Ask HN: Finally have loose change and spare time, but no sense of purpose. Help.
24, programmer at BigCo for several years, and I'm lost.
I've socked away enough coins to maintain my current lifestyle for the next 10 years, longer if I scale back a few things. (Believe me, it's pretty easy to do considering that I've never had car, house, or girlfriend -- and I plan to keep it that way for the forseeable future.) I've also freed myself of most of my other obligations that previously consumed my evenings and weekends.
I should be excited about this but I'm not, and I don't know why.
What I do know is that my current situation is unsustainable for long. I'm sick of corporate America and all its bureaucratic shenaningans, where I'm only learning the wrong way to get things done. I want out.
But I don't know what's next. I'm not in shape to start a company because I don't have any sort of overarching passion that will keep me motivated no matter what, nor do I have any monetizable hobbies or interests. I also have serious doubts about my programming skill, let alone ability to run a business. Everything I've been interested in making already exists in a form better than I can ever do myself. (That ought to be a wonderful thing in itself, but my selfish ego demands that I personally make a difference somewhere.)
Traveling around the world is frequently suggested here. I like to travel, and have done a fair amount of it. But I can't shake the feeling that I'm running away from my problems and not confronting them.
I realize that I'm blessed, maybe even spoiled. I've won the genetic lottery by having loving parents who encouraged me to work hard and do well. I've won the geographic lottery by having the opportunity to live in the USA, especially California. I've won the timing lottery by entering college when competition was less fierce and scholarships were more plentiful, and by graduating into a healthier job market just before the economy crashed. Life has dealt me a very good hand, yet I feel like I'm not making good use of it.
I think I have a variant of Early 21st Century Syndrome (cf. http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/93yaq/anyone_else_here_feel_like_theyre_never_fully/c0bcp8m?context=1). I wouldn't say I'm suffering from depression or burnout right now, but I strongly suspect that if I just quit without a plan, I will be heading there. (Either that, or I'll end up wasting my time on video games and internet.)
I probably just need an attitude change. But that in itself just seems so hard...
76 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 146 ms ] threadDerek Sivers on "finding your passion": http://sivers.org/passion
By the way, have you already put in your 10 years of coding on projects that push at and stretch your programming ability? If not, you really have no justification to say you're not capable of being a good programmer, and just sounds to me like one of those things people say when they're having a down day.
Peter Norvig's "Teach Yourself Programming in 10 Years": http://norvig.com/21-days.html
Sure, sounds great, but is quitting really necessary for that? I did say that I do have spare time now, and although I'm not addicted to a paycheck, I don't think I can just leap into the abyss either.
Unfortunately, right now my "ground state" (as so eloquently described here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1536432) seems to be mindless worrying, and I think quitting my job will simply enable me to do that full-time.
By the way, have you already put in your 10 years of coding on projects that push at and stretch your programming ability? If not, you really have no justification in saying you're not capable of being a good programmer. http://norvig.com/21-days.html
I don't doubt that I'm capable, I just don't think I'm there yet. I've been programming for more than 10 years, but not all of it counts as deliberate practice.
Short answer: Yes.
Why are you so attached to having a full-time job? Is the point of life to just spend all of it working and accumulating cash? You're in a great position to grant yourself a sabbattical/mini-retirement/etc. I also have no idea what abyss you're worried about falling into; it sounds like you're already in one. Jobs are a commodity, lifetimes aren't.
Or you could look at it as a new job: you're going to be employed by yourself with the objective of reinventing yourself and learning to live. Your task is to spend 40 hours/week on moving toward self-actualization: learning to be independent, having a girlfriend, and finding your passions. (Edit: And spend time volunteering and making a difference in others' lives as people have suggested in this thread.)
Where in California are you? I know a couple of "hacker houses" in Berkeley and SF that are filled with interesting and passionate people. You could spend a couple months in one and immerse yourself in a fun, interesting, engaging environment.
Relevant: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1112823,00....
You should also check out the book "4 Hour Work Week". I don't subscribe to the literal idea of a 4 hour work week, but the life-optimization philosophy explained in it is inspirational and makes a lot of sense.
You also have prime location being in California, even if you think you are lacking in the programming abilities it wouldn't hurt to try and get a job doing that.
Again, I might just need an attitude change, or I'm wearing the wrong glasses.
It also seems you are self-deprecating. You must have some value - you were not paid for doing nothing!
But maybe what was found valuable in you by corporate america differs from what you define as a value.
Have you tried reading philosophy? It helped me. If philosophy is not your thing you can try more accessible literature. My biased suggestion would be Atlas Shrugged.
I would also suggest trying to define your life values (what's important for you?) and following that, defining your life goals (where do you want to make a chance?) - then it's "just" a matter of implementation.
Try lesswrong and transhumanist websites if that's your thing. Or anything else - it's your tastes that matters.
As many others pointed in the thread, anomie is best fought if you create your own meaning. To me, this meant defining my own values first.
Maybe I could be working on a startup that's more high profile and more likely to make me famous on HN and Techcrunch, but I prefer the more relaxed lifestyle.
You don't have to make the choice between living for your work or just being a mindless corporate drone. Work on something exciting and dynamic, and also have a life. It's possible.
Why don't you come work here? We need engineers.
Concrete examples? Volunteer, either near home or internationally (though don't get stuck in a 'paid' volunteer system, just pay for your own travel but don't get charged to work anywhere as a volunteer)
Working Holiday visa You can live and travel for a year of more, no visa worries. For example, go to Australia, hang out and get some exercise, go surfing, pick apples, then go see Indonesia, Thailand, Laos.. then when you get back to the States you'll be even more unbelievably spoiled, but you'll have an idea of what you want to do with your opportunity.
I'm sure others here could give more examples. When I was 24 I had already packed up and was just traveling, freelancing digitally as I needed, until something came along that was interesting enough to stay put for.
I'm afraid that I'll wind up like Antoine Roquentin from Sartre's Nausea -- a long world tour followed by disappointment and existential crisis.
If you don't try it, you definitely won't succeed.
However; you're 24 and you've never had a girlfriend? And you feel like there's something missing in your life? I don't think joining a startup or learning ten new programming languages is the solution to your problems...
EDIT: Let me just say that I'm in no shape to get into a relationship. I will just be dumping my problems on her and making her miserable instead.
I've done a lot of boneheaded things in my youth, and postponing romantic relationships to a later time probably would have resulted in me making better decisions when faced with the same situation. I'd like to think so, at least.
This is actually a very selfish thing to do, no matter how counter-intuitive that sounds.
Studies on human happiness have shown repeatedly that we are actually made happier by giving to others than by receiving things.
It doesn't really matter what you choose. Build houses with Habitat for Humanity, Try Volunteers for Peace and dig wells and build homes in the third world. http://www.vfp.org/ Try volunteering to help children with Unicef.
You'll find that physical work without the burden of worrying about things like "what's it all about" or "what's my passion" will make you happier, give you great experiences and memories, and introduce you to things about the world that could positively affect you for the rest of your life.
Forget startups, you're in a position to do what few people have the opportunity to do.
I have volunteered before, at community events and the food bank. It felt uncomfortable because I did indeed feel selfish doing those things.
It's reassuring to know that this is completely normal.
2. If you don't want to start a company, I would suggest investing in someone you believe in and can share their passion. Perhaps you can even mentor them given whatever skills you have.
3. How is your physical health? Are you in shape? If not, find a way to focus on that now... otherwise you certainly won't win that lottery.
4. Need more? I could seriously go on forever... :)
I think you mostly have existed and not actually lived. You should probably start by just gaining some independence and some outside extracurricular activities.
You should have a house/apartment, a car, a girlfriend, some hobbies. Lack of these things and the ability to live for 10 years on any amount you could have reasonably amassed as a 24 year old corporate programmer is most likely not a topic to brag on. This should be an indication that you need to expand your horizons.
I'm not bragging. You should be able to tell from what I've written that I'm not proud of what I've done in life so far.
Is it wrong for me to prioritize getting some real stuff done over having a car, house, or girlfriend? It's not like a gas-guzzling vehicle will make me any happier, and I find gardening distinctly unenjoyable. No comment yet on this relationship stuff.
Something that makes a difference in the lives of real people. In all honesty I don't know any more than that, but I have a hard time believing that it's any of those things you mentioned.
The best way to see what makes a difference in the lives of people is to get out and meet them.
A good start would be just gaining some independence for yourself. The world suddenly looks very different when you remove most of the safety nets and have to sink or swim wholly of your own resources.
I personally don't think you should be considering world-changing events right now. You should be looking towards simple things and expanding your own horizons. You can split the difference by volunteering at some local organizations and maybe joining some groups/clubs that seem at least mildly intriguing.
BTW, in my prior post I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were bragging.
Regarding the prioritization of cars, houses, and relationships....
I would say that owning a car is just what it appears. If it doesn't seem appealing, don't do it. Owning real estate, pretty similar. Moving out, maybe a little more subtle (i.e. the costs/benefits are less obvious to someone who hasn't done it yet), but not enormously more subtle.
But I would argue that girlfriend/relationship is not like these things. (Obviously I speak here for my own experience, and I claim that it's somewhat generalizable.) Relationships are rewarding in weird and surprising ways, and difficult in weird and confusing ways. Also, they require practice to maximize your benefits, so if you figure you're going to want this at some point, getting some low-pressure practice in might be prudent.
Get a Master's degree in Computer Science if you are doubting your programming skills. Take or Audit a bunch of weird classes (in and out of the CS branch) and see if anything there interests you. Drink up (now that you can afford quality beer) and get laid.
(Going to school may or may not be a great move... but not for this reason!)
Non-Profits notoriously have lousy technology and unfortunately the low pay can draw even worse IT people. So someone who has the skills to make it in the private sector can make a big difference.
At this point in my life I can point to literally thousands of children who are at least a tiny bit better off because I was here and that's worth a lot to me. If you think it would be for you too than it's an option I'd check out.
1. Find someone who needs help.
2. Help them.
That's it. It's not about you and your skills and your intelligence and your blessings and your depression and your inner psychology etc. etc. etc. It's about others.
They may need help in an area you're already familiar with, but maybe not. Either way, you'll learn something new, they'll get where they need to be, and your situation will profoundly morph into something else.
The sooner you start helping someone else, the sooner you will wonder how you could have ever posted this. A hundred ideas will come your way when you least expect them, along with the energy to do something about them. You will find that there's lots to be done and you're the perfect person to do them. You'll have a different problem then. You'll need help getting all of it done. So you'll be making a very different post to hn. I'm looking forward to that one.
Perhaps you will want to help people less fortunate than yourself. Perhaps you'll want to help people like yourself because you discover that you are actually less fortunate in some other sense.
At the very worse, don't waste your life on video games and internet, unless you're going to create a video game that might need to be online.
I had an even longer-winded reply, but it basically boils down to the 2 steps from edw519.
"Better" is subjective and based on multiple variables. IMHO Ferrari makes better cars than Ford but Ford sells plenty of cars. I think Reddit is better than Digg, but plenty of people disagree.
Be careful not to fall into a trap of seeing things as black and white. There's a lot of fun and money in the grays ;-)
The reason for this advice is because you said "I'm sick of corporate America and all its bureaucratic shenaningans, where I'm only learning the wrong way to get things done. I want out." and you also said you didn't have any ideas for new products or interest in starting your own company. So move to a place where everything is different and that should be sufficient challenge to keep you interested in life. Bureaucracy might be the same, but it's going to be a different kind of bureaucracy.
I also strongly recommend you find a girl with the exact opposite personality as you. If you are introverted, she should be extroverted. If you are analytical and cautious, she should be free spirited. There are actually studies that have shown the exact opposite Myers-Briggs personality type is an ideal match since you'll complement each other very well as a unit, creating a balanced unit facing the world. So if you are a INTJ programmer she should be a ESFP party girl. You might say gosh but we have nothing in common, I can't relate to her way of thinking at all. And it turns out that's exactly what is best. Rather than stay at home surfing the net or playing video games or whatever she'll drag you out to parties or art openings where you'll meet some ambassador or Nobel Prize winner or what not.
As a practical matter, it seems to me that an INTJ would have a hard time meeting an ESFP since they would not enjoy the same activities and would not cross paths too often.
It's very interesting stuff and it seems to me like it's onto something, but it's still pretty fringe, and has not been convincingly statistically validated yet. I'm very interested in formalizing these notions and subjecting them to statistically well-founded empirical tests. Right now there's a lot of enthusiasm for Socionics in Russia, but not much work in the Western world. Email or IM me if interested in chatting about this.
Also, since it's so new, beware of crackpottery... there's some people who claim absurd things like being able to determine someone's dominant Socionic type just by seeing a photograph.
For relationships the results are sorted not by the most common pairings, but the most successful.
As far as INTJ meeting ESFP, it does happen. People meet in bars, get references from others, meet in church. Perhaps INTJ is tutoring math to ESFP who is studying to be an elementary school teacher and they start dating.
In a relationship this is a pretty good entrepreneurial husband/wife pairing as well. Husband makes the product, wife does sales and marketing (ESFP specialty) and finds out from customers what they really need. ESFP in this case will help him understand and interface with the bureaucratic mentality, and also provide a front face and extremely enthusiastic explanations of his incredible value to the company he works for, or the investors who are funding him, or whatever he is up to. She'll also naturally bring him into contact with these investors, partners, or mentors and massively leverage his life opportunities, which will lead to a lot of success and happiness.
The world is not made for INTJ or INTP and does not understand either of them. The right partner can and will completely solve this problem.
With opposite pairings, there is no friction or stress from one trying to change the other because they are so different that sort of change is thought impossible, it would be like an elephant trying to change a giraffe into an elephant.
http://www.capt.org/research/couple-mbti.htm
Liberty's dissertation on attitude-antagonistic coupling covers his research with couples who have the worst-scenario matching, an example of which would be INFJ and ENFP getting together. These pairings will generally make each other completely miserable.
Want to move to the Netherlands? As a U.S. citizen apply to the Friendship Program, prove you can support yourself for 5 years and get residency.
Want to move to Mexico? Show them you have $1000 in your account every month and get residency.
Want to spend a year in Australia, New Zealand? Working holiday visa for US citizen under 30. (more options if you're not from the U.S.).
Want to spend a year or more in Europe? Apply for a research or arts visa.
Some people do not live their lives looking for a wife (or husband in my case) and to suggest to a 24 year old that he find the perfect fit as if he were buying a Filipino wife from a catalog who also likes dogs and long walks on the beach is irresponsible.
(Oh, and want to move to the U.S.? Good luck doing that as easily as any of the ways mentioned above)
Since he will be moving to another culture this means his most available girlfriends will be someone overseas. Should this lead to marriage it then becomes a good way to remain in the culture.
It has nothing to do with mail order brides or race betrayal or whatever you are freaking out about. It has to do with a complete package of advice for this one person and his circumstance. It is not meant to apply to you or to people in general.
+1, I like to travel too, and perhaps spending a month trotting around Europe would be an eye-opening experience, but I always think you'd get back home and think "well... now what?". Similar to the feeling I get when I finish watching a movie - enjoyable for the duration, but no real lasting benefit.
I can't speak for you, but I can share my ideas about what I would do in that position (I am a 27 year old developer with a good education and work experience):
Take some taught courses to get my weaknesses up to scratch - for me it's Mathematics and Motivation. I don't know how the second can be fixed but the first is easy.
Then I would specialise in my interest areas - for me it's machine learning in various forms. Probably I'd do a PhD.
I'd seek to network a lot better than I have in the past. I have friends working for very exciting companies, and I think if we all got together something amazing could happen, but they're mostly in London and I'm not. I'd fix that too.
So in summary, my plan would be to get my knowledge and skills up to speed, and then arrange my life to coincide with like-minded individuals as much as possible.
Don't go home after work - join a gym, go bicycling, walk thru the city till it gets dark.
If you're used to go to bed early - stay up late and spend the next day at the office trying not to fall asleep.
If you don't hang out during the weekends - call some of your friends and get really wasted.
etc.
The point is getting new perspectives on life, new experiences will help you find out what you really want and need.
It's natural that you're scared of the vacuum. A good friend of mine, a very nice and moral person, told me that if he didn't believe in God there would be nothing stopping him from stealing, lying, killing, and raping as much as he could get away with. He was completely wrong, of course. Your worry that in the absence of obligations you will waste your time and not do anything worthwhile is wrong in the same way.
The problem is that I have evidence to the contrary. I have already started wasting time and not doing anything worthwhile.
In any case, I don't see myself doing anything other than programming for a career, though I ought to take some time to explore as well.
Collapsing is a natural reaction to the removal of pressure. You have spent a long time trying to do work that you didn't want to do. The corporate experience trains you to believe that you are naturally lazy, because you spend all day in agonized revulsion against the productive, useful work you are asked to do. The secret is that just because you do not want to do certain work for certain people does not mean you are lazy.
Other people have been in control of your productivity for a long time, and your only freedom was to resist, shut down, and be lazy. You need to indulge that until you feel completely reassured that you are free and in control of your own life. Then your own tendencies will come out, and I guarantee you that what little I know about you from your question (specifically, that you have skills that took a lot of time and unwitting dedication to develop, and that you worry about what you might or might not accomplish) is enough to know that you will be happiest doing productive work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4&feature=playe...
You essentially have come to the realization that the things you have been lead to believe (career, wealth, social status, possessions) are not what will make you happy. This realization can go down a dark path of depression if you're not careful, so be careful and stay level headed. Definitely take time off, pursue interests you never had time for and completely stop worrying about the future. That's the important part, to stop thinking there's some sort of end goal that you're working toward.
If I read this right, you're struggling to feel needed. I know this isn't exactly the same thing as the need to make a difference in the world, but it seems close enough to be actionable.
I say find some people who truly need you and do your best to help them. Is that teaching? Is that fixing their situation? Is that creating a new idea or product? This will take some exploration, but it has to be worth it, right?
And, none of us are perfect. I put the same pressure on myself (I've been programming since 7th grade, and I feel the exact same way about my questionable programming skills). But, we're all still learning, and I'm betting you're smart enough to make a difference in at least one person's life. Then you can extrapolate from there.
You're looking at your life and groaning about the lack of passion and interest in the things around you.
Everything you find is 'good enough'. Damnit man! Get dissatisfied!
You've got a healthy dose of skepticism, which is highly underrated, now you need to develop your ability to find issues, flaws and opportunities in what is around you. Products, services, the way things are done. They may be done better than you could do them yourself, but are they done the best they ever will be? How would you improve them, then learn how to build it yourself and that makes a better product.
One of the interesting things I've found about passion is that in some ways, it can often be found lurking within you and just needs to be discovered and awakened.
I think one thing shared by all passionate people is that they rarely seem passionate about something that involves only them. It is in the service of others that most people find their passion. As an example, look at the Charlie Rose interview with Andrew Mason of Groupon http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/10/groupon-masin-charlie-rose/ Mason talks about what Groupon does for businesses, what it does for people. It isn't about what it does for him. FourSquare is somewhat useless, but Crowley talks about how people are going to the gym more often and getting healthier because they use it. It is often these purposes which lurk beneath the surface where the passion can come from.
You'll be happier for having done it.
When I was near your age a dear friend of mine, Regina Riley, was kind enough to share an important bit of wisdom; When you say, "I'm Bored," you are actually saying, "I'm Boring."
For many people, it can be a very harsh revelation.
The additional difficult revelation is; fascinating people are fascinated, and fascination is a choice.
An alternate, but equally accurate, way to phrase it is; interesting people are interested, and interest is a choice.
You must choose to be interested. You must choose to be fascinated. It might be a thing, or a field, or a topic, or even another person. Your choice is an investment, and every investment has a price. It may or may not be the very best investment you could make, but it is guaranteed to pay off in some way.
In taking the time to type this, I chose to have an interest in you as a fellow human being, and I made an investment at a higher price than most must pay to post an opinion on a forum. I could flatter myself with the effort I've put forth to type this. I could flatter myself with believing I spotted the root of your problem. I could flatter myself with making a difference in your life by sharing something that was shared with me.
I don't need self-important flattery, and I honestly have no clue if this will be helpful to you in any way. It may have been a poor choice of investments.
None the less, I'm happily content with just knowing I tried my best to be interested and invested in helping another human being. I decided to be interesting. Can you say the same?
The really scary thing is that I've noticed I'm having an easier time acknowledging that I'm boring than taking action to change that. I'm still trying to fight the idea that I might be fundamentally lazy.
But thank you for your support! It will be a difficult journey for me as well.