Launch HN: Bottomless (YC W19) – Coffee Restocked with a Smart Scale

135 points by seizethecheese ↗ HN
Hello, HN! We're Michael and Liana, co-founders of Bottomless (https://bottomless.com)

Bottomless automatically re-stocks coffee using a smart scale. Users leave their coffee on the scale, then we detect the perfect time to trigger re-orders. We ship the scale for free when customers buy their first bag.

We met in college, and bonded over talking about businesses we could build together. You could say we've kept in touch since then: we're now married. Bottomless was born out of our frustration managing our household stock levels. We always seemed to be running out of one thing or another.

When we thought about it, we realized that restocking was a universal problem.

But if this was such a big problem, why was there no great solution? Subscriptions should be a solution, but they don’t work well for items that aren’t used on a set schedule. It seemed that if we could capture data on usage and stock levels in a passive way, we could solve the problem. Thus, Bottomless, the concept, was born.

The market for stuff people repeatedly buy is enormous. (We'll leave an exact estimate up to the reader's imagination.) We decided that to start we'd establish a beachhead with a single market. We landed on selling premium coffee because it's cheap to ship and has good margins. It also is much better shipped straight from the roaster than bought at the grocery store.

In the beginning, we built the simplest thing possible to test if the concept would work. We hacked together a scale prototype, made five of them and got them into the hands of friends. We bought coffee from roaster websites with our customers’ addresses to bootstrap supply.

The goal was to test if people would leave their coffee on a scale, and if we could reorder at the right time. It turns out they would and we could!

Since then, it's been a matter of making larger batches of scales. We bought a few 3D printers and acquired quite a few burned fingers from soldering.

We've benefited from a few technological tailwinds. For one, smartphone supply chain has driven down the cost of components quite a bit. We've been able to build hardware that works for this business model out of super cheap WiFi modules and LiPos. Also, the level of open source software for ML is quite powerful and well-documented.

We're aware that we are just scratching the surface of re-ordering hardware. We'd be interested to hear ideas that the community might have about this space!

260 comments

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Kuddos for this great concept and best of lucks! We were almost batch partners ;)
Thank you. We were accepted on our third application. Keep grinding!
I don't see the value-add of a scale over, say, a button. I'm going to be interacting with the coffee when I use it, why not just leave the decision to re-order to me then?
Thanks for the feedback. We weren't sure a scale would work either. We tested it with some skepticism.

It turns out, leaving your coffee on a scale is intuitive for most people. This actually works as a way to do re-ordering without the user having to think of it at all. It's like a Dash button that presses itself.

For what it's worth, Amazon recently discontinued Dash buttons. :)

We love our Bottomless scale!

The thing I would add is this product works particularly well at our office. It’s one less task to delegate. At home I can mentally keep tabs on how supplies are diminishing but in an office environment there are more chaotic variables that I don’t have visibility into the effect resource consumption.

Also protip: tare (reset to zero) the scale with an airtight container like a “coffee gator” and store the beans on the scale in that.

I can see the office use case a lot more than the personal one--because I might not feel like I have the authority to re-order coffee when it runs out.

Maybe you should market towards offices more? (Your website reads as very consumer-focused to me right now.)

The above is a customer, but I'll jump in here.

We work with offices now! We have 2lb and 5lb bags on the platform.

Love this product. Very warm feeling getting the "coffee is on the way!" Email every few weeks :)
Great to see a real customer chime in! Glad you're enjoying the service.
Smart move to secure .com beforehand.
Easier to remember than bttmlss.com or bottomless.commerce or some such thing, that's for sure :D
Sadly my mimosa brunch social network is now doomed :(
Love the idea. Please try to add Madcap (https://madcapcoffee.com/) to your list of coffee producers; they are one of the best coffee roasters in the US, in my opinion. They already have a traditional subscription model that ships all over the country.
We'll be sure to reach out! Thanks for the tip.
I'd also totally recommend Dark Matter. They have a great subscription right now that, IMO, is fairly approachable, but still interesting enough for folks who are into unique coffee. They also have one of the best supply chains I've run into - 2-day shipping to most places, so you're getting really fresh coffee. Turns out Chicago is nice for that.

Madcap is also excellent, as well as Tandem, Wild Gift, Ritual...

On the other side, if you're not aware, you might take some flack for working with Four Barrel, since they've had fairly public issues with their founder sexually harassing folks, and then further shadyness: https://www.sfchronicle.com/restaurants/article/Four-Barrel-...

Thanks for the recommendations!

Re: Four Barrel - copied from above:

We have been told by Four Barrel that they are now employee owned and that the former owner is no longer involved.

My email is available at my account. If you know for certain that the above is not true, please reach out.

I always keep my coffee beans in the freezer after opening the bag :/
You shouldn't freeze your beans. You can get a container which allows the beans to degas at a constant rate, which keeps them fresher for longer on your counter. Good beans don't deserve the freezer.
I'd love this thread to become a debate on the merits of freezing beans :).
Sure, coffee roaster here. It's false that allowing beans to degas c02 preserves them indefinitely as the parent comment seems to imply. There is however about a 10-hour window after roasting where degassing of c02 is so vigorous it impedes oxidation. Freezing vacuum sealed coffee, both green and roasted beans, will preserve it almost perfectly for years because freezing decreases oxidation rates by more than 90% and slows the movement of volatiles.[0] Enough people have documented and tested this and it's very common for Cup of Excellence winning and other notable coffees to be stored for extended periods of time this way. There are even cafes with reserves of such coffee, you can walk in and they'll pull winners from years ago for you to try. Scott Rao documents the research and resulting evidence of why it's beneficial to freeze coffee in his book The Coffee Roaster's Companion.[1] It's just not economical at scale, or necessary. Green coffee is "fresh" for about 9 months on average, most roasters go through specific lots of coffee well before that window closes. The sad reality is that most roasted coffee is well past its peak by the time it reaches the consumer.

You can conduct an at-home experiment yourself by finding a local roaster, asking when their roast days are and if you can get some coffee from that batch before it's allowed to rest. Seal and freeze a portion while keeping the rest in a normal valve-release bag and compare after a week or two.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Coffee-Technology-Michael-Sivetz/dp/0... [1] https://www.amazon.com/Coffee-Roasters-Companion-Scott-2014-...

Cool technology concept! Amazon will buy you for sure.

However

"Bottomless was born out of our frustration managing our household stock levels. We always seemed to be running out of one thing or another."

is infomercial level actor marketing.

Thank you! Maybe we're the next Amazon...

We are new to marketing, so this is helpful.

Congratulations! I have a similar idea, but more for refilling a particular glass or mug with a given beverage before it becomes empty (because reaching the end makes me feel sad now and then :P).
How would the refill be delivered to the mug?
The scale is a lot smaller :P : imagine a single-cup coffee machine with a scale where the cup sits all at your desk. If you remove the brewing functionality with a desktop-sized tank and a dispenser system, then you have something that would work for any beverage. There is no delivery beyond what the appliance would provide (tank to cup). My other inspiration for this idea was the Norse myth of Thor and drinking horn connected to the sea [0].

[0] http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm (pp 63-64, 67)

If you can crack the market of auto-restocking a large variety of household goods, I think you're on to something, hopefully just using coffee as a starting point.

I HATE managing 'subscription' services; it's more work than just reordering manually, (looking at you, Soylent and Amazon) and Amazon Dash buttons didn't help because the item you paired it to is never still around when you press the button.

I wouldn't want to deal with all of this overhead for just restocking one supply (coffee) but I certainly see the value if many products were covered.

Best of luck!

Exactly! Coffee : Bottomless :: Books : Amazon

Interesting you mentioned Soylent. Part of the motivation for Bottomless was our Soylent subscription. We have enough piled up to survive Armageddon.

I'm curious about your comment on the overhead. The scale takes 60 seconds to set up, and lasts for over a year on a charge. I definitely understand that any set-up sometimes feels like too much!

So you'd end up with loads of scales all over the kitchen?

I don't understand how this sort of thing would work with many food types. Looking at the product as is, I already don't want a random scale laying around. Never mind 10 scales for 10 different products. Then if you forget to put something on a scale, the product isn't ordered. It all seems quite annoying and chaotic. Also the scale is large and ugly, and something I don't want to maintain. I.e. what if it loses battery or wifi etc. Then imagine multiple of these scales lying around. I like my kitchen looking super clean and tidy and the idea of tons of these scales around the place immediately turns me off the idea.

I wish I could upvote you 100 times! The idea that this could scale out to a bunch of different household products seems absolutely insane. I can only think of a handful of items that we keep “in stock” in our kitchen and only a fraction of those that have a distinct placement in my kitchen. It just seems like so much hassle to knoll all my food items to make sure they are tracked correctly. I can’t even begin to imagine my wife going along with this and we have a young child who is just discovering how to get things from cabinets and the fridge so this is just a nonstarter. It feels like I would spend a good amount of my time just making sure every food item was exactly in the right spot.
In a different life, I was working on a device that could turn any fridge into a smart fridge. Using computer vision to auto restock food when you ran low. The prototype felt pretty magical for the few food items it could recognize.

Maybe some day later down the line :)

Sounds cool! We've thought about this concept a lot. We always assumed that the fridge would be too messy for this to actually work. I'd be interested in hearing about your approach.
It's so simple it's kind of stupid. Don't have the camera face the inside of the fridge, point it out and watch the I/O instead.

My email is in my bio, happy to show you what was initially built out and lessons learned! Could be useful for you.

The biggest stockout problems in my life are those where an inconvenience turns into a big mess. If you can expand your thinking to that problem, I'm very interested.

Specifically:

Toilet Paper

Diapers

Diaper Wipes

Paper Towels

Cat Litter

Laundry Detergent

Sanitary Napkins / Tampons

Auto-coffee refill is something I can avoid. Diaper stockout -- the horror!

Thank you! We're always wondering what the biggest restocking problems are for people.

Your list are all products we're planning to address eventually. The real question is: what do we do next?

Toilet paper. By far the biggest market out of those listed above, bulky and inconvenient to pick up at the shops while doing other things or to stock up on, catastrophic not to have. You'd need two/three levels of comfort, probably.
You don't just order toilet paper from Amazon, subscription or not? (Although I'd imagine toilet paper usage rate is pretty consistent, so that would be easy to set up a subscription for)
No. Amazon subscriptions have been really frustrating for me - not enough flexibility around amount and timing, so either I subscribe to just less than I need and run out anyway, or just more than I need and have it piling up.
The one other thing that could be a good restock is rice. A solid restock on quality rice is something that could be really valuable for folks who cook Asian food regularly, and it's something that people generally make on a pretty regular basis, but may not have a good local store that has quality options for.
How much does a typical bag cost and weigh?
I usually buy 2-5 lbs, but I know some people who go through 20-40lbs regularly.
Rice is dirt cheap and low margin. The sort of people who eat rice everyday are also the sort of people who buy a 40lbs bag that lasts for months because rice doesn't go bad. Also, my (stereotypical) impression of people who cook rice everyday is that they are not rich and willing to spend money of this type of luxury.

My guess is that rice is one of the last products that automatic restocking makes economic sense for.

If you want to get VC funding, pick the one with the biggest market.

If you want to build a profitable business sooner rather than later. Figure out which 3 would give you the best marginal profit and choose the one you think you can execute best on.

Use reusable diapers.
When I was a baby, my parents used a diaper service to exactly do this - cloth diapers laundered off-site. Here's an idea for a social-local-mobile business : bring back the diaper service.
I can't imagine having sufficiently spacious and sparsely-populated household storage that each of these things could live on its own individual scale, to be monitored in this way.
> The only sensor in the scale is a weight sensor.

? Why not add a RFID reader (relatively cheap) to the scale and then add tags on the coffee bags to be able to log the consumption for multiple types?

You could even be able to identify the weight of multiple objects (tracking what's on the scale and how the weight changes when it's removed and when it's put back) on a bigger(longer?) scale.

And you could sell kits with tags that people could slap on their own containers and register multiple custom items.

I agree, "autonomous dash button" is a nice way to present it, but if it was capable of detecting what's on it, it would become more or less a "sentient dash button", way better ;)

Yes, we've thought a lot about this. We could end up doing something like what you describe.

The reason for the current format is that we want the scales to blend into your normal life. The scale is the size of one coffee bag so you just put it where you'd normally put your bag.

The scale seems way too big and ugly to fit into my kitchen, never mind multiple of them.
coffee aficionados tend to have lots of random bulky objects in the kitchen anyways. coffee makers,coffee implements, temperature sensors etc etc

it quickly becomes a hassle to stow it all away everytime so you end up chucking it all in one "space"

Coffee aficionados don't want to be restricted to buying from a single, web-based company. Unless this company stocks hundreds or thousands of varieties.
anecdotally i'd say that coffee people tend to buy excessive amounts of the one coffee brand they like, they mess around and buy a lot of samples/get gifts but they only have one or two blends that they really like
Just a note on four barrel: One of their cofounders sexually harassed and assaulted their employees. The other cofounders were aware and complicit until a lawsuit finally hit. They promised to make four barrel employee owned but still have not followed up on that promise: https://www.sfchronicle.com/restaurants/article/Four-Barrel-...

We stopped ordering from four barrel because of these reasons and I'd recommend you'd consider not carrying their coffee either.

Thanks for the note.

We have been told by Four Barrel that they are now employee owned and that the former owner is no longer involved.

My email is available at my account. If you know for certain that the above is not true, please reach out.

I'd be open to believing that and I definitely don't want to mess them up too much, but at this point, their brand has done so much shady stuff over the years that it's really hard to trust them any more, especially when there's so many good options that don't have assaulters and potentially complicit owners in the mix.
>I definitely don't want to mess them up too much

You‘re actively trying to get other people to boycott them, which would eventually put them out of business. It‘s the first time I’ve heard about them and I don‘t care one way or the other but be honest. There‘s no „openness to believing“ the „potentially complicit“ here, your post is a complete contradiction.

More of, I'd like to see more than them privately telling other companies that they've dealt with the issues. I'm open to someone showing me something that's more definitive than "We promise we did things", given that they've previously promised to do things and then not done them.

Their website doesn't seem to say anything about their ownership more than "locally owned", and at this point, they've burned a lot of their credibility when it comes to doing the right thing. If they've actually gotten rid of folks and they're a employee-owned company now, then I have no problems with buying from them and supporting folks.

I'm mostly just admitting that I haven't heard anything definitive either way in the last few months, and since the company doesn't seem to be making it easy to tell if they've changed things, it's likely that folks in the coffee community still think poorly of them.

this is a lot better idea than those dash buttons. I wish you all the success, and hopefully you'll then be available here (UK)
Thank you! We're a dash button that presses itself. :)
So, I really like this idea, and I've been with plenty of coffee subscriptions over the last few years. My issue/worry is that I don't make coffee at home on a daily rate. I have coffee at the office most weekdays, and then at home on the weekend, and then usually also on one day I work from home.

For me, it would be really nice for your service to work out something like "You make 60g of coffee on Saturdays and Sundays, and then 30g's on Wednesday" and then work out when I'll be running out, and maybe order me a new bag to come in on Friday because it knows I'll likely run out on Saturday.

This doesn't seem super hard to do, but does seem like something that's important to work out, since there's a lot of products that people don't use on with regular daily amount.

Interesting use case.

This actually mirrors a lot of our customers, so it's important for our system to take this consumption pattern into account.

After a few orders, the system will learn that you make 120g on weekends with sporadic weekday consumption.

That's really nice! One thought - it might be helpful to have some way to seed the system with what you at least think is "normal" consumption?

The one other thing that springs to mind is having some way to mark vacations or other disruptions to schedule? Also potentially a way to mark that you refilled some other way? Often when I'm on a trip, I'll bring home some coffee from a local roaster, so having a way to feed that into the system would be nice.

Interesting concept for seeding the system. We used to have something like that and dropped it because it wasn't too accurate.

We do have a setting for turning off automatic re-ordering to handle vacations or unexpected bounties of coffee.

I like this idea, and good luck! Just wanted to give some input on this as I currently work on an ML project at Amazon. The more context possible from the user to define the space at the very beginning will increase accuracy exponentially (at the risk of a too much effort required for user onboarding). Finding that balance is important. Additionally, the user feedback is very important as well. incorporating a way to say yes a shipment came at the wrong time, or no it didn't will also improve model development. However both experiences should be lightweight and seamless - good luck!
Thanks for the advice! I agree there's a tradeoff between asking the user too much and expecting the system to learn on it's own.
I am in the same boat. This kind of irregular is what has stopped me from automatically re-ordering a la Amazon subscriptions. It would be amazing if this was solved.
Glad to hear it. This is the problem we're addressing. E-commerce subscriptions don't actually work.
(comment deleted)
Bottomless is awesome! I've been part of the service for a while now - and only stopped using it recently because my neighborhood coffee roaster (who I'm trying my best to support!) isn't on the service: https://lovelicton.com/pilrim_coffee_comes_to_oaktree.html.

I don't necessarily have ideas about how to improve or expand your service - however since you are in Seattle and utilize Open Source software, I encourage you to hack on some of those projects with the community at our next OpenSource hackathon in Licton Springs. https://lovelicton.com/images/events/2019/hackathon.jpg (our next one is April 29th).

Thanks for starting an awesome Seattle company!

~Timothy

Glad to hear you churned for a reason other than the service!

We believe companies should find a way to give back to the open source software they use. We're actively thinking over how best to do this. Thanks for the links!

Have you thought about offering Matcha and Mate? I have been ordering "Mate Powder" (I call it that way) to prepare Mate at home and cakes as well.

Taste really good and would love to use your service if you include them :)

Hi, yes, we have thought about doing so. What company do you buy it from?
It is a company which is still in Argentina and they ship. Let me find out the nme and will send it to you. Do you have an email address?
I hate subscription services and smart home solutions, but you've hit on an actual solution to an actual problem. I have a subscription with Peace Coffee right now that I have to manually manage. I only subscribed because it saves a good bit of cash. I'm sitting on an extra 5lbs of coffee because I'm not good at that kind of thing. This resolves that.

I'd totally sign up today, but why only a dark roast option? Add light roast and I'm 100% in.

Hey there, you can sign up for any coffee! Sorry our on-boarding flow is a bit confusing.

Just click the "Shop All Coffee" link.

Happy beta customer for almost a year. The only problem I have experienced is that that the roaster might take a variable amount of time to actually send the beans, so there is always a slight possiblity to run out, which is especially bad on Sunday since USPS don’t deliver and consumption is the highest during the weekend.
Hi, I'm glad that you're a happy beta customer, yes, USPS delivery times over the weekend are a challenge, we are working on ways we can improve that.
Does this require me to have it always plugged in? Could you make me an alexa skill? I have an alexa in my kitchen already.
No, the scale last for up to 1 year on a single battery charge and we're working on improving that. We might do an Alexa skill in the future.
Is this hardware for the sake of hardware? I think this would be more useful in industrial or commercial use (bakeries?) rather than home use. If I run out of coffee, I go to starbucks on my way to work and order on instacart or go by grocery store on my way home.
I had a friend hack a prototype for the exact same concept in our undergrad years. This was done as a course project and he discarded it later. I've always felt it was a good idea though.
Great idea and so many options as a business going forward! Just randomly was listening to you on Invest Like the Best today. I have an Airbnb listing that this service would be great for. Looking forward to hearing how your business evolves and grows in the future!
We were wondering whether this would be a good service for Airbnb listings, do you offer coffee for your guests? Anytime I've been into Airbnbs, my biggest complain is the bad coffee!
We do offer coffee but I agree, it's difficult to balance quality with maintainability (low-cost, minimal supplies, easy cleanup etc). We currently just use pre-ground drip coffee but I'm thinking about getting a grinder plus bottomless for the beans. I don't even drink coffee so I find myself checking reddit for reviews on grinders/coffee etc...
You could make generic jars with longitudinal light detection strips to determine the fill level.
Is a strip cheaper than a load cell?
Good question, probably not. One other idea I had was a little light sensing pebble that acts like a dash button. When it is exposed in your pile of goods it adds it to your shopping list for approval.
Could you make it possible to find the right coffee to begin with by entering some parameters and and then suggesting the coffee I'll like best?

Even reading through the options of roasters in this comment thread is overwhelming.

We definitely get it! We've been focusing on the re-ordering rather than the coffee experience, but we plan to do more here.

Let me know what you like and I can make a recommendation.

I've been using Bottomless since January. I love how it doesn't make me think at all – there's just coffee. Always.