I don't care. If it is important enough to leave a message, I screen that and then add the number to my contact list if it's legit.

wittedhaddock
Hey danShumway, thanks for your note here. I am going to share it with my colleagues if that's okay with you. You express a very important culture and way of working.

The real answer is that our prices are low because most of our users to date use less than 1gb per line (nearly all senior citizens on our 15 or 25 plans)... they were overpaying the most while using the least (but even for them we cannot be too low otherwise even the stingiest would think our pricing is too low to be credible... and I am laughed out of /r/nocontract for having prices that are way too high). And since building that volume, we've been able to keep our prices as they are, due to better negotiations with carriers.

That said, most of our customers to date join us just because they like getting a human from Boston or Milwaukee when they answer the phone who can help them quickly, listens intently to what you say, and doesn't require a "tech-ese"

For how long were you with your previous carrier before joining Google Fi and when did you make the switch?

danShumway
I don't want to derail the overall conversation too much.

I was with Verizon from my first phone until I first got a smartphone. I switched over to Fi specifically because I didn't want to deal with Verizon's billing, and because I didn't like the company in general.

The low-data approach is really attractive to me -- atm I use less than 500mb a month (sometimes as low as 200-300mb). At that level of usage your prices are very competitive with Fi. My concerns are that I'm starting to migrate away from native services where possible because of the security implications -- more of my texting is happening over Signal rather than SMS, and with the Libre phone theoretically some voice is going to start getting routed over Matrix.

I have no idea what that's going to do to my data usage, I honestly just have to experiment and find out.

Additionally, I'm starting to get more serious about using a VPN everywhere, even on mobile data, since I assume that behind Google, whatever network I'm on is absolutely selling any data that hits their towers. That may drive my data usage up, or it might drive it down because I might feel more comfortable connecting to random wifi networks if I know 100% all of my traffic is going through that VPN.

I'm in an urban area, so this is unrelated to me, but the fact that you're selling dumb phones on your plan is also pretty cool, and I can think of people who would be interested in that if Sprint's rural coverage was better.

wittedhaddock
We'd love to experiment with you on Librem. If you go through crazy spikes of data usage, we could comp them if you helped us characterize and understand the behavior-- and especially the value you hope you procure by way of privacy.

Do you operate your own VPN? Or if not, how do you truly evaluate whether you are solving your problem? What questions would you ask post-Librem and post-VPN adoption whose answers would tell you how close you are to solving your problem?

danShumway
I consider my IP address to be sensitive information, so I wouldn't host a VPN on my home network, and there are advantages in numbers to using a popular service, since you can blend in at least a tiny bit.

I use a 3rd-party VPN (PIA). This is obviously not perfect privacy, since they could be lying about what data they store. That being said, I'm not trying to hide from a government, I'm trying to hide from advertisers, stalkers, and criminals. So even if I can't personally validate that PIA isn't storing any of my data, having my data accessible to a warrant is still better than having it accessible to hundreds of different sites and companies that I 100% already know I don't trust.

I validate actual implementation security by regularly checking what information shows up in requests when I visit sites. There are a couple of tools that help with that online.

Being strict about what data goes where is part of the reason why my data usage is low. It turns out that if you block network access for most apps on a phone by default, data usage just goes down a lot. Apps like Uber and Lyft make a lot of requests, because they are constantly tracking you, so blocking their network access if you have them installed is just a strict all-around win. Even apps that should be good about this like Google Music will sometimes just randomly decide to download things.

Obviously the librem phone is still kind of up in the air, but my game plan assuming it's not a complete disaster is to migrate over to that and fill in any gaps of functionality by just programming whatever features I need. I dunno how voice calls will work. The idea of switching to something more secure than the existing phone system is attractive, but I mentioned above, I'm not sure what it would do to data usage -- I just don't have any basis to make an educated guess.

In general I want my phone to be a very specialized device -- not a dumb phone, but a phone that only ever does what I tell it to.

So a successful migration for me would look like a company:

- with good coverage

- without any horrible terms like arbitration agreements or stealth charges

- that does not sell data, and that is supportive of low data-usage

- that is at least not actively unethical :)

on a device that:

- gives me root access

- makes calls, texts, and browses the web in a secure way

- that is highly geared towards offline availability and low data-usage

- and that doesn't run extra software or do things behind my back

Librem is my hope for the second part, I guess if it crashes and burns I'll look into custom Android roms. I haven't made a list of carriers yet, but from what you say, it sounds like Community Phone should be high up on that list?

jph
Similar setup: I use Google Fi with a Google Pixel 3 phone, and I will buy the Purism Librem 5 phone.

I get ~5 calls/day that are legitimate calls with unknown numbers, and ~10 calls/day that are spam robocalls. I use Google screening and it works reasonably well; I would much prefer to have a telco do the screening automatically.

I use ~10-20GB of data per month, mostly for video calls, mostly for business, mostly via Signal, Slack, Zoom.

Feel free to PM me if you would like more. Contact info is in my user link.

masukomi
> would that be sufficient to cause a switch to try out an alternate provider?

yes, OMG YES. i get _at least_ 5 spam calls a day. It drives me mad. PLEASE let me whitelist.

I'd still need comparable coverage and pricing, and be able to use my iphone but yes i would switch carriers.

joshstrange
James, your service looks interesting but your data plans seem very low (in size, not price). 1, 2, 4GB plans with $5/0.5GB overage costs?
wittedhaddock
Right. Most people people just sign up for our $25 plan for unlimited talk and text with 1 fast gigabyte of data, and overage 100mbs for $1 + sales taxes
C4K3
Your website doesn't list the overage price for the $25 plan, only the two other plans.
wittedhaddock
Thanks. Yeah our website doesn't do us justice :)
inetknght
I have several devices including iPhone XS, a few Android devices, and a hotspot; each with its own number. How many devices do you support per account? Do you have an unlimited account and what sort of bandwidth limits do you have?

I live in Houston, TX. My current carrier is T-mobile. I'm fairly satisfied with cell service where I live, but my parents' home an hour away is garbage. How's your coverage there?

In addition to leaving my devices in do-not-disturb mode, I also specifically disable my voicemail. I am not interested in voicemail messages and have repeatedly asked to have T-mobile permanently disable it for my phones but it keeps turning up anyway. Is Community Phone able to resolve that?

What I would rather have would be if voicemail and other messages could be delivered directly to a personal email address and/or posted to a personal file server. I want to be able to aggregate my phone numbers' correspondence in any standard desktop mail client like Thunderbird.

smt88
No. Android + Google resolved my problems with spam calls.
wittedhaddock
Awesome! How long did it take to solve, and for how many years did you have the problem before solving it?
smt88
Android just started doing a good job of blocking them one day. I didn't do anything.

I had tried Hiya and Jolly Roger Telephone Co, but neither was good enough to be worth the bugs and loss of privacy.

I had the problem intermittently for years, but it becamw awful (like 6+ spam calls a day) for two weeks before Google apparently fixed it.

thrill
I use the DND of Android Pixel 2. I got 26 calls yesterday that never rang, the majority of which show as local numbers. About half of those left 4 second voicemails. Out of curiosity I turned it off for about 10 minutes. Got the evergreen "you've won a cruise" call.
uberduber
Yes, for certain older relatives who are vulnerable to phone scams. I think you should market it that way.

I feel like if I just told some of my relatives about it without it being marketed, they would think I'm the one scamming them.

wittedhaddock
Have your older relatives shown a proclivity for phone scams?
thrill
Oh hell yeah. My elderly mother started buying anything pitched to her before I jumped in and spent six months undoing that damage.
uberduber
Yes, though some of them already had a proclivity when they were young, it's gotten worse.

Sometimes getting them a prepaid phone with limited minutes, like 100/month or 1000/year, manages to fix it because it stops them from answering calls from unrecognized numbers. I guess the logic is they get upset about spending 4 cents a minute.

njarboe
Telephone spam was not much of a problem before unlimited cell phone calling plans. I would love a system to charge people who aren't on my white list an amount of money I determine to call me. I'd probably put it at 10 cents so as to not hurt legitimate callers but basically kill spammers. Warren Buffet might set his to $10 million.
wittedhaddock
If this system existed, would you be pilling to port your phone number over to us today to try it out, potentially even paying slightly more upfront?
njarboe
If the coverage and wifi integration was as good as Google Fi and my girlfriend and I can use our Nexus 5 phones, I would definitely do it right now. I would also pay a decent premium over our $35 a month unlimited call/text, $10 Gig data plan.

The easy international hookup feature of Google fi I could give up, although that is pretty sweet. All over Europe my phone would hook up automagically with the local system about 30min after my plane landed.

adenner
I also am on Fi, the feature would at least get my attention. The biggest problem I would have currently with going to your service is the fact that it is on the Sprint network, currently the last place provider in my area.
wittedhaddock
How is T-Mobile or AT&T coverage in your area? We offer them as well.
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broahmed
Hey James. Honestly, it probably wouldn't be enough for me to switch. I've been using the do-not-disturb solution for a few weeks now and I'm mostly satisfied.

However, that proposed feature plus the fact you don't sell user data to advertisers (reading your website) is appealing...

gwbas1c
Honestly, I would pay for a feature where:

- People in my contact list (or whitelist) automatically get through

- Everyone else is forwarded to a real live human who screens my calls

(The reason why I would pay is I'd rather just have a well-paid human handle this instead of some kind of AI or heuristic.)

The human could be paired with some data, like what phone network the call came from, and additional data about how likely caller ID is spoofed. If you want to get fancy, you could do some kind of machine learning where you tell the person, "this call is xx% likely to be spam."

To keep things simple, I shouldn't be able to set many preferences. (This allows the human to react the same way every time.) But, things like choosing to allow or block "good" robocalls, like automated calls from the power company, are probably useful.

You could try to make a profit by actually asking to get on the do-not-call list, tracking it, and then aggressively suing violators. When I'm interrupted on my cell phone, I just don't have the time to track this kind of thing.

And, one more thing: If you want to get into AI, see if you can figure out how to keep the spammers on the phone as long as possible. This increases their costs dramatically.

wittedhaddock
Hi, a friend of mine started a similar thing called the Jolly Roger Telephone company. You should check them out, to fully appreciate the merit of your final point :)

Regarding your proposed feature, how much time, or how many calls/fewer distractions, would you look forward to saving every month if this real live human did their job well?

craftyguy
Sounds like it would require customers to provide you with all their contacts for creating the filter? If so, no thanks. This feature could be implemented 100% on the device itself, without leaking information.