Ask HN: Amazon delisted me – what do I do?
But I'm continually running into walls with BigTechCos. I'm just coming off the end of having had my Instagram account deleted by Facebook because a graffiti artist and his trolls were able to flag my IG account and left me unable to appeal[1]. 20k followers, 4 years of work gone. My entire customer base is primarily on IG and they are shocked to find that I'm not; so I feel the pain every day and the fact that I'm no longer advertising on FB because of it is a loss-loss in my opinion. Can not explain how upsetting it is for me.
To add insult to injury Amazon randomly delisted my product. I randomly received an email that they removed me [2]. I checked the listing and saw that a customer had left a bad review. I went to contact that customer [3] and saw that the seller in that instance wasn't me, it was Adorama, a retailer who sells the product I created. I figured this was the sale that got my account flagged, so I responded trying to explain that I sell an OEM product so I wouldn't sell anything used/broken[4]. They then respond that my response is not sufficient[5]. I then decide to give them what they want, contact my manufacturer, come up with a plan [6]. Pretty long, with evidence, a spreadsheet, and even more detailed notes at the end of the email.
Today they've just gotten back to me saying they refuse to reinstate it and that I'm shit out of luck [7]. I am livid at this point. What else did they want? And if they weren't going to reinstate me in the first place, why not just say that? According to my account dashboard my account is in perfect 'health'[8] and there is absolutely no indication that there is anything wrong. I feel like I am being trolled.
It feels so perverse because I live in Seattle so I am always rooting for Amazon. Now, after having finally taken the leap and quit my job and started a company that's beginning to do well, the companies that I've always applauded are totally screwing up my business and leaving me stranded with no options. Not even a customer support number. I don't typically get stressed but the helplessness in the hands of these companies has been keeping me up at night. I feel the stress.
Does anyone have any ideas of what I could do? I live in Seattle so are there any offices or people I could try reasoning with in person? And also if anyone can tell me what I did wrong. If anyone has any information that could be useful I would seriously appreciate it because this is quite literally my livelihood and my entire life.
Thank you for reading. Also sorry for the rant; I am not usually so forthcoming; the entire situation though, is just so dis-empowering.
Edit: here is also the product listing in question [9]
[0] https://www.getfractals.com
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19166053
[2] https://imgur.com/a/aQLThvj
[3] https://imgur.com/a/xm8dAoI
[4] https://imgur.com/a/8biKZlT
[5] https://imgur.com/a/ZSVz7vn
[6] https://imgur.com/a/IZgOfuA
[7] https://imgur.com/a/j81rJyk
[8] Does anyone have any ideas of what I could do? I live in Seattle so are there any offices or people I could try reasoning with in person? And also if anyone can tell me what I did wrong. If anyone has any information that could be useful I would seriously appreciate it because this is quite literally my livelihood and my entire life. Thank you for reading. Also sorry for the rant; I am not usually so forthcoming; the entire situation though, is just so dis-empowering. Edit: here is also the product listing in question [9] [0] https://www.getfractals.com
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19166053
[2] https://imgur.com/a/aQLThvj
[3] https://imgur.com/a/xm8dAoI
[4] https://imgur.com/a/8biKZlT
[5] https://imgur.com/a/ZSVz7vn
[6] https://imgur.com/a/IZgOfuA
[7] https://imgur.com/a/j81rJyk
[8] https://imgur.com/a/dP11fCc
[9] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OHD49R6?ref=myi_title_dp In any case, good luck. I feel like I did everything I could to be on the correct side of this economic gamble; having worked for a few BigTechCo's; studying, training hard, teaching myself to code. But still, they don't even treat me right. It's like they're accountable to no one. They are more and moreso becoming public enemy #1 and I feel like that's a position for which they are totally deserving. But fundamentally there is still a website that has listings and someone has to patrol it for quality / spam. Those people will have to use algorithms, and they will make mistakes. Don't get me wrong. Breaking up Amazon is a good idea, and should happen, but it's unlikely to help here. Read up on the break-up of Standard Oil.[0] If we took that approach with a tech giant, we'd end up with lots of smaller independent companies which compete with each other in their markets, not companies which each (still!) completely dominate one particular market segment. MmThe break en up mantra seems demagogic pandering as opposed to a real solution- especially when actual abusive and far more dominant, abusive, and all consuming monopolies walk by in the background whistling. Amazon has no qualms delisting businesses making tenth of megabucks on Amazon, and it is very unlikely that they will make an exception for a small business. I know no Amazon vendor in China that doesn't deal with random closures by just reopening the account, and often with the same credentials. "Funny" thing is their anomaly detection algorithms are really bad and they tend to keep counterfeit sellers while kicking out genuine ones more often with no way to appeal in a reasonable fashion, i.e. paying some external company with individual ties to Amazon managers to reinstate sellers... Complete mafia around selling on that badly designed platform. It is common knowledge that you have much better chance to re-register without any trickery in a big city, than in a small one. Imagine, you have few hundreds Liu Chens running some undescript Zhongguo Electronics in every megacity, and very likely all having addresses like "Northern/Western/Eastern Industrial Park Zone 123" – add some fuzzy logic here and you have a recipe for disaster. The only thing you can do is refuse to play. I'd get a (off shelf) storefront up on a domain you control and can remain in control of and start looking for alternative sources of customers. If you have a customer database of any kind, send out marketing emails with product / brand relaunch. Start posting on twitter, insta, google adwords, popular related forums, everything you can. If you have a loyal customer base they will find you again. I know I would. What? I've never once had a problem with an Amazon return. You click "return this item", choose the return method (their newer "Locker" thing around the corner is pretty convenient) and that's all that needs to happen. I mean... there's lots to complain about with Amazon, as there is for any big company. But customer service just isn't one of them as I see it. What has your experience been that you think Amazon "doesn't deal with" returns? as an example, in the past year, i have had to return/replace greater than 50% of the books i received from them since the books have ranged from being damaged, torn, or just plain dirty. it may be less than 50%, but there have definitely been windows of time where it's greater than that. this is a MASSIVE inconvenience because although all i have to do to initiate the return is click a button, i also have to handle repacking the books and then physical driving or walking them to a dropoff point, all of which takes an hour round trip. i have contacted amazon multiple times, and i am not even able to get the point across. they see that i returned or exchanged the book, so the problem is solved from their end. when i explain that this wastes so much of my time and effectively negates the amazon prime benefit of one or two day shipping (since once the book ships, arrives, i see it's damaged, initiate return process, wait on new shipping which defaults to two days even for books that shipped in one day in the first place takes about a week), they offer a $5 amazon gift card. there was no escalation process whatsoever or even concern. just this week, i have had to return two books back to them because both books basically arrived used, with dirty and damaged covers and stained pages. the box is in my car ready to be dropped of at ups. it's to the point that i am beginning to have no reason to shop on amazon for books anymore, and i am even considering canceling prime. i have noticed a marked dropped in quality of the books and packing, and i am also just tired of their terrible website. they were the originator of the online book sales, yet their website remains absolutely horrid for books, especially when it comes to multiple editions, releases, paperback vs hardback, etc. earlier this week, i came across a product listing that had reviews that were clearly for another product. there is no button to report such instances of reviews. try contacting amazon and see if anything even remotely helpful is done. and that's a case of you trying to help them. amazon, apple, and google are perfect examples of what you get at "scale": companies that treat customers as replaceable resources that should have interactions minimized. the less these companies have to deal with customers and users, the better, from their perspective. I ordered something and the wrong item came in. Returned it, another wrong item came in. Contacted support (had a bookmark, as apparently it's very hard these days to figure out how to reach somebody in their UI), they apologized, returned it and what do you know... another wrong item received. Contacted support again, made a fuss, they finally sent the right item but now the return tag was not 'package free' so I had to pay for the packaging at the UPS store. I wouldn't care normally, it was super cheap but I was so pissed off, contacted support again and only then did I manage to return the thing and get my refund. You can go in your recent order -> Return or Replace items. Want to contact an human? Go to the Footer -> Customer Service -> Contact Us -> Fill the fields -> Select Phone Call or Chat. It's really one of the best customer service I've ever experienced on an online marketplace. They call you and have your customer file already open. They also give a General Help Number on their Contact us page. > Toll free: 1-877-586-3230 (Canada)
> International: 1-206-266-2882 Today I got a delivery for 6 revision books for my daughter. One is incorrect. I know when I return it, I'm going to get the same damn wrong book again because somewhere along the line someone doesn't give a fuck and everything is so utterly compartmentalised. I only say this is going to happen because it has happened to me twice before. Then there's the two marketplace sellers I've complained and complained about and they didn't deal with it at all. Whereas the OP got shafted once. It's an efficient bureaucracy, reminiscent of the film Brazil, nothing more. But, (and I can attest to this myself personally), some people just won't purchase if it's not sold on Amazon. I know when I buy on a third party site, I am very worried about shipping, accountability, giving my CC info out, etc. The peace of mind that Amazon offers is tremendous. I get that. So, there's a huge fraction of my overall volume that I sell on AMZ that diminishes completely when I stop (happens, for example, now, and other times, when inventory runs out). It's a shame but I totally get it. You need to do a little bit of research on the type of response they are looking for as far as your "plan". You are talking to them and sending them screenshots as if you are talking to a human that cares. They do not. Your messages are going into a queue of thousands where low paid, unskilled workers are skimming through then as fast as possible and clicking approve or deny. You need to work the system, adjust your responses according to what their blanket response says and just keep at it. Modify your plan and resend it. But wait for them to respond each time before you message again. Don't over do the detail. But create a numbered list with what you are going to do to correct the problem. I had the same issue with one of my accounts. It took maybe 9 letters until they finally reinstated me. There was nothing special in that 9th letter. It probably just got read by someone in a good mood that day. If this is your first issue and you don't have any other serious issues with your account, you should be able to get it back. You should include the screenshots as documentation but you should clearly summarize the steps you are taking to address whatever concerns they have. It's tedious and stressful but should make it easier for your case to be resolved. Good luck. It is silly, the whole process encourages you to wildly over promise in your plan, a reasonable set of steps to solve the problem likely won't get you anywhere. Even have to admit to and propose a fix to problems that were never there to fix their check boxes. There is also a wall between account managers and the seller performance teams, we have had account mangers pushing to get our account back on and not being able to help. OP- There is a lot of information online so just continue to research and work out exactly what they are looking for, what their check boxes look like, and then write something that hits them all. On the positive side it is rare a final determination from them is actually final and they will generally still look at things after the deadlines they have set. Our case isn't yours, but that's the only thing I can tell you. Shotgun initial requests to 3-5 addresses. Make it quit clear that you a) are generating value for Amazon b) want to continue doing so and c) fixed the issue (or better that there actually wasn't an issue and you got flagged for the wrong reason). Ultimately, this is a question about policy. Big platforms need to be regulated. They are no longer a single business you can avoid. They are a platform, a monopoly holding influence over our daily lives, with the power to destroy financial existences due to algorithmic decisions. You never know beforehand what could go wrong, there is no proper way to contact Amazon in emergencies (like a hotline). You have no way to reinstate your seller account if Amazon simply says "no". (Maybe you could sue them, but you're going to be bankrupt long before that process is finished). Power imbalance is at the root of all injustice and exactly the reason we need rights to protect those with less. I sincerely hope you can save your business. Very weird. I know a guy who wants to close his seller account and the number of hoops he has to jump through is ridiculous, despite not having sold anything in years. In the US, I used to use Amazon to re-sell things I no longer wanted / needed. Old books, especially technical ones, usually got a great price. Electronics I'd replaced would also do really well, especially since I kept the original packaging. And before I'd move to a new city, I'd sell as much as I could. Back then it was essentially encouraged, with a button showing "You purchased this item on <date>, click here to sell it!". I'd had excellent reviews from all buyers and as far as I was concerned it was the best way to get rid of quality goods because the sale was already made - I just needed to package and ship. About a year later, I tried to go on to sell some things I'd replaced and it turned out they killed my seller account. Worse, I couldn't contact customer service because authentication on their Seller site was required, and my account was closed. I called a few numbers and finally got hold of someone and was told my account was closed because I hadn't sold anything in a while. Seemed odd. I asked if they could re-open my account, which had been left in excellent standing, and that was denied. The support person suggested I just start a new account with a new email address. That seemed ridiculous to me. I don't want a new email address. All that good will I'd built with the hundred or so things I'd sold: Gone, with no chance of return. Since I'm not trying to make a living on the platform, I was tossed. I'm surely not a blip on their radar, but I easily would have sold at least another $10k worth of stuff through them over the next few years. It was a pretty great thing. Unfortunate how they've ruined it so. One of the replies told us exactly the same. Just reopen with a new email address. Ridiculous on it's own, but we had inventory in Amazons warehouses left, worth thousands of euros. What would have happened with that? Destroyed without compensation is my best guess. Best to try to email jeff@amazon.com and be polite and succinct with your issue and desired outcome. Even perhaps mention that you were told to simply create a new account but that you doubt that this is the right approach. Hopefully someone from his team will respond. I believe Dave Clark (SVP of Ops) is also on Twitter so you could try to reach out to him and see if he can direct you to the right person. Best of luck, hope you resolve the issue. But that really sucks, hope you can resolve this! I had exactly that happen with the Apple App Review squad. I managed to somehow offend a mid-level manager type and she purposefully kept moving the bar to get our app through review. "Did I say you need one of those? I meant one or two. You need two." I had an old contact there that was way up the food chain and he contacted her boss on my behalf -- who called and apologized and took the idiot woman off the case. If I didn't have that contact, we would have been at the mercy of some worthless drone who wanted to flex her muscles. Big tech absolutely should be broken up. There is no such thing as Amazon -- well, there's Amazon the monopoly, but the Amazon you deal with is one of a 100 rent-seeking fiefdoms staffed with people who got picked last in school. Collectively they do much more harm than good. (And that's ignoring the more pressing problem of political bias and censorship.) Feel free to go work as a reviewer at amazon/apple if you feel like you can improve the process. I'm sure you'll enjoy getting 20% of your current salary + being treated like an animal by basically everyone. It's hard work but there's really nothing else to say. Every other presence should be considered as a disposable inbound funnel. Instagram or Twitter deleted you? Start a new account and link back to your website again. It is always tempting to sink time into the platforms as well to increase volume even if it is a risk. Do you realize how hard it is to gain people's attention without being on one of the major platforms? How do you get people to come to your website, to trust your service and give you their credit card details? How do you accept payments? You have to use something like PayPal or Stripe, also platforms which can ban you for any (or no) reason. The economics are unworkable, and platforms are unavoidable. This is our new reality. There are several ecommerce website aggregators and search engines, where you can hook up your website (export product list via XML) and promote your products. You don't need to handle ccard info at all. You can use direct bank-bank money transfer, or use post office to get you the money from the customer on delivery. Post office is regulated and can't refuse you service. > You have to use something like PayPal or Stripe No you don't. There are many other options, individual banks and other third parties offer payment gateways (where you can accept credit cards). I know about at least 6 common ones, and I'm sure there are more. Not US. Economics of this clearly work well enough. It's so weird. I live in a country that's 30x smaller population than US, and we seemingly have more ways (that are workable and widely used), to help sellers sell their stuff in an independent way, deliver it, and accept payments for it, without being dependent on semi-monopolistic unregulated third parties like PayPal or Amazon. The Oatmeal sums this up very well. Especially since I read this article about commingling (you need to register (free) to read): https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/03/20/1553085361000/Amazon-... They are now dangerously close to be a monopoly AND a monopsony in way too many markets. They just don't need to care anymore and it shows. Amazon is really bad for the US economy. More so than Walmart I once had an issue that Amazon's customer service wouldn't address. I emailed jeff@amazon.com and had a response within a week, with a full resolution to the matter. Worth a shot? To anyone questioning why breaking up big tech is important, just imagine doing nothing wrong an receiving a form email like this in regards to your livelihood: https://i.imgur.com/gWewbd1.png Good luck. https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/19/18140799/amazon-marketpl... I would echo the statement to put up your own store, hosted on your own domain, and to stop relying on third party suppliers that are not interested in your well being. (but i have no personal experience) i have seen YouTubers echo this statement in regards to ads disappearing, and i have seen amazon wipe companies out with these idiotic issues. i wish you the best, and i love your product design/idea! That said, I think this approach is best combined with voting for and supporting candidates and social movements which will break up big tech and/or socialize their assets. I know it sounds stupid but it worked for me. I had a $$$ of affiliate payment pending with them and the CS staff dilly-dallied the payment - to my Indian account - for more than 10 months. I emailed, Jeff intervened, deputed his secretary on my case. He, in turn, got me in touch with India manager.
The Indian manager bent over backwards and was extremely apologetic for the trouble I had to face and sent the amount quickly. He ended the last call saying for any kind of trouble with Amazon I can contact him. Just an idea: you mentioned that you had a successful Kickstarter in 2014. If you still have the list of backers, and their emails, this is a good opportunity to start an email list, and tell your story to them. The primary goal will be to tell them why you're not on Amazon, and on IG, and how it happened. It is an opportunity to also direct them to your new selling channel (or tell them that you are working on one). You can also appeal to your customer to lend your their support (I don't know how, but it is a good opportunity to figure out how that support could look like). I'm not affiliated with them, just a happy customer, but a service like Shopify will enable you to run your own store without a technological background or server administration and it doesn't prevent you from also selling via external channels like Amazon, eBay or others. The difference is that your primary store, or in the worst case your domain, will be there even if Amazon & Co. decide to stop selling your products over night.111 comments
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