This is great—as an Inbox user I see a lot of potential here. Quick thoughts:
- Any support you can give to existing plugins that support Google would be great. Much as I like the fact that templates are built into this, I really love the plugin Gorgias Templates, for example (partly due to the fact those plugins can be used anywhere), and having it available would be awesome.
- I'd love it to be possible that there was no background at all, or at least something flat.
- Would like to be able to set a different default font in the compose menu. Sans-serif is fine, I just want it to be able to decide on Helvetica or Courier New.
- Any ability to change the keyboard shortcuts would be great. The fact that they're not the same as Inbox/Gmail makes it hard to immediately jump in and use.
I'm sure I'll have more, but I just wanted to tell you this really makes me happy to see!
First off thank you soo so much for your amazing feedback!
Secondly, WOW.
Supporting plugins is such a spectacular idea! It would open up a world of possibilities! Would they be Chrome plugins or plugins for things like Salesforce, Teamwork, GitHub, Slack etc?
I will add in something to remove the background entirely and also allow selection of a flat/gradient/colour asap.
Custom fonts/keyboard shortcuts are such fantastic ideas too man!
My God you are a treasure trove. Godspeed!
PS: If you add your suggestions to our feature requests board it will ensure they are created quickly as others will be able to upvote on ideas!
https://www.darwinmail.app/feedback.php
Hey, glad you liked my ideas! I'm thinking Chrome/Firefox plugins in particular. I think you have some built-in functionality that covers some of the use cases but I think that one of the great things about Inbox was that it was largely compatible with existing Gmail plugins.
Anyway, best of luck! I'll be keeping an eye on this.
My girlfriend (who works at Google!) really misses Inbox and specifically the "stacks" feature (whatever that was -- I was not a user myself). She'd easily pay for premium for that specific feature. Apparently it's a common complaint in her group. I didn't see this on your list: is it planned?
That's perfect feedback! Straight from the heart of Google :D
ha ha. I think you are referring to bundles? That is most certainly a must as so many people have requested it today.
First of all congratulations. It looks like a nice app and productivity booster for GMail.
I just wanted to point that e-mail undo is present is in standard GMail. The feature started as a lab feature and added into standard muster of features sometimes later.
This makes selling e-mail undo in the professional plan a bit of a contradiction IMHO.
Other than that, everything looks good, congrats again. :)
I'm unfortunately a little hesitant to give a new and unproven player access to all my email, so I'm a bit hesitant to try it right now - sorry.
That said, I think the pricing is reasonable. I might suggest a free trial of the pro features for people who e.g. already enter their credit card details (to lower the barrier of converting to a paid account later), or who refer others.
One thing that I'd also like the landing page to clarify: where are reminders stored? Email of course is still on Google's servers, but given that reminders are not present in Gmail, that's an open question.
No problem at all. It's your Gmail account and you have the right to do with it whatever you want.
In time and after much improvements I hope to earn your trust.
A free trial is a good idea. I will set that up soon.
Also, a referral scheme has been suggested and is something I would love to work on soon too.
I am in the process of upgrading the FAQs and will add a section for where the reminders are stored. It's quite simple really, they are stored in your browsers local storage.
Calling the monthly and yearly pricing different tiers is confusing and not customary. I would just call it Pro and then say "$2/month (yearly, or 3$/month monthly)" or something like that. Check out some other SaaS pricing pages on how they do it :-)
If you want to simplify, you can also just offer the monthly billing option for now, as the $1 difference is not that big anyways and it's less confusing for folks (in general, the less decisions a user needs to make before purchasing the higher the conversion rate).
Good luck, I'll keep on eye on it. For me, a mobile app is a must to switch.
You are so right. Spot on in fact. Thank you for the tip.
I will change that asap. It's too confusing.
Sorry, but there should be a difference of $22 to purchase the yearly plan (which saves $11 - oh I see you meant to type $11 not $1). Yes, perhaps it's not that much of a difference, but it can add up :)
As regards the mobile app, Darwin Mail is currently mobile responsive to it looks and works great on your tablet or mobile. I know it's not the same though. May I ask, why do you prefer a native app over a responsive web app?
I completely get you. Thanks for the follow-up.
Mobile apps are certainly on my todo list. And thanks for adding your use cases to help me understand :)
1. I understand that the product can only become great if each & every suggestion is listened to, so thank you!
2. DarwinMail has a public roadmap, public changelog, and open lines of communication.
3. The primary focus of Darwin Mail is to help you be productive. Each and every change is made for that sole reason.
4. We have a public roadmap, public changelog, and open lines of communication.
5. The primary focus of Darwin Mail is to help you be productive. Each and every change is made for that sole reason.
They're 5 reasons why I believe DarwinMail is worth the try!
Just a few points which I think are relevant:
1. We will not sell your data, abuse our power or ignore your requests...
2. Because we respect your privacy.
3. We understand that the product can only become great if each & every suggestion is listened to.
4. We have a public roadmap, public changelog, and open lines of communication.
5. The primary focus of Darwin Mail is to help you be productive. Each and every change is made for that sole reason.
Oh man this looks great, thanks Joey! I just made a couple of feature requests, Bundles and Mass Archive. But the whole thing looks and feels great, I'm super excited about it. Let me know when you support multiple accounts and I'll happily drop you some cash (for silly reasons I have a few accounts, and i'm not eager to juggle multiple clients).
Maybe it's obvious to others but I didn't really know what you were selling until the first FAQ. Maybe you need a strapline something like "a new way to work with your Google Mail". I thought it was perhaps an independent MUA app (and assumed it was going to be Mac only, because of the name).
When I first arrived on the page I clicked your first call to action button, which takes one to a Google login, but backed out because I hadn't a clue at that point what it was.
Looks like "a front-end to gmail using Google's API", I guess you need to put that in non-tech speak.
I love this idea. Thank you.
Words do fail us sometimes. However, I do like what you're saying. The subtitle should be clearer.
I will think about it, to try and come up with the best description I can - I'm open to more suggestions though!
Thank you again for yours.
Beautiful interface. Seriously. This type of design opens me up to Material as Ive been pretty adverse to it until now. Material with rounded edges and transparency. Looks clean.
What tech did you use on the frontend? Im on ipad so I cant inspect your dom ️
Looks cool! Any plans for pinning and bundling/one click archiving entire bundles? Those two features are what I miss most since getting kicked off Inbox.
You can actually already Pin in DarwinMail :) There's a lever on the right of the search bar (from your mail inbox). Click that to show all your Pinned emails.
You can also hover over any mail to show its actions. The Pin is second from the left. Next to the star ;)
as for bundling/and one-click archiving bundles.. that's been requested a few times today and I will be working on it asap.
https://www.darwinmail.app/feedback.php
If you have any more requests let me know or post them at the above link!
Looks nice but currently does no more than I can already achieve with a new skin on Gmail. (I'm using http://flowapps.co/inboxtheme/ )
I know it's been mentioned elsewhere but Inbox Bundles are pretty much the main reason Inbox was a superior client.
Since being forced back to Gmail it's the only thing I've missed and I've had to revert back to old email discipline (daily clearouts and ruthless unsubscribing) to get over it's loss.
That's a fair point. I thought of that too when posting.
I believe you need to consider both angles:
- How to build a product people love based on what they want
- How to build a product that is sustainable & interesting based on what you think should be built
It's a difficult thing to get right. I'm definitely going to try.
BUNDLES are LIVE on DarwinMail
You asked for it and you got it!
Some have called bundles 'The next evolution of email'.
With DarwinMail, now you can use them too.
https://www.darwinmail.app
Quick bug report for you. If you have a category name with a '/' in it, jquery errors out due to $('#sideBar #' + prettyLabelName) having a / in it, which makes it think it's a selector. If you change all instances of $('#sideBar #' + prettyLabelName) to $('#sideBar #' + $.escapeSelector(prettyLabelName)), it should rectify that. As it stands now, if you have a category with a / in it the site is unusable; and the same would probably be true if you had a category starting with a . or #.
The message in the thread in question doesn't have a from attribute.
--
Finally, using ctrl+c (to copy) in an email you're composing will open a new composition window. Might be best to disable that in an active text input or if text is selected.
Edit: Also, a 'mark all as done' button like Inbox had would be greatly appreciated.
Very nice--I was hoping someone would build something like this!
One small thing I noticed: I always kept the menu pane open in Inbox. When I open it in Darwin and refresh, the menu pane is closed again rather than persisted.
I tried to test it, but I literally don't feel comfortable giving somebody full access to my email. I don't know your practices, security protocols, etc.
I'd feel way more comfortable if this would be an app or a browser add-on that would handle everything locally, without sharing the access token with your servers.
The better question here is: how many websites (with their own servers!) did you give full access to your email inbox?
I didn't give it out to anybody else that Google. Google I trust implicitly because they host the server, so the email is already read by them before reaching the interface. Thunderbird stores email locally doesn't need to push it out. I wouldn't give Facebook ever access to my email account.
Why should I give Darwin access AS A WEBSITE when it's not clear to me that they NEED to run their SERVER? If the interaction is done through JS entirely and the whole thing runs in the browser between me and Google, they can easily pack it as an extension.
Part 1:
I understand your worry. It's perfectly within the realm of reason. Please allow me to help alleviate your worries. The following are a list of the permissions DarwinMail requests of you.
PS: WE NEVER store any email data that belongs to you. Google has verified our compliance via a lengthy audit!
Manage mailbox labels — this allows DarwinMail to add and remove labels (inbox, snoozed, spam, etc) to your emails.
Manage your sensitive mail settings — this allows DarwinMail to update settings such as your forwarding address and aliases.
Manage you basic mail settings — this allows DarwinMail to update settings such as your signature and out of office reply.
View and modify but not delete your email — this allows DarwinMail to create your email (when you use the compose functionality), modify you email, and send your email (when you click the send button). This also allows you to update and save drafts.
Please feel free to check out the following official documentation from Google for further reading.
Thanks for the pointers. I understand well how the OAuth scopes work. What I don't understand is - if the server doesn't handle my email, why does this need to be hosted on a server? Package it as a browser extension and this way I can be sure that my email is not leaked.
Right now, I need to look into the implications of running DarwinMail as a browser extension would be. To be sure your security would be maintained, the core functionality is not lost and DarwinMail remains usable (landing page with about, features, testimonials, pricing etc).
So the actual problem is that it seems to you you that one can't SELL a product as a browser extension. However Grammarly is a beautiful showcase of an actual product as an extension, with payment and everything you need (landing, testimonials, upsells, etc).
perhaps not on mobile chrome (it's been a while since I've tried) but certainly on mobile firefox and mobile samsung (which is chrome rebadged).
I'd not say - go and build this as an extension on mobile; but if you have the code built to run as an extension, it should be fairly quick to repackage it as a standalone mobile app, i.e. get a dedicated instance of the browser that runs your app).
Another successful example of this model is LastPass - they deliver the functionality via browser extensions and mobile apps, but they handle all the payment and marketing and CRM via their own product site.
DarwinMail basically sits on top of Google's servers and displays the data in the same manner (and in time using the exact same features + more) as Inbox did.
Darwin does not store any of your email data whatsoever. In fact, if it did, Google would have asked me to audit the tool - but they instead granted me Google verification. It took them almost a month to break down DarwinMail and make sure it did not store any user email data.
If you have any questions on the verification process, please ask me! Or look here at the official Google documentation.
Part 3: How does DarwimMail actually work? So what happens exactly is:
The user logs into DarwinMail.app,
DarwinMail makes a login request to Google's servers,
Google logs the user in,
DarwinMail asks for the users emails at which point this data is rendered in the user's browser.
None of this email data is stored on DarwinMail's servers. There is no need! Think of all the space it would take up and the time that would be spent retrieving the data.
Google's API & servers do the heavy lifting. DarwinMail allows you to view your emails just like Inbox, and hopefully provides (or will soon provide) the same kind of functionality :)
Is your product open source? Because for this kind of thing it's really hard to trust unless it's open and self-hostable.
Even if you say you don't need to store emails, there is still a chance of leaks via logging systems or simply programmer errors, or some caching layer. It's likely your security protocols aren't as robust as Google's. (You mention "https" as the primary reason this is secure. Much wow.)
Given the importance of email there is no way I could trust another closed system with my email. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, I also want to see alternative email frontends because gmail isn't cutting it.
Yes, if you make it Open Source and possible to self-host it goes from DOA to definitely possible. Would have to explore more, like how it's written, the community around it, etc... before I really commit.
Hopefully you can still make a living. I suspect "open source + commercially hosted" is a good model for something like this?
You are asking him to do a ton of work and commit to never charging you for anything on the off chance that you might condescend to use his software. It seems like it would be easier for you to just not evaluate new mail clients.
I'm just suggesting that a service that touches email would benefit from being easier to trust. I never said he should commit to never making money or anything close to that. Like you literally invented that.
In fact I suggested he look into the open source + hosted business model. Ghost seems to be doing alright with it:
> It seems like it would be easier for you to just not evaluate new mail clients.
There are plenty of OSS mail clients. I was just looking at RoundCube the other day. It's actually pretty slick as far as traditional email clients go.
You said “Yes, if you make it Open Source and possible to self-host it goes from DOA to definitely possible.[...]
Hopefully you can still make a living. I suspect "open source + commercially hosted" is a good model for something like this?”
That means that you would not consider using by it unless you could use it for free, presuming you wouldn’t qualify for a commercial license. I only summarized what you said.
I see the merits of open sourcing DarwinMail.
It would open up the platform to develop on it from people all over the world. They would fix bugs for themselves and others and perhaps write mini-features.
However, if I open source this code, I may never be able to make any profit on this tool I have spent so much time building :( How will I be able to pay my bills?
That's why I mentioned the OSS + hosted version. It would allow to be more open while still making money on the hosted version. Those who are very concerned about privacy can self-host, and those who think self-hosting is too hard (that's many people) can pay to use your hosted version.
Saying that none of the "email data" is stored on your servers is a common way mail clients deflect from the real truth that people are interested in. Our email data traverses through your servers and is stored in memory is it not?
Additionally you have our access tokens correct? With those you have effective access to all of our email data. They are effectively a password. Worse actually since they bypass 2FA. If you leak those on accident or decide to use one from your home PC, you have access to all of our email data.
The statement "None of this email data is stored on DarwinMail's servers" remains technically true, but does not address the real scope security issue most users are worried about.
DarwinMail looks amazing and I'd love to use it, but until these questions above are answered or obviated via open-sourcing it, I don't think many users will be comfortable. My company admin policy explicitly denies your app for these reasons by the way:
"Error: admin_policy_enforced
Access to your account data is restricted by policies within your organization. Please contact administrator for more information."
Hello, and thank you for your comment and for explaining how you feel.
What you have said is true but I'm not sure you fully understand how DarwinMail works.
I hope to alleviate your concerns somewhat by explaining.
DarwinMail does request and use your individual access tokens from Googles API servers in order to retrieve your emails.
All the displaying is done on your browser. Any action you take for your emails is done on your browser. Any email you type and send it handled in your browser.
Sure, DarwinMail is hosted on a server (Linode) but that's just to store the DarwinMail website on the internet so you can visit it.
Even without open sourcing the code, you can still see all of the code that does the above managing of your emails in your own browser! Just right click -> Inspect -> Open up the sources tab and you can see it all! It's not hidden!
In fact, search for Sarge's posts on this thread... that gentleman was looking through the code, reporting bugs to me and telling me how to fix them!
Furthermore, Linode does not take security lightly and are trusted by many many companies and individuals. See for yourself:
https://www.linode.com/security
I think there is at least one variant of the OAuth2 flow that doesn't require the use of servers to complete the authorization. I know Implicit Grant is broken in some ways, but Google supports it: https://developers.google.com/identity/protocols/OAuth2UserA...
You also say this has been audited by Google. Mind if I ask under which program, and how did you get Google to audit it?
Thank you very much for your input here. You are 100% correct. It is the same implementation that DarwinMail uses.
--
This document explains how to implement OAuth 2.0 authorization to access Google APIs from a JavaScript web application. OAuth 2.0 allows users to share specific data with an application while keeping their usernames, passwords, and other information private. For example, an application can use OAuth 2.0 to obtain permission from users to store files in their Google Drives.
This OAuth 2.0 flow is called the implicit grant flow. It is designed for applications that access APIs only while the user is present at the application. These applications are not able to store confidential information.
In this flow, your app opens a Google URL that uses query parameters to identify your app and the type of API access that the app requires. You can open the URL in the current browser window or a popup. The user can authenticate with Google and grant the requested permissions. Google then redirects the user back to your app. The redirect includes an access token, which your app verifies and then uses to make API requests.
--
DarwinMail basically sits on top of Google's servers and displays the data in the same manner (and in time using the exact same features + more) as Inbox did.
Darwin does not store any of your email data whatsoever. In fact, if it did, Google would have asked me to audit the tool - but they instead granted me Google verification. It took them almost a month to break down DarwinMail and make sure it did not store any user email data.
Sorry, I am not opening a trello account to report bugs. I am debugging your app for free, just asking not to have so sign yet another one-sided term of service doc. I also have problems with content security policy, see below:
Content Security Policy: Ignoring “http:” within script-src: ‘strict-dynamic’ specified
Content Security Policy: The page’s settings observed the loading of a resource at inline (“script-src”). A CSP report is being sent. Source: try{(function overrideDefaultMethods(r, g, b, a, scriptId, storedObjectPrefix) {
var scriptNode = document.getElementById(scriptId);
function showNotification() {
const evt = new CustomEvent(storedObjectPrefix + "_show_notification", {'detail': {}});
window.dispatchEvent(evt);
}
BUNDLES are LIVE on DarwinMail.
You asked for it and you got it!
Some have called bundles 'The next evolution of email'.
With DarwinMail, now you can use them too.
https://www.darwinmail.app
I probably would have been all for this a few weeks ago. but since trying the Gmail app, all I miss is bundles and the sleek mobile app. this has neither of those.
also, is it me, or are you selling the same thing for $3 and for $25?
Yeah, I was so busy developing at that stage I really didn't want to release until DarwinMail had more features.
Bundles are on the todo list
You are so right about the pricing though. It's too confusing. I will change that asap as they are the same plan, it's just that the yearly plan works out cheaper.
You don't mention pinning, do you support that/is it on the todo list? I notice you have the switch that Inbox used for toggling pinned only, what does that do here?
Thanks for your feedback!
You can actually already Pin in DarwinMail :) You've already seen the lever on the right of the search bar. Click that to show all your Pinned emails.
You can also hover over any mail to show its actions. The Pin is second from the left. Next to the star ;)
I will, however, add Pinning to the feature spotlights on the homepage!
Should probably mention that next you your statement about privacy. I would consider an email service that has Google analytics on it not terribly private
It is true that using Google Analytics does sound quite overt.
The question remains, how else can I see where my users are visiting from, what browsers & mobile devices are they using so that I may better tailor DarwinMail?
Related to this question:
Does Darwin block remote images from loading automatically? I find this is increasingly hard to find (Geary Mail comes to mind) and it's surprising to me.
We block any and all code scripts/styles from executing outside of emails.
We don't block images though - if we did then the emails you could usually receive with images will feel plain.. won't it? If I understand you correctly?
Allowing remote images to load allows for a tracking signal to be sent from the email client. Blocking images allows the user to choose whether that signal is sent.
Ohh I see.
Like a Facebook Pixels tracking image.
No, I don't think that's blocked. Then again, it's not blocked in most email clients, perhaps it's difficult to accomplish.
Nonetheless, I've added it to the list of upcoming features as I believe it's worth a shot!
I believe there are a couple of approaches to this with varying amount of data storage, You can download all images immediately as the email is received (thus preventing image tracking as every image would then be clicked immediately) or have the ability to block all images and selectively turn them on when necessary (unless the image is inline etc).
Cool - not saying you have to do it like them, but the most popular option there is to block all images globally but allow the person to click a button to unblock images for that specific email, which then enables a dialogue to "always unblock images from this sender."
I like that workflow; may be something to consider. I block all images but allow images from known senders, like my parents or co-workers.
I haven’t seen an email with images in years because I always use clients which allow disabling auto-loading.
If I get an email with images it’s usually an email I didn’t want and I block the sender shortly thereafter. Real people don’t tend to send emails with images that are important for understanding the textual content.
That is correct.
However, would you think again if a little pop-up reminder told you just before you exited the app?
To be fair though, I keep my email tab opened all day. I never close it!
To be productive on GMail, I have tons of filters, labels, and use the inbox as my "todo" pile. Once something is done, its filed into is respective label. However, since I have nested labels to divide organizations, platforms, and classes by semester, Darwin doesn't organize them well. Here is a side by side comparison to GMail - https://imgur.com/a/W6IqUrW
I really like text-only dense interfaces such as what Sourcehut.org is doing with Git repos.
I would love to see this type of minimal interface for email - while others may like background images and such, I prefer text-only sense UI with minimal bloat for speed!
Seriously though, DarwinMail is impressive! Could you tell us if custom domains are supported?
That's quite fascinating! Thank you for the interesting perspective :)
I will mock up some minimal interface designs. Perhaps a mail distraction free mode (we currently support a distraction-free mode for typing emails). This could be very cool :D
Thank you so much! They're not (I don't think ha!). Could you tell me more about how a custom domain would work with DarwinMail?
You are so right about the pricing. It's too confusing. I will change that asap as they are the same plan, it's just that the yearly plan works out cheaper :)
No problem, sometimes the best way to market something is to be explicit about meaning instead of trying to sound fancy and cool. Great web page and product otherwise btw! I hope you can gain enough traction to invest in more than just gmail.
I'm desperate for a Gmail replacement that uses the Gmail API. I'll give this a try because I didn't find any other one and the canonical Gmail web client is utterly broken, too heavy, too slow.
I don't want any enhancements, just basic email threads. Does anyone have a recommendation?
That's quite fascinating! Thank you for the interesting perspective :)
I will mock up some minimal interface designs. Perhaps a mail distraction free mode (we currently support a distraction-free mode for typing emails). This could be very cool :D
My privacy is important, that's why I'm not using Gmail. Great that you take privacy serious, but building a service that only works with Gmail doesn't really help with privacy.
Some of our features such as templates, dark mode, custom backgrounds are built on top of DarwinMail - and do not interact with Google or Gmails APIs whatsoever.
Most of DarwinMail works via the Gmail API, but not all :)
Edit: And the majority of the feature requests on this thread will not interact with Gmail either once they are created. So Google cannot track as much usage statistics as they would have otherwise.
Google cannot demand I give them any of this information. To be honest, I will not even have most of it. It will all happen on your browser.
Opening an email with a calendar event in it downloads a file with some meta data. I think this is a bug. I opened a mail from meetup dot com and it downloaded a file multiple times.
I had excellent experience with Sentry (https://sentry.io/welcome/) to capture errors that happen on the client side in production. You need to be careful with the sensitive data that gets sent to Sentry, but it's a good tool.
Not being affiliated with them in any way, just a tool I find helpful.
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[ 1.1 ms ] story [ 249 ms ] thread—
Darwin Mail aims to help you be your most productive when dealing with emails & todos.
Problem Inbox by Google was one of the best products they ever made. And then they shut it down.
Solution Introducing Darwin Mail, which aims to replace and become better than Google Inbox ever was.
Features - Snoozing, Reminders, Dark Mode, Undo Send, Custom Backgrounds, Templates, & much more according to your requests! https://www.darwinmail.app/feedback.php https://twitter.com/joeytawadrous
Darwin Mail will evolve to become great over time, thanks to its users, and thanks to you.
You're welcome to join me on this journey ️
- Any support you can give to existing plugins that support Google would be great. Much as I like the fact that templates are built into this, I really love the plugin Gorgias Templates, for example (partly due to the fact those plugins can be used anywhere), and having it available would be awesome.
- I'd love it to be possible that there was no background at all, or at least something flat.
- Would like to be able to set a different default font in the compose menu. Sans-serif is fine, I just want it to be able to decide on Helvetica or Courier New.
- Any ability to change the keyboard shortcuts would be great. The fact that they're not the same as Inbox/Gmail makes it hard to immediately jump in and use.
I'm sure I'll have more, but I just wanted to tell you this really makes me happy to see!
I will add in something to remove the background entirely and also allow selection of a flat/gradient/colour asap.
Custom fonts/keyboard shortcuts are such fantastic ideas too man!
My God you are a treasure trove. Godspeed!
PS: If you add your suggestions to our feature requests board it will ensure they are created quickly as others will be able to upvote on ideas! https://www.darwinmail.app/feedback.php
Anyway, best of luck! I'll be keeping an eye on this.
I will Roger that :) Chrome and Firefox plugins open up such a world of possibilities :)
Thank you for the suggestion!
Feel free to follow me to keep up to date! https://twitter.com/joeytawadrous
Thank you for your comment. It made me smile! :)
https://www.darwinmail.app
I just wanted to point that e-mail undo is present is in standard GMail. The feature started as a lab feature and added into standard muster of features sometimes later.
This makes selling e-mail undo in the professional plan a bit of a contradiction IMHO.
Other than that, everything looks good, congrats again. :)
Thank you so much for the positive vibes :)
Thanks for helping a fellow hacker out ;)
Do you think the price point is fair?
That said, I think the pricing is reasonable. I might suggest a free trial of the pro features for people who e.g. already enter their credit card details (to lower the barrier of converting to a paid account later), or who refer others.
One thing that I'd also like the landing page to clarify: where are reminders stored? Email of course is still on Google's servers, but given that reminders are not present in Gmail, that's an open question.
In time and after much improvements I hope to earn your trust.
A free trial is a good idea. I will set that up soon.
Also, a referral scheme has been suggested and is something I would love to work on soon too.
I am in the process of upgrading the FAQs and will add a section for where the reminders are stored. It's quite simple really, they are stored in your browsers local storage.
You are exactly right there! It's about 30% cheaper to purchase the yearly plan and it has all of the same features.
https://www.darwinmail.app/#pricing
Do you think there is a need for two plan? (with one of better value like on DarwinMail)
or
Maybe two different tiers with different features and pricing?
What are your thoughts?
If you want to simplify, you can also just offer the monthly billing option for now, as the $1 difference is not that big anyways and it's less confusing for folks (in general, the less decisions a user needs to make before purchasing the higher the conversion rate).
Good luck, I'll keep on eye on it. For me, a mobile app is a must to switch.
I will change that asap. It's too confusing.
Sorry, but there should be a difference of $22 to purchase the yearly plan (which saves $11 - oh I see you meant to type $11 not $1). Yes, perhaps it's not that much of a difference, but it can add up :)
As regards the mobile app, Darwin Mail is currently mobile responsive to it looks and works great on your tablet or mobile. I know it's not the same though. May I ask, why do you prefer a native app over a responsive web app?
Personally: notifications with quick actions, and face ID authentication are both benefits of a native app.
I personally just think mobile apps run smoother and faster than mobile websites, plus in this case notifications are key for me.
For services or products that I ue at least on a weekly basis, I always prefer an app than a website. But maybe that's just me :-)
Noted. And noted. I will first stabilize the web version and then move onto the apps :)
It’s essentially a skin which sits on top of regular Gmail.
Whilst Darwin Mail may respect your privacy it still requires a Google account.
What benefit does this provide that regular Gmail doesn’t?
3. The primary focus of Darwin Mail is to help you be productive. Each and every change is made for that sole reason.
4. We have a public roadmap, public changelog, and open lines of communication.
5. The primary focus of Darwin Mail is to help you be productive. Each and every change is made for that sole reason.
They're 5 reasons why I believe DarwinMail is worth the try!
Also, bundles are definitely on the todo list.
http://localhost:8888/Darwin/feedback.php
Just a few points which I think are relevant: 1. We will not sell your data, abuse our power or ignore your requests... 2. Because we respect your privacy. 3. We understand that the product can only become great if each & every suggestion is listened to. 4. We have a public roadmap, public changelog, and open lines of communication. 5. The primary focus of Darwin Mail is to help you be productive. Each and every change is made for that sole reason.
You can also check out our FAQs at the bottom of https://www.darwinmail.app
Or
Our privacy policy at https://www.darwinmail.app/privacy.php
I've reviewed them.. and let me just say... YES!
YES, I will add mass archive functionality. YES, I will work on bundles for Darwin Mail. YES, multiple accounts are on the horizon.
I'm so happy you like DarwinMail. I completely understand your use case, I can relate to you, my man.
I'm open to any and all suggestions for features/improvements! https://www.darwinmail.app/feedback.php
https://www.darwinmail.app
When I first arrived on the page I clicked your first call to action button, which takes one to a Google login, but backed out because I hadn't a clue at that point what it was.
Looks like "a front-end to gmail using Google's API", I guess you need to put that in non-tech speak.
I've thought about what you said (albeit very quickly) and made changes to the homepage https://www.darwinmail.app/index.php
The homepage subtitle: "Your Google Inbox replacement: reach new levels of productivity."
And a below the hero image: "An evolutionary way to work with your emails." - I think I can expand on this one.. any ideas?
Not necessarily bad. I'm excited to see how this diverges again.
And, by analogy, theatre according to this, https://foxxr.com/the-epic-story-of-the-hero-image/amp/.
I’m not sure what the right words are, but it definitely needs to be clearer that it enhances Gmail, not replaces it.
“Your Google Inbox replacement: Enhancing Gmail to reach new levels of productivity.” or something like that?
I'm not going to forget this description.
It's so catchy!
I've updated the homepage! https://www.darwinmail.app
Thank you, sir!
Darwin Mail: Gmail Evolved
Darwin Mail is a better interface to the gmail account you already have:
- Restores Google Inbox features
- ....
Aside, do you need to add any trademark notices?
Do you mean trademark notices with Google?
It was Google themselves who reviewed DarwinMail :)
They took their time too, let me tell you!
What tech did you use on the frontend? Im on ipad so I cant inspect your dom ️
It's vanilla JS! Enhanced with libraries such as jQuery, Materialize, XSS, bootstrap, moment, less etc :)
Does she look well on the iPad? ;)
Should I add a feature spotlight for Pinning to the homepage though? I don't think it's clear that Darwin Mail supports Pinning as of now!
Thank you so much for your feedback :) This kind of feedback is what makes products great!
However, I'm going to merge that with DarwinMail's Trello board soon and make the whole thing public :)
I will also allow upvoting, comments and user-created feedback and suggestions!
You can actually already Pin in DarwinMail :) There's a lever on the right of the search bar (from your mail inbox). Click that to show all your Pinned emails.
You can also hover over any mail to show its actions. The Pin is second from the left. Next to the star ;)
as for bundling/and one-click archiving bundles.. that's been requested a few times today and I will be working on it asap. https://www.darwinmail.app/feedback.php
If you have any more requests let me know or post them at the above link!
https://www.darwinmail.app
I know it's been mentioned elsewhere but Inbox Bundles are pretty much the main reason Inbox was a superior client.
Since being forced back to Gmail it's the only thing I've missed and I've had to revert back to old email discipline (daily clearouts and ruthless unsubscribing) to get over it's loss.
2. DarwinMail has a public roadmap, public changelog, and open lines of communication.
3. The primary focus of Darwin Mail is to help you be productive. Each and every change is made for that sole reason.
They're 3 reasons why I believe DarwinMail is worth the try!
Also, bundles are definitely on the todo list.
I also genuinely want to know how DarwinMail can help with "daily clearouts and ruthless unsubscribing"?
I've actually heard strong arguments for the opposite. Your vision is what counts. People often don't know what they want until you show them.
I believe you need to consider both angles: - How to build a product people love based on what they want - How to build a product that is sustainable & interesting based on what you think should be built
It's a difficult thing to get right. I'm definitely going to try.
I also love that you were straight in with the exact fix! Thanks, Sarge!
PS: I've made that change and it's live on https://www.darwinmail.app (threadAPI & labelsAPI) ;)
If you have any more, let me know!
Here's some more:
You can open any number of the menu options and the previous ones don't close. https://i.imgur.com/NxKVk6W.png
Additionally, there doesn't appear to be an exit icon on any of them, though escape works.
--
Accessing my spam folder freezes the app and results in the following stack trace: https://i.imgur.com/HkNbH67.png
The message in the thread in question doesn't have a from attribute.
--
Finally, using ctrl+c (to copy) in an email you're composing will open a new composition window. Might be best to disable that in an active text input or if text is selected.
Edit: Also, a 'mark all as done' button like Inbox had would be greatly appreciated.
This is the kind of feedback I really really love.
You took your time writing this. You went into perfect detail. You are really really helping, Sarge, thank you a million times over.
This is amazing. Thank you.
I have noted everything you said and will work on those in the coming days.
Thank you so so much.
It's joeytawadrous at gmail dot com
My email is always open to you! :D Thanks again for all your help!
Do you have any plans to add similar bundling functionality?
Just saw you said you do intend to support it! Let me know when this is done and you can have all of my money :D
People are adding requests to our feedback board! So head on down, upvote the bundles' idea & maybe even follow me on Twitter to be in the know!
https://www.darwinmail.app/feedback.php
https://www.darwinmail.app
One small thing I noticed: I always kept the menu pane open in Inbox. When I open it in Darwin and refresh, the menu pane is closed again rather than persisted.
Is it good enough to use for now though?
I'd feel way more comfortable if this would be an app or a browser add-on that would handle everything locally, without sharing the access token with your servers.
Because each of the participants has only a fraction of your e-mails.
However, I won't be giving any third parties access to DarwinMail ;)
I didn't give it out to anybody else that Google. Google I trust implicitly because they host the server, so the email is already read by them before reaching the interface. Thunderbird stores email locally doesn't need to push it out. I wouldn't give Facebook ever access to my email account.
Why should I give Darwin access AS A WEBSITE when it's not clear to me that they NEED to run their SERVER? If the interaction is done through JS entirely and the whole thing runs in the browser between me and Google, they can easily pack it as an extension.
PS: WE NEVER store any email data that belongs to you. Google has verified our compliance via a lengthy audit!
Manage mailbox labels — this allows DarwinMail to add and remove labels (inbox, snoozed, spam, etc) to your emails.
Manage your sensitive mail settings — this allows DarwinMail to update settings such as your forwarding address and aliases.
Manage you basic mail settings — this allows DarwinMail to update settings such as your signature and out of office reply.
View and modify but not delete your email — this allows DarwinMail to create your email (when you use the compose functionality), modify you email, and send your email (when you click the send button). This also allows you to update and save drafts.
Please feel free to check out the following official documentation from Google for further reading.
https://developers.google.com/gmail/api/auth/scopes
I like your point. It's fascinating.
Right now, I need to look into the implications of running DarwinMail as a browser extension would be. To be sure your security would be maintained, the core functionality is not lost and DarwinMail remains usable (landing page with about, features, testimonials, pricing etc).
Thank you for your suggestion!
I'd not say - go and build this as an extension on mobile; but if you have the code built to run as an extension, it should be fairly quick to repackage it as a standalone mobile app, i.e. get a dedicated instance of the browser that runs your app).
Another successful example of this model is LastPass - they deliver the functionality via browser extensions and mobile apps, but they handle all the payment and marketing and CRM via their own product site.
Thank you for the feedback!
What does that mean?
DarwinMail basically sits on top of Google's servers and displays the data in the same manner (and in time using the exact same features + more) as Inbox did.
Darwin does not store any of your email data whatsoever. In fact, if it did, Google would have asked me to audit the tool - but they instead granted me Google verification. It took them almost a month to break down DarwinMail and make sure it did not store any user email data.
If you have any questions on the verification process, please ask me! Or look here at the official Google documentation.
https://twitter.com/joeytawadrous https://support.google.com/cloud/answer/9110914
The user logs into DarwinMail.app, DarwinMail makes a login request to Google's servers, Google logs the user in, DarwinMail asks for the users emails at which point this data is rendered in the user's browser. None of this email data is stored on DarwinMail's servers. There is no need! Think of all the space it would take up and the time that would be spent retrieving the data.
Google's API & servers do the heavy lifting. DarwinMail allows you to view your emails just like Inbox, and hopefully provides (or will soon provide) the same kind of functionality :)
Even if you say you don't need to store emails, there is still a chance of leaks via logging systems or simply programmer errors, or some caching layer. It's likely your security protocols aren't as robust as Google's. (You mention "https" as the primary reason this is secure. Much wow.)
Given the importance of email there is no way I could trust another closed system with my email. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, I also want to see alternative email frontends because gmail isn't cutting it.
You make a very good point, and I see where you are coming from.
I personally have a hard time trusting other products with my data too. That's why I'm trying to be as transparent as possible with DarwinMail.
If I were to make the product open source, would you consider using it then?
Hopefully you can still make a living. I suspect "open source + commercially hosted" is a good model for something like this?
Thank you so much. I'm so happy that you understand as it can be difficult for a creator to explain such things :)
I really appreciate it!
In fact I suggested he look into the open source + hosted business model. Ghost seems to be doing alright with it:
https://blog.ghost.org/5/
> It seems like it would be easier for you to just not evaluate new mail clients.
There are plenty of OSS mail clients. I was just looking at RoundCube the other day. It's actually pretty slick as far as traditional email clients go.
https://roundcube.net/
I thank you :) I love receiving new 'outside of the box' ideas that will increase DarwinMail's appeal :)
That means that you would not consider using by it unless you could use it for free, presuming you wouldn’t qualify for a commercial license. I only summarized what you said.
Thank you for understanding :)
That's why I mentioned the OSS + hosted version. It would allow to be more open while still making money on the hosted version. Those who are very concerned about privacy can self-host, and those who think self-hosting is too hard (that's many people) can pay to use your hosted version.
See Ghost as a success story that works that way:
https://blog.ghost.org/5/
That's quite an interesting concept! It would alleviate users concerns :)
I like it!
Ghost has done very well in recent years. I will read up on this.
Open-sourcing and authenticating the client code would resolve this issue for me.
I will think about it :)
Additionally you have our access tokens correct? With those you have effective access to all of our email data. They are effectively a password. Worse actually since they bypass 2FA. If you leak those on accident or decide to use one from your home PC, you have access to all of our email data.
The statement "None of this email data is stored on DarwinMail's servers" remains technically true, but does not address the real scope security issue most users are worried about.
DarwinMail looks amazing and I'd love to use it, but until these questions above are answered or obviated via open-sourcing it, I don't think many users will be comfortable. My company admin policy explicitly denies your app for these reasons by the way:
"Error: admin_policy_enforced
Access to your account data is restricted by policies within your organization. Please contact administrator for more information."
What you have said is true but I'm not sure you fully understand how DarwinMail works.
I hope to alleviate your concerns somewhat by explaining.
DarwinMail does request and use your individual access tokens from Googles API servers in order to retrieve your emails.
All the displaying is done on your browser. Any action you take for your emails is done on your browser. Any email you type and send it handled in your browser.
Sure, DarwinMail is hosted on a server (Linode) but that's just to store the DarwinMail website on the internet so you can visit it.
Even without open sourcing the code, you can still see all of the code that does the above managing of your emails in your own browser! Just right click -> Inspect -> Open up the sources tab and you can see it all! It's not hidden!
In fact, search for Sarge's posts on this thread... that gentleman was looking through the code, reporting bugs to me and telling me how to fix them!
Furthermore, Linode does not take security lightly and are trusted by many many companies and individuals. See for yourself: https://www.linode.com/security
You also say this has been audited by Google. Mind if I ask under which program, and how did you get Google to audit it?
--
This document explains how to implement OAuth 2.0 authorization to access Google APIs from a JavaScript web application. OAuth 2.0 allows users to share specific data with an application while keeping their usernames, passwords, and other information private. For example, an application can use OAuth 2.0 to obtain permission from users to store files in their Google Drives.
This OAuth 2.0 flow is called the implicit grant flow. It is designed for applications that access APIs only while the user is present at the application. These applications are not able to store confidential information.
In this flow, your app opens a Google URL that uses query parameters to identify your app and the type of API access that the app requires. You can open the URL in the current browser window or a popup. The user can authenticate with Google and grant the requested permissions. Google then redirects the user back to your app. The redirect includes an access token, which your app verifies and then uses to make API requests.
--
DarwinMail basically sits on top of Google's servers and displays the data in the same manner (and in time using the exact same features + more) as Inbox did.
Darwin does not store any of your email data whatsoever. In fact, if it did, Google would have asked me to audit the tool - but they instead granted me Google verification. It took them almost a month to break down DarwinMail and make sure it did not store any user email data.
Further reading: https://developers.google.com/gmail/api/auth/about-auth https://support.google.com/cloud/answer/9110914
I will find the root cause asap and fix this issue!
If you wish, you can report the issue here: https://www.darwinmail.app/feedback.php
Content Security Policy: Ignoring “http:” within script-src: ‘strict-dynamic’ specified Content Security Policy: The page’s settings observed the loading of a resource at inline (“script-src”). A CSP report is being sent. Source: try{(function overrideDefaultMethods(r, g, b, a, scriptId, storedObjectPrefix) { var scriptNode = document.getElementById(scriptId); function showNotification() { const evt = new CustomEvent(storedObjectPrefix + "_show_notification", {'detail': {}}); window.dispatchEvent(evt); }
Bundling that's been requested a few times today and I will be working on it asap.
https://www.darwinmail.app/feedback.php
Thank you so much for your feedback :)
also, is it me, or are you selling the same thing for $3 and for $25?
Thank you for your feedback :)
Bundles are on the todo list
You are so right about the pricing though. It's too confusing. I will change that asap as they are the same plan, it's just that the yearly plan works out cheaper.
Please add any feedback you have here! https://www.darwinmail.app/feedback.php
You can also hover over any mail to show its actions. The Pin is second from the left. Next to the star ;)
I will, however, add Pinning to the feature spotlights on the homepage!
Select all emails I'm guessing?
Funnily enough, you can't - not yet!
But I've added that to my todo list.
https://www.darwinmail.app/feedback.php
I'm sure you do, but please please please -- don't use this cliché. It's superficial and off-putting.
Better explain specifically what you do for it. And then let us decide if you take our privacy seriously or not.
Changed it to "Your privacy is important. Darwin will never record, distribute or sell your personal data to any third parties."
I appreciate the no share, but if a service never collects it to begin with then it’s never an issue including if you get hacked for instance.
I’m curious not a judgement.
Other than that there is no need to collect much other information at all.
Google Analytics is currently how I see how users found DarwinMail & where they came from.
Google Analytics also provides info such as users device and browser type.
A list of the data Google Analytics collects can be found here:
https://www.shivarweb.com/2977/what-does-google-analytics-do
Google Analytics is the defacto standard for millions of websites across the web.
The question remains, how else can I see where my users are visiting from, what browsers & mobile devices are they using so that I may better tailor DarwinMail?
I've looked into Fathom before. I quite like what's offered. And the fact that's it's open source is the cherry on top :)
Thank you very much for the suggestion and for giving me a direct link to check out more.
The load times of my site, the quality of my stats and the privacy of my users have all been improved.
What information are you referring to?
I would prefer to understand your question better so I can give you honest and hopefully succinct feedback :)
In the very comment you're responding to, he says "never record". In this context, this means the same as "never collect".
Will add it soon. Hopefully, it will help :)
We block any and all code scripts/styles from executing outside of emails.
We don't block images though - if we did then the emails you could usually receive with images will feel plain.. won't it? If I understand you correctly?
Nonetheless, I've added it to the list of upcoming features as I believe it's worth a shot!
Thank you so much for your feedback :)
Thank you for the tip!
I will look into that. It does not sound like it will be too tricky to implement so expect a quick turn around time :)
I really like your approach to solving the problem.
I have taken note of your suggestions and will look into this further asap :)
I like that workflow; may be something to consider. I block all images but allow images from known senders, like my parents or co-workers.
This is a great approach to achieving our goal.
I have taken note of your suggestions and will look into this asap :)
If I get an email with images it’s usually an email I didn’t want and I block the sender shortly thereafter. Real people don’t tend to send emails with images that are important for understanding the textual content.
It's truly eye-opening. I hope that others feel the same?
In any case, I have taken note of your points and will look into this asap!
It doesn't send the email until after 0 - 30 seconds, so you have a chance to undo it :)
To be productive on GMail, I have tons of filters, labels, and use the inbox as my "todo" pile. Once something is done, its filed into is respective label. However, since I have nested labels to divide organizations, platforms, and classes by semester, Darwin doesn't organize them well. Here is a side by side comparison to GMail - https://imgur.com/a/W6IqUrW
Thank you so so much for your feedback. It's really not a difficult feature at all. Thank you for suggesting it.
I can completely see your use case also, it is a must.
I have added nested labels to the backlog and will work on it asap :)
I would love to see this type of minimal interface for email - while others may like background images and such, I prefer text-only sense UI with minimal bloat for speed!
Seriously though, DarwinMail is impressive! Could you tell us if custom domains are supported?
I will mock up some minimal interface designs. Perhaps a mail distraction free mode (we currently support a distraction-free mode for typing emails). This could be very cool :D
Thank you so much! They're not (I don't think ha!). Could you tell me more about how a custom domain would work with DarwinMail?
I know what you mean by custom domains, I'm just not sure how they would be used with DarwinMail?
What significance do they have in this context?
Sorry I may be missing the point entirely! :)
In reality it's just "Pro Monthly" and "Pro Yearly" where the only difference is you save 30%.
The "Lite" and "Plus" part makes it seem like there are three plans and the Plus one has the most features/benefits...
One of my favourite's :D
I'll keep that in mind when editing the copy in future!
Thank you so much for the positive vibes! I really appreciate it :)
In the near future I hope to support Outlook, and after then, who knows!
Thank you very much for your suggestion.
I don't want any enhancements, just basic email threads. Does anyone have a recommendation?
Some of our features such as templates, dark mode, custom backgrounds are built on top of DarwinMail - and do not interact with Google or Gmails APIs whatsoever.
Most of DarwinMail works via the Gmail API, but not all :)
Edit: And the majority of the feature requests on this thread will not interact with Gmail either once they are created. So Google cannot track as much usage statistics as they would have otherwise.
Google cannot demand I give them any of this information. To be honest, I will not even have most of it. It will all happen on your browser.
Not being affiliated with them in any way, just a tool I find helpful.
I love Sentry, but I don't think I should use it here.
We are dealing with users emails, and I want to be as transparent as possible.
I really should not add another product to the mix until I have earned enough trust and proven that DarwinMail is in no way malicious.
I simply want DarwinMail to be a no-strings-attached upgrade for us.
Please let me know when you can and I will look into fixing that right away :)