It is impressive, but you can buy items (with the in-app currency you get from finishing lections) that allow you to skip single days (or even whole weekends, IIRC).
That's correct - though you still need to log in to buy a Streak Freeze after it's used up, so you can't skip more than 48 hours. You can't "buy" multiple Streak Freezes in advance.
The Weekend Amulet is only offered after completing the lesson on Friday, as far as I can tell - you can't just buy them in the store, and they expire after the weekend is over whether you used it or not.
I got a bit over a 500 streak but stopped after that.
I felt that spaced-repetition on the words was more effective than whatever DuoLingo was doing, and DuoLingo's lesson for the language I was learning was not well maintained.
The gamification techniques DuoLingo's used made it much easier to maintain the streak. Albeit, it was really easy to just do DuoLingo "to get it done" rather than focusing on it as part of study.
It gets easier to maintain habits the longer you've been doing them. Most people can manage a 500-day streak of brushing their teeth easily. So the trick is to integrate studying into your daily routine the same way, such that it will feel just wrong to skip.
It sounds pretty impossible to me. I don't think I've had a 500 day streak of anything that isn't a biological function in my life. In the last 2 years I've not even maintained a streak of eating food every day.
I am on my 561 day streak today and I subscribed to Duolingo plus a month ago to repair my streak because my streak broke due to the jat lag disorder in the U.S.A. Before that I kept a 80 day streak but didn't know how to fix it when I just skipped just one day.
Now it becomes a part of my routine to practice German on Duolingo. Everyday for only about 10 minutes, and I like the Duolingo stories feature very much now and I can practice even for about 30 minutes on weekends.
It only takes ~5 minutes per day. My girlfriend has well over 1000 days. I got ill at some point, forgot my streak freeze, and had to give up at around 500 or so. Then I lost interest... I did miss the whole update where they started with advertisements to pay for the application (which are akin to spam because apparently 'no' does not mean 'no'). I'd have quit over that regardless. Though perhaps a webbrowser or PWA would do the trick (I use the Android version).
That being said, I did learn quite some Spanish and I'm happy I did but I am not sure Duolingo (or Memrise for that matter which I also tried) works better than high school spaced repetition, Anki, or Pimsleur.
I don't think there's any way to verify these are legitimate streaks though, and haven't been paid for. The whole concept really fell apart after Duolingo started monetizing that aspect of the app.
Well, do what works for you. I know first hand that letting a massive streak end can jeopardize your interest in starting again, so a strike revival system actively helps people.
Looking at a global streak leaderboard doesn't help you improve your foreign language skills, so I'm not sure what "fell apart."
If you miss a day, then your streak has ended. That's just what the word "streak" means. By accepting money to look the other way, Duolingo is cheating those that actually have kept their streaks going legitimately.
It's a flawed concept to build a leaderboard on a pliable statistic. That's what I'm saying.
I’ve used Duolingo for several years almost daily for 2-3 minutes to get started with learning Spanish (on a very longterm time horizon). It was a great way to start (because it felt like basically zero effort, other than establishing the daily habit which is naturally easy for me). Nowadays I read and watch Spanish-language news and write a daily journal in Spanish. I’m not at fluency yet but progress is steady.
It's a great way to start, and a great way to practice certain skills that are perhaps less oiled. I read foreign papers, listen to foreign music, and watch foreign films but that only helps so much with the actual speaking part of language. To those complaining of DuoLingo shortcomings, remember it's a part of language learning and not a one-stop-shop.
Practicing tricky conjugations and endings for languages is where DuoLingo is of most use to me, such that I keep up with my "language feel" so on-the-fly speaking isn't as mentally taxing. The times where I have taken extended breaks from DuoLingo would always end in my feeling as though I was getting rusty and not able to properly speak.
Also, thank you to whomever added the "leaderboard" feature to DuoLingo. Really brings out my competitiveness such that I now do something like 300 lessons per week as opposed to doing maybe 50 per week back in the day. Love when apps do things like that, helping me help myself.
The worst part of Duolingo is how boring it is to level up a skill to 5 when you already understand the topics taught. When learning German or Italian and testing out of the earlier levels, the exercise you get most of the time is just "sort these English words to translate the sentence". You can get it right all the time just by looking for a grammatically correct sentence with the most superficial of understanding. And if you really understand the sentence, you feel like you are wasting your time. What's the point? Let me take the level 4 or level 5 test directly!
I feel that over time, the app has been too optimized for user engagement instead of efficient learning. A/B test abuse, and looking at the wrong metrics.
Yes, that's true. But level 1 doesn't force you to write in the target language - the real value is in the last level.
You can go through the level 1 of all lessons relatively quickly, but you won't be actually learning.
Thanks. I wasn't aware of the distinction between the levels as I'm running them all up to five since Japanese is so completely foreign to me.
The Japanese course seems to be hated by the reddit crowd for learning the language, but it's been very beneficial to me. At least one reason is that if I stuck to writing the language in a workbook my progress on the language would be glacial. I would physically be able to write the characters better but would know a lot less of the language.
The Pimsleur method, which relies on a progressly timed learning technique really helps commit language to long term memory. It's audio only, but I really recommend then. I believe Ankh is based on this as well.
> These are some of my favorite
Christmas gifts because they're the
only self-teachers I know that work.
In just 20 minutes a day -- if you do
exactly what they tell you to with the
books and accompanying recordings -
- then presto! You will be talking like,
roughly, an unusually cosmopolitan 3-year old.
Actually we can jump up a level directly with fewer than 4 mistakes. To take the level 4 test we only need to take three additional tests which would cost only about 20 minutes.
> When learning German or Italian and testing out of the earlier levels, the exercise you get most of the time is just "sort these English words to translate the sentence".
Just for fun, I tried passing that test in three different languages.
Italian: I don't speak Italian at all, but with cognates and guesswork, I still managed to answer many questions correctly. Not enough to skip any lessons, though.
Japanese: I've been learning Japanese for maybe 6 months and the test result would've let me skip 60% of the course. That's despite the fact that I don't know any vocabulary related to some of those skipped topics (such as clothes).
Chinese: I'm fluent and answered all questions correctly, but was only skipped past 86% of the course.
From my experience most language learning products get boring once you advance. Happened to me with Pimsleur and also Duolingo. At some point you are ready for real conversation with people and the constant repetition that is necessary for the basics gets tedious.
You can do this on their mobile web app as well which is why I use that over the mobile application. The mobile web app experience is actually quite nice.
> the exercise you get most of the time is just "sort these English words to translate the sentence". You can get it right all the time just by looking for a grammatically correct sentence with the most superficial of understanding.
I think this is just a regression that came in as a result of their mobile app push. They expected it to be difficult for new users to get started with input methods, so they replaced typing exercises with word arrangement exercises, this means that the whole answer is just sitting on your screen, which defeats some of the point.
You can fix this by configuring these exercise types to be typing rather than word rearrangement, there's a little toggle IIRC at the bottom of each of this exercise type.
I agree that in the last year or two they seem to have optimized for metrics which do not map well to linguistic attainment. IIRC they used to have speaking exercises, and as far as I'm aware those are gone (maybe they couldn't make them good enough that they weren't making some people worse at speaking).
I'm going through Duolingo to actually learn Spanish for the first time, and I definitely agree that the direct approach for leveling up a lesson to level 5 is... tedious at best.
Instead I'm taking a different approach. I'm getting each skill to level 2, which is the point right before lessons start asking you to type answers and take away the word bubbles. That gets me basic familiarity, and I move through the coursework fairly quickly. Then once I'm past a checkpoint, as I have extra time, I slowly level up the stuff I've already completed. Right now most of my coursework is level 2, and the top like 1/5 of it is level 3. So far, this seems to work surprisingly well; it's kindof a crude, guided spaced repetition. The practice feature does actual spaced repetition I think, but I like this guided approach more.
The other key takeaway of course is that the "subject" of a given lesson is a head fake. The vocabulary matches that lesson, but the app is also careful to sneakily introduce grammatical constructs over time as well, and if you don't read the tips (I don't if I can help it), then you end up picking up a lot of those rules organically. For example, "a la" (roughly "to the") condenses to "al" in Spanish, and that was never explicitly taught in a lesson, it was just introduced in a sentence one day. It was confusing... and then it "clicked" and I got a feel for it. That part is very neat.
Anyway, the app certainly isn't for everyone, but as a total beginner who's tried other language learning approaches, mixing Duolingo (for consistent vocabulary acquisition) with organic language sources (in my case: games and TV in Spanish) seems to be really effective. The app may feel easy, but it's working and I can feel my understanding in the organic sources expanding as I go. If nothing else, it also gives me a baseline; I can knock out my 50xp in 20 minutes or so, and I do that every day. I think eventually I'll be able to read at a basic level and then I'll leave Duolingo in the dust, but until then, as a total novice, it's been a good starting point, and that seems to be what it's trying to be.
Ha, I would mess up the example. :P You're completely right of course. I guess I assumed it applied to both genders, but I'm still picking up the gender of a lot of the words; that's not terribly intuitive.
(almost) All the nouns ending with "a" are feminine - la silla, la mesa, la casa, la luna, la montaña. (Notable exception: el agua). Also feminine all that end in "ción" such as: la nación, la configuración, la confirmación.
Almost all the other nouns are masculine - el carro, el niño, el oso, el barrio, el avión, el camión, el árbol.
Pretty sure with those 2 simple rules you will catch 90% of genders right.
Actually, agua is feminine. But it takes el instead of la because it starts with an accented a. The common language-learning advice is "Don't learn the genders of nouns; learn the articles that go with them." But it doesn't quite work in Spanish.
Nauta and poeta are both members of a small set of profession words which are masculine despite being in the first declension (-a) in Latin. My textbook provided a comprehensive (again, small) list and just suggested they should all be memorized; the only other one I remember now is agricola, farmer.
Manus, hand, is one of an even smaller set of feminine fourth declension nouns. I believe this oddity has also been preserved in Spanish as "la mano".
This makes me wonder whether the Spanish words for trees tend to be feminine while having masculine-looking forms; that is regular in Latin.
>the app has been too optimized for user engagement instead of efficient learning
Yes. As an ad-supported app, the developers overwhelming motivation is to get users to take the next lesson, rather than to progress them toward mastery. The app seems designed to stimulate every reward center in the brain toward that end, the mechanisms for which usually ending up getting in the way of accessing the lesson content efficiently.
Duolingo also has a website, which is what I used studying German 6 years ago. Not only did it not have ads (don't know if that's still true), input with he keyboard was much easier and I felt gave me a little more memory than swiping a keyboard.
At that time each grammar lesson also had a page summarising the rules you were about to learn with examples and explainations.
>"sort these English words to translate the sentence" //
If I remember correctly you can choose to type in the words, but on mobile it can be easier mechanically to choose the words from the list and place them in order. Later on I think it removes the choice in some tests and has you type full sentences.
The best way to learn a language is to need to learn it. If you come in contact with a foreign language daily, it becomes much easier to both practice and motivate yourself to continue to practice. As someone who has spent thousands of hours learning a foreign language, I've come to the conclusion that I will never do it again unless I have a proper reason for it. Might seem obvious, but it's worth pointing out.
Another, closely related, case is when you love the culture the language gives you access to. Learning a language without interesting books/movies/tv shows behind it will most probably be a chore.
The first sentence is important. It's not about the abstract idea of "interesting items of culture" existing. IME they have to be already interesting to the learner to be a motivating factor.
Some people likely find any items of culture interesting. I'm not one of those people, and I suspect most around me aren't either, or we'd all know a lot more languages.
Personally, I like Spanish as a language and am learning it, and as a result I find that I have access to more Spanish movies/shows/books because I understand it better. It wasn't my goal, but it's a welcome perk, and my comment was mostly about the fact that even if you don't learn a language for it's culture, there's always a culture there for you to enjoy once you do.
I plan to learn Spanish by staying in Peru for a 2 months. I would duolingo spanish before that and put everything together and accelerate when i am in Peru.
One of the first things you will learn is the futility of “I am going to learn it in X months.” Try not to assign an unrealistic deadline (you don’t know what you don’t know), enjoy the long hike.
Think of Duolingo as, at best, riding a scooter or tricycle, if your goal is to ride a bicycle for a century (competency).
Check out iTalki. You can find hundreds of teachers for real live practice at reasonable rates. If you don’t click with a particular teacher, there are so many others to find a match with your schedule, learning style, and personality.
I know you are qualifying your efforts with the weasel word “lazy”, and I hate to break it to you but there is no magic bullet to learning a language after early childhood.
(Invested time x Motivation) ÷ Inhibition = Result
As the Spanish saying goes: los idiomas se aprenden en la cuna o en la cama ("languages are learned either in the cradle or in bed")
One of my acquaintances who is married to an Argentinian now does one day a week (Tuesday) in which they will only speak Spanish to each other the entire day and watch TV in Spanish. She is getting better. You might consider something similar.
You definitely have an advantage there. I hope you use it.
You don’t need full immersion. You just have to start vomiting words out.
Thank you for the inspiration regarding your acquaintance. I am trying this now with my wife who knows Spanish. We are doing Sabado por la mañana español. Lots of fun already!
The key, as you seem to already have found out, is to have fun with it.
There is a Portuguese saying along the lines of “Language is learned in public”. That is, to truly learn a language you must practice it in public spaces, with strangers and “danger” around.
You might be able to speak colloquial phrases, but you will not be able to write correctly. For example, perhaps you will be able to order food from a restaurant, or say hello to a stranger.
The best way to learn a language is spending a good size chunk of money. People are loss adverse. The need to extract value from the sunk cost is a powerful motivator. That's why in-person classes tend to be more effective than books. A book is always going to be there. Missing a class on the other hand is money down the drain.
I don't think this is true. I've spent lots of money on "necessary equipment" for my hobbies, and that hasn't made me commit more time to them. People buy expensive running shoes because they see themselves as being runners, and then they never put them on.
Your language skills deteriorate without use as well. I used to know German at a passable level at school, I no longer do. I can see patterns ans know some words, but it's definitely heavily degraded.
As far as language learning apps go I've gotten way more milage out of Clozemaster than I ever did out of Duolingo. At least for learning vocabulary Clozemaster's combination of spaced repetition and cloze-completions helps immensely (especially using it on free text input mode instead of multiple choice). That said Duolingo does help a lot more with the dead basics.
For context I could already speak Mandarin because I grew up bilingual but always found that I've have to laboriously re-learn vocabulary for literacy. Clozemaster seems like the most sustainable way for me to maintain an expanded vocabulary (in both Traditional and Simplified characters) that I've found.
I just do Clozemaster every time I sit on a toilet, pretty easy habit cue, if a bit gross.
I've done duolingo for the last two months - it's much better to think of it as a fun game with some learning on the side rather than anything serious.
Aside, the leaderboards are unironically a great feature. It gives a great incentive to practice more rather than reaching your required 50xp.
I agree with the article insofar as that learning a language solely via an app is not effective. However, I do not get the impression that the author actually has much experience learning languages through other means.
> The phrase “learning a language” is deceptively reductive. A language isn’t a
> singular monolith, but rather a complex interconnected system of components
> that build a way to communicate. The lexicon consists of the individual
> words, which speakers have to memorize. The syntax and grammar tell speakers
> how to properly structure those words in a sentence. Then there’s the writing
> system, which is the visual representation of words or sounds that allow
> words to be constructed (for example, in English, the writing system is the
> alphabet).
And, more importantly, there is also the task of learning the meaning of words in common idioms, as well as learning to recognize implicit meaning. Understanding syntax and individual words will never help you understand sentences like, for example, "sorry, I just had to get it out of my system". It will also not help you recognize the tone of a piece of writing.
> Duolingo often just drops a new particle on you without much explanation of
> what it does or even that it’s a particle at all. Memrise handles this a bit
> better, with lessons dedicated to how certain particles and grammar work, but
> it helps to have external lessons, an instructor, or best of all a native
> speaker to help explain some of the finer points of nuance in a language’s
> grammar.
It is debatable whether external lessons have an advantage over lessons in a mobile app, but that a native speaker is "best of all" suited to explaining the grammar of a language is a bold-faced lie. Native speakers do usually not understand grammar at all, because they have no reason to. (They do, however, almost universally across cultures often love giving an answer to grammar-related questions that you ask them, to avoid admitting to their lack of understanding.)
> You can learn as many words or sentences as you want, but until you’re able
> to have a conversation with another person, you’ll never be fluent. [...] For
> that reason alone, learning a language with an app should be a starting
> point, not the end. If you make it through an entire Duolingo skill tree or a
> Memrise lesson plan, it might be time to upgrade to an in-person class, or
> you might want to find a native speaker to practice with.
I think this more balanced assessment is the most important takeaway from the article. When learning any language, through any means, you will never progress beyond a basic level without practice. Practice does not necessarily have to entail having an in-person conversation, but you absolutely need to actually make use of the language skills you're acquiring: watch TV, write a blog, read a book, call someone, and so on.
Personally, I don't really recommend taking an in-person class if you already use an app and a textbook to learn. Sure, you can ask the instructor questions about particular grammar points that you encounter in your studies, but generally, if you're asking questions about grammar, you're doing language learning wrong. The human brain is much better suited to understanding and producing human language than it is to parsing text from a Backus-Naur form, so that's what you should focus on. A Japanese child doesn't understand the purpose of every particle either, but she easily beats you in fluency.
> Personally, I don't really recommend taking an in-person class if you already use an app and a textbook to learn.
I think there are cases where it really pays off to have a real lesson to improve your experience. There are situations which are not possible to explain in a concise/picture way, duolingo-style. They may be also hard to figure out from generic rules from a book. But having someone to ask - "so what is the reason behind this specific use?" can save you hours of study and many mistakes.
Even worse, learning without interaction with someone who can correct you may result in you learning something that's not true. But you kept repeating it and it only became harder to get rid of the issue. That's my experience from learning Japanese from Duolingo and Rosetta.
As far as taking an in-person class, if you tend to be the type to research things and think about them rather than doing them, then a class is an amazing resource:
- other students to practice with (new friends who share an interest!)
- a teacher you can ask questions and build a relationship with (if they're a native speaker, this can be motivating)
- you're forced to listen, speak, read, and write, often before you feel ready
I started with language courses, and lucked out with a great teacher and fun students. I spent lots of time with the language and advanced really quickly, and my classes were perfect places to try out my new knowledge. I still remember one day we were having some natives over to interview, and I racked my brain to come up with interesting questions; one of them was 'What's in your fridge at home?'. My point is that my class was a great place to try out what I was learning at home on my own time. Also lots of fun memories.
---
I'd agree on asking questions about grammar; it's possible to study the language instead of learning it. What I mean is that studying and having the skills - speaking, writing, etc - are two very different things.
As far as learning grammar, this cycle proved extremely effective for me:
- Learn about grammar in class
- Learn about grammar on my own (e.g. compare English and Russian grammar [1])
- notice new grammar in whatever I was listening or reading
Jim Scrivener (an English teacher and teacher trainer) writes this about grammar in 'Learning Teaching' (p. 253):
"It seems likely that learners have to do a number of things to be able to start making any new grammar item part of their own personal stock of language.
They probably need to have _exposure_ to the language; they need to _notice_ and _understand_ itms being used; they need to _try using_ language themselves in 'safe' practice ways and in more demainding contexts; they need to _remember_ the things they have learnt." [2]
So it follows from this that learning needs to be a very rich process - bursting at the seams with context and emotions and lots of words; where Duolingo and the others are more similar to a Greek salad: not bad, but you're not getting everything you need.
So use language learning apps, but make sure your language learning diet is giving you everything: lots of exposure, time to notice and understand, opportunities to practice - from easy to demanding, and plenty of review.
If you have a healthy diet - lots of exposure to the language - then you'll review grammar structures and words as a natural part of your listening/reading.
Frustration with Duolingo and Memrise when learning German led me to build a tool that could generate sentences in German and English simultaneously, while obeying the grammar rules.
In my opinion, the handful of hand crafted sentences they provide bundles way too much complexity together at random.
In a traditional text book, you'd get a dozen questions that are very similar, changing one or two aspects of a sentence.
Ich habe ein Buch.
Sie haben ein Buch.
Ich habe zwei Bücher.
So, I built a ClojureScript app that did just that. Sitting down and churning through hundreds of those allowed me to build an intuition for grammar rules that I knew on paper but would mess up when attempting to use them.
But it took quite a bit of time to write, especially when the sentences became complicated, so was almost certainly a net negative to my personal learning.
I had thought about building it out further, but I don't speak German so would need a partner, and ended up getting funding for something else so life took me in a different direction.
I do wish there were a product like it though, if anyone knows of anything similar I'd love to know. It's not that exotic, just a digitized textbook!
You may be interested in Seedlang. It's not exactly an online textbook, but it does have a greater focus on grammar than Duolingo. It also has video lessons, worksheets, and a multi player "quiz show".
> So, I built a ClojureScript app that did just that. Sitting down and churning through hundreds of those allowed me to build an intuition for grammar rules that I knew on paper but would mess up when attempting to use them.
If you did not use an existing rules engine, would you please consider open sourcing what you have done to help others who are considering building something similar? Or describe more in depth how you did it?
The current tools I see out there like LanguageTool are quite horrid when it comes to expressing the rules.
I had a bunch of helper functions, but my view was that there's no way to solve it in general; building exercises would always involve writing annotations via a DSL.
You wouldn't be able to avoid hand crafting each sentence structure (like you were writing a textbook), but the advantage comes from being able to parameterize the generation of tests. You define where the holes are and what can go in them for a particular exercise, and the combinatorial nature of it yields thousands of examples, with tunable complexity, allowing you to crunch on a topic with enough variation that you still have to think and not get bored.
Ich mag rote Bücher, aber er grüne besser ist denkt.
It's been two years so es ist viellicht nicht richtig!
I don't think if you solve it this way, my solution would really be a helpful starting point.
I didn't have a plan for moving past the first year or two of learning, I think you could learn a ton of basics this way, but once language gets more subtle and varied you'd probably need to do something else entirely.
Also I don't know if this would work with other languages. German is extremely regular.
You might be interested in Grammatical Framework[0]. You specify an abstract grammar, and then implement it for particular languages. The system automatically conjugates verbs based on context.
It's not terrible, though the documentation isn't great.
Used it at my research job to convert English sentences to modal logic formulae and it was an alright experience.
Once you’re past a basic level you’re at least as well off using Anki cloze deletion cards for this. You take a news article or short story and break it into chunks and the app will show it to you with bits missing and you have to guess/remember what’s in the missing parts.
So this is the source card with four possible deletions.
[Alle glücklichen Familien_c1] [sind einander ähnlich_c2]; [aber jede unglückliche Familie_c3] [ist auf ihre besondere Art unglücklich._c4]
And this is one question generated from that card.
[...] sind einander ähnlich; aber jede unglückliche Familie ist auf ihre besondere Art unglücklich.
You could do the same with a grammar textbook but if you use authentic texts I find it more enjoyable. If you want known good translations project Gutenberg has many different translations of classic works and aligning parallel corpora is a solved problem in natural language processing. If you want simple sentence structures you could start with children’s books.
Yeah, I was always sure it would run out of steam eventually (as I said in another comment), but I do think that point is well beyond where e.g. Duolingo reaches. What I described is basic, but once you're generating sentences from data there is quite a lot you can do with it.
I also used clozes; once you're reading newspapers with high retention I doubt there's much use to what I'd build. I can tell you that clozing children's books does not at all fulfill the same role having done both.
Duolingo felt Like a massive waste of time to me. I don't remember it helping me beyond reinforcing my hiragana a bit. Multiple choice vocab training doesn't work and the amount you learn per day is way too low considering I did 30 minutes per day. After I switched to Anki my vocabs took off like a rocket. Duolingo basically cost me 3 months without learning anything. Of course back then I was lazy so maybe Duolingo helped me get started without losing interest quickly.
I feel similar way. Duolingo has the best gamification which actually works. But it didn't actually teach me much. I ended up moving to Rosetta stone (better in content, worse at keeping me interested). Then after getting some more experience I switched to lessons over Skype and don't regret it at all. This was for Japanese, which is not at the same level as the much more popular Spanish though.
I'm using Duolingo to learn my 4th language. My previously recent language was studied in the early 90's, for perspective.
Currently, I'm taking on Japanese. Becoming fluent with this app (or any other single app) is going to be just impossible. In isolation it will be a haphazard collection of phrases picked up at a glacial pace.
The pluses to Duo are huge, though. What some see as repetition to gain master on a mini-subject are of huge benefit compared just seeing the one or two sample sentences in a book, or hearing the same. I have to build sentences with the correct structure and I'm immediately graded and shown the answer.
As a self learner, there was nothing like this thirty years ago. With Japanese, there are particles which mark the different parts of a sentence. Sure, these are all in grammar books, but having them drilled into me and forcing me to construct sentences with them is hugely helpful.
There are lots of complaints that the Japanese course in particular is bad or leads to stilted speech, but at the structural level it seems to agree with the grammar guides and textbooks I'm also using.
Learning Arabic, I had a stack of textbooks three feet high and dozens of cassette tapes. Surely Duolingo replaces a large chunk of these, especially the starter ones.
It isn't good at bulk/breadth, and there is no speaking component.
Edit: I guess I'm saying I'm a huge fan of Duo (and other apps) as an addition to the tools available for learning a language.
It may vary depending on language but there's definitely a speaking component in Duolingo. In a language I am learning it gives a sentence in the native language, asks you speak it, and then grades you on a per-word performance. Only downside is that there is a really goofy 3-try limit that was probably a lazy work-around (instead of e.g. adding an optional skip option after 3 failures) to somebody getting permanently stuck.
I’ve found no better technique than a language exchange partner. If you are learning Spanish, find a Spanish speaker trying to learn English. Meet up for an hour speaking English for 30 minutes and Spanish for 30 minutes. For me, this was the only way to put lessons into practice without the stress.
But it doesn't apply when it comes to unpopular(frankly speaking I am a Chinese and several years ago I tried my best to find a partner for English but failed) languages like Chinese.
Since friends will be hesitant to correct you when you make a mistake, I recommend iTalki (https://www.italki.com) as it is considerably less inexpensive than in-person lessons/practice.
I am a Chinese and I am learning German on Duolingo in English and sometimes learn English in German. I am on my 561 day streak today and I find it is very useful.
Before practice I can learn the related grammar and the newly added stories feature and tinycards function is of great help(glean words in context).
I learned Spanish 12 years ago by studying in Antigua, Guatemala then continuing to backpack through South America. I never felt that I learned Spanish until after about a month in Colombia where I had to use Spanish almost daily for the entire day.
I’ve tried DuoLingo for French and I’ve built several language apps myself. I think we’ll eventually get to the point where we can learn new languages from our phones but it will require a lot more content and interaction.
I agree with the criticisms in this article. I currently have a 1.012 day streak on Duolingo, which I’m using to learn German, Esperanto, and Greek. I’ve “completed” the German course several times as the course was expanded, and even with the help of Clozemaster and Memrise I’m still only a B1 on an online CEFR test. It’s fine for the basics, but there’s no way it’ll make you good enough to, say, start working for a German-language software development company.
2000+ day streaker here, 5.5 years give or take, and I agree that the original article reads about right. I feel Duolingo hit the sweet spot roughly two years in, that is to say a good balance of introducing new vocab with revision of previous topics. It's still a very good way to pick up some basics, and I learned more with it than I ever did when I studied a language as part of my secondary education.
When Duolingo changed the way the skill tree worked a couple (?) of years ago it felt like it became more of a grind. I know they have some pretty smart people working on the app though, so I'm sure they're going in the right direction; but it feels like it's now easier to progress through the tree and the amount of vocab has been reduced, including hiding/simplifying the grammar study. IIRC in the original tree you had things like the "passé composé" introduced sooner, now they appear at a point that I suspect most users will have given up.
FWIW I tried Memrise early on and I didn't like the non-literal approach to the flash cards. I've been using Anki, which has some good decks but they can be questionable - for example the top 500 French words doesn't include the articles with the nouns, not a good thing.
Of course, the biggest things that have contributed to learning: moving to a French speaking country, switching all my devices to French, attending some classes, volunteering in a local gallery where I need to speak and use some vocab I wouldn't usually encounter. Still a long way to go though.
I was an early duolingo adopter but I feel that the app went nowhere if not down-hill. The main drive force at the beginning was learning a language just good enough and moving onto translating articles and comparing translations with other users and discussing these - that was a very intersting way of learning. Today you just grind simple questions on terribly designed courses. The writte material is an absolute joke and for the longest time wasn't even available on mobile.
Also this obsession with streak really killing motivation for learning. Someone should send duolingo the article that was on HN front-page few days ago about learning being more effecitve when taking breaks.
I used Memrise until I got bored: being forced to learn and repeat ad nauseam words that I'm sure I will never use is stupid. Since then I use an Anki deck with selected words/sentences picked from a Polish newspaper and a cheatsheet[1], that I should update more often, for patterns and macro understanding.
Don't try to learn 100% of what you know about a language from an app; and if you can manage to install an input method for your target language, toggle those "rearrange these words" exercises into typing exercises.
If your target language has any media you enjoy watching (this is hard for me with Mandarin, and to some extent Japanese, since I find most of the TV shows basically unwatchable), consume that with subtitles, and pay a bit of attention at first to how things are said. If you hear a new word or phrase which sounds useful by its translation, repeatedly transcribe the phrase in the target writing system, and get a feel for why it means what it does.
Duolingo is a tool, but just as you should not attempt to build a house with only a carpenter's hammer, you should not attempt to learn a language with only Duolingo.
Even though I've only ever lived in Canada and the US, I feel like I could benefit from learning more English. I realized this when I watched my kids diagramming sentences and thought back to how I was never able to master anything beyond basic noun, verb, pronoun, adverb stuff. I'm talking about things like participles and perfect tenses and articles.
I'm not really sure what you could gain from that. Language is not the stuffy study of hard and fast rules, but a constant negotiation between what the listener is capable of understanding, and what the speaker will compose.
In the same way that unexamined Ebonics is not just crappy English, unexamined Standard American English is not just crappy English.
Whether you're aware of the underlying rules or not, you're following those rules when you're understood, and you're breaking them when you're not.
> I'm not really sure what you could gain from that.
Are you saying that as someone that has a good understanding of English grammar?
I was thinking that in the same way have a better knowledge of basic physics or chemistry can help me cook or fix my car, better knowledge of my language could help me understand and be understood.
For example, in one of my previous jobs I received a critique saying I should stop using the passive voice when I write. It's a habit I haven't been able to break and my first draft of anything I write is still very passive. Frankly, I don't have a good idea of what makes something passive on paper.
> Are you saying that as someone that has a good understanding of English grammar?
I have a very strong working understanding of English grammar, but I couldn't recall many of the concepts concepts by name. I think I'm roughly at the same place as you on that matter.
> I should stop using the passive voice when I write.
That is a great idea. For people who have trouble sticking to habits, I always suggest using a tool like http://hemingwayapp.com/
Tools like this give you practice recognizing patterns you don't want to see in your writing. People I've suggested it to have found it very useful.
I ran my previous comment through it and my comment requires an 8th grade reading level and was scored as good.
My paragraph that starts "I was thinking" is marked as very hard to read. My "For example" sentence is hard to read. I used one adverb (frankly), and used the passive voice once (be understood). I'm not sure I see the problem with be understood.
I think there is no substitute for old style learning, teacher, classroom and stress of memorizing about 20 words for the next class. Did anyone use those small format notebooks with two columns so you can effectively examine yourself? One column for foreign word and second for mother tongue word?
I think it is great for vocabulary. But vocabulary is only a part of knowing a language. Apps mostly aim at vocabulary, and while approach is similar I think it is much better to stare at a paper notebook then your smartphone screen.
Thats how we learned English in school and for me I can say I never learned the vocabulary and I was not great in English examens either. The reason I am a C2 English speaker by now is that school gave me a good foundation (but did not bring me to fluency) and then mostly by using the language on the web due to my interests and the availability of information. I learned a lot just of English as a side product of some other productive or recreational activity.
As a non-native speaker in a non-English speaking country, spending time reading and writing comments on HN has, I think, greatly improved my English skills. I am always intrigued to discover new sentence structures and phrasal verbs put in real use. I have also found that the particular usage of English, that is, the writing style, the vocabulary, the bias, are to a large extent a reflection of the culture in English-speaking countries.
In my mother tongue (Bulgarian), the style of everyday communication is rather different. Ad-hominem arguments are not rare and are sometimes considered a legitimate way of reasoning, people are also expecting to receive and send "orders" when they communicate in a business environment. All of that doesn't foster any deep reasoning and leads to shallow conversations which change their direction quite sporadically.
Coming here to this website, I am able to enjoy a style of coherent communication where your arguments must be well-grounded and logically sound. In the relatively rare cases of applying personal bias while questioning the claims of others, you do so with much softer words and phrases.
For example, something like "I'd like to pretend that the issue is..." is a construct which can be translated to Bulgarian with a very similar grammatical construction, but it is virtually unused and would be considered outrageously snobbish and pretentious when used. We would just say "the issue is...".
For Mandarin Chinese, I found the Chinese-specific apps HelloChinese and ChineseSkill to be much better than Duolingo. Duolingo seems to follow a one-size-fits-all approach, and it suffers when faced with a language with tones, a complex character system, a romanization system commonly used for learning (pinyin), etc. Those other two apps have been called Duolingo clones, but they were designed with Chinese specifically in mind and it shows, they're leaps and bounds better.
I also have found The Chairman's Bao (news, curated and graded by HSK level, together with pinyin, vocabulary, grammar points and questions associated with each piece of news) and various Coursera courses helpful.
There is also plenty of crappy apps and resources around, and probably much better resources than the current ones will be made, but if one chooses well, it's amazing how easier it is to learn a language now than ten years ago. Getting to any nontrivial level of Mandarin Chinese was all but impossible without classes, now it's doable.
Much appreciated. I have been learning Mandarin on Duolingo. It was mostly just for fun, but at some point it starts getting a bit frustrating (lack of notes, topics, reading longer texts).
My now 12.5 years old daughter started to learn English on Duolingo when she was around 9. She didn't complete the full course, but has around 100-150 days of lessons. It definitely helped her starting to understand the language.
She loves Harry Potter so much that after reading the whole series in Romanian, she started to read the first volume in English. Didn't finish that either, but managed to read about 100 pages of it and she said that after 30-40 pages, it became substantially easier to understand.
Now she's among top 3 students, if not the first, in her class at English, outpacing colleagues who take 2-3 hours weekly of extra English lessons, without having a single paid English lesson.
Duolingo might not teach you how to speak a language fluently, but it definitely can give you a headstart in learning one.
She's not able to speak English fluently yet, but she's able to watch TV series without subtitles and she's able to actually communicate with other English speaking people when visiting other countries.
If you re-read my comment carefully, you will find that I am presenting another anecdotal counterexample, so I don't see where your coming from with that comment.
Also, we can discuss, but we should be aware that we can draw little to no conclusions.
I think that's both duolingo and more her effort to find ways to apply the language to her interests. I didn't have literature in my language classes and generally wasn't taught about the opportunity to "live" in my target language until I got to college IIRC.
Here in the US, we go hard on repeated rote memorization and mastery of minute things that don't matter as much.
>She didn't complete the full course, but has around 100-150 days of lessons
"Did wet streets cause rain or did rain cause wet streets" Did 100 lessons of treatment (duolingo) cause her to become proficient in English or are children with a natural proficiency towards language the ones that survive the treatment?
If only the strongest people survive having their blood drawn by leeches, it doesn't mean that leeches make you strong. Despite there being a high correlation in treatment outcome.
When I started learning more languages as an adult, I found that the biggest accelerator for me personally was likewise to read novels, even if they were way beyond my nominal skill level. The first 50-100 pages would be slow grinding, looking up almost everything in the dictionary, but then it would rapidly get faster and easier as I got used to common turns of phrases, idioms etc. And it was great for maintaining real motivation, wanting to read and understand these captivating stories by Eco, Houellebecq, etc.
That's a really interesting approach. I wonder if there are reading apps which have that dictionary integrated, but which still require a mouseover / tap to display it for a particular word (they are just using a translation language dictionary).
Pleco is a high-quality dictionary app (for Chinese and only Chinese) which is currently moving into the space of selling ebooks. Dictionary features are of course integrated into the reader.
In my experience, a little hardship when looking up a word helps you remember it. Like having to alt-tab to a Google Translate tab vs just tapping the word inline, or having subtitles.
If it's too easy, then I found I'll look up the same words every time because it's too easy-come-easy-go.
I learned Japanese to a level where I can read novels without a dictionary, more or less. I just looked the words up one by one - I think the amount of time to look up a word actually made me learn them better. If I only saw a word once, I would be less likely to look it up. If a word I didn’t know always came up, I’d look it up and write it down. You also get lots of examples of how to use a word if you look it up - a definition alone is not always the best way to learn. If you are reading online, you can use the chrome plugin rikaikun to get a mouse over lookup. But I still prefer a hard copy and an electronic dictionary.
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[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 198 ms ] threadThe Weekend Amulet is only offered after completing the lesson on Friday, as far as I can tell - you can't just buy them in the store, and they expire after the weekend is over whether you used it or not.
(I'm currently on an 872 day streak.)
The gamification techniques DuoLingo's used made it much easier to maintain the streak. Albeit, it was really easy to just do DuoLingo "to get it done" rather than focusing on it as part of study.
Now it becomes a part of my routine to practice German on Duolingo. Everyday for only about 10 minutes, and I like the Duolingo stories feature very much now and I can practice even for about 30 minutes on weekends.
That being said, I did learn quite some Spanish and I'm happy I did but I am not sure Duolingo (or Memrise for that matter which I also tried) works better than high school spaced repetition, Anki, or Pimsleur.
Looking at a global streak leaderboard doesn't help you improve your foreign language skills, so I'm not sure what "fell apart."
It's a flawed concept to build a leaderboard on a pliable statistic. That's what I'm saying.
Practicing tricky conjugations and endings for languages is where DuoLingo is of most use to me, such that I keep up with my "language feel" so on-the-fly speaking isn't as mentally taxing. The times where I have taken extended breaks from DuoLingo would always end in my feeling as though I was getting rusty and not able to properly speak.
Also, thank you to whomever added the "leaderboard" feature to DuoLingo. Really brings out my competitiveness such that I now do something like 300 lessons per week as opposed to doing maybe 50 per week back in the day. Love when apps do things like that, helping me help myself.
I feel that over time, the app has been too optimized for user engagement instead of efficient learning. A/B test abuse, and looking at the wrong metrics.
The point is making a phrase really get memorized.
The Japanese course seems to be hated by the reddit crowd for learning the language, but it's been very beneficial to me. At least one reason is that if I stuck to writing the language in a workbook my progress on the language would be glacial. I would physically be able to write the characters better but would know a lot less of the language.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assimil
> These are some of my favorite Christmas gifts because they're the only self-teachers I know that work. In just 20 minutes a day -- if you do exactly what they tell you to with the books and accompanying recordings - - then presto! You will be talking like, roughly, an unusually cosmopolitan 3-year old.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=502158...
Just for fun, I tried passing that test in three different languages.
Italian: I don't speak Italian at all, but with cognates and guesswork, I still managed to answer many questions correctly. Not enough to skip any lessons, though.
Japanese: I've been learning Japanese for maybe 6 months and the test result would've let me skip 60% of the course. That's despite the fact that I don't know any vocabulary related to some of those skipped topics (such as clothes).
Chinese: I'm fluent and answered all questions correctly, but was only skipped past 86% of the course.
I think this is just a regression that came in as a result of their mobile app push. They expected it to be difficult for new users to get started with input methods, so they replaced typing exercises with word arrangement exercises, this means that the whole answer is just sitting on your screen, which defeats some of the point.
You can fix this by configuring these exercise types to be typing rather than word rearrangement, there's a little toggle IIRC at the bottom of each of this exercise type.
I agree that in the last year or two they seem to have optimized for metrics which do not map well to linguistic attainment. IIRC they used to have speaking exercises, and as far as I'm aware those are gone (maybe they couldn't make them good enough that they weren't making some people worse at speaking).
Instead I'm taking a different approach. I'm getting each skill to level 2, which is the point right before lessons start asking you to type answers and take away the word bubbles. That gets me basic familiarity, and I move through the coursework fairly quickly. Then once I'm past a checkpoint, as I have extra time, I slowly level up the stuff I've already completed. Right now most of my coursework is level 2, and the top like 1/5 of it is level 3. So far, this seems to work surprisingly well; it's kindof a crude, guided spaced repetition. The practice feature does actual spaced repetition I think, but I like this guided approach more.
The other key takeaway of course is that the "subject" of a given lesson is a head fake. The vocabulary matches that lesson, but the app is also careful to sneakily introduce grammatical constructs over time as well, and if you don't read the tips (I don't if I can help it), then you end up picking up a lot of those rules organically. For example, "a la" (roughly "to the") condenses to "al" in Spanish, and that was never explicitly taught in a lesson, it was just introduced in a sentence one day. It was confusing... and then it "clicked" and I got a feel for it. That part is very neat.
Anyway, the app certainly isn't for everyone, but as a total beginner who's tried other language learning approaches, mixing Duolingo (for consistent vocabulary acquisition) with organic language sources (in my case: games and TV in Spanish) seems to be really effective. The app may feel easy, but it's working and I can feel my understanding in the organic sources expanding as I go. If nothing else, it also gives me a baseline; I can knock out my 50xp in 20 minutes or so, and I do that every day. I think eventually I'll be able to read at a basic level and then I'll leave Duolingo in the dust, but until then, as a total novice, it's been a good starting point, and that seems to be what it's trying to be.
“a el” condenses to “al”.
You might want to get a book on Spanish grammar to cross-check when you encounter new rules.
Almost all the other nouns are masculine - el carro, el niño, el oso, el barrio, el avión, el camión, el árbol.
Pretty sure with those 2 simple rules you will catch 90% of genders right.
Manus, hand, is one of an even smaller set of feminine fourth declension nouns. I believe this oddity has also been preserved in Spanish as "la mano".
This makes me wonder whether the Spanish words for trees tend to be feminine while having masculine-looking forms; that is regular in Latin.
Yes. As an ad-supported app, the developers overwhelming motivation is to get users to take the next lesson, rather than to progress them toward mastery. The app seems designed to stimulate every reward center in the brain toward that end, the mechanisms for which usually ending up getting in the way of accessing the lesson content efficiently.
At that time each grammar lesson also had a page summarising the rules you were about to learn with examples and explainations.
If I remember correctly you can choose to type in the words, but on mobile it can be easier mechanically to choose the words from the list and place them in order. Later on I think it removes the choice in some tests and has you type full sentences.
What language doesn't have interesting items of culture behind it?
Russia no doubt has interesting items of culture as well, but I am not exposed to them at all and therefore have no desire to learn Russian.
Some people likely find any items of culture interesting. I'm not one of those people, and I suspect most around me aren't either, or we'd all know a lot more languages.
Languages often have neat features, but that isn't enough for me to prioritize learning one above other things.
Thats the plan for now anyways :D.
One of the first things you will learn is the futility of “I am going to learn it in X months.” Try not to assign an unrealistic deadline (you don’t know what you don’t know), enjoy the long hike.
Think of Duolingo as, at best, riding a scooter or tricycle, if your goal is to ride a bicycle for a century (competency).
Check out iTalki. You can find hundreds of teachers for real live practice at reasonable rates. If you don’t click with a particular teacher, there are so many others to find a match with your schedule, learning style, and personality.
https://www.italki.com/
Buena suerte!
I just need a full immersion where i can enjoy the full payoff.
(Invested time x Motivation) ÷ Inhibition = Result
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kató_Lomb
As the Spanish saying goes: los idiomas se aprenden en la cuna o en la cama ("languages are learned either in the cradle or in bed")
One of my acquaintances who is married to an Argentinian now does one day a week (Tuesday) in which they will only speak Spanish to each other the entire day and watch TV in Spanish. She is getting better. You might consider something similar.
You definitely have an advantage there. I hope you use it.
You don’t need full immersion. You just have to start vomiting words out.
The key, as you seem to already have found out, is to have fun with it.
There is a Portuguese saying along the lines of “Language is learned in public”. That is, to truly learn a language you must practice it in public spaces, with strangers and “danger” around.
For context I could already speak Mandarin because I grew up bilingual but always found that I've have to laboriously re-learn vocabulary for literacy. Clozemaster seems like the most sustainable way for me to maintain an expanded vocabulary (in both Traditional and Simplified characters) that I've found.
I just do Clozemaster every time I sit on a toilet, pretty easy habit cue, if a bit gross.
Aside, the leaderboards are unironically a great feature. It gives a great incentive to practice more rather than reaching your required 50xp.
Personally, I don't really recommend taking an in-person class if you already use an app and a textbook to learn. Sure, you can ask the instructor questions about particular grammar points that you encounter in your studies, but generally, if you're asking questions about grammar, you're doing language learning wrong. The human brain is much better suited to understanding and producing human language than it is to parsing text from a Backus-Naur form, so that's what you should focus on. A Japanese child doesn't understand the purpose of every particle either, but she easily beats you in fluency.
Related TED talk (good despite the sensationalist title): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0yGdNEWdn0
I think there are cases where it really pays off to have a real lesson to improve your experience. There are situations which are not possible to explain in a concise/picture way, duolingo-style. They may be also hard to figure out from generic rules from a book. But having someone to ask - "so what is the reason behind this specific use?" can save you hours of study and many mistakes.
Even worse, learning without interaction with someone who can correct you may result in you learning something that's not true. But you kept repeating it and it only became harder to get rid of the issue. That's my experience from learning Japanese from Duolingo and Rosetta.
- other students to practice with (new friends who share an interest!)
- a teacher you can ask questions and build a relationship with (if they're a native speaker, this can be motivating)
- you're forced to listen, speak, read, and write, often before you feel ready
I started with language courses, and lucked out with a great teacher and fun students. I spent lots of time with the language and advanced really quickly, and my classes were perfect places to try out my new knowledge. I still remember one day we were having some natives over to interview, and I racked my brain to come up with interesting questions; one of them was 'What's in your fridge at home?'. My point is that my class was a great place to try out what I was learning at home on my own time. Also lots of fun memories.
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I'd agree on asking questions about grammar; it's possible to study the language instead of learning it. What I mean is that studying and having the skills - speaking, writing, etc - are two very different things.
As far as learning grammar, this cycle proved extremely effective for me:
- Learn about grammar in class
- Learn about grammar on my own (e.g. compare English and Russian grammar [1])
- notice new grammar in whatever I was listening or reading
Jim Scrivener (an English teacher and teacher trainer) writes this about grammar in 'Learning Teaching' (p. 253):
"It seems likely that learners have to do a number of things to be able to start making any new grammar item part of their own personal stock of language.
They probably need to have _exposure_ to the language; they need to _notice_ and _understand_ itms being used; they need to _try using_ language themselves in 'safe' practice ways and in more demainding contexts; they need to _remember_ the things they have learnt." [2]
So it follows from this that learning needs to be a very rich process - bursting at the seams with context and emotions and lots of words; where Duolingo and the others are more similar to a Greek salad: not bad, but you're not getting everything you need.
So use language learning apps, but make sure your language learning diet is giving you everything: lots of exposure, time to notice and understand, opportunities to practice - from easy to demanding, and plenty of review. If you have a healthy diet - lots of exposure to the language - then you'll review grammar structures and words as a natural part of your listening/reading.
1: https://www.amazon.com/English-Grammar-Students-Russian-Lear... 2: https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=vPWdBgAAQBAJ&pg=PT8&dq=... (different book, same quote)
In my opinion, the handful of hand crafted sentences they provide bundles way too much complexity together at random.
In a traditional text book, you'd get a dozen questions that are very similar, changing one or two aspects of a sentence.
Ich habe ein Buch. Sie haben ein Buch. Ich habe zwei Bücher.
So, I built a ClojureScript app that did just that. Sitting down and churning through hundreds of those allowed me to build an intuition for grammar rules that I knew on paper but would mess up when attempting to use them.
But it took quite a bit of time to write, especially when the sentences became complicated, so was almost certainly a net negative to my personal learning.
I had thought about building it out further, but I don't speak German so would need a partner, and ended up getting funding for something else so life took me in a different direction.
I do wish there were a product like it though, if anyone knows of anything similar I'd love to know. It's not that exotic, just a digitized textbook!
If you did not use an existing rules engine, would you please consider open sourcing what you have done to help others who are considering building something similar? Or describe more in depth how you did it?
The current tools I see out there like LanguageTool are quite horrid when it comes to expressing the rules.
https://github.com/languagetool-org/languagetool
You wouldn't be able to avoid hand crafting each sentence structure (like you were writing a textbook), but the advantage comes from being able to parameterize the generation of tests. You define where the holes are and what can go in them for a particular exercise, and the combinatorial nature of it yields thousands of examples, with tunable complexity, allowing you to crunch on a topic with enough variation that you still have to think and not get bored.
Ich mag rote Bücher, aber er grüne besser ist denkt.
It's been two years so es ist viellicht nicht richtig!
I don't think if you solve it this way, my solution would really be a helpful starting point.
I didn't have a plan for moving past the first year or two of learning, I think you could learn a ton of basics this way, but once language gets more subtle and varied you'd probably need to do something else entirely.
Also I don't know if this would work with other languages. German is extremely regular.
It's not terrible, though the documentation isn't great.
Used it at my research job to convert English sentences to modal logic formulae and it was an alright experience.
[0] https://www.grammaticalframework.org/
So this is the source card with four possible deletions.
[Alle glücklichen Familien_c1] [sind einander ähnlich_c2]; [aber jede unglückliche Familie_c3] [ist auf ihre besondere Art unglücklich._c4]
And this is one question generated from that card.
[...] sind einander ähnlich; aber jede unglückliche Familie ist auf ihre besondere Art unglücklich.
You could do the same with a grammar textbook but if you use authentic texts I find it more enjoyable. If you want known good translations project Gutenberg has many different translations of classic works and aligning parallel corpora is a solved problem in natural language processing. If you want simple sentence structures you could start with children’s books.
I also used clozes; once you're reading newspapers with high retention I doubt there's much use to what I'd build. I can tell you that clozing children's books does not at all fulfill the same role having done both.
Currently, I'm taking on Japanese. Becoming fluent with this app (or any other single app) is going to be just impossible. In isolation it will be a haphazard collection of phrases picked up at a glacial pace.
The pluses to Duo are huge, though. What some see as repetition to gain master on a mini-subject are of huge benefit compared just seeing the one or two sample sentences in a book, or hearing the same. I have to build sentences with the correct structure and I'm immediately graded and shown the answer.
As a self learner, there was nothing like this thirty years ago. With Japanese, there are particles which mark the different parts of a sentence. Sure, these are all in grammar books, but having them drilled into me and forcing me to construct sentences with them is hugely helpful.
There are lots of complaints that the Japanese course in particular is bad or leads to stilted speech, but at the structural level it seems to agree with the grammar guides and textbooks I'm also using.
Learning Arabic, I had a stack of textbooks three feet high and dozens of cassette tapes. Surely Duolingo replaces a large chunk of these, especially the starter ones.
It isn't good at bulk/breadth, and there is no speaking component.
Edit: I guess I'm saying I'm a huge fan of Duo (and other apps) as an addition to the tools available for learning a language.
Everyone who has learned a language says I need to talk to native speakers, this game is trivia.
[1] https://djtguide.neocities.org/guide.html#Now%20what%20do%20...?
Since friends will be hesitant to correct you when you make a mistake, I recommend iTalki (https://www.italki.com) as it is considerably less inexpensive than in-person lessons/practice.
Before practice I can learn the related grammar and the newly added stories feature and tinycards function is of great help(glean words in context).
I’ve tried DuoLingo for French and I’ve built several language apps myself. I think we’ll eventually get to the point where we can learn new languages from our phones but it will require a lot more content and interaction.
i haven’t updated my core apps in 4 years:
http://appstore.com/h4labs
At the moment I’m merely trying to assist the learning process with simple games:
Word Search:
- https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4labs-word-search/id1311744...
Matching Games:
- https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pictures-and-words/id1459560... - https://itunes.apple.com/sk/app/language-pairs/id1438817614?...
I’m looking for other ideas to build. At the moment, I’m working on a Verb Conjugation Game.
I’m also building Spanish verb rule database on Github:
https://github.com/melling/Spanish_Verbs/blob/master/Conjuga...
You are even using the German typographic conventions for numbers in the wrong language, I'm sure you're well on your way!
> It’s fine for the basics, but there’s no way it’ll make you good enough to, say, start working for a German-language software development company.
Sed cxu vi povas lerni suficxe da Esperanto, ke vi povus labori cxe Esperanta programaro kompanio?
[1] http://www.statisticalconsultants.co.nz/blog/how-the-world-s...
When Duolingo changed the way the skill tree worked a couple (?) of years ago it felt like it became more of a grind. I know they have some pretty smart people working on the app though, so I'm sure they're going in the right direction; but it feels like it's now easier to progress through the tree and the amount of vocab has been reduced, including hiding/simplifying the grammar study. IIRC in the original tree you had things like the "passé composé" introduced sooner, now they appear at a point that I suspect most users will have given up.
FWIW I tried Memrise early on and I didn't like the non-literal approach to the flash cards. I've been using Anki, which has some good decks but they can be questionable - for example the top 500 French words doesn't include the articles with the nouns, not a good thing.
Of course, the biggest things that have contributed to learning: moving to a French speaking country, switching all my devices to French, attending some classes, volunteering in a local gallery where I need to speak and use some vocab I wouldn't usually encounter. Still a long way to go though.
Also this obsession with streak really killing motivation for learning. Someone should send duolingo the article that was on HN front-page few days ago about learning being more effecitve when taking breaks.
[1] https://github.com/archimodels/learning-notes/blob/master/no...
If your target language has any media you enjoy watching (this is hard for me with Mandarin, and to some extent Japanese, since I find most of the TV shows basically unwatchable), consume that with subtitles, and pay a bit of attention at first to how things are said. If you hear a new word or phrase which sounds useful by its translation, repeatedly transcribe the phrase in the target writing system, and get a feel for why it means what it does.
Duolingo is a tool, but just as you should not attempt to build a house with only a carpenter's hammer, you should not attempt to learn a language with only Duolingo.
In the same way that unexamined Ebonics is not just crappy English, unexamined Standard American English is not just crappy English.
Whether you're aware of the underlying rules or not, you're following those rules when you're understood, and you're breaking them when you're not.
Are you saying that as someone that has a good understanding of English grammar?
I was thinking that in the same way have a better knowledge of basic physics or chemistry can help me cook or fix my car, better knowledge of my language could help me understand and be understood.
For example, in one of my previous jobs I received a critique saying I should stop using the passive voice when I write. It's a habit I haven't been able to break and my first draft of anything I write is still very passive. Frankly, I don't have a good idea of what makes something passive on paper.
I have a very strong working understanding of English grammar, but I couldn't recall many of the concepts concepts by name. I think I'm roughly at the same place as you on that matter.
> I should stop using the passive voice when I write.
That is a great idea. For people who have trouble sticking to habits, I always suggest using a tool like http://hemingwayapp.com/
Tools like this give you practice recognizing patterns you don't want to see in your writing. People I've suggested it to have found it very useful.
That's pretty neat. Thanks for the link.
I ran my previous comment through it and my comment requires an 8th grade reading level and was scored as good.
My paragraph that starts "I was thinking" is marked as very hard to read. My "For example" sentence is hard to read. I used one adverb (frankly), and used the passive voice once (be understood). I'm not sure I see the problem with be understood.
Coming here to this website, I am able to enjoy a style of coherent communication where your arguments must be well-grounded and logically sound. In the relatively rare cases of applying personal bias while questioning the claims of others, you do so with much softer words and phrases.
For example, something like "I'd like to pretend that the issue is..." is a construct which can be translated to Bulgarian with a very similar grammatical construction, but it is virtually unused and would be considered outrageously snobbish and pretentious when used. We would just say "the issue is...".
I also have found The Chairman's Bao (news, curated and graded by HSK level, together with pinyin, vocabulary, grammar points and questions associated with each piece of news) and various Coursera courses helpful.
There is also plenty of crappy apps and resources around, and probably much better resources than the current ones will be made, but if one chooses well, it's amazing how easier it is to learn a language now than ten years ago. Getting to any nontrivial level of Mandarin Chinese was all but impossible without classes, now it's doable.
She loves Harry Potter so much that after reading the whole series in Romanian, she started to read the first volume in English. Didn't finish that either, but managed to read about 100 pages of it and she said that after 30-40 pages, it became substantially easier to understand.
Now she's among top 3 students, if not the first, in her class at English, outpacing colleagues who take 2-3 hours weekly of extra English lessons, without having a single paid English lesson.
Duolingo might not teach you how to speak a language fluently, but it definitely can give you a headstart in learning one.
She's not able to speak English fluently yet, but she's able to watch TV series without subtitles and she's able to actually communicate with other English speaking people when visiting other countries.
That's a remarkable jump, to make that claim based on some rough assessment of a single person.
I didn't have duolingo but I still outperformed most of my colleagues who were in extracurricular English. What can I conclude from that?
Also, we can discuss, but we should be aware that we can draw little to no conclusions.
Here in the US, we go hard on repeated rote memorization and mastery of minute things that don't matter as much.
"Did wet streets cause rain or did rain cause wet streets" Did 100 lessons of treatment (duolingo) cause her to become proficient in English or are children with a natural proficiency towards language the ones that survive the treatment?
If only the strongest people survive having their blood drawn by leeches, it doesn't mean that leeches make you strong. Despite there being a high correlation in treatment outcome.
If it's too easy, then I found I'll look up the same words every time because it's too easy-come-easy-go.