Ask HN: How to cope with job hunting and depression?
I've got 9 years of experience in tech, mostly as an engineer in high profile startups and some big companies.
I'm increasingly finding it harder to get any interest from employers, it seems like they all have better, younger, candidates.
Every new rejection brings me deeper into depression, to the point where I'm about to be homeless and I don't see a way out anymore without ending my life.
And at the same time, I realise my attitude to interviews has become worse: I'm more nervous, less excited, less happy... because I know it's not likely to lead anywhere.
Is there any hope? I can't afford any kind of therapy or get help anymore. My parents are dead, my friends don't understand or just tell me to keep trying.
59 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 138 ms ] threadMy email is my profile and I'm happy to talk to at any time, about anything.
I'm a founder and have a pretty extensive network of other founders that are eager to hire good table. I am happy to see if I can refer you to some good companies, or otherwise help you out.
Stay strong. Things will get better.
Side projects are a great way to reaffirm your self worth. People that only climb the career ladder can't build a project from ground up. Its only those that hone their skills that do. As an added benefit, it might even become a real business. Keep yourself busy.
If you're ok with death, there is nothing anyone can throw at you or hoops they can make you jump through that can be any worse.
Fuck everyone. You're alive and capable.
People that have been there or in extreme poverty, dont want to go back there no matter what.
- therapy is for people who can afford it; don't get hung up on the fact that you can't afford it, and do what you gotta do to keep going
- leave your personal drama out of the interview, no matter what, because ain't nobody going to want to hire a depressed mopey anybody
- if you suck at interviews, practice interviewing; in my most recent job search, I got a few friends to do mock interviews with me, including explaining why they were asking what they asked
- feel free to reach out to me via email; I was a tech recruiter for several years, and now I'm a senior dev at a company that doesn't suck
Better` is quite subjective & varies from situation to situation. People can be better or worse in a lot of attributes when compared to one another.
Being depressed won't help. You really really need to figure out why you're not being selected. Are you asking for too much salary? Applying to the wrong roles? How does your resume look? Have you got some feedback from the interviews that you can work on?
Since your not employed - how do you spend your free time? I would advice working on some side project, open source project, working on your people &communication skills would be good use of the free time.
This ex google guy on youtube talks a lot about software development, engineering, interviews etc. I have found the content quite helpful - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4xKdmAXFh4ACyhpiQ_3qBw
I have also found finding or hiring a job coach (offering a post hiring fee) to be VERY helpful.
Trying to lift oneself out of a downward spiral is extremely difficult.
As you say, doing new hobbies, meeting people etc. They all trigger the "honeymoon phase". Your body literally creates chemicals that turn off any depression.
The key would be for depressed people to keep changing it up and finding things they like instead of sticking with the same.
The vicious cycle occurs because a depressed person doesn't bother looking for anything, so nothing changes, so they get even more depressed.
Even if they do become self aware enough in order to make a change (as you did), they still have the mindset that "I'm doing this because I am depressed".
This means they are still not enjoying the full experience of life, as they are predisposed to failure.
A depressed person requires a hard emotional trigger to "snap" them out of it, something unexpected, something that invokes basic instincts, something that even their depressed mind can't ignore.
A simple example could be triggering survival instincts invoked by physical pain - this causes the body to take over and force the brain to engage.
The brain is no longer catatonic - it is forced to deal with the issue at hand (survival). There is no room to "be depressed". It's act or die.
This invokes instincts that activate the adrenaline in the system.
After the danger is resolved, the body relaxes and there is relief, adrenaline high. The brain realizes "hey that wasn't so bad". This high is what needs to be exercised again.
This activates the mind to start finding ways to get that high.
TIL: Depressed people need to get their first hit on getting high on life.
Depression doesn't have an off switch. When you are depressed for a long time your brain starts to rewire into those depressed patterns. So "turning it off" isn't really what's occurring, when you exercise or take medication, if anything its like a pause button. But hitting that pause button regularly can rewire you back to a normal state, but frequently adjusting your brain chemistry isn't enough. Which is why there's a high frequency of relapse with depression treated with medication.
You do correctly point out though that changing the relationship to moods and depression does help. Reorienting how you think about yourself and how you self-identify is critical to not falling backwards into depression mental patterns. The key is to realize that you are not your thoughts or feelings, they are merely an aspect of you and they change as frequently as the weather outside does.
You know what's also a great way to practice interviewing? Interviewing for jobs you don't want. Just for practice. Because you already don't want the job, the stakes are low for you, so you can relax and just do the interview.
One other thing worth mentioning is... go where the jobs are. It is easier to practice when there are more interview opportunities available.
I would like to second this. I do this by never showing weakness. Always try to provide solutions and when in self doubt, keep mouth shut.
It's so hard! I want to chat about everything in an interview! But the main point here is that most interviewers are (in my opinion) looking to screen candidates out for pick-a-reason. If you volunteer information that doesn't help you get the job, it can only help you get the boot.
Yes! Exactly this. That’s why I always have a cup of chai tea in my hand. I use it as a filter for when I need to keep my mouth shut or keep my answers short, sweet and to the point. During interviews it’s easy to start rambling and telling too much information.
I can't say I've ever been in your shoes, but I've had experiences with depression, particularly in those around me. Suicide, or any form of self-harm for that matter, is never the answer. There is a way out of this without hurting yourself.
There is always a demand for experienced software engineers such as yourself. If you live in the UK, I'd be more than happy to set you up with some people I know.
That being said, if you would like a chat about anything, anything whatsoever, I'd be happy to. I put my email on my profile so you can hit me up there.
First off, take a step back and recalibrate yourself. I'll share some advice that works but sounds crazy.
1. Start waking up in the morning and remind yourself that you've succeeded in the past.
2. Tell yourself that you're good. I'm not joking, literally, tell yourself in the mirror. I did say some of this shit sounds crazy.
3. Be confident - if you lose confidence in yourself, so will everyone else.
4. Create a realistic road map of what you want. Chip away at it. Don't pause every day asking yourself "How far you've come since yesterday?" I do that when I'm trying to lose weight, and I tell you.. it takes 4 weeks to lose 8lbs. Hell, I can gain 8 pounds in a day.. wtf right? Success is the say way. Failure can happen overnight, but success takes time. Eventually, I will see more than just my toes and my toilet will thank me.
5. Get out of your house daily, open your windows and remember life naturally ends one day. So right now step up and play the game hard. I come to realize that no one will give a shit in 1,000 years about how great or how bad I was.. no one. And those that _might_, Fuck'em™ because I don't know who they are anyhow. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
6. Stop thinking and talking negative - You're creating some really be neural wiring in your head. Start rewiring your mind for success.
I'm not trying to save the world here or anything. My mom tells me you can't force anyone to change, only they can improve themselves. I know what it's like to deal with some shitty life events. I learned to care a lot less about my failures, enjoy my victors and really enjoy the journey.
Here's a taste of some shit I experienced. Raised by a mother who had 2 kids by 17. She got her ass beat daily at home by my father; who has AIDS. I lost over 8 friends to suicide (Uncle hung himself), 4+ from murder (one was raped and murdered in high school), a man who was like my father died on my 17th birthday of cancer, my brothers ex-girlfriend who he wanted to married died at 21 in a car wreck, I was homeless for 6 months (while working in IT.. long story and FYI the Holland Tunnel Hotel in New Jersey isn't a 4 out of 5 start rating like Yelp says.. trust me..), I slept on the floor from 17 until 25 because I had no bed, I worked two jobs to put my mom through college and went to trade school at night only to get a job programming for $30k a year and I can go on and on... BUT... no one really gives a shit.. I don't even care about the shit I been through because the past is immutable.
My life motto - Fuck'em™
Feel free to use my motto and when you find your way, send $1 to $rburton on Square Cash app. I'm just kidding about the send money. Pick your head up because your neck wasn't design to support a dangling head.
If you need any advice feel free to him me up on my username at the Google-0-Mail.
Practicing sport keeps my mind focused and the negative thoughts away. I find it a great free anti depressant.
I subscribed to Indeed Prime, they offer free coaching (resume help, mock interviews...). With your background, you should be selected.
Have you got feedbacks from employers?
Did you apply to unemployment? Can you take a side job in the meantime (e.g. Uber)?
Don’t overload yourself and do a little everyday.
I'll ask a lot of questions, don't be offended if you've already thought of all of these ideas:
Have you heard any feedback about why you aren't getting any interest from employers? Can you ask your friends to review your resume and do a mock interview?
I've heard good things about getting feedback through http://interviewing.io.
Can you interview at a less selective company where you would be more likely to get an offer, just to get something? I know people who were able to get their first job at a non-profit such as a charity or library. Those positions probably don't pay well so there aren't as many applicants, but it can get you back on your feet.
Have you reached out to all previous managers and coworkers to see if they are aware of any opportunities?
It sounds like you don't currently have a job which means you can go about job search differently. I don't know if this is a possibility, but some companies have a situation where they pay you to work with them for a week, and then they decide if you are a good fit. This might help if you are fine at doing work but under perform in interviews.
Have you applied for unemployment or government aid?
I'm not as experienced as yours (I'm 25 years of old). But, I had suffered from depression as I faced betrayals in my first job at a startup. Then, started from scratch and started focusing on freelance works. I was lucky enough to find some great clients from the globe. One of them even gifted a laptop to me that I'm using to write this comment. Eventually, with the help of my clients me and my wife even started our own startup (still self funded)! Its been almost 1.5 years and counting...
Please, don't quit. You will never know what is waiting for you! Sometimes you won't find a door of opportunity so, all you have to do is build the doors so that opportunities can come to you! I wish you all the very best.
Feel free to get in touch[1], If I can help you in any way. :)
[1] https://wasi0013.com/contact/
I was in a situation where depression messed up my career and I had to open up. But what helped me was opening up to people who are not very close. There was no fear of judgement and they were also going out of the way to help out. There were so many who reached out to offer help. While it did not improve my personal situation, it did provide me the hope when I needed it badly. And over time, the situation gets better.
Also when I started looking at my depression as an illness rather than a reflection on myself, it made things slightly better.
Would suggest you to hang in there. Please talk to folks who have reached out in this forum and outside, support groups.
Maybe reaching out to old employers, ex-colleagues, taking up part time or related work might open some doors till you can get things right.
Please know that situations do get better, you have held up so far and give it some more time. When in doubt, think of the days prior to the illness, it will help you to bounce back.
The first important thing to realise is that depression is a disease; it's not you, it's a disease messing with your brain chemistry. It's a disease that makes good things feel pointless while making bad things, like rejection from a job interview, feel even worse than usual.
I can't cure your depression for you (but do talk to a shrink or at least a support group), but I do know how to make job interviews less stressful: have job interviews when you don't really need a new job.
That's not very useful for you now, when you really do need a new job, but bear with me: maybe you can find a different job, less ambitious, lower pay, not quite the kind of work you want, but something that will help pay the bills. A job at a place you like, where you like the people, preferably. A job that makes you feel happy and appreciated is more important than a job that pays well.
Then, when you have that job, look for a better job from the comfort of that job. That's hard, because you already have a job and don't really need another one right now, so why would you go to those horrible job interviews anyway? Because the stakes are lower. When you already have a job, there's no penalty for fucking up a job interview, and at the same time, you'll be more relaxed and less stressed, and because you need it less, you'll actually do better in the interview. And even if they want to hire you, you can reject them. Hold out until you find a job you want. But first, just get any job. Take a step back in your career, a big step if need be, flip burgers if that's what it takes, just to get in a position from which you can take a step forward again.
It's deeply unfair that finding a job is easier when you already have one, and harder when you don't have one. The human mind is weird that way, but you already have some hands-on experience on how weird the human mind can be. Use that experience to your advantage.
Years ago I having problems finding a job. I have a friend who did resume editing on the side. He tore my resume to shreds, but his suggestions help. I started getting interviews within the week.
Thanks for being a good guy and offering to help the OP.
Consider connecting with someone at 7cups - https://www.7cups.com/ - it's free.
Ageism might be part of it, and there's not much you can do about it with those companies (assuming that's a factor). As someone north of 40, yeah, some aspects of this aren't all that fun, because it does seem like there's always someone younger and 'better'. My cynicism has grown greatly, though, and I realize that I'm generally going to have jobs cleaning up after most of these "younger better" folks once they move on to the next shiny thing. I'm not saying I want to be code cleaning forever, but, looking at the market, there will likely always be demand for that, and you can't be all that good at it without experience, which you've got (and will get more of).
re: friends - well, if you want a job, you do have to keep trying, but you may do better changing how you're working.
do not end your life. sounds a bit harsh when I say it like that, but... give it more time, and come up with some plans - multiple plans - to try to get past this. therapy and medication may be in your future, but it sounds like anything paid may be out of reach at this precise moment(?)
I've been in your shoes - many of us have. Mental health issues in the tech community are only just starting to be recognized and addressed. If you'd like to talk (phone/email/whatever), please contact me at https://kims.al. I can ... just listen if you want, or give some feedback, or perhaps help on some practical things (resume review, etc). Your call.
I am in your situation as well for almost over an year now. Been through 2 severe panic attacks and 2 times at the ER. Nothing helps more than hope and doing something (Don`t drinkg though!)
There was a time I was applying for jobs as a Job... 9 to 5. Drinking heavily beer and coffee. My wife left and I fucked up so much more than the stupid concept of a "job". I didn`t give up... I set down and drew a line... than set priorities and Goals. I started looking less into Job openings, started working out (not in the gym, nature is the cheapest gym - running, hiking etc.) Than when in a month or two when my mind and organism cleared from the "fog" innovative ideas started to come. In another half an year (a bit financial help here from parents and friends) and after some reading, I started my own Business.
In another 1 year, found the most amazing woman...
What I am trying to say is that EVEN when you can`t see any light, it doesn`t mean there is none! You are in a "storm" right now, and as every storm it will pass! Sometimes the only but vital effort one Needs to do is to Keep it all togehter! Don`t give up, and try to twist your mind into a positive loop by Setting small Goals and making small steps. You will get there!
As for the job search, it takes a long time to get a new job, the fact that you're getting interviews is a victory of its own, just keep at it. Also if you're having trouble finding a job in a particular city, you could try expanding your search, like in different a city or country. You could also try applying for remote jobs, those are becoming increasingly popular and also pay quite well. Hope that helps, please feel free to dm me @amadkn on twitter if you want to talk. No one should deal with depression alone.