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Ask HN: Startup failed after years of work – Can I even get a job now?

302 points by perfect_loop ↗ HN
I quit college to work on my startup. After 7 years of work, it's almost game over (will be shutting down in a few weeks).

I haven't worked for anyone in years and I don't have a degree, but I've been coding for a long time, shipping real products to real customers... How do you think I should prepare for the job market? I'm 31 if it matters at all.

194 comments

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alshtico
You may have that "founder personality" that makes it a little hard to work for other people. If you get over that, you should actually be a pretty good candidate, assuming you may have technical AND marketing/business skills right now. I don't think not having a degree will be a huge deal breaker for you.
iKevinShah
Heavily depends on where they're based, but not having a degree will be a deal breaker, at least in Indian / most Asian organisations.
onion2k
When my first startup failed and I was looking for a new role the hardest part wasn't persuading potential employers that I was capable technically, but that I wouldn't be leaving to start a new company in 6 months. That "founder personality" is seen as a downside by employers looking for someone to fill a permanent role. Getting over it, and demonstrating that you're over it is important.
matfil
In an industry where 2 year (or less!) tenures seem common, are "founder personalities" really a much higher risk?

It seems a sad thing to have to suppress.

onion2k
In an industry where 2 year (or less!) tenures seem common, are "founder personalities" really a much higher risk?

The bit of the tech industry I work in (building web apps for SMEs in the UK) people stay in their jobs for 10+ years. It's actually a problem because it makes recruiting really hard.

yikyakkidy
read cracking the coding interview and leet code. Then use your startup as precious work experience and meticulously detail the value you contributed in your domain. A failed startup is not the issue, it’s getting noticed... so your resume needs careful crafting
perfect_loop
Thanks a lot! The book looks great will order right away :)
edge17
Just to add to this, your resume is a chance to brag about your accomplishments. I've seen a lot of people treat making their resume as a painful homework assignment and they drag their feet through it. In reality it's a story that you get to write.
externalreality
You should be fine. Start applying for jobs. You have 7 years of experience. If you want (and can afford it) go finish your degree. Professors are definitely a resource and, since you will be more experienced than most, mentor people we owe it to the new CS people to help them in anyway we can like those who have helped us.
perfect_loop
Thanks a lot for the tips. Unfortunately, credits from my school expire after 5 years, so I'd have to start from the beginning and to be fully honest I really don't think I'd benefit from the material anymore as me and my team were grappling with pretty hard CS problems for the past 5 years that truly pushed me to learn and internalize a lot of CS.
externalreality
> I really don't think I'd benefit from the material anymore You'll still be fine. A lot of successful programmers don't have degrees. I am a fan of formal education you learn a lot beyond the course material but you don't seem like you are at any loss.
CydeWeys
It's worth calling up the CS department at your school, or going in person if you're still in the area, to see about possible exceptions. A lot of these rules aren't written in stone, and since you have been keeping up with programming these past 7 years you should have no problem getting right back into the swing of CS undergrad. The rule might exist just to prevent students from being set up for failure if they attempt to return to complete a long-abandoned degree whose subject they haven't even thought about recently, which won't be true in your case. And they may want to make accommodations to bring you back, as having diversity of age, experience, and especially industry experience is important to a lot of college administrators.

So don't rule it out until you have a serious conversation with them about it!

edge17
100% agree with this, a lot of the rules exist to cover the common case. The common case isn't your situation, so they may empathize with you. Industry experience is also important as @CydeWeys pointed out.
logfromblammo
At most regionally accredited schools in the US, the credits do not expire. They stay on your undergrad transcript forever. It is the degree requirements that expire. And it is the transferability to other schools that degrades. You need to investigate this further. It may be that your credits did not expire, but your degree plan did, and most of your previous credits would still be usable for an updated degree plan.

Otherwise, tell us what school expires its credits, so the community can avoid it like plague.

p1esk
Move to bay area and join an early stage startup, either as a cofounder or as a first engineer.
perfect_loop
I'm financially ruined at this point so a move to bay area would be a little difficult for me. Oddly enough, I'm still passionate about startups so this might actually work for me if I can find a way to finance it!
nostrademons
Join a funded startup that's growing quickly. These (supposedly) pay market rate salaries (although "market rate" is rather skewed in the Bay Area these days...it probably won't be FAANG-like). They're also always looking for people, and they have an immediate market for every feature they put out (which can be a big help in avoiding the burnout/depression that comes with a failed startup), and your financial outcomes on average are usually better than with early-stage pre-product-market-fit startups.
CydeWeys
A lot of companies offer starting bonuses and relocation packages, and of course they will fully pay for flying you out for the on-site interview. Do NOT rule out a potentially life-changing career move just because you're a little bit short on money now, especially because that's not even a real hindrance!
jdhawk
Where are you currently based?
rushsteve1
Relationships can be your biggest asset. After 7 years in the industry I imagine you made a few friends. Reach out to them see if they/their company are hiring. They will know of your experience and skill first-hand.

Other than that just get out there. Send out some resumes, go to local events, that kind of thing.

dqdo
You should try to join an established later stage startup. Think about the skills that you have acquired and the experiences that you have been through. Very few people are able to start with an idea an execute a product. If you have experience selling to customers that is also a big plus. Later stage B2B companies are always looking for good salespeople as well as creative problem solvers. Your experience with the start up is a plus if you can frame it properly. Many of the people who I know that are now successful actually failed with their first start up. They were able to bring their learning and determination to help their current company succeed.
auxten
Any work you did on GitHub?
cbluth
At 31 I was in my third job that paid over 6 figures. I still don't have a high school degree.

Experience counts, I know, you just have to convince them.

If you've been running a business for 7 years, I'm sure you have the experience that people are looking for.

digitaltrees
Yes. You should be fine. Look into work for a start up through YC. Many early stage companies would value your experience.

What stack are you familiar with?

sreekumarkr
I was also in the same situation; quit college,run startup for 7 years and quit. except i was 29. After meeting a lot of startups and interviews i got a job in a startup which works in the same domain.
gerlv
Had similar experience a few years ago. After 5 years startup failed. Turns out I've gained a lot of valuable experience during those 5 years since start-up usually means moving faster - you learn more. Honestly, just find some recruiters - I know everyone hates them and says their industry should go away, but with them I found a gig within a week. But since you know how to code you'll be fine, you have valuable skills.
schappim
After 7 years at a startup you’ll be a very useful person.

Other startups (especially founders) will want you because you will because you will understand the realities of running a company that their non-founding employees are often shielded from (think making payroll etc).

Your proven ability to wear different hats when necessary will be favourably looked upon.

You’re 31 and it is a great age!

You’re young enough to avoid being (age) discriminated for an individual contributor tech roll, but old enough to also manage a team.

Just apply for jobs, you can always switch jobs down the track.

schappim
/roll/role/

... I shouldn’t be writing comments on HN on a phone!

dominotw
haha damn. Tech is scary place to age. ppl have to be reassured that 31 is still young. ;D
godzillabrennus
Email me hn (at) joinjune (dot) com

I know a lot of folks hiring. Happy to pass your resume along.

stanboyet
As a CTO, you're the kind of profile I'd be looking for and would consider (5 years old (start/scale) up with an engineering team of 5). As many explained, you have a grasp at the reality of building a business that most engineers will lack. It'll be easier for you to reach their "tech level" than the other way around.

If you're in the region of Brussels, or willing to relocate, don't hesitate to contact me ;) stan [at] drawbotics [dot] com

trevorcreech
I was in a similar situation 3 years ago. Like other people said, I'd focus on growth-stage startups (Stripe, Checkr, Airbnb, Opendoor, etc). I found their interviews more practical and approachable than Facebook, Google, etc. Most of the places I interviewed had me writing and running real code on my own computer.

I spent about a month prepping with:

* Cracking the Coding Interview

* https://www.interviewcake.com: curated set of ~50 questions with excellent step-by-step hints that don't immediately spoil the whole problem. Well worth the $250 — I didn't do any Leetcode-style problems aside from these.

* https://interviewing.io: Real, anonymous phone screens. This was amazing for me because I hadn't done a technical interview in 4 years and going through a real interview with a real person is totally different than practice problems.

Companies in SF will cover your costs to interview and usually will give you a relocation bonus as well, so don't discount moving down here :)

chipgap98
OOC, does anyone know of a list of growth stage/fast growing companies out there? I feel like I remember seeing something like this a couple years ago but can't remember what it was called
lukewrites
As someone without a CS degree, I want to second how good Interview Cake. It probably depends upon how you like to learn, but I found the interactive style of the site "clicked" with me. The UI is great, and the organization of the materials is also very clean. I found it friendlier & easier to work with than Cracking the Coding Interview.

I also got lucky -- the question for my phone tech screen at the company I wound up accepting an offer from was almost identical to one of the Interview Cake questions I'd worked.

I paid for whatever the shortest term membership was in the weeks I was preparing for interviews, and it was worth it.

epistasis
Sounds like great resources, thanks.
dev_throw
FYI, interviewing.io has its own tech screen performed by codility.com. One of their questions could be likened to a novel, and by the time I read through what computations I would need to perform to alleviate the protagonist's issues, the time was nearly up.
muzani
Does your startup have any competitors? You can probably get a premium job with them and your domain experience transfers very well. People who have failed at rival startups are as valuable, if not more, than people who are successful, because they can bring in a perspective on what not to do.
matt_the_bass
This is actually a great idea. I’ve have some of my competitors suggest me working for them. Just be wary, whatever was the cause of your company’s closing after 7 years may also be impacting their company.
kalesh
I think your quite hireable. Working on your own startup for so long must have diversified your skills. Your profile could very well be suitable for a product or an engineering manager role. As you can wear multiple hats.

31 is an awesome age - don't worry too much about that.

Since you have been shipping real products, adding them to your portfolio would add a lot of value.

There are also ample remote oppertunitues nowadays. Here is a curated list of remote job boards -

Recommended

https://news.ycombinator.com/jobs

https://www.producthunt.com/jobs?remote_ok=true

https://www.producthunt.com/jobs

https://remoteok.io/

https://weworkremotely.com/

https://remote.com/

Others

https://codefund.io/jobs

https://www.remotejob.rocks/

https://www.remotelyawesomejobs.com/

https://www.flexjobs.com/

https://www.workingnomads.co/

https://remotive.io/

https://www.skipthedrive.com/

https://www.remotey.com/

https://angel.co/jobs

https://remotehub.io/

https://remoters.net/jobs/

https://wellpaid.io/

Good luck!

[dead] perfect_loop
Thank you very much for the extensive list :)
leandot
You will be just fine, shipping real products to real customers is invaluable. What is your skillset?
NonEUCitizen
Do consulting work for one/some of your customers?
planert41
Don't overlook boring non-tech companies as well. I've noticed non-tech companies starting to (almost indiscriminately) hire tech people to upgrade their outdated tech stack. They might pay a little below market, but they are also more forgiving/desperate.

Another is to reach out to old friends from college, or try to search for alumni. Alumni from the college you dropped out of are likely more sympathetic than the others.

FD: Just got a tech job at an insurance company. So speaking from exp.

avgDev
I just want to add that I went this route straight out of school. I work at a manufacturing company. It can get tough sometimes as there is almost 0 infrastructure to support development. However, in the almost 2 years I was here we completely revamped the process, previously the company used consultants and one our apps is spaghetti code.

Pros: very laid back, your work will significantly impact day to day of other employees ,You will probably get to decide what framework to use and when to move to new tech ,You will build/debug/maintain

Cons: only few people will understand your struggles(I actually plan on using discord to have people to bounce ideas off and just be a part of dev community) ,often you need to wear different hats ,management may have a hard time understanding that sometimes the simplest things can take days.

As far as pay goes, some non-tech are actually pretty competitive in my area. Also, I interviewed at one of the largest auto auction companies, got an offer but weirdly the CTO told me that the grass is always greener on the other side, as I was telling him I'm thinking to switch to a larger team and a more structured environment, that is way I was considering the move.

sergiotapia
My chillest job ever was writing code at a non-tech company. It's exactly as you described. Very rewarding when you can impact your entire team with well placed solutions.
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ccvannorman
Like others here I was in a similar boat. 36, 4 years at a failed startup followed on by 18 months of consulting/contracting.

I can't stress this enough -- put the time in to coding interview prep. Don't hate the game, think of it like a fun challenge. You don't need to know every question out of the box but interviewers will pick up on your confidence, attitude, and willingness to play. I spent about 2 - 4 hours a day for a few weeks doing this and it paid off (5 offers from 7 interviews at tech firms.)

It was difficult to get interviews at some firms (Google wouldn't return my calls) due to the resume. However, ones that do interview are usually impressed and interested in your startup history. Startups are hard!

Good luck!

CydeWeys
> Don't hate the game, think of it like a fun challenge.

Seriously. So many people spend so much time hating on it and refusing to even get involved, but if you look at it rationally, it's by far the best return on investment you'll get for your time in your entire life.

Around 5 years ago I spent about 40 hours studying for the interviews for my current job. I got the job, and I'm now making $300k more per year than at my previous company, where I was pretty much capped out. So I'm now making $7.5k/yr more for each hour that I spent prepping for those interviews. Note, that's not $7.5k/hr, it's $7.5k/yr/hr, so the value only grows with tenure in this job vs if I'd stayed where I was.

It doesn't matter if it's not the best way to evaluate applicants or whatever, it's how things work, and you need to play the game to reap the rewards. Doesn't matter if you don't enjoy it; there's a colossal amount of money at stake. Force yourself to do it. Not everything in life is pleasant, and most unpleasant things in life don't even come with rewards. People who opt out on ideological grounds are cutting off their nose to spite their face, because they could be foregoing a better job paying a lot more money.

MartianSquirrel
Yes you can! I've dropped out of college after I was offered a job I could only dream of in my early twenties, stayed a couple years, climbed the ladder quickly there and in another company, had some side projects which eventually became startups (they failed, obviously!), went back to work for established companies.

Nowadays whenever I have interviews, most interviewers are actually more interested in my old startups than in my "corporate" experience.

You have to understand that the experience you gained in your startup is what differentiates you from the masses. You have gained a rare skill set that is highly valuable, took some risks and most likely learned much more than anyone who followed the classical route of college to corporation.

Be confident in your skills! If it helps, write down everything you've achieved in your startup, mistakes that were made and how to avoid them. And as I would recommend to anyone, keep studying : read about new techs, try them on small 2 day projects, refresh your memory every now and then on key concepts in your field.

Good luck my friend!

quadcore
Happened to me too. I've found a job in 2 weeks. Take some time to rest and build your energy up again and you'll be just fine.
abhishekjha
Man! And here I am after 8 months failing to invert a Binary Search Tree or validating a Binary search Tree without much luck. Time to hit leetcode I think.
dominotw
Yeah hit leetcode nonstop. No way around it, no matter how much you hate it, no matter how much u think its stupid.

You should be able to land something fairly quickly after leetcodeLyfe. good luck.

AYBABTME
I don't get it, I never had to do any leetcode to find positions and receive offers. Why are people recommending this like it's gospel?
dominotw
posted it based on what GP posted about binary trees.
lawnchair_larry
The new generation are frankly idiotic in how they do tech interviews, which were already not great. Google and Facebook made this situation much worse. It has become a meme.
dajohnson89
Leetcode simulates how several first-round tech screens go.
samfisher83
You have to whiteboard on the interview too. Its not just the tech screens.
dajohnson89
I must have surpressed those awful memories.
tudelo
Not sure how you could go 8 months and fail problems like that. Maybe after a month or two you should have focused a bit more on what the interviews are looking for...
asark
In my mediocre Midwestern city wages are stupid-high (for the area—they've gone up like 20+% in the last two years) and anyone who sounds like they have half a clue and isn't sitting there with 3-5 years of clearly-mediocre experience saying they're looking for "leadership opportunities" (HARD PASS) are getting snapped up as soon as they hit the market. Source: have been on both sides of the table recently. In the worst case, OP will not starve.
gmenegatti
I would love to meet you. IMHO, your experience is very valuable. gabriel@slicingdice.com