> Shen Yun greeted me silently at the bus stop and loomed over highway exits, following me around on the physical plane of existence the way anything you shop for on the Internet starts to follow you around online.
Likewise, I'd see endless commercials of Shen Yun in papers and TV shows. I checked out a different, neat, performance in China but didn't see SY.
This makes me think of the strategy the great showman P.T. Barnum would use, typically by bombarding people with larger-than-life posters, to raise awareness of his acts. He earned a lot of business doing this.
Speaking of Baader-Meinhof effect, I can't remember the last time I saw anything about it - probably last year sometime - but I just got a brochure in the mail yesterday, and now this!
I often see it advertised at Chinese restaurants around town. Whenever I ask the proprietors if it part of Falun Gong, they all claim not to understand, or they just say no. I can't tell if they actually know what it is and don't want to admit it, or if they legitimately don't know.
Eh, they are actually pretty conversational here. Part of running a business in the South I guess. I'm not asking someone at a packed Chinese restaurant in NYC.
Whenever I ask the proprietors if it part of Falun Gong, they all claim not to understand, or they just say no. I can't tell if they actually know what it is and don't want to admit it, or if they legitimately don't know.
Don't know, don't care, they got a restaurant to run! [1] They're probably just getting past your question and getting onto the next task. My wife grew up in mainland China. She thinks of them as wackos and/or somewhat like "carnies." If they can live and let live, and they don't do something like human trafficking, then they can believe what they want and make whatever art and dance they want, as far as I'm concerned.
([1] I used to work at a local midwest bookstore chain that Borders seemed to steal its ideas from. Customers got a totally relaxed vibe, even from the workers. However, being a worker there was a workout! I probably did enough walking for that one activity to qualify as a fitness program. So if you go to a restaurant that seems hectic, there's a good chance it's not just hectic, but that just getting through your shift is a heroic feat of endurance and optimizing on your feet. (I've also worked in restaurants.))
There used to be a vegan restaurant in Austin that was overtly Falun Gong. It had religious icons on the wall and the Epoch Times available. Of course it also had the ubiquitous Shen Yun advertisements. Great food!
My family and I went a couple of years ago. It seemed fairly benign, if a bit corny/garish. The whole "evolution is evil" thing kind of comes out of nowhere. Afterwards I looked up the group behind it and read about Falun Dafa. It won't convince anyone to join their group, but it probably raises a fair amount of funds for it. As entertainment it is moderately interesting, but I wouldn't go again.
I've been once too. The acrobatics and dance and production values are quite professional and nice.
But the side-trips into propaganda made me feel like I had been deceived by the advertising, which really turned me off.
Propaganda makes for mediocre art. I think one of the seminal essays to that effect was actually written by a prominent propagandist. It's a very important idea for 2019.
For those who don't know, Falun Gong is perceived like the Chinese version of Scientology in China, although a lot of injustice was done to Falun Gong followers and most of their assets frozen, there isn't much sympathy for them and they're typically regarded as a bit weird, believing in Qi, faith healing and all that.
although a lot of injustice was done to Falun Gong followers and most of their assets frozen
No individual human rights in China. The government can squash them as they like, and if the public doesn't like that group, no one will complain. (Which makes propaganda very useful for both sides.)
First they came for the wackos, the conspiracy theorists, and the minority religions...
Yes, this is true. But Falun Gong does not become less of a cult, whether you agree with the official Chinese opinion about them or not. They have a lot of weird beliefs: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Falun_Gong . And they are persecuted by Chinese government. Both facts are pretty much true, I think.
It's also pretty counter productive and even tone deaf to put on program that alienates and denigrates the very groups in the States that would have been their biggest sympathizers against that oppression.
It also reminds us that there are worlds views even worse than the status quo. As unbelievable as that may seem.
"injustice" doesn't even begin to describe the level of persecution that they have endured in China. This is nothing like Scientology in any way, followers of Scientology are not murdered by the U.S. government.
"In order to reach transformation targets, the government sanctioned the systematic use of torture and violence against Falun Gong practitioners, including shocks with electric truncheons and beatings."
"Since 2000, the U.N. Special Rapporteur on Torture documented 314 cases of torture in China, representing more than 1,160 individuals. Falun Gong comprised 66% of the reported torture cases."
"The Falun Dafa Information Center reports that over 3,700 named Falun Gong practitioners have died as a result of torture and abuse in custody, typically after they refused to recant their beliefs. ... Government authorities deny that Falun Gong practitioners are killed in custody. They attribute deaths to suicide, illness, or other accidents."
"In 2014, investigative journalist Ethan Gutmann published the results of his own investigation. ... In 2014, investigative journalist Ethan Gutmann published the results of his own investigation. ... In December 2005 and November 2006, China's Deputy Health Minister acknowledged that the practice of removing organs from executed prisoners for transplants was widespread. However, Chinese officials deny that Falun Gong practitioners' organs are being harvested, and insist that China abides by World Health Organization principles that prohibit the sale of human organs without written consent from donors."
"In September 2001, five Falun Gong practitioners were assaulted while demonstrating outside the Chinese consulate in Chicago. The assailants, who were later convicted of battery, were members of a Chinese-American association with connections to the Chinese consulate."
"In 2002, 25-year-old Ottawa practitioner Leon Wang reported being kicked, dragged, and beaten inside the Chinese embassy after he was caught taking pictures of an anti-Falun Gong exhibit being held there. The embassy responded that Wang had 'sneaked in ... and disrupted its normal functioning' of the event."
I disagree with their beliefs, but to me, committing genocide is a few steps above teaching that homosexuality is immoral. But that could just be because I grew up in a country where freedom of speech is stressed in society, maybe in China murdering thousands of people who follow a "weird" ideology is not considered "bad".
Mostly I was responding to using "injustice" instead of e.g. "violent persecution" and implying that having "their assets frozen" was the worst thing that happened. And implying that a lack of sympathy is somehow relevant in considering the morality of their persecution.
Consider this despicable statement: "Although a lot of injustice was done to followers of Judaism, and most of their assets were frozen, there wasn't much sympathy for the Jewish people in Nazi Germany and they were typically regarded as a bit weird."
These are not at all at the same scale or level of persecution, but nevertheless if you condemn the statement above then logically you ought to condemn the other.
Someone once told me that the authorities in China are a bit hypersensitive to organized woo, mostly as a reaction to the boxer rebellion. I don't know what to believe.
In general, its not really a fringe belief and there are whole communities, typically older folks who believe in it. However those that severely believe in Qi's ability to heal and all that can be seen as slightly wacky or "traditionally religious".
In general its not really a fringe belief and there are whole communities, typically older folks who believe in it. However those that severely believe in Qi's ability to heal and all that can be seen as slightly wacky or "traditionally religious".
Embarrassed to say that my wife and I were duped into purchasing tickets to the show. We had thought it would be a highly choreographed, theatrical re-enactment of significant events in pre-Mao China, and had not done any research on it.
Instead, it was horribly amateurish propaganda (the entire "set" was a projected CG image). Heavy-handed plays for sympathy and the demonization of the Chinese state culminated in a spiritual Armageddon where a Christ-like deity leads his followers out of a world-consuming conflagration.
The audience lapped it up (this was Arizona, by the way). There were no misgivings or complaints voiced as we shuffled out of the theater. We felt suckered, and, to this day, share knowing looks of sheepishness and incredulity when we see billboards around the country advertising the show.
Yeah I couldn't stand it either. For me the low point was a mediocre male tenor singing solo at the top of his lungs in his native Chinese, as the lyrics' English translation appeared on the screen behind him: "Denounce the heresy of evolution!"
Total waste of time and $.
To be fair, Chinese propaganda comes off as heavy-handed to a Western audience, FG is putting on a propaganda show for literal survival, and FG has received the treatment which happens to "bad" groups of people. FG is a nutty cult, but (in my opinion) dont deserve to get organ harvested for belonging to a cult. Other "bad" groups might be Uyghurs now, Hui 5 years in the future, "intellectuals" fifty years ago, and lots more. The quote about "first they came for the Jews, and I was silent because I was not one" comes to mind.
interesting, i wasn't bothered by the propaganda at all. the fable they wove through the story was a bit simplistic but otherwise a fun diversion. the dancing was mostly good but not "the best". it wasn't all that different from modern chinese wuxia dramas: a little bit of rebelliousness underlying an uncomplicated morality tale.
Having grown up with many East Asians, I often times see people confuse East Asian aesthetics with looking 'amateur' to American eyes. I have not seen the show myself, but I wonder how much of this is going on.
But, honestly, I'm surprised you were surprised by the political bent. I thought it was common knowledge that the Chinese government's suppression of traditional chinese art led to a diaspora. I guess having a Chinese piano teacher who fled for similar reasons changes your perspective.
Shen Yun is run by Falun Gong, which is a Scientology-like cult. Their followers may be heavily oppressed in China, which is wrong, but it's still a cult. We're not talking about traditional performers who fled during the Cultural Revolution or something.
The CCP is 10x the cult that FLG could ever dream of being. Stop lapping up/repeating the antiFLG propaganda. Yes they have some weird philosophical beliefs, at least they are pro-love and anti-torture.
It's quite interesting that there's a big gap between English only readers and those have access Chinese(meaning language,not nation) media. FLG and the behavior of the group is well known among Chinese. The are the last one of the three groups called "独运轮" which effectively cultivated many CPP supporters among oversea Chinese community who are otherwise neutral or don't care much about politics. FLG make many Chinese upset by insulting their intelligence with foolish lies. Your experience shows almost same thing other than you don't know many facts inside China like most English reader in HN who get most misinformation on Western media.
There's a conspiracy theory that FLG is a very smart way of CPP to get more supporters.i.e. it's a tool of CPP. Personally I don't believe it. It's different from so called "controlled opposition". "controlled opposition" is only helpful for keeping balance but can not create support.
Maybe not straight up misinformed, but from my experience, many Westerns know very little about China's history and how it affects their outlook and actions.
One reason Chinese rulers crack down hard on religious cults because they have a history of sowing widespread chaos and death if not kept in check:
I read quite a bit of Chinese history but it’s true many westerners haven’t. Your comment seems a little off the mark considering the content of the article you shared.
> because they have a history of sowing widespread chaos and death if not kept in check
From the article:
>The Taiping Rebellion began in the southern province of Guangxi _when local officials launched a campaign of religious persecution against a millenarian sect_
The Qing was doing pretty badly as a state in the face of exploding population, famines, rise of banditry and a deeply corrupt administration. It was a general time of upheaval with people looking for change, as evidenced by the fact that there were multiple other rebellions going on at the same time. The Taiping was another political movement with religious trappings. Not saying Xiuquan was right but it seems their main crime, as with all failed revolts, was losing.
I’m not religious but it’s popular now to sneer at religion and toss it off as _the cause_ for events like the Taiping. And that’s not supported by the evidence or context.
Cracking down on (religion|information|other parties|opposition|internet) because your old and highly centralized state cannot tolerate competition without falling apart? That’s seems more like it. Not “religion” per se.
Chinese historiography sees China's periodic breakup and reconstitution as part of a cycle, where both changes are demanded by the times. The chaos of a decrepit state or the chaos of a country split into warring regions are both equally intolerable.
However, hard experience has also taught the Chinese that every one of these struggles cause the common people to suffer greatly and for millions to die (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Lushan_Rebellion#Death_toll , although there's some debate here)
> Not saying Xiuquan was right but it seems their main crime, as with all failed revolts, was losing.
Yes, the crime was losing—if they had managed to overthrow the Qing and establish a stable state then they would be seen as possessing the 'Mandate of Heaven'. But if you're going to rebel, lose and take 30 million people with you, fatally weakening the Qing state in the process and setting it up for more colonization by the West and Japan—what was actually accomplished by this enormous cost of human suffering?
It's not religion per se that the state fears most, just any source of authority that can inspire the common people to rebel against it. Communism certainly worked well recently.
The West has had the fortune of recent history from the post-Renaissance era being a time of generally increasing standards of living and political liberation. From the French to the American to the Glorious Revolutions, they are seen as successful struggles against backwards tradition and monarchy.
China on the other hand has both the blessing and curse of remembering 2000+ years of both cycles of prosperity as well as collapse.
Hey, you might even get away with asking for a free ticket! I remember walking in by mistake and an old lady on her way out promptly asked if we wanted to see it - she was very excited. I was just there to check out the theater itself. Five minutes later we were in the theater, watching the thing, trying to find ways to leave without offending the nice lady who'd just given us free tickets to the show :)
Well, I guess my priors need a bit of tuning; they picked up from the pervasiveness of the advertising that this must be a funded propaganda push, but I assumed it would be from the Chinese government, not someone rather bitterly opposed to them.
(This is not an *-ist comment; that governments promote their cultures in other countries to create "soft power" is an established fact. I for one would love in many ways to live in a world where all our conflicts were solved with such soft power, rather than the harder kind.)
> but I assumed it would be from the Chinese government, not someone rather bitterly opposed to them.
I have to admit, I thought exactly the same. Just yesterday saw a booth with a nicely dressed man in a suit, selling Shen Yun tickets and thought it must a troupe from China and wondered how much propaganda is in it. I was imagining something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute. Then today saw this on the HN front page.
It turns out yes, it is selling propaganda, but not the kind I thought.
I think a Falun Gong association was my initial assumption (don't really remember now, to be honest), but I was already quite familiar with the significant push behind the Epoch Times, which tends to wear its anti-Chinese-government stance rather more on its sleeve in the form of headlines.
Of course on the other end of things there's China Daily so... maybe not such a helpful data point.
Jia Tolentino's pieces often resonate, in that particular way of things that are at the right distance to what they are talking about: close enough to understand them but far enough to show their place in time and space, culturally.
I live in the Boston area and they are very, very persistent when it comes to promoting the event. It seems like every local business has a Shen Yun poster in the window, and they go to door-to-door with flyers. There are TV ads on local broadcasters. And of course they are all over Facebook with ads. This reflects not only the zeal of the volunteers but a very large budget to do the broadcast ads.
The local media and most of the public seems to have no clue that it's a propaganda gambit.
For those interested in China, serpentza's youtube channel recently did a video about this. The youtube channel China Uncensored is also funded by people associated with Falun Gong. It is ridiculous anti-China propaganda, though some of it is warranted.
I got duped into buying tickets to this show for my wife as an anniversary present a couple years ago. (This was in Atlanta, GA) We spent the first half in utter disbelief of the crap we were witnessing, and left in disgust during intermission. However we were definitely in the minority, and found that very puzzling. Maybe the political religious stuff was going over most people's heads?
"Chinese scientists with doctorates from prestigious American universities who practice Falun Gong claim that modern physics (for example, superstring theory) and biology (specifically the pineal gland's function) provide a scientific basis for their beliefs."
...
"For further information, consult your pineal gland."
The other day I found a video about the "cultural war" between Falun Gong and Chinese govt., in the form of two disguised fronts (Shen Yun and Confucius Institute, respectively) within the US soil. This was made by a Western guy who's associated with neither of them. It's quite interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tsXtk7psUc
Here in Japan, I see that a few large private universities are affiliated with Confucius Institute, and I have seen a Shen Yun ad on YouTube. The cultural war is certainly going on here too.
The Chinese government does not need or want a "Taiping Rebellion" equivalent to that of the infamous Hong Xiuquan -- which was the largest war in human history in terms of casualties and destruction. So to them, Falun Gong and it's leader represent that kind of threat, once it reached tens of millions in size. That is orders of magnitude larger than the student protests in Tiananmen, and that was brutally suppressed. Totalitarian regimes are going to be just that, brutal/monsterous and unforgiving.
The Taiping movement sprung up during the failing days of the Qing when governance was declining and life for the common people worsened, so maybe the PRC government should focus on fixing that first before torturing dissidents
Making life better for hundreds of millions of people is a very hard problem. Crushing dissent with terror and violence by contrast is relatively simple. It’s no wonder that tyrants tend to the latter and only the former as it impacts their greatest sources of support. In other words, Kim Jong-Un only worries about the population of Pyongyang elites, especially the military, and feels free to let the rest starve or rot in a camp.
The rise of Falun Gong was well correlated to a period of economic uncertainty in the late 90s, especially in the Manchurian rust belt cities where neoliberal reforms lead to massive unemployment and poverty. While the allegation of torture and organ harvesting are substantive, these acts were in no way targeted at FG followers or political prisoners in general. And FG's attempt at monopolizing such victimhood only comes off as disingenious.
Nowadays FG is very much a shadow of its former glory these days in China thanks to both supression efforts as well as improved economic prospects. Its influence has aged much better outside China because the Chinese diaspora's world view is more or less stuck in the 1990s, like it was the end of history according to Francis Fukuyama.
These rebellions usually have a frame story of an ancient way of life founded on people's harmony with nature and one another. Because the government operates at variance with this harmony, the government is not legitimate and must be replaced.
Francis Fukuyama talks at length about the "Mandate of Heaven" concept and its impact on legitimacy in China in his recent books.
That one is the best. When I tell people about it they think it is too ridiculous to be true. A guy who thought he was Jesus's brother started a war that killed tens of millions of people.
My wife and I went a few years back and felt like we got scammed. Low quality acrobatics, with heavy handed propaganda and unexpected religious messaging. We didn’t sign up for that.
Most Chinese people I know already have a clear understanding of how creepy and weird Shen Yun is, and view it in the same light as Scientology. But that message hasn't gotten out to everyone else yet. It's not a beautiful chinese art, culture, and dance show.
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[ 1.6 ms ] story [ 255 ms ] threadMore than that -- until I read this, I had half-convinced myself that I'd been seeing these posters since the early 90s, not 2007!
> Shen Yun greeted me silently at the bus stop and loomed over highway exits, following me around on the physical plane of existence the way anything you shop for on the Internet starts to follow you around online.
This makes me think of the strategy the great showman P.T. Barnum would use, typically by bombarding people with larger-than-life posters, to raise awareness of his acts. He earned a lot of business doing this.
Don't know, don't care, they got a restaurant to run! [1] They're probably just getting past your question and getting onto the next task. My wife grew up in mainland China. She thinks of them as wackos and/or somewhat like "carnies." If they can live and let live, and they don't do something like human trafficking, then they can believe what they want and make whatever art and dance they want, as far as I'm concerned.
([1] I used to work at a local midwest bookstore chain that Borders seemed to steal its ideas from. Customers got a totally relaxed vibe, even from the workers. However, being a worker there was a workout! I probably did enough walking for that one activity to qualify as a fitness program. So if you go to a restaurant that seems hectic, there's a good chance it's not just hectic, but that just getting through your shift is a heroic feat of endurance and optimizing on your feet. (I've also worked in restaurants.))
"The fact that everyone in 2019 communicates via propaganda makes it almost impossible to understand what’s really happening."
"Social media" is a bit of a whitewash. It should really be called, "Everyone Propaganda!"
But the side-trips into propaganda made me feel like I had been deceived by the advertising, which really turned me off.
But the side-trips into propaganda made me feel like I had been deceived by the advertising, which really turned me off.
Propaganda makes for mediocre art. I think one of the seminal essays to that effect was actually written by a prominent propagandist. It's a very important idea for 2019.
Science Belief 1: Evolution.
Simultaneous Religious Belief 1: Humans have souls and are special, elevated beings existing above the realm of the animals.
You’d be surprised how many smart people believe both!
No individual human rights in China. The government can squash them as they like, and if the public doesn't like that group, no one will complain. (Which makes propaganda very useful for both sides.)
First they came for the wackos, the conspiracy theorists, and the minority religions...
It also reminds us that there are worlds views even worse than the status quo. As unbelievable as that may seem.
"injustice" doesn't even begin to describe the level of persecution that they have endured in China. This is nothing like Scientology in any way, followers of Scientology are not murdered by the U.S. government.
Just take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong#Tort...
"In order to reach transformation targets, the government sanctioned the systematic use of torture and violence against Falun Gong practitioners, including shocks with electric truncheons and beatings."
"Since 2000, the U.N. Special Rapporteur on Torture documented 314 cases of torture in China, representing more than 1,160 individuals. Falun Gong comprised 66% of the reported torture cases."
"The Falun Dafa Information Center reports that over 3,700 named Falun Gong practitioners have died as a result of torture and abuse in custody, typically after they refused to recant their beliefs. ... Government authorities deny that Falun Gong practitioners are killed in custody. They attribute deaths to suicide, illness, or other accidents."
"In 2014, investigative journalist Ethan Gutmann published the results of his own investigation. ... In 2014, investigative journalist Ethan Gutmann published the results of his own investigation. ... In December 2005 and November 2006, China's Deputy Health Minister acknowledged that the practice of removing organs from executed prisoners for transplants was widespread. However, Chinese officials deny that Falun Gong practitioners' organs are being harvested, and insist that China abides by World Health Organization principles that prohibit the sale of human organs without written consent from donors."
And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong_outside_mainland_Ch...
"In September 2001, five Falun Gong practitioners were assaulted while demonstrating outside the Chinese consulate in Chicago. The assailants, who were later convicted of battery, were members of a Chinese-American association with connections to the Chinese consulate."
"In 2002, 25-year-old Ottawa practitioner Leon Wang reported being kicked, dragged, and beaten inside the Chinese embassy after he was caught taking pictures of an anti-Falun Gong exhibit being held there. The embassy responded that Wang had 'sneaked in ... and disrupted its normal functioning' of the event."
Just because a government does bad things to a group, doesn't mean the group is now good. Doesn't mean they're bad either.
Mostly I was responding to using "injustice" instead of e.g. "violent persecution" and implying that having "their assets frozen" was the worst thing that happened. And implying that a lack of sympathy is somehow relevant in considering the morality of their persecution.
Consider this despicable statement: "Although a lot of injustice was done to followers of Judaism, and most of their assets were frozen, there wasn't much sympathy for the Jewish people in Nazi Germany and they were typically regarded as a bit weird."
These are not at all at the same scale or level of persecution, but nevertheless if you condemn the statement above then logically you ought to condemn the other.
Don’t mistake lack of opportunity for lack of will. Nutty ideologies are ‘harmless’ till they have an opportunity to act on their nuttiness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion#Death_toll
What exactly is that?
Instead, it was horribly amateurish propaganda (the entire "set" was a projected CG image). Heavy-handed plays for sympathy and the demonization of the Chinese state culminated in a spiritual Armageddon where a Christ-like deity leads his followers out of a world-consuming conflagration.
The audience lapped it up (this was Arizona, by the way). There were no misgivings or complaints voiced as we shuffled out of the theater. We felt suckered, and, to this day, share knowing looks of sheepishness and incredulity when we see billboards around the country advertising the show.
But, honestly, I'm surprised you were surprised by the political bent. I thought it was common knowledge that the Chinese government's suppression of traditional chinese art led to a diaspora. I guess having a Chinese piano teacher who fled for similar reasons changes your perspective.
Here's the article's quote that I think sums it all up:
> The fact that both Falun Gong and the Communist Party communicate via propaganda makes it almost impossible to understand what’s really happening
[0] http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2053761,00...
I’m guessing that both are driven strongly by economics, so it makes sense that there is some perceptual overlap.
There's a conspiracy theory that FLG is a very smart way of CPP to get more supporters.i.e. it's a tool of CPP. Personally I don't believe it. It's different from so called "controlled opposition". "controlled opposition" is only helpful for keeping balance but can not create support.
Edit:for typo
What are specific things you feel most Westerners are clearly misinformed about China?
One reason Chinese rulers crack down hard on religious cults because they have a history of sowing widespread chaos and death if not kept in check:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion#Death_toll
Led by a guy who claimed to be Jesus Christ's brother. 20-30 million is in the range of WW1 casualties.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19437920 has some other examples
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution#Death_toll
> because they have a history of sowing widespread chaos and death if not kept in check
From the article:
>The Taiping Rebellion began in the southern province of Guangxi _when local officials launched a campaign of religious persecution against a millenarian sect_
The Qing was doing pretty badly as a state in the face of exploding population, famines, rise of banditry and a deeply corrupt administration. It was a general time of upheaval with people looking for change, as evidenced by the fact that there were multiple other rebellions going on at the same time. The Taiping was another political movement with religious trappings. Not saying Xiuquan was right but it seems their main crime, as with all failed revolts, was losing.
I’m not religious but it’s popular now to sneer at religion and toss it off as _the cause_ for events like the Taiping. And that’s not supported by the evidence or context.
Cracking down on (religion|information|other parties|opposition|internet) because your old and highly centralized state cannot tolerate competition without falling apart? That’s seems more like it. Not “religion” per se.
Chinese historiography sees China's periodic breakup and reconstitution as part of a cycle, where both changes are demanded by the times. The chaos of a decrepit state or the chaos of a country split into warring regions are both equally intolerable.
However, hard experience has also taught the Chinese that every one of these struggles cause the common people to suffer greatly and for millions to die (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Lushan_Rebellion#Death_toll , although there's some debate here)
> Not saying Xiuquan was right but it seems their main crime, as with all failed revolts, was losing.
Yes, the crime was losing—if they had managed to overthrow the Qing and establish a stable state then they would be seen as possessing the 'Mandate of Heaven'. But if you're going to rebel, lose and take 30 million people with you, fatally weakening the Qing state in the process and setting it up for more colonization by the West and Japan—what was actually accomplished by this enormous cost of human suffering?
It's not religion per se that the state fears most, just any source of authority that can inspire the common people to rebel against it. Communism certainly worked well recently.
The West has had the fortune of recent history from the post-Renaissance era being a time of generally increasing standards of living and political liberation. From the French to the American to the Glorious Revolutions, they are seen as successful struggles against backwards tradition and monarchy.
China on the other hand has both the blessing and curse of remembering 2000+ years of both cycles of prosperity as well as collapse.
(This is not an *-ist comment; that governments promote their cultures in other countries to create "soft power" is an established fact. I for one would love in many ways to live in a world where all our conflicts were solved with such soft power, rather than the harder kind.)
I have to admit, I thought exactly the same. Just yesterday saw a booth with a nicely dressed man in a suit, selling Shen Yun tickets and thought it must a troupe from China and wondered how much propaganda is in it. I was imagining something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute. Then today saw this on the HN front page.
It turns out yes, it is selling propaganda, but not the kind I thought.
Of course on the other end of things there's China Daily so... maybe not such a helpful data point.
The local media and most of the public seems to have no clue that it's a propaganda gambit.
...
"For further information, consult your pineal gland."
Here in Japan, I see that a few large private universities are affiliated with Confucius Institute, and I have seen a Shen Yun ad on YouTube. The cultural war is certainly going on here too.
Nowadays FG is very much a shadow of its former glory these days in China thanks to both supression efforts as well as improved economic prospects. Its influence has aged much better outside China because the Chinese diaspora's world view is more or less stuck in the 1990s, like it was the end of history according to Francis Fukuyama.
0184 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Turban_Rebellion
1351 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Turban_Rebellion
1794 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Lotus_Rebellion
These rebellions usually have a frame story of an ancient way of life founded on people's harmony with nature and one another. Because the government operates at variance with this harmony, the government is not legitimate and must be replaced.
Francis Fukuyama talks at length about the "Mandate of Heaven" concept and its impact on legitimacy in China in his recent books.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion