I've been following this story and it makes me very nervous that these skirmishes are getting more serious. I'm in the US so I don't have a good sense of how the citizens of the two countries are reacting to the conflict.
Does anybody in India or Pakistan want to share the situation on the ground?
Not really. You may check Pakistani media via Youtube and others. As far as Pakistanis, we are not getting into such hysteria either. We are more busy in making memes and watching PSL.
I remember the lead up to invading Iraq, what was incredible is that all the major media companies agreed that it had to be done. Whether it was CNN, Fox, etc, it didn't matter, they were all saying that we had to invade.
There were almost no dissenting opinions, now I'm always very weary when media on the right and the left agree on things, it typically means it's not in the interest of the citizens.
Not really. You may check Pakistani media via Youtube and others. As far as Pakistanis, we are not getting into such hysteria either. We are more busy in making memes and watching PSL.
I am an Indian and until yesterday, I wholeheartedly supported the strikes by us on Pakistan mainland. Please note that the strikes were to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure with surgical precision.
Pakistan took offense to this and have retaliated. During this retaliation, they caught one of our fighter pilots behind their lines. This happened when 2 MiG 21's from India engaged a dozen F16's coming from Pakistan. (Not sure about all 12 of them being F16's. There were 12 for sure. Some reports say 4 F16's , 4 JF7 Thunder and 4 Chengdu J-7)
Since then, I want the pilot to be brought back home and want retaliation to take a back burner.
India has nearly 250 SU-30’s which at least they have a chance who in the world would’ve ordered Mig 21’s to scramble against western jets after seeing how Soviet and Arab pilots faired in them against the Israelis in Mirages, F4s and F15/16s between 1967 and 1981?
I think you over estimating what the SU-30 can do; it stands a better chance but what you are describing is unlikely given the armament of the F16s.
The question is still why are the MiG 21s even operating in a contested environment when the opposition is much better armed when there is a better alternative.
MiG 21’s are due to be phased out of service this year. India had signed a deal with France for Dassault Rafale, but the deal stumbled coz opposition party accused the government of misappropriation. Things are a bit clear now and the deal may go through soon, and delivery may take around 2 years, but’s that’s what it is.
India has also signed a deal with Lockheed to produce F16’s indigenously. That may also take a while.
That’s the grim situation here. Our Air Force needs to upgrade the fleet.
Apart from all this, we have created our own Tejas, which is a Light Combat Aircraft, But it will not see action anytime soon.
I personally believe Dassault Rafale can take down F16 Fighting Falcon in a dogfight. What do you think?
War drums are banging too loud in India. Their media/social media/celebrities/politicians every one is creating war hysteria. In Pakistan, everyone is asking for peace and only peace. Don't go for my words, check twitter/facebook/youtube yourself and find out.
Having two nuclear powers shooting each other's planes out of the sky should make the whole world nervous.
In a perverse way, it is probably a good thing that they are both nuclear powers. The stakes are too high for them NOT to call a truce and end this madness before it gets out of hand. It seems like most remain hopeful that both sides will stand down after a couple of rounds of chest beating.
Knowing humanity, it is only a matter of time though, before two nuclear powers begin an all out war with each other. India and Pakistan are definitely on the top of the list of candidates where such a war could start.
No centralized command and control, little to no fail safes once the physics package is integrated and warmed up, no second strike capability all of this results in a doctrine of tactical deployments with field commanders holding launch responsibilities.
This isn’t the US and Russia where they can obliterate each other conventionally and no one would be able to fire a nuke off unless the leadership calls for it. This could start and end with a field level commander in some valley in Kashmir hitting the button because they can’t get their superiors on the line and some villager claimed they’ve seen a mushroom cloud.
No second strike capability? Do you really think either of these countries have no second strike capability? I think you underestimate both sides armies and their command and control.
Neither side have centralized command and control, no centralized launch control, both Indian and Pakistani nukes are practically unsafe and neither country has a nuclear triad nor hardened launch capabilities that can survive a first strike, the only 2nd strike any of these countries would get is due to the sheer incompetence of their opponent.
What’s worse is that both sides also lack proper early warning systems, reliable IFF, centralized communications, and essentially everything needs to ensure that no one is going to make a huge mistake.
India and Pakistan are both a joke sadly for the rest of the world not a particularly funny one, and what will start with them won’t end with them since Russia, China and the US would get dragged into the situation.
One of the biggest criticism of the nuclear non proliferation treaty is that it lacks the provision to deal with nations that achieve break out of full nuclear capabilities and allow the nuclear power to provide them with guidance and the tools to actually secure their nuclear arsenal.
To put things into perspective China only now is establishing a centralized and fault tolerant command and control infrastructure with continuity of government and military command, both the US and Russia have been constantly miss identifying anything form wild geese to sounding rockets as possible first strike candidates and you if expect India and Pakistan to handle these issues with competency then you might need to reconsider what you define as such.
Where did you get all of this information about Pakistan and India's nuclear strategy or lack thereof? Do you have a source or evidence for what you're claiming here?
Because a day earlier India announced about a fake surgical strike where their pilots dropped payload and killed a few trees and said they killed terrorists
India have played a diplomatic masterclass. They can claim non-military action against a terrorist group (that is supported by ex pakistani army men which were probably killed too). 300 in total. Whilst Pakistan took down 1 of Indias armymen and 40 soliders via a terror attack. India also claims to have down a Pakistani jet. Overall India look better on the international stage and have also manned down more numbers. Pakistan really has been useless both at diplomatic and non diplomatic methods.
Indian PM Modi was(is) in trouble. He lost elections massively in 4(?) Indian states. He is also facing Rafael planes scandal in which former French President also revealed a few things about the scandal. Opposition parties like INC and AAP raised voice against Modi's moves to mess within and out of the country. Unlike Pakistan, India has more hysteria for the neighbor and like everywhere else, using religion and Pakistan could help to gain popular votes. The attack by India was very predictable, even Indians[1] said it 5-6 months back. What actually made it worse for Modi that Pakistan responded back and captured their pilot thus made Modi in trouble as the opposition is asking questions.
Despite of warmongering Media and politicians, PM of Pakistan again asked for dialogues. Even many sane Indians are appreciating it [2]
PS: All of the Info above about India politics is based on Indian newspapers and their politicians' statements.
33 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 54.1 ms ] threadDoes anybody in India or Pakistan want to share the situation on the ground?
How loudly are the the war drums banging?
How are the media framing these events?
There were almost no dissenting opinions, now I'm always very weary when media on the right and the left agree on things, it typically means it's not in the interest of the citizens.
Not really. You may check Pakistani media via Youtube and others. As far as Pakistanis, we are not getting into such hysteria either. We are more busy in making memes and watching PSL.
Pakistan took offense to this and have retaliated. During this retaliation, they caught one of our fighter pilots behind their lines. This happened when 2 MiG 21's from India engaged a dozen F16's coming from Pakistan. (Not sure about all 12 of them being F16's. There were 12 for sure. Some reports say 4 F16's , 4 JF7 Thunder and 4 Chengdu J-7)
Since then, I want the pilot to be brought back home and want retaliation to take a back burner.
Pakistani's too support going on the offensive.
In our case, it happened to be MiG 21.
Had it been Sukhoi-30, we would had shot down at least half a dozen of them.
The question is still why are the MiG 21s even operating in a contested environment when the opposition is much better armed when there is a better alternative.
MiG 21’s are due to be phased out of service this year. India had signed a deal with France for Dassault Rafale, but the deal stumbled coz opposition party accused the government of misappropriation. Things are a bit clear now and the deal may go through soon, and delivery may take around 2 years, but’s that’s what it is.
India has also signed a deal with Lockheed to produce F16’s indigenously. That may also take a while.
That’s the grim situation here. Our Air Force needs to upgrade the fleet.
Apart from all this, we have created our own Tejas, which is a Light Combat Aircraft, But it will not see action anytime soon.
I personally believe Dassault Rafale can take down F16 Fighting Falcon in a dogfight. What do you think?
In a perverse way, it is probably a good thing that they are both nuclear powers. The stakes are too high for them NOT to call a truce and end this madness before it gets out of hand. It seems like most remain hopeful that both sides will stand down after a couple of rounds of chest beating.
Knowing humanity, it is only a matter of time though, before two nuclear powers begin an all out war with each other. India and Pakistan are definitely on the top of the list of candidates where such a war could start.
No centralized command and control, little to no fail safes once the physics package is integrated and warmed up, no second strike capability all of this results in a doctrine of tactical deployments with field commanders holding launch responsibilities.
This isn’t the US and Russia where they can obliterate each other conventionally and no one would be able to fire a nuke off unless the leadership calls for it. This could start and end with a field level commander in some valley in Kashmir hitting the button because they can’t get their superiors on the line and some villager claimed they’ve seen a mushroom cloud.
What’s worse is that both sides also lack proper early warning systems, reliable IFF, centralized communications, and essentially everything needs to ensure that no one is going to make a huge mistake.
India and Pakistan are both a joke sadly for the rest of the world not a particularly funny one, and what will start with them won’t end with them since Russia, China and the US would get dragged into the situation.
One of the biggest criticism of the nuclear non proliferation treaty is that it lacks the provision to deal with nations that achieve break out of full nuclear capabilities and allow the nuclear power to provide them with guidance and the tools to actually secure their nuclear arsenal.
To put things into perspective China only now is establishing a centralized and fault tolerant command and control infrastructure with continuity of government and military command, both the US and Russia have been constantly miss identifying anything form wild geese to sounding rockets as possible first strike candidates and you if expect India and Pakistan to handle these issues with competency then you might need to reconsider what you define as such.
https://twitter.com/zartajgulwazir/status/110069112527752396...
Crazy that a minister can write something like that. Not really surprised but still.
1. Posture to their own populace that they're not backing down (thus winning political scores)
2. Show to the rest of the world that they are leadership to reckon with, that they don't back down cowardly.
Imagine two high-school teens with some social status fighting on the playground. They will not back off because of social status reasons.
Only here, the teens have nukes.
We Indian's are fed up of these!
Paki's don't let us live in peace.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Despite of warmongering Media and politicians, PM of Pakistan again asked for dialogues. Even many sane Indians are appreciating it [2]
PS: All of the Info above about India politics is based on Indian newspapers and their politicians' statements.
[1] https://twitter.com/ashoswai/status/1072503110118096897?lang...
[2] https://www.facebook.com/hanif.ajari/posts/2606114666071848