Ask HN: Should I quit my job?

192 points by manceraio ↗ HN
I'm working for a German automobile corporate in Spain as a project leader. I'm 29, I've studied electronic engineering, I don't have kids, and I'm not married. What I do at my current job all day is emails, spreadsheets, power points, and some electronic testing. I've been working there for already five years, and I've been climbing the ladder as much as I managed. I also work on the afternoons on a side project that is making close to $100/m

However, my day job is draining all my energy in a way that I am grumpy from Sunday night to Saturday morning. I wake up at 6:20, commute 45 minutes, work 8h, commute 45 minutes, arrive home at 18:00 and then I try to squeeze time for my side project, going to the gym, making groceries, hang out with my gf, etc. I probably push around 10h/week to the project. The worst part of it is getting home exhausted in a way that it's impossible for me to do any work done. It makes me feel miserable, depressed, and tied. I could create more value just by myself. During my office hours, my energy levels are, and the atmosphere at work is pleasant. Also, my salary is above the Spanish average, but nothing special, my uni friends are also making similar numbers.

My gut is telling me to quit my job and work for my products. I have enough savings to survive for five years. I don't think about going nomad or any of these hippie trends. I'm focused on building a business and feel accomplished by something I've done with my hands.

My biggest fears are: - To not stick to a schedule/routine once I am solo. - People's and family opinion. - Failing and losing motivation.

Should I quit my job and work on my stuff or search for another position that would give more motivation?

129 comments

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Finding another position that is just less draining doesn't further your goal to build your own products. If your key goal is to build and sell your own products you have to look for ways to do that and not just the next less draining "job".

You could instead try and move to a consulting role with the company where you can control your hours and do more off-site. Seeing as you said a German auto, that may not be so easy to do. The other option is stay in your day job temporarily while you find a couple of consulting gigs (even PM type work or whatever you can) where you can basically have part time work and you know you'll have money coming through the door, but that will enforce some discipline on your days. Then use the time you have to build out your own products and get it moving. Also, the part time work lets you interact with other professionals and keeps you a little more engaged then you might otherwise get if you just solo out immediately, which is helpful.

My 2 cents, if you have any concerns about whether you can stay disciplined to make it work, don't just jump and start living off savings. Do one step towards being 100% on your own, but do it with some part time work which forces some structure. This will help you transition and let you figure out how you work best, and how to motivate yourself. I have seen this is where a lot of super capable people make their mistake initially. Having a little extra structure at first where you must deliver something for someone every week etc will help you. Also, the income you are taking in is a way to help offset just living off your savings since that can also be a scary thing to do, even if you have many years saved up already. When you only see your account getting smaller it is hard not to panic a little.

Did you consider working part time on your day job? 4 or 3 days a week.
I’ve done the “jump” two years ago.

My life is different now. There is much less stability, constant fear of not making enough money to pay for my expenses, my retirement, etc... also, I’ve never been so tired in my whole life.

Having said that, I feel _happier_ than when I had stability in my previous draining day job. I also don’t have a single drop of regret.

If you have something work wise that you love, just make the jump. You’ll survive and learn a lot.

"You’ll survive and learn a lot."

That's textbook survivorship bias right there.

You are probably right, but maintaining a day job is not a walk in the park either. You have to devote a lot of time and energy into it, and things might suddenly turn against you and you may find yourself in a tough spot.
I often think about that. There are no guarantees for job safety as an employee, there is only the fact that you work within a statistical ensemble of other people having a very similar job and can use them to tell how well you're doing.

If you find paid work on your own, you learn different skills that could prove to be better for survival, since you're less dependent on an external entity.

Given this;

>It makes me feel miserable, depressed, and tied.

And this;

>I have enough savings to survive for five years.

I'd say leave immediately.

No - keep a job, but possibly change jobs [no idea other alternatives you have]. Regarding your side project: Use some of your income to pay a freelancer to grow the business in areas you cannot. Growing from $100/month - $5000 month, etc will take a while to figure out. Spend lots of free time doing that - but while you have income. Then turn on the gas. The stress of no income happens much faster than you'd think.
Spaniard here. If you live in Madrid/Barcelona, try to find a new position in a smaller city. I don't see myself living there.

In my opinion, if you are losing your motivation, maybe your guts are not the best advice you should follow. I always try to take risky decisions when I feel comfortable with the current situation.

Try to negotiate to change to a part-time position at the same company you're at right now. Or start looking for a different job elsewhere which will give you part-time hours, which will free up more time for you to work on your side project while also having a stable supply of income for yourself/your gf.

In the mean time, I believe you need to revamp your diet and keep up with your gym activities. If you eat well and keep working out, you may become strong enough to handle this current workload and still be able to work on your project.

I wish you the best.

If it’s what you desire, then yes, you should quit.

I’ve done it before and it’s a great experience. 100% worth it. Follow your dreams.

Just don’t delude yourself into thinking you will grow your side project into a full time income. You may. But don’t count on it.

Consider taking as long of a vacation / sabbatical as you are able to simulate what leaving might be like and using that time to see how well you are able to stick to a schedule / routine, be internally motivated, etc. It of course won't be quite the same as if you actually leave, e.g. you may be less motivated than if you actually quit since you know you still have the job to come back to, but should still provide some useful info re: your concerns.
I think the first thing is to establish why your current job is making you so miserable and exhausted, and what you can do to organise your day so that you are not left wrung out at the end of the day. Optimising your time and energy is a better option than quitting a job and dipping into your savings. Once you’ve worked that our THEN you can think about whether to quit your job. Because the problems you are suffering now are unlikely to go away if you make such a major and fundamental change in your life. They might - but they might get much worse.

Working with a therapist or a coach might help you unblock whatever is holding you back and identify how to increase your energy and reduce frustration. That would be a better use of your savings - right now - than quitting your job.

You also don’t say whether you have any experience on the business side of things. A side project supported by a stable job is very different to something being your primary source of income.

I’m not saying don’t take the jump - but get everything lined up and address the disorder first.

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You'll probably hear advice that makes silent assumptions about personality types. I'm the type that can't have a cushy FT job while also building my own business. Hasn't worked. It sounds great in theory, but I make far less real progress on the business than I think I do. I also think having a cushy full-time job inherently steers you towards "taking it easy" and distracting yourself with "lifestyle" things, relatively random hobbies, etc.

Quitting my job to pursue my own project, with a few years of runway, massively accelerated the development of my project, accelerated my rate of learning - ideal for staying employable, while basically subconsciously removing "lifestyle" distractions that come with making > 200k/year.

So yeah, chalk it up to personality type, but if you're serious about building your own business, the best advice, since you have the runway, might be to quit your job as soon as you can.

> You'll probably hear advice that makes silent assumptions about personality type

Interesting. Why kind of personality type do you have?

Go with your gut. There are jobs out there that don't force you to be that miserable. If you really have enough funds for 5 years(most people overestimate), it sounds like you can take a year off or more to work on projects. If you aren't married and don't have kids, then what are you working so hard for? Money? But you're trading years of your life and your longevity for it.
If you have five year's worth of savings it's a no-brainer. Give it six months and then get back to employment if you don't succeed by then. Then work for anther 12 months and repeat the process if you have a new project.

As long as you are strict with yourself in only giving it 6 months, it should be fine. Tell everyone you know that this is your plan. If you don't get any traction within six months it's very unlikely that it makes sense to drag it out longer. Just cut your losses and move on.

6 months. General advice is always n months, however that advice is so generic as to be meaningless.
Quit, you already know you want too and you know how it is affecting you... the question is what you want to do instead and you already know what you want to try.
You're mixing issues a bit.

If your current work is, as they say, "soul crushing"... you should invest some of your personal time to leaving that job. This is an independent decision of what you want to do/should do afterward: yes, you can quit/work on your own stuff.... but there are other possibly good outcomes that include the "quit" part, but something other than bootstrapping a business.

As for starting your own business, I found it hard to bootstrap something meaningful without being full time on it... so that part of what you're talking about does make sense. But you need to be ready to burn cash for an extended period, consider: 1) how long it will take to get your product/service into something making reliable income (meaning enough to cover business expenses, your expenses, as well as enough to bank some cash so that you can ride out the hard times); 2) if things don't work out, you still will need cash to burn while you look for new employment... or more seriously risk having to take the first thing that comes along and being, perhaps, in a worse position than you are now. Not having dependents is helpful, but you have your own needs that, no matter how meager, must be accounted for.

I did the bootstrapping thing myself, but I was lucky in a sense. I had run out of runway cash and had to take a job quick: the job I took saw my bootstrapping effort as a plus, and after I was there for a few years, I was allowed to moonlight on my original business to get it stable... and later when I left that firm, they were a client for while. (my business has been self-sustaining for about 7 years now) Don't count on that kind of luck, though, and to that point. If you don't have the cash (or access to it)... get out of your current job, but almost certainly get another.

As for people's / family's opinion: meh... you need to have sufficient confidence and independence to pull off a bootstrapping project. If you second-hand your self-worth to the opinions of others: then you need to question how successful you are likely to be. Much of being an entrepreneur of any type is being able to see opportunities that others don't. If you rely on the opinion of others... well, you may see a contradiction in goals. None of this isn't to say that well qualified or well reasoned opinions shouldn't be listened to or taken seriously: they can give valuable perspective... but fearing those opinions in determining if your vision is legitimately right or wrong is probably going to put you on the wrong path. The only valid fear that comes to mind is if you intend to use those people/family as a safety net if you fail.... I would suggest planning and preparing so that you don't need to call in help should you fall.

Also, be aware that your business will take a life of its own. I was able to bootstrap and get stable because I did smaller consulting gigs across a lot of long term clients, but ultimately I wanted to build products. Well, great... now I have a good cash flow as my client base come to me with new projects and I have "hard times" buffer, but I have so many client obligations that I have trouble getting to product building part... which really needs to be full time. There are solutions to this, but they are not easy to pull off at my scale... I do well, but not so well as to staff up, for example.

I think others here have covered the stability vs satisfaction you might get by on quitting and just working on your own stuff.

However, beyond information people can give you, it still sounds like a very personal decision. For what it's worth, I'd recommend writing about it in a journal/diary. You really have to figure out what you feel about it, and I've found that writing really helps solidify muddled thoughts and feelings. Just get a blank page and write about it for half an hour. Do it on several different days across time and find out how you really feel about it.

I'd quit. Two of the better life decisions I ever made were quitting education/employment that wasn't making me happy, to free time for better things.

Also, in case you're not familiar already, I'd recommend spending some time reading a few posts at https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ - the aesthetic might seem a bit weird, and it's not a "one size fits all" topic, but there's some good food for thought. Maybe read it at work ;).

This will sound odd, but hear me out: assuming that whichever way you choose, it will be wrong, which would you choose? If you quit this job to pursue your side project, and that doesn't pan out, will you forever regret having given up this job? Or, if you don't quit this job, will you forever hate your career because part of you is wondering what would have happened if you just "went for it"?

Figure out which mistake would be less crushing, and do that one. If it happens to actually work out, great. If not, at least you won't be spending the rest of your life regretting.

By the way, for reasons I won't speculate on, this method (assume failure, which would you pick) turns out to be a pretty good way of picking the option more likely to succeed, actually. But assume you won't succeed no matter what, and use that scenario to decide which way to go.

That's a very interesting approach. Do you have more data/anectodes etc. on your point:

> By the way, for reasons I won't speculate on, this method (assume failure, which would you pick) turns out to be a pretty good way of picking the option more likely to succeed, actually.

I'm going to try to keep this one in mind for big decisions.

Anecdata: quit my job at age 29 to go back to get a Master's in EE, studying neural networks, in 1996. Quit my job in the semiconductor industry in 2004 to become a programmer at a university. Quit my job at the university in 2010 to go into the private sector. All three turned out to be the right decision, as far as I can tell, but in all three cases I was mostly motivated by knowing that if I did not, I would regret that more than I would regret quitting a position I was no longer interested in.

But, I wonder if it would still work well if, in the back of your mind, you were thinking "but it won't really fail, it always succeeds". You really do need to take seriously the idea that it will not work out, and only do it when you would still rather try it.

I really like the way you frame it: both choices are bound to be a mistake, so pick the one you can live with.
Wow! Sometimes it really is about asking the right questions!

This question seems to be the right question to ask, but whether it is or isn't, thanks for reminding me.

I'm going to add one anekdote fit thé author, but the parent comment is awesome.

Realise that 100$ / month of nothing. It's the income of a small blog and even my small side project earns me 500-600€/month consistently.

Then again, do what you will regret the least.

A product manager I've recently worked with had a similar approach. Don't ask: Why is X important. Always ask: Can I skip Y for X? Can I not do X to invest the same time to do Y?

That kind of thinking has kind of put a very big truck into my thought train in a lot of situations. Not doing things suddenly seems a lot more appealing.

And don't get me wrong. I'm an operator with legal and other non-functional requirements at heart. But there's still many things to ignore as much as possible.

That's a really interesting way to put it. I once remembered and applied a quote something like "if you could choose one thing to do if you were guaranteed to succeed, what would it be?" Luckily and paradoxically, both questions have the same answer for me.
I've also used the aversion to regret to make several big decisions. When I explain this to people, the reaction I sometimes get is pity. Having ones life dictated by the fear of regret seems repulsive to some people. I don't really understand that perspective myself, but it may be one to consider.
Living defensively may be good for one's chance of survival but is not that glamorous to tell. That should, as you correctly pointed out, be taken into account. What happens now when one's fear is ending up without having a life to talk about or not living fast enough? Joke aside, I think that, besides a fringe minority whose choices are dictated by kicks and thus subject itself to the high risk of natural (de)selection effect, most of us have lifes dictated by the self preservation instinct.
This sounds good, but it doesn't really work, at least not in the way you think it will.

There's no way you can imagine yourself in an unknown future. You can not estimate how much you will regret one thing or the other, because you don't know the situation you will be in. All the variables affecting you (economy, health, family situation) are constantly changing. You're not going to picture yourself as a homeless alcoholic who somehow is still really glad he built that app once and would do all it all over again.

The first bad thing that'll probably happen after he quits his job is that his girlfriend will leave him. Not necessarily immediately, but it'll be a strain on the relationship. Even though she will not admit it (perhaps because she isn't even aware of it), she is probably dating him because he is a guy that has a decent job, not some dreamer with a wacky business idea (unless maybe that's how she got to know him). Breakups can be really tough on men, why can negatively affect work and motivation. Not being the guy with the decent job, it will be tougher to find a new partner as well.

The second bad thing that will happen is the realization that "being your own boss" and "working on the stuff that is important to you" versus "showing up" and "collecting a paycheck" always sounds better when you're doing the latter. Doing the former is actually a lot of stressful work and you can not tell how it works on you until you have done it.

Lastly, living with regrets is not such a big deal. Who doesn't live with regrets? Whatever you do, you can rely on your brain coming up with rationalizations on why this-and-that just wasn't meant to be.

Having said all that, with "five years of savings" (more like two years, am I right?), doing a sabbatical just to try it out should be in the cards. There may not be a need to quit the job, many companies offer this. If after six months to a year you aren't on the right track, it probably isn't working out, but you will have learned a lot about yourself.

You seem to have an interesting story. I'd really like to learn about it if you don't mind sharing. Thanks
Well, I had a girlfriend who, when I decided to quit my job and go back to college, didn't want me to. I did it anyway, and sure enough, that relationship didn't last. I found another one in college, and married her. Later, when I wanted to quit my engineering job and start over as a programmer at a university, making 1/3 the money, she said "go for it".

Breakups suck, but sometimes it is a way to find out if you are with the right person (not that this is why you should do it of course).

Being a programmer at a university is still a "decent job", the difference in money isn't necessarily the crucial part. Instead, try telling her you want to quit so you can become an (eventually unsuccessful) painter and then observe how the relationship is working out some months down the line.

Also, what are the odds that a modern educated self-respecting independent woman would admit (even to herself) that she quit the relationship over that bit of money? If money really was the problem, she'd still have to come up with another reason to break up. Plus, it's not clear if you were already married, that's another threshold of course. Divorces are usually many years in the making.

Of course I'm not saying this is 100% exactly what will happen all of the time (though I've seen it happen shockingly often) and you will certainly find people whose dysfunctional relationships lasted a lifetime. That's called "survivorship bias".

I love your wording and the focus on the failure scenarios
Thanks. That makes me feel a lot better about a recent decision.
While probably echoed in other comments, I want to second the sentiment in this comment. Personally, I don’t believe there is a “happiness optimization” algorithm. Instead, what I believe, and mentor, is a “regret minimization” algorithm.

Think through the choices in front of you, which of them do you think you would regret more when you are on your death bed.

I will note, there is a risk to this approach I didn’t fully appreciate while younger: you don’t always know what in the future you will regret.

However, at least in my life, I have very few genuine regrets by following this advice.

Nicely said...thank you.
I am obviously in the minority, but I find this terrible advice. If you suffer a lot from 'regret' perhaps this approach makes sense.

But it completely sidesteps your inbuilt missile guidance system. A human being with a goal is a powerful thing. Just seeking to avoid the worst of 2 scenarios is a little sad.

Unless your goal is just to seek comfort, which is fine, but then be up front about that choice.

The idea is that the correct choice is the one that you will feel good about choosing, not matter how it turns out. Plenty of people who feel good about having done a startup, even though it turned out badly. But, plenty of other people who only did it because they thought it would make them rich and successful, and for any startup there is always a good chance of that not being the case. Most startups "fail", in the sense of they don't make anyone rich and eventually get shut down. So, only choose the startup if it's what you want to do, regardless of whether or not it will succeed.
Move closer to work so that your 45 minute one way commute is cut to 15 minutes. If you also shift your workout to your lunchtime you will have ~2 hours to work on your own projects. If no one at your work seems to notice your midday workout routine then start leaving an hour early as well.
Or is there a way for you to work from home some days? Then you can save on the commute and have more time for yourself.
I have no experience in building a business, but some years ago I was in a quite similar situation - working a draining, non-fulfilling job where I felt stuck.

Quitting and subsequently going on a 4 month motorcycle trip through Central Asia now feels like one of the best decisions of my life.

You are young, well educated, unhappy and working at the same company since you are 24. If your endeavor does not work out, you have will probably have a good chance of finding a decent new job. I believe that subjecting yourself to a new environment and new challenges from time to time reinvigorates your life and make you a happier person.