> Twitter, predictably, immediately dysregulated in response.
This a rant, but I hate this trend of taking what a couple/few people say and calling it "Twitter" or "everyone is saying" or "people are calling for" or "the Internet hates". Reference the actual person who said the comment and don't lump millions of users in with the comments of a few. Whenever I dig into an issue like this, I find maybe a handful of comments when the topic itself is seen by thousands/millions.
This started a long time ago, I remember during the Bush/Gore election the media using "some people say" as a intro to a topic, as if those words validated the entire thing and had to be responded to. Might have started earlier as well but I didn't watch much US news before that.
It lets them constantly drag anything out of proportion. Very often articles are written titled "Xs are Ying", where less than 1% of Xs are even considered to begin with. This is BuzzFeed (not that they're even a worse offender than most others at this point), what does one expect?
It frustrates me how often arguments like these are made without considering the economic conditions which led to publishers adopting this clickbait behavior.
When the internet came in and destroyed print subscriptions and tech giants like FB/Google started controlling online advertising, getting clicks became the way to make money. We really only have ourselves to blame for choosing ad-driven media content at the expense of new dark patterns that help to prop the system up.
I hate clickbait headlines too, but they work. A/B testing shows publishers that they work.
What should a publisher do to create less sensational content without sacrificing revenue?
Don't forget people rejecting subscriptions and demanding the journalism for free.
But it wasn't the internet and Google alone. It was greed, and the elevation of media properties as shareholder golden geese. They saw exponential returns in the late 90's. When revenue slowed, they lost favour with their new corporate owners and were alike choked that way.
Going non-clickbaity is not only about sacrificing revenue: it's also about sacrificing readership. Even if your only goal is readership, living in a world where the competition employs click-bait means your hands are somewhat forced.
THIS. This is "Twitter Moments" in a nutshell, and it drives me absolutely crazy. It may be the most toxic "news-source", in my opinion, because of this. It takes a handful of tweets (usually not even verified accounts), and tries to make mountains out of molehills. It tries to drive narratives based on trends of a few "loud" users, and it's so deceiving. It rarely paints a full picture, and it tries so hard to manipulate you into believing these 12 or so tweets are the majority. And because it refreshes so quickly, they have no reason to correct things that end up being wrong, or clarify clickbait-esq topics when more info comes around.
I once did the research on an article with a title in the format "X group is outraged over Y's comment on twitter" and when I found the original post I found no outrage and at most just a mild dissatisfaction.
Except it's not. It's like every other Internet platform: it's the vocal minority, the 10% of the 10%. The average monetizeable Twitter user doesn't know/give a shit about this twttr redesign.
Yes.
Or when the opinion: "group x are idiots for having opinion y." is hundreds of times more common than someone actually claiming to be an x with opinion y.
Political discussion in a nutshell. It's always possible to find some idiot who happens to belong to group X and holds opinion Y, and then use that to tar the rest of the group.
I can picture a perfect Improv Everywhere scene: a bunch of people get together and practice/research statements that make them sound like they hold awful opinion Y. Then, they sneak into a political debate, or a protest that has a counter-protest... on both sides. And then they all simultaneously try to call the other group out [with the other people they came with as their specific examples] for having opinion Y.
Its a natural consequence of wanting to inflate your position when you have little to no personal authority on the matter, and essentially stealing 'authority' by supporting what amounts to an angry mob on the internet. "One person thinks this" has never really been a valuable commodity, unless that one person has some kind of name recognition.
It's used as a proxy for American opinion by journalists, and it's probably the worst possible proxy you could use. Only 22% of Americans use the site, and of those users 10% are responsible for 80% of tweets. Why do we care about the opinions of the loudest 2% of the population? Twitter could be blowing up according to active users, but you step outside and none of that affects you or the world at all. Everything keeps on ticking like nothings happened.
> "....learn about how not having [likes and retweets] could potentially change how people read things,” How does that change the way you interact in a conversation? That’s super interesting.”
So basically, a bunch of tiny iterative UX changes that won't move the needle one bit. This is the company where moving from from 140 to 280 chars happened over the course of a decade.
I feel for the product people, they are working with one hand tied behind their backs. Twitter is tailor-made for drama and outrage; nobody would be on the platform if it wasn't primarily a promotional channel; otherwise it'd just be you sending your thoughts into the void.
The way Twitter currently is is because that's the balance they struck between a microblogging platform and something you can actually make money with/on. Lowest-common-denominator content is the only thing that can generate enough eyeballs to pique the interest of fly-by-night T-shirt companies and diet pill peddlers who buy ads on it.
I'm not super optimistic about the changes, but getting rid of like/rt counts is not even close to a "tiny iterative ux change". Those counts are absolutely central to the way users interact with and understand conversation on the site. Getting rid of them completely is a massive sea change in the conversational dynamics.
Seriously, we have nearly 20 years of evidence at this point showing that, if you associate something with users’ online identities that looks like a score, they will treat it as such and start looking for ways to outscore everyone else.
> Those counts are absolutely central to the way users interact with and understand conversation on the site.
Maybe so, but the numbers won't be hidden to the algorithm, which ultimately decides which retweets and "high-engagement" posts to show you on the timeline. I would think that has a much bigger influence on the conversation. You won't reply to something if it never makes it to your feed in the first place.
"It's been an incredible journey... thanks to all the Russian hackers, spambots, intractable ideologues and lazy journalists on a deadline who've helped make Twitter such a special place these past 13 years..."
I think this is a very important point. Even when an individual user can opt-out via settings, the societal-level impact is almost entirely determined by the defaults.
It's not just that. Timelines are generally unavoidably toxic. It's not going to stop people from retweeting things and then shouting about it, or writing condescending, smug threads starting with "We need to talk about ...".
We need to talk about people who think the phrase 'we need to talk about...' is a fruitful way to start a conversation when "In my opinion" is probably more welcoming and conducive opening to a discussion that doesn't turn into ideological jousting right from the start.
If you have a relatively-short, curated list of people you want to see posts from, I suggest adding them to a list and viewing your "feed" that way. I've been using lists over the home page/feed for a few months and my experience w/ Twitter has been much better. Only posts from the people you've explicitly chosen to get posts from, which also means zero ads (at least on desktop).
I used to follow a couple hundred journalists/researchers etc. "real people" and eventually moved to curating each segment through different accounts and allowing each account to assimilate into the communities instead of a clusterfuck of interests in one timeline (yes i know lists exist but like fb groups it doesnt really serve the purpose of exploring content, not as easily at least)
its been relaxing, carefully curating people that complain/add negativity to my feed out and adding more interesting accounts as time goes on
I never (no longer, that is) see tweets that other people like. I think there is a setting to disable them from appearing now. At the very least, whenever one appears you can click the little arrow next to it and select "see less often" (or equivalent).
That's why someone bought this domain [0] which redirects to a search excluding tweets [1] not authored by the people you follow. It's way sparser for me (I follow roughly 200 people) than the regular twitter feed so I also waste way less time whether procrastinating or looking for tweets by people I actually follow. I deleted "twitter.com" from my browser history and always start at realtwitter.com now.
I always found this so weird. They themselves provide a literal "retweet" option, but then treat likes almost the same as retweets. What's the point of having both then??
because publishing business behave like an AI that fixed the goal of increasing revenue as optimizing for engagement... instead of paperclip production.
I actually like the feature that shows likes from people I follow. I also like the non-chronological timeline.
To me, both these features reduce the frustration inherent in Twitter's over-abundant timeline where you know you're missing out on 95% of stuff because there's no time to scroll through the whole thing. I know I'm still missing out on 95%, but it feels more prioritized.
Funny, I don't see any liked tweets. Either the handful of people I'm following don't like anything, or there's a switch somewhere that I've flipped without paying attention, because now I can't find it.
According to that logic I should follow every single person I agree with as well. Which is silly, and I should not be encouraged to block every person I disagree with.
The like button exists for a reason. It's a simple interactive button to register my positive feeling towards a given statement. That exists unto it self. Why should a dislike button not exist as well? With no way of showing disagreement with a statement, people take to words and that's why they're yelling at each other. There's no other outlet.
The reason they're not putting in a dislike button is because negativity feeds tweet activity.
I never said anything about agreeing or disagreeing. I suggested unfollowing/blocking someone if you dislike their tweets. Your timeline only has posts written by or endorsed by people you choose to follow. If you don't like what they are writing or endorsing, you don't have to keep them on your timeline. There's no rule that says you have to listen to "people tak[ing] to words and... yelling at each other"; you have the option to stop listening. You are in control of your timeline.
Also, if you want to get rid of posts people you follow liked, most (if not all) 3rd-party apps don't show them. Some apps like Tweetbot and Twitteriffic even allow you to remove tweets with specific words from your timeline, or filter retweets.
On HN there is a downvote button, but no block button, so its not a great comparison. If you just dislike someone on twitter, you would still see the user's new posts. If you dislike what they are saying in the present, do you still want to see what they're saying in the future?
There definitely is a down vote button. It's the negative sign next to the [username]|[time]
You're thinking of this in too black or white. What if an author I follow posts something dumb? Do I then unfollow them? Why is it too much to ask to simply click dislike just like I would for something I like?
> There definitely is a down vote button. It's the negative sign next to the [username]|[time]
I said the opposite: "On HN there is a downvote button, but no block button"
> What if an author I follow posts something dumb? Do I then unfollow them?
If they keep posting posting content you don't like, then yes. Your timeline isn't going to change unless you change it.
> Why is it too much to ask to simply click dislike just like I would for something I like?
Because it won't do anything. A dislike would just be another number on a post next to the like and retweet counters, which are (supposedly) a major cause of the toxicity on Twitter.
I think the reality on Twitter is that only a very few people are unhappy and outraged and a very many people without the strong emotions empathise and amplify it.
This is actively encouraged and labeled in some groups by "being a good ally" for example.
But to what end? The end result of all this for me has been that I simply quit Twitter. And here's the thing: I generally agree with them, but it's so annoying I can't even engage with them anymore. So sure, maybe they're amplifying somebody's message, but I'm no longer there to hear it, no matter how loud it is. They're mostly just shouting at each other at this point.
I feel like there's a mental illness the entire world is seemingly ignoring, whose symptom is constant, floating disgust and contempt and despise. The ability to be offended by anything, because it's not the stimulus that offended you; you were already offended as an equilibrium state.
Let me attempt to describe this mentality as a recipe (because I don't have a good name for it, but I'm sure you can recognize it): start by imagining clinical depression. Keep the "everything in the world sucks" part, but remove the part where you consider "everything" to include you. (This isn't narcissism; you don't think you're all that great. You just aren't down on yourself. You think of yourself in a normal, healthy way.) Then, take the parts of depression where you have no energy and don't experience any emotional affect, and replace those with a sliding scale from "neutral" to "panicked shouting." (Which isn't real panic, per se; it's just a very loud simulated fight-or-flight response, without any real fear or traumatic recall behind it.)
An increasing number of people are like this. Nobody notices these people as unusual at all. This used to be rare enough to caricature; it was the "I want to speak to your manager" mom. But everyone is like that now. Every age group has these people in equal numbers. What... happened?
Outrage culture is nothing new. Orwell wrote about it, in 1984 outrage culture in Oceana was boiled down to a daily 'two minutes of hate.' It's just moved to twitter rather than the dinner table or the work cafeteria or other meeting places, where you might see the same circular outrage opinions although perhaps with more restraint. The trope of 'racist grandpa' goes back a while, for example.
That said, when everyone you know or follow is echoing the same thing, there's a sense of entitlement that builds. That you are entitled to outrage, and now with social media you have a platform to echo like minded opinions from the hilltop. It's easy to forget that you inhabit an echo chamber on the internet (1), and all too tempting to equate it into a worldwide crusade. You used to have to earn a platform through persuasive arguments or hard earned authority and expertise.
I’m not sure this is the entirety of the explanation. It seems that being default-disgusted has passed some sort of threshold of social acceptability, where it’s no longer something you are friends with someone despite, and become something that you befriend people because of.
I see people voicing their opinions on the things they hate on blogs, social networks, dating sites—and successfully connecting with others who hate the same things! This was not a thing even ten years ago. Making your “about you” on any social system a list of things you hate would have been seen, as recently as 2010, as an uncouth mistake by someone who has no emotional intelligence. (Even if you’re also someone who hates the same things, you’d understand that doing this is a sign of a general willingness to violate social norms, and so feel vaguely put off by the person.) But, these days, it’s not a mistake to present yourself this way; there’s no penalty to doing it, only benefits.
I think what this might be, is the final death within Western “Christian-descended atheist/agnostic” culture of the social mores that were inherited from religion, e.g. the idea that wrath is a sin that you should feel bad for embodying, and at least shouldn’t advertise in public as a positive aspect of yourself. (I say this because I suspect—though I’m not sure—that this change isn’t nearly as pronounced in Western religious communities.)
>The entire episode was a microcosm of Twitter’s larger problems [...] everyone yelling, and no one talking
This isn't meant as a dig at Twitter, but humans simply have limits to how many active participants a conversation can have at any one time. If people start talking on twitter instead of yelling, engagement metrics are going to drop through the floor.
In your experience, how many people can be in a room and all participate in one conversation before they split into more than one group, or an audience/panel dynamic forms? Twitter's design is such that there are so many silent participants to every interaction, that any conversation is stressed to the breaking point if even a tiny percent of them choose to say anything.
I don't understand what jornos think twitter is and/or could be. As far as I can tell, they want themselves and celebrities to post self-promotion and overton-window-approved nonsense care-free, and then have the crowd act as a mass of sycophantic yes-men.
Personally, I would let users decide for themselves if they want to see metrics at all, as well as favorites, retweets, and replies from other accounts. That way, they wouldn't be forced to come across content from people they've never intended to see. Just get new users through a quick tour in which all these options are showcased and be transparent in regards to what they do.
Dorsey (from the article) : “I also don’t feel good about how Twitter tends to incentivize outrage, fast takes, short term thinking, echo chambers, and fragmented conversation and consideration.”
But what has he done to fix the problem, besides tiny UX tweaks that go nowhere, and the occasional ban of a highly visible jerk? Twitter is on fire, and he just plods along.
Dorsey, in this article, is about as believable as Mark Zuckerberg saying "we have to get serious about privacy."
The prototype that the article mentions exemplifies this attitude. Twitter needs to reinvent itself, but the prototype offers tiny fixes - threaded replies and helpful profile cards. These are needed, but does anyone really think they are going to solve outrage on twitter?
The outrage problem is the product of twitter's core design. It combines 2-way conversations with a context-free public soapbox and rewards comments that make people nod in agreement. Solving this would mean redefining what twitter is.
Dorsey won't do that, and so he's not serious about the problem. Maybe he can't be serious because it would hurt their profits. The best we can do is delete our accounts, disinvest, and hope twitter burns to the ground.
He doesn't feel good about it, but he also has to watch the bottom line. The only group he really fears are those to whom he owes a profit.
It's better if we don't make CEOs responsible for fixing our social problems. We have to do that ourselves. They will follow along ("give the people what they want")
> It's better if we don't make CEOs responsible for fixing our social problems. We have to do that ourselves. They will follow along ("give the people what they want")
CEOs are a subset of "we," and are in positions where their decisions have impact disproportional to their numbers.
All companies become 'slow and lumbering' once they pass a certain size. I cant think of any exception off the top of my head. Once you have the welfare of thousands of people in your hand, you tend to not take any risks. Seems like a normal human response to me...
I've long had the sense that Twitter's leaders (including, but not limited to, Dorsey) feel deep down that they don't really understand why anyone actually uses Twitter. They have this product, some people seem to like it, but none of them could explain to you why they like it. They're baffled by the appeal of their own product.
Which leads to an incredible amount of change aversion; if you have no idea what it is about your product that people like, you're naturally going to be terrified of changing anything, for fear that you might punch a hole in the wrong place and let all the magic leak out.
Unfortunately, I don’t think this is really an issue that can be fixed technically. People go to Twitter to yell at each other; that’s basically the point of the platform. A Twitter where people don’t yell at each other is basically Mastodon, which is a lovely network that basically nobody uses.
It seems to work well enough for the people who are on it -- and that's enough, really. One-place-for-everyone isn't the goal. "Basically nobody" compared to Twitter can still be pretty sizable.
People don't yell at each other in Mastodon precisely because so few people use it (besides, I've already seen Twitter-like behavior there, mainly on the mastodon.social instance). If mastodon had the same amount of users it would be the same, if not worse, because there's no centralized moderation to lean on.
Mastodon seems fixated on emulating Twitter without questioning if there's anything worth keeping.
This is why the instance I'm on mutes mastodon.social. Interaction quality spiked after that. It works with small numbers and good communities. I have several small instances on my personal mute list because the admins brought all the worst Twitter behavior over. That sets a negative tone and ensures only negative people get invited in.
> I don’t think this is really an issue that can be fixed technically.
It’s really easy to bet that something is impossible. It sounds smart, because all of history confirms your theory.
But history is also chock full of people doing things that didn’t seem possible, so personally I think you’re making a very bad bet.
And I wonder why you are even doing it? What’s gained by trying to convince people that there are zero viable interventions in a specific corner of the solution space? Especially such a big corner as “all technical interventions”?
A few years ago I went to Twitter to see what my friends were doing, and to talk to them. There wasn’t much yelling.
Then Gamergate happened and people started yelling about it, and then that grew into the alt-right and that got more yelling, and then Trump got elected and it’s just been so much yelling.
And now here I am mostly on Mastodon, where there’s next to no celebrities, brands, or other things to yell at, and it’s pretty nice.
There really is a sub-network within Twitter of people who only ever have nice, productive conversations with one-another.
This sub-network seems to have a lot of overlap with the set of people who use their Twitter handle as a substitute for an email address—i.e. the people who want you to tweet at them if you want to collaborate with them on something. Which itself is vaguely overlapping the set of people who are "famous", but not celebrities—i.e. people who are well-known names in their own industries or hobbies.
Very true, especially in the emergency medicine and critical care world where entire conferences and movements are organized around hashtags (like #foamed or #medtwitter). It's too bad Twitter doesn't give it's users tools to screen out bad actors and accentuate the positive.
> Over several days this spring, BuzzFeed News met with Twitter’s leadership and watched as twttr’s team worked on its first big push: helping people better understand what’s being said in often chaotic conversations. The team thinks that if people took more time to read entire conversations, that would help improve their comprehension of them.
I had assumed that Twitter was aware of the implications of its design for conversation and had decided that the controversy boost to engagement numbers was worth creating a toxic environment. For real, consider these two basic elements of Twitter's design. First, any given post has a low maximum length, so any time you want to say more than a sentence or two it needs to be spread over multiple posts (a "tweetstorm"). Second, Twitter has two separate features that let anyone pull any part of a series of posts out of its original context: retweeting and quote-tweeting.
Yeah, I don't get this at all. I think it's even deeper than designing for controversy. I'm "older" (40s), though I work on products used by younger people, so I don't think this is just me being old, but I can't follow a conversation on twitter at all. When there's a link from HackerNews to Twitter, I click on it and sometimes see the thing mentioned in the HN title, and sometimes don't. Then there's a bunch of stuff below it, some of which is definitely replies to the original post, and some of which appears to be part of a completely different conversation. Some threads of conversations get cut off for no apparent reason and you have to click something to see more of them. Nothing is indented, so it's really hard to tell who's replying to whom.
I basically can't understand a thread on Twitter, so I've never signed up because who the hell wants to be part of that? I usually also don't go to Twitter to read stuff other people link to because I'm not going to be able to follow it. Forget boosting controversial stuff, I bet a lot of users post the way they do because they also don't understand what they're looking at.
I'm a similar age as you. I did create a Twitter account once, but never used it more than once or twice.
Unfortunately the Twitter username (handle?) I chose happened to be the same as the name of a somewhat well-known RnB/Hip Hop video producer (who I had no knowledge of before I created the account).
I signed in a year or two later and found that I had a couple of hundred follow requests from various aspiring and up-and-coming rap artists. At that point I realised in all honesty that I probably had no real use for Twitter.
I've never understood the appeal of Twitter. Today I read Spacex and Musk talking about Starlink on twitter and I could not fathom who was talking to who, it seems like abunch of random statements with tons of animated gifs and stupid jokes. How does anyone navigate that mess?
People say such stupid things. And spend so much time writing it out and finding a gif and ... for what? It's just noise. What motivates them? When do they find the time? What are they hoping to achieve? That Elon Musk replies with a lol.
Couldn't Twitter just look at your last 40 posts and if no one has interacted with you then it just deletes your account. Sorry buddy, no one cares.
I don’t think Twitter understands threads on Twitter, and they never have. They built something over a decade ago, it took off for reasons they never fully could fathom, and they’ve been afraid ever since to futz with what for them has been a good thing.
Once upon a time, there was IRC for single-stream chats, and NNTP for threaded ones, and all was good. Twitter used to be one of the former, but then they noticed that users were using the "@name" convention to simulate replies, and started officially supporting it. Instead of a single conversation, or a tree of nested replies, they created some unholy thing partway between the two, that serves neither role well.
Twitter threads are a tree, but the representation in Twitter's web interface and mobile apps is linear and it's not obvious which tweets are in response to which. There are hints in the interface if you're aware of them, but it's easy to get lost.
I'm afraid the reality is probably that you just don't have the motivation to figure it out, for whatever reason. No mass-market product like Twitter could succeed if it was as confusing as you say it is.
There's also the fact that a subset of computer programmer types have low tolerance for all sorts of "noisy" things that the average person doesn't have a problem with.
IRC is fine for conversations, though it's a different model of conversation than many mediums. All comments from different threads of conversation are intermixed, and you must separate them out mentally.
This is very different from threaded models, but it's something that can be adapted to easily enough, same as how most people can talk within a group in a noisy bar, where there are multiple surrounding intelligible conversations. Like in a bar, it's easy to jump into another adjacent conversation spontaneously.
I'd separate use cases. If you want to talk to/about yourself or if you just want to rant at somebody, post memes, etc then Twitter is easy and natural to use. If you want to have meaningful nuanced conversation, Twitter is useless. So you end up with a dichotomy where for some people Twitter is a fine fit and for others it's completely unusable. Both are correct.
I'm actually a Twitter user, and I think this is a very jaundiced opinion. I have a lot of different interests and following people on Twitter is a very good grapevine system. Math twitter is a good place, for example. A lot of people are very enthusiastic about how it has enriched their mathematical diet. There are many good people on Twitter who use it for serious sharing of ideas in other fields as well.
In general, it's a good way for people to share thoughts and links to a diverse audience. Liking Twitter isn't a sign of foolishness. Among the social networks, it's not as gross and corporate as FB, or as superficial as Instagram.
Your dismissal of the reasons why people might like Twitter, the implicit claim that it's useless for sophisticated people like yourself, and the apparent desire to impose black and white dichotomies on the world risks making you into a candidate for the category of "just wanting to rant at somebody".
We know that HN has its own serious cultural problems, after all.
This is why I use https://threadreaderapp.com on tweetstorms. Kinda silly, but it's the only way to properly read threads, as even Twitter itself seems to mess up the ordering.
Twitter, reddit, slack and others are meant for constant asynchronous engagement, mostly by schoolkids, and not random access or long-lived discussion. Coming from the message board world, the difference in the attention spans involved is pretty frustrating.
I had the same problem with Twitter too. The posts and replies seemed random and without any structure and I didn't really get it. But after I spent a few weeks using it, it started making sense and I would browse posts and replies without too much effort.
I think it just takes a while for new people to get Twitter. Probably most people don't even know why Twitter is confusing initially because they are so used to it.
I used blame twitter for creating at outrage culture.
But then I realized I had it backwards. There have always been people who find it fun to vent outrage, moral indignity, and condescension. They just got it from TV blowhards before.
You had it right the first time, I think. There have always been those things, but then Twitter gave them a place to coalesce and then kept adding features like like metrics and quote tweeting that made all of those behaviors easier in the name of 'engagement' and VC metrics.
Headline junkies more like. Nearly every linked article reddit thread has a comment along the lines of "No one read the article." Twitter is even worse about this.
TV was one-way - at most, you could "reshare" what you heard with friends or colleagues, with a very limited bandwidth and a more considerable effort.
Today, we have created tech that makes it easy and convenient. If you look at practically all social networks, they're essentially optimized for outrage gossip. The human part of that equation is much more difficult to change - as social primates, we have this moral outrage thing hardwired to some extent. But why do we deliberately encourage it?
Social media offered everyone the megaphone and now everyone feels obligated to reiterate their own copycat opinion as a result. People can't even read longform anymore. Share an informative NYT article to someone, and they will complain about the wall of text despite it being a 5 min read that gives you much more nuance to an issue than 280 characters ever could. Signal to noise has never been lower on the internet.
Twitter by design encourages trite / curt posts that have to be outlandish to get any attention. Nuance and understanding are not encouraged ... just based on how the whole thing works.
Why not add an ability for the author of the parent tweet to censor the tweets they please and other users can tap on 'show tweets hidden by author under this tweet'. End of story, people who are into the crazy discussions can see it, authors can control and censor as they please and Twitter washes it's hands by saying that the censoring is done on the personal level.
Solution: people pay to use twitter. Kill advertising as the main model.
Either Twitter will do this or the future decentralized apps will do this naturally through micropayments of having to pay for compute through the network.
I see a distributed p2p database that costs money to interact with and anyone can build a client for it. Go ahead, build a client - maybe it's free, maybe it costs money because it uses the protocol really well and people like it the UX. Hell, maybe even the client has advertisements in it. Either way interacting with the actual content costs money and that will naturally bring in a balance of information. Right now we have information asymmetry exploited by advertising.
This gets suggested as the solution to privacy/junk content/etc for every social platform - why have none of them (that I am aware of) adopted this model?
If you look at it a certain way, this is what email was before ISPs and bigcorps gave away email addresses; everyone who had an email address was paying their sysadmin for the privilege of having one (through their tuition at a university that has email services, or through the cost-center of the company they work for.) In either of those cases, people were more careful with email, because postmasters were easily angered (and this was, in turn, because causing trouble could actually get your system kicked off the network!)
In modern times, people pay to use Slack. It'd be interesting to study the sociology of paid Slack groups (as compared to free Slack groups, or as compared to any other free-for-everyone group chat platform.)
I've always thought it'd be a cool idea to have a group chat platform where, rather than some admin owning the group and maybe paying, the group has a tip-jar and anyone/everyone in the group can contribute. (Twitch sort of works like this, but you're really donating to the channel owner, not to the group itself. In my hypothetical model, there is no channel owner; the group persists because at least some of the user-base want it to, and so pay for it to.)
Today, you learned about Something Awful[0], a social forum that charges a nominal fee for accounts[1]. After being banned by administrators, a rule-breaker must pay another fee if they wish to be reinstated.
It's not going so well, maybe because there's no recurring fees. Lowtax had to start a patreon after some medical bills lately.
Not sure what the atmosphere is like these days, but the admins were always so constantly mad for no reason you couldn't even post in a thread next to them or they'd ban you. They have real bad irony poisoning.
Shooting from the hip but—VC. Specifically, valuation models and investment horizons for social networking services that run on UGC.
The totally free ad-supported model is really the only one that has the potential to generate both the user growth and ARPU growth to create those 10x-1000x exits, and do so within a reasonable horizon for the fund that's investing in the company. If you start a service that costs money to the end user, you remove the addiction to engagement to drive ARPU, but you risk cratering your user growth, or at least set your growth on a scale that will be unimpressive at best for venture backers.
So platforms stay free and tolerate those community problems, because the user growth is attractive, and if you can make the ad dollars work, you can show good revenue potential and get that spicy multiple.
One issue is there's a huge number of fake/bot accounts on the site that won't be subscribing. Since twitter is a public company, shareholders would not be pleased with loosing a huge swath of user base as it would indicate they've been deceived on the scope of their investment the whole time.
Megan Phelps-Roper grew up in the Westboro Baptist "Church", that cult that protests with offensive homophobic signs outside soldier funerals and such. She went on Twitter. She got yelled at on Twitter. She started thinking that maybe what she'd been taught was wrong. She grew in understanding of the impact she was having on the world and she left the 'church', taking her sister with her.
If Twitter had gotten people to stop yelling at each other earlier, there would be 2 more protestors outside soldier funerals chanting hateful and homophobic mantras. Keep that in mind while supporting an end to the yelling.
Twitter is one of the last gasps of the anonymous shit-posting that pervaded internet communities before everything got all Web 2.0 and your grandmother got a Facebook page.
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[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 227 ms ] threadThis a rant, but I hate this trend of taking what a couple/few people say and calling it "Twitter" or "everyone is saying" or "people are calling for" or "the Internet hates". Reference the actual person who said the comment and don't lump millions of users in with the comments of a few. Whenever I dig into an issue like this, I find maybe a handful of comments when the topic itself is seen by thousands/millions.
Blame the US electorate.
Not the first, but the first that came to my mind...
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Enquirer
When the internet came in and destroyed print subscriptions and tech giants like FB/Google started controlling online advertising, getting clicks became the way to make money. We really only have ourselves to blame for choosing ad-driven media content at the expense of new dark patterns that help to prop the system up.
I hate clickbait headlines too, but they work. A/B testing shows publishers that they work.
What should a publisher do to create less sensational content without sacrificing revenue?
Don't forget people rejecting subscriptions and demanding the journalism for free.
But it wasn't the internet and Google alone. It was greed, and the elevation of media properties as shareholder golden geese. They saw exponential returns in the late 90's. When revenue slowed, they lost favour with their new corporate owners and were alike choked that way.
It's a valid proxy for sentiment (in the majority of cases).
https://www.pewinternet.org/2019/04/24/sizing-up-twitter-use...
https://www.pewinternet.org/2019/04/24/sizing-up-twitter-use...
So basically, a bunch of tiny iterative UX changes that won't move the needle one bit. This is the company where moving from from 140 to 280 chars happened over the course of a decade.
I feel for the product people, they are working with one hand tied behind their backs. Twitter is tailor-made for drama and outrage; nobody would be on the platform if it wasn't primarily a promotional channel; otherwise it'd just be you sending your thoughts into the void.
The way Twitter currently is is because that's the balance they struck between a microblogging platform and something you can actually make money with/on. Lowest-common-denominator content is the only thing that can generate enough eyeballs to pique the interest of fly-by-night T-shirt companies and diet pill peddlers who buy ads on it.
Seriously, we have nearly 20 years of evidence at this point showing that, if you associate something with users’ online identities that looks like a score, they will treat it as such and start looking for ways to outscore everyone else.
Maybe so, but the numbers won't be hidden to the algorithm, which ultimately decides which retweets and "high-engagement" posts to show you on the timeline. I would think that has a much bigger influence on the conversation. You won't reply to something if it never makes it to your feed in the first place.
"It's been an incredible journey... thanks to all the Russian hackers, spambots, intractable ideologues and lazy journalists on a deadline who've helped make Twitter such a special place these past 13 years..."
More generally, discourage large conversations and encourage fragmentation.
There's already a way to do this: use any third-party client. You even get the added bonus of a reverse-chronological timeline!
its been relaxing, carefully curating people that complain/add negativity to my feed out and adding more interesting accounts as time goes on
[0] http://realtwitter.com
[1] https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=filter%3Afollows -filter%3Areplies&src=typd
Doesn't that encourage bubbles?
To me, both these features reduce the frustration inherent in Twitter's over-abundant timeline where you know you're missing out on 95% of stuff because there's no time to scroll through the whole thing. I know I'm still missing out on 95%, but it feels more prioritized.
Sounds like Facebook.
The like button exists for a reason. It's a simple interactive button to register my positive feeling towards a given statement. That exists unto it self. Why should a dislike button not exist as well? With no way of showing disagreement with a statement, people take to words and that's why they're yelling at each other. There's no other outlet.
The reason they're not putting in a dislike button is because negativity feeds tweet activity.
Also, if you want to get rid of posts people you follow liked, most (if not all) 3rd-party apps don't show them. Some apps like Tweetbot and Twitteriffic even allow you to remove tweets with specific words from your timeline, or filter retweets.
You're thinking of this in too black or white. What if an author I follow posts something dumb? Do I then unfollow them? Why is it too much to ask to simply click dislike just like I would for something I like?
I said the opposite: "On HN there is a downvote button, but no block button"
> What if an author I follow posts something dumb? Do I then unfollow them?
If they keep posting posting content you don't like, then yes. Your timeline isn't going to change unless you change it.
> Why is it too much to ask to simply click dislike just like I would for something I like?
Because it won't do anything. A dislike would just be another number on a post next to the like and retweet counters, which are (supposedly) a major cause of the toxicity on Twitter.
This is actively encouraged and labeled in some groups by "being a good ally" for example.
Let me attempt to describe this mentality as a recipe (because I don't have a good name for it, but I'm sure you can recognize it): start by imagining clinical depression. Keep the "everything in the world sucks" part, but remove the part where you consider "everything" to include you. (This isn't narcissism; you don't think you're all that great. You just aren't down on yourself. You think of yourself in a normal, healthy way.) Then, take the parts of depression where you have no energy and don't experience any emotional affect, and replace those with a sliding scale from "neutral" to "panicked shouting." (Which isn't real panic, per se; it's just a very loud simulated fight-or-flight response, without any real fear or traumatic recall behind it.)
An increasing number of people are like this. Nobody notices these people as unusual at all. This used to be rare enough to caricature; it was the "I want to speak to your manager" mom. But everyone is like that now. Every age group has these people in equal numbers. What... happened?
That said, when everyone you know or follow is echoing the same thing, there's a sense of entitlement that builds. That you are entitled to outrage, and now with social media you have a platform to echo like minded opinions from the hilltop. It's easy to forget that you inhabit an echo chamber on the internet (1), and all too tempting to equate it into a worldwide crusade. You used to have to earn a platform through persuasive arguments or hard earned authority and expertise.
1. https://www.pewinternet.org/2019/04/24/sizing-up-twitter-use...
I see people voicing their opinions on the things they hate on blogs, social networks, dating sites—and successfully connecting with others who hate the same things! This was not a thing even ten years ago. Making your “about you” on any social system a list of things you hate would have been seen, as recently as 2010, as an uncouth mistake by someone who has no emotional intelligence. (Even if you’re also someone who hates the same things, you’d understand that doing this is a sign of a general willingness to violate social norms, and so feel vaguely put off by the person.) But, these days, it’s not a mistake to present yourself this way; there’s no penalty to doing it, only benefits.
I think what this might be, is the final death within Western “Christian-descended atheist/agnostic” culture of the social mores that were inherited from religion, e.g. the idea that wrath is a sin that you should feel bad for embodying, and at least shouldn’t advertise in public as a positive aspect of yourself. (I say this because I suspect—though I’m not sure—that this change isn’t nearly as pronounced in Western religious communities.)
Word of the day: "despisal", noun form of "despise".
This isn't meant as a dig at Twitter, but humans simply have limits to how many active participants a conversation can have at any one time. If people start talking on twitter instead of yelling, engagement metrics are going to drop through the floor.
In your experience, how many people can be in a room and all participate in one conversation before they split into more than one group, or an audience/panel dynamic forms? Twitter's design is such that there are so many silent participants to every interaction, that any conversation is stressed to the breaking point if even a tiny percent of them choose to say anything.
I don't understand what jornos think twitter is and/or could be. As far as I can tell, they want themselves and celebrities to post self-promotion and overton-window-approved nonsense care-free, and then have the crowd act as a mass of sycophantic yes-men.
But what has he done to fix the problem, besides tiny UX tweaks that go nowhere, and the occasional ban of a highly visible jerk? Twitter is on fire, and he just plods along.
Dorsey, in this article, is about as believable as Mark Zuckerberg saying "we have to get serious about privacy."
The prototype that the article mentions exemplifies this attitude. Twitter needs to reinvent itself, but the prototype offers tiny fixes - threaded replies and helpful profile cards. These are needed, but does anyone really think they are going to solve outrage on twitter?
The outrage problem is the product of twitter's core design. It combines 2-way conversations with a context-free public soapbox and rewards comments that make people nod in agreement. Solving this would mean redefining what twitter is.
Dorsey won't do that, and so he's not serious about the problem. Maybe he can't be serious because it would hurt their profits. The best we can do is delete our accounts, disinvest, and hope twitter burns to the ground.
It's better if we don't make CEOs responsible for fixing our social problems. We have to do that ourselves. They will follow along ("give the people what they want")
CEOs are a subset of "we," and are in positions where their decisions have impact disproportional to their numbers.
Which leads to an incredible amount of change aversion; if you have no idea what it is about your product that people like, you're naturally going to be terrified of changing anything, for fear that you might punch a hole in the wrong place and let all the magic leak out.
Mastodon seems fixated on emulating Twitter without questioning if there's anything worth keeping.
It’s really easy to bet that something is impossible. It sounds smart, because all of history confirms your theory.
But history is also chock full of people doing things that didn’t seem possible, so personally I think you’re making a very bad bet.
And I wonder why you are even doing it? What’s gained by trying to convince people that there are zero viable interventions in a specific corner of the solution space? Especially such a big corner as “all technical interventions”?
Then Gamergate happened and people started yelling about it, and then that grew into the alt-right and that got more yelling, and then Trump got elected and it’s just been so much yelling.
And now here I am mostly on Mastodon, where there’s next to no celebrities, brands, or other things to yell at, and it’s pretty nice.
People are on Twitter for the inane arguing, same as the people in the comment sections of political sites.
This sub-network seems to have a lot of overlap with the set of people who use their Twitter handle as a substitute for an email address—i.e. the people who want you to tweet at them if you want to collaborate with them on something. Which itself is vaguely overlapping the set of people who are "famous", but not celebrities—i.e. people who are well-known names in their own industries or hobbies.
I had assumed that Twitter was aware of the implications of its design for conversation and had decided that the controversy boost to engagement numbers was worth creating a toxic environment. For real, consider these two basic elements of Twitter's design. First, any given post has a low maximum length, so any time you want to say more than a sentence or two it needs to be spread over multiple posts (a "tweetstorm"). Second, Twitter has two separate features that let anyone pull any part of a series of posts out of its original context: retweeting and quote-tweeting.
I basically can't understand a thread on Twitter, so I've never signed up because who the hell wants to be part of that? I usually also don't go to Twitter to read stuff other people link to because I'm not going to be able to follow it. Forget boosting controversial stuff, I bet a lot of users post the way they do because they also don't understand what they're looking at.
Unfortunately the Twitter username (handle?) I chose happened to be the same as the name of a somewhat well-known RnB/Hip Hop video producer (who I had no knowledge of before I created the account).
I signed in a year or two later and found that I had a couple of hundred follow requests from various aspiring and up-and-coming rap artists. At that point I realised in all honesty that I probably had no real use for Twitter.
I don’t think Twitter understands threads on Twitter, and they never have. They built something over a decade ago, it took off for reasons they never fully could fathom, and they’ve been afraid ever since to futz with what for them has been a good thing.
I'm afraid the reality is probably that you just don't have the motivation to figure it out, for whatever reason. No mass-market product like Twitter could succeed if it was as confusing as you say it is.
There's also the fact that a subset of computer programmer types have low tolerance for all sorts of "noisy" things that the average person doesn't have a problem with.
This is very different from threaded models, but it's something that can be adapted to easily enough, same as how most people can talk within a group in a noisy bar, where there are multiple surrounding intelligible conversations. Like in a bar, it's easy to jump into another adjacent conversation spontaneously.
Meanwhile tweet can persist enabling asynchronous conversation, so it’s more like a very lightweight forum than IRC.
Edit: But the tree structure for reply is actually more similar to a HN thread with a less visible structure.
If you wanted to chat in a channel with 1000s of people (like twitter), the IRC model would be untenable.
In general, it's a good way for people to share thoughts and links to a diverse audience. Liking Twitter isn't a sign of foolishness. Among the social networks, it's not as gross and corporate as FB, or as superficial as Instagram.
Your dismissal of the reasons why people might like Twitter, the implicit claim that it's useless for sophisticated people like yourself, and the apparent desire to impose black and white dichotomies on the world risks making you into a candidate for the category of "just wanting to rant at somebody".
We know that HN has its own serious cultural problems, after all.
Chaos is a Ladder [0]
[0] https://www.thenarcissisticpersonality.com/narcissistic-chao...
I think it just takes a while for new people to get Twitter. Probably most people don't even know why Twitter is confusing initially because they are so used to it.
I built a Twitter client just for that, because I find Twitter threads hard to read (https://threader.app).
It turns threads into a single page so it’s easier to read, like an article. We are also working on a way to compile conversations with multiple users: https://threader.app/conversation/1123033196642201600/vpw88S...
But then I realized I had it backwards. There have always been people who find it fun to vent outrage, moral indignity, and condescension. They just got it from TV blowhards before.
Today, we have created tech that makes it easy and convenient. If you look at practically all social networks, they're essentially optimized for outrage gossip. The human part of that equation is much more difficult to change - as social primates, we have this moral outrage thing hardwired to some extent. But why do we deliberately encourage it?
(For profit, of course.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speakers%27_Corner
The medium is the message.
Either Twitter will do this or the future decentralized apps will do this naturally through micropayments of having to pay for compute through the network.
I see a distributed p2p database that costs money to interact with and anyone can build a client for it. Go ahead, build a client - maybe it's free, maybe it costs money because it uses the protocol really well and people like it the UX. Hell, maybe even the client has advertisements in it. Either way interacting with the actual content costs money and that will naturally bring in a balance of information. Right now we have information asymmetry exploited by advertising.
In modern times, people pay to use Slack. It'd be interesting to study the sociology of paid Slack groups (as compared to free Slack groups, or as compared to any other free-for-everyone group chat platform.)
I've always thought it'd be a cool idea to have a group chat platform where, rather than some admin owning the group and maybe paying, the group has a tip-jar and anyone/everyone in the group can contribute. (Twitch sort of works like this, but you're really donating to the channel owner, not to the group itself. In my hypothetical model, there is no channel owner; the group persists because at least some of the user-base want it to, and so pay for it to.)
There are plenty of forums and private servers (for video games) that are donation supported by the regulars. It's a struggle though.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Something_Awful
[1] https://secure.somethingawful.com/products/register.php
Not sure what the atmosphere is like these days, but the admins were always so constantly mad for no reason you couldn't even post in a thread next to them or they'd ban you. They have real bad irony poisoning.
The totally free ad-supported model is really the only one that has the potential to generate both the user growth and ARPU growth to create those 10x-1000x exits, and do so within a reasonable horizon for the fund that's investing in the company. If you start a service that costs money to the end user, you remove the addiction to engagement to drive ARPU, but you risk cratering your user growth, or at least set your growth on a scale that will be unimpressive at best for venture backers.
So platforms stay free and tolerate those community problems, because the user growth is attractive, and if you can make the ad dollars work, you can show good revenue potential and get that spicy multiple.
If Twitter had gotten people to stop yelling at each other earlier, there would be 2 more protestors outside soldier funerals chanting hateful and homophobic mantras. Keep that in mind while supporting an end to the yelling.
Now everything is so serious.