I seriously have to assume that this is Trump's classic playbook to throw off the news cycle from scrutiny of Robert Mueller's public statement and fire up his base over those damn foreigners, even though we ultimately pay those tariffs ourselves through higher prices on goods we buy.
You practically did, just now. My interpretation is that you recognize that this is in fact Trump making Mexico pay for the wall, but it pains you to admit that.
Tariffs are taxes on transactions. Like all other taxes on transactions (sales tax, VAT, excise tax, etc.) they are paid by both parties to the transaction, with the share being determined by price elasticity.
It doesn't matter which party hands over the cash for the tax. The price will rise or fall as required to ensure that the tax is effectively paid according to price elasticity.
You get to graph this out if you take an economics class or two. In case you don't want to take a class, I'm pretty sure there is a Khan Academy video of it.
For example, the Chinese have effectively been paying about 5/6 of the tariffs imposed on them. Since the tariff is implemented by having the buyer pay, the price of the goods goes down. (you might ask why the Chinese would reduce their price, but they face lower demand and fixed operating costs, and also consider why the previous price wasn't higher) If the tariff had been implemented by having the seller pay, the price of the goods would go up, but this would be smaller than the amount by which the price has gone down. In other words, the US tariffs have forced a price cut which absorbs about 5/6 of the costs.
In addition to the market effects, the collected tariff can replace other taxes. The US was funded on tariffs during its rise in the 19th century. Our government is now mostly funded from taxes on productivity, which of course discourages productivity. We can return to the strategy that we used prior to World War I. It worked. It has also worked for many other countries pulling themselves out of poverty, including China.
> A Congressional Research Service report in February found that the tariffs boosted washing machine prices by as much as 12%, compared to January 2018, before tariffs took effect.
> Steel and aluminum tariffs increased the price of steel products by nearly 9% last year,
So unless washing machines are somehow subject to a 72% tariff, and steel is somehow subject to a 54% tariff, no, the Chinese are not paying "5/6ths" of the costs.
There will be cases where the cost is borne 99% by one party or the other. Some products will go one way, and some will go the other way. Products also change in price for unrelated reasons.
Somebody with an ax to grind will pick the most extreme examples to favor one side. The reporter has not reported all examples.
Even with those examples though: 12% and 9% are a lot less than 25%. Clearly, the US buyers are not paying the full cost of the tariffs. That was my point. The portion will change constantly, and will be different for different products. The portion I gave was a all-products average from soon after the tariffs were imposed.
For consumers, the tariffs are frequently reduced further by the fact that the consumer price is not only composed of the wholesale price. The consumer buys from a provider with unchanged costs for advertising, labor, finance, and so on. For example, when I get a new air conditioner installed for $10,000, much of the price is local labor. It is only the importer that could possibly be exposed to the full percentage.
You seem to have a good grasp of this. Do you have any thoughts on the effects this will have?
If China is discounting their goods, and consumers are paying for the tariff as taxes, then there is additional strain on China's ability to compete, which might bring back industry here, but more likely to Mexico, which is now getting the same treatment.
US taxpayers are basically now paying a more efficient form of taxes, since it's a tax on behavior we want to reduce, and it's largely offloaded from the consumer by the Chinese price reduction.
On the other hand, I only like tariffs to offset anti-competitive tactics. Given a little time, government will get hooked on the revenue source and US manufacturers will get soft from having hobbled competition.
I think you see it pretty well. I share your concern about US industry getting soft, but overall I think bringing back industry is a worthwhile endeavor. The jobs are good. The ability to resist supply shocks (for example an embargo, such as when China cuts rare earth access) is important for national independence. The government will be hooked on one revenue source or another, and this is probably one of the better choices.
The US has been in denial of anti-competitive tactics. This has been a problem from day #1 with China. We always get promises of otherwise, and we always get the same anti-competitive tactics, and until recently we do nothing about it.
Mexico is other problems. Getting Mexico to care about the problems has been difficult. Perhaps this will get them to care.
Theres that, plus who could reasonably expect a nation to deal with a problem like this in such a short timeframe. If the US can't stop illegal immigrants after years of trying, how is Mexico going to do anything in a matter of weeks?
They only need to satisfy one man's opinion on whether they've done what they should.
I see a very different picture of why he does what he does. In this case, I think he's trying to pressure House Democrats into signing the USMCA, which would remove the tariff and give Pelosi the ability to claim she stopped him. If they don't, then he still meets his goals of renegotiating trade to reduce deficits.
He also isn't negotiating this in a vacuum. It sends a message to China and everyone else that deals will be renegotiated, whether they come to the table or not. One of his primary skills is forcing people into situations where if they try to ignore him, it hurts them greatly. He maintains his constant press coverage by saying something terrible about an issue he thinks he can win. He takes the hit and then fights his way up the resulting maelstrom.
Perhaps, but on the other hand, would anyone actually have confidence in him then sticking to what he says. Is there any actual point in negotiating with him?
Certainly. He's shown himself to be quite willing to listen. He postponed major Chinese tariffs on multiple occasions, referencing their good faith actions in negotiations. That was worth their time by itself. In the case of Mexico, he negotiated and signed on to the USMCA, which if Pelosi would pass it, would get them out of the current Tariff battle. By giving them collective bargaining and minimum wage, he would reduce their ability to undercut the US. He wants to be taken seriously as a negotiator. He'll gladly remove old agreements that are no longer in our best interest, but he'd be loath to remove his own accomplishments without strong reasons.
Oh come off. Forget parties, name anyone aside from Trump who would think slapping tariffs on Mexico would do anything to curb illegal immigration. Even if you're worried about this problem this is an idiotic solution.
I hope that Mexico retaliates by tariffs on the huge corporate farms in Texas owned by Mexicans that have out-competed and destroyed small farms back in Mexico.
Free trade is world wide leveling, and every developed country should have high import tariffs to protect their domestic farmers, workers and industry.
Trump gets it.
The high tariffs in the 1800s that made America great the first time were removed by US socialists who preferred progressive income taxes for government revenue. Ugh.
Here is hoping that Trump tariffs bring back American semiconductor manufacturing to Austin.
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[ 5.4 ms ] story [ 62.6 ms ] threadSad.
It doesn't matter which party hands over the cash for the tax. The price will rise or fall as required to ensure that the tax is effectively paid according to price elasticity.
You get to graph this out if you take an economics class or two. In case you don't want to take a class, I'm pretty sure there is a Khan Academy video of it.
For example, the Chinese have effectively been paying about 5/6 of the tariffs imposed on them. Since the tariff is implemented by having the buyer pay, the price of the goods goes down. (you might ask why the Chinese would reduce their price, but they face lower demand and fixed operating costs, and also consider why the previous price wasn't higher) If the tariff had been implemented by having the seller pay, the price of the goods would go up, but this would be smaller than the amount by which the price has gone down. In other words, the US tariffs have forced a price cut which absorbs about 5/6 of the costs.
In addition to the market effects, the collected tariff can replace other taxes. The US was funded on tariffs during its rise in the 19th century. Our government is now mostly funded from taxes on productivity, which of course discourages productivity. We can return to the strategy that we used prior to World War I. It worked. It has also worked for many other countries pulling themselves out of poverty, including China.
Khan Academy's page about it with the graphs:
https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/microec...
Numerous videos, including one from Khan Academy:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=tax+elasticity&t=canonical&iax=vid...
From https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-tariffs-e...
> A Congressional Research Service report in February found that the tariffs boosted washing machine prices by as much as 12%, compared to January 2018, before tariffs took effect.
> Steel and aluminum tariffs increased the price of steel products by nearly 9% last year,
So unless washing machines are somehow subject to a 72% tariff, and steel is somehow subject to a 54% tariff, no, the Chinese are not paying "5/6ths" of the costs.
There will be cases where the cost is borne 99% by one party or the other. Some products will go one way, and some will go the other way. Products also change in price for unrelated reasons.
Somebody with an ax to grind will pick the most extreme examples to favor one side. The reporter has not reported all examples.
Even with those examples though: 12% and 9% are a lot less than 25%. Clearly, the US buyers are not paying the full cost of the tariffs. That was my point. The portion will change constantly, and will be different for different products. The portion I gave was a all-products average from soon after the tariffs were imposed.
For consumers, the tariffs are frequently reduced further by the fact that the consumer price is not only composed of the wholesale price. The consumer buys from a provider with unchanged costs for advertising, labor, finance, and so on. For example, when I get a new air conditioner installed for $10,000, much of the price is local labor. It is only the importer that could possibly be exposed to the full percentage.
If China is discounting their goods, and consumers are paying for the tariff as taxes, then there is additional strain on China's ability to compete, which might bring back industry here, but more likely to Mexico, which is now getting the same treatment.
US taxpayers are basically now paying a more efficient form of taxes, since it's a tax on behavior we want to reduce, and it's largely offloaded from the consumer by the Chinese price reduction.
On the other hand, I only like tariffs to offset anti-competitive tactics. Given a little time, government will get hooked on the revenue source and US manufacturers will get soft from having hobbled competition.
The US has been in denial of anti-competitive tactics. This has been a problem from day #1 with China. We always get promises of otherwise, and we always get the same anti-competitive tactics, and until recently we do nothing about it.
Mexico is other problems. Getting Mexico to care about the problems has been difficult. Perhaps this will get them to care.
I see a very different picture of why he does what he does. In this case, I think he's trying to pressure House Democrats into signing the USMCA, which would remove the tariff and give Pelosi the ability to claim she stopped him. If they don't, then he still meets his goals of renegotiating trade to reduce deficits.
He also isn't negotiating this in a vacuum. It sends a message to China and everyone else that deals will be renegotiated, whether they come to the table or not. One of his primary skills is forcing people into situations where if they try to ignore him, it hurts them greatly. He maintains his constant press coverage by saying something terrible about an issue he thinks he can win. He takes the hit and then fights his way up the resulting maelstrom.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Free trade is world wide leveling, and every developed country should have high import tariffs to protect their domestic farmers, workers and industry.
Trump gets it.
The high tariffs in the 1800s that made America great the first time were removed by US socialists who preferred progressive income taxes for government revenue. Ugh.
Here is hoping that Trump tariffs bring back American semiconductor manufacturing to Austin.